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petertohen
Acolyte
Vietnam
1 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Jan 2018 : 10:50:47
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I'm writing a fic with a character who's Pseudo-Indian at the moment, and from what I can tell Durpar & Estagund are the Desi sort of areas, with maybe some smaller areas in the space towards Sempar et. all.
There's also the matter of the Gurs - based on the real life Roma, who seem to be depicted, as with their real life counterparts, as being quite Desi looking.
I'm also kind of interested if there are such thing as "untouchables" in the Realms. From what I can see it mainly happens to the Drow.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Elminster_Series
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2018 : 13:24:24
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| Off the top of my head, I'm not recalling any untouchable types -- not even all that much of a formalized caste system, anywhere, aside from the typical fantasy stuff of nobles, wealthy, and commoners. The Realms follows a lot of fantasy standards, with a major one being the pseudo-European medieval times setup. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7966 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2018 : 18:34:33
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Rogues, thieves, assassins, beggars, gypsies, itinerants, circus folk, etc. In most generic fantasy role-playing settings these people are already "outcasts" who operate outside normal society (and normal laws). Quite often they band together or form gangs, guilds, or unions with their own "underculture" in the shadows and fringes of the "cultured" classes.
Realmslore has been criticized before for perpetuating unsavoury stereotypes (like gypsies) and indeed for lumping all these "undesirables" in a common group of sorts. But remember that feudal/medieval societies are strongly class-centric, you are born into your station (royalty or nobility or serfdom or slavery or something in between), just as your parents were and your children will be, and opportunities for advancement are exceedingly rare. Those in high positions sometimes have need for those in low positions, especially for those in the very lowest positions, so a sort of "untouchable" caste exists in every social structure. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2018 : 21:58:19
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quote:
Originally posted by petertohen
I'm writing a fic with a character who's Pseudo-Indian at the moment, and from what I can tell Durpar & Estagund are the Desi sort of areas, with maybe some smaller areas in the space towards Sempar et. all.
There's also the matter of the Gurs - based on the real life Roma, who seem to be depicted, as with their real life counterparts, as being quite Desi looking.
I'm also kind of interested if there are such thing as "untouchables" in the Realms. From what I can see it mainly happens to the Drow.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Elminster_Series
I believe there is a region in the Kara-Tur boxed set that outlines several places south of Tu-Lung that are "Indian" in character.
My Kara-Tur Boxed Set is a "lost tome" to me however; so I can't even look at it to find the reference for you.
EDIT: bought the PDF and found this pretty quickly:
quote:
Kompoa
In Kompoa, the unwieldy skins of elephants and hip
popatami are turned into useful leather goods. The
tanning and working techniques are unique; the
goods make excellent armor and bring a high price as
export items.
It is hard to believe that Kompoans are foolhardy
enough to slay the elephant, sacred to Indra, for its
skin. It is only a matter of time before the goddess
destroys this town, Meanwhile, they grow rich on
their sinful acts.
Directly speaking about Indra there.
quote:
Kuong Kingdom
The Kuong Kingdom is ruled with unquestioned
authority by the Priest-King Vishnan VII.
Perhaps the Kingdom of Kuong is Indian influenced...Vishnan at LEAST hints at that...
Then this specifically mentions castes:
quote:
Kuong
The Kuong is the southern jungle country of this
region. The heaviest jungle in all of Malatra is found in
the coastal strip south of the Dwai River, and stretches
to and beyond the southern Himasla Mountains. Farther
inland, on either side of the Kunong River basin,
the jungle is of medium density, and extends to the
west along the T#146;u Lung border. As in the Laothan, the
underlying terrain consists of steep ridges and hills.
To the south, high-elevation hill country feeds the
Kunong River and delineates the southern boundary
of the Kuong.
The folk of the Kuong are racially akin to the Purang
hill tribes. Like them they are brown-skinned, roundeyed,
and have wavy black hair Their language comes
from a different linguistic stock, and is distinct from the
other tongues spoken in Kara-Tur. Even in dress and
temperament, the Kuong people differ from their neighbors.
Their clothes are light silks and gauzy tissues; both
men and women wear sarongs, billowing trousers of
bright colors, and jewelry of gold and silver. A hospitable,
industrious folk, the Kuong are notably more fatalistic
than others of the Malatra. They are obedient to
authority and unquestioning of the heirarchy and caste
system to which they are born.
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The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 16 Jan 2018 22:09:18 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2018 : 22:24:46
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I think "Malatra" is modeled heavily on India...so I'd look into that material for sure.
Several mentions of Indra and Yama... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2018 : 03:41:52
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Yeah, they even use the Vedic gods down in southern Kara-Tur.
As part of the Utter East project I am working on, I am placing Mahasarpa (3e 'floating canon') just NE of Zakhara, in the region of Tempat larang, aand connecting all that lore together. I get a very 'Hindu Kush' vibe from the Larang Valleys there, and those would be just west of Malatra (where the Vedics are canonically placed).
You may be able to find the Mahasarpa Web Enhancement still available somewhere - it was a free thing that went with 3e's OA.
EDIT:
The Malatra setting was known as The Living Jungle, and it was around in either early 3e or late 2e - I forget which. Almost nothing can be found about it anymore - that was all handled by the RPGA and a lot of it was in old Polyhedron magazines.
EDIT2:
In fact, that's just going to throw you off. TLJ setting made no mention of the Vedic gods - it was its own thing (within Malatra, but weirdly, not really part of it). The Malatra you need to know about is just called the Jungle Lands in the Kara-Tur boxed set. Oh, and Yama identifies as female in the Realms, IIRC.
EDIT3:
Uh-DOH! And how can I forget the Vanesci Hamlet within the Utter East? That's technically WITHIN Faerūn even! The 'Desi' type people in that region (and there is quite a bit of evidence that ethnicity is spread all throughout the Utter East) migrated there from the east, through the Yehimal Mountains (through the 'fabled Land of Landarma'), and are known as 'Mar'.
Semphar is more Persian, BTW (related, I know, but not precisely what you were looking for). The 'Gur' are more like Gypsies, so yeah, of a similar stock to Indo-Europeans.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Jan 2018 19:26:42 |
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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe
Australia
401 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2018 : 09:48:33
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The Gurs are strongly based on the idea of "Gypsies", that is, Roma or Irish Travellers. However, in the Realms they're associated with the Gur tribe of the Hordelands, so they're more like Mongols or Siberians, by way of Rashemen.
In Kara-Tur, Malatra, or the Jungle Lands, seems to be closer to South-East Asia than India, with the three nations loosely inspired by Burma, Thai, and Khmer cultures and languages. Away to the west, the Island Kingdoms are somewhat like Indonesia, the Philippines, New Guinea, and so on, again fairly loosely based on their cultures and languages. Indian and South-East Asian elements also appear through southern Kara-Tur, such as in Petan and the many valleys of the Shao Mountains. There don't seem to be any one-to-one imitations or correspondences as in other Kara-Turan realms, however, just more generic or fantastical legendary versions of such places.
The Utter East has some Indian and South-East Asian elements, with an Asian-like Mar people but under Ffolk and Northman rule, so it's a bit of a grab-bag. It's weird and complicated. The Vanesci Hamlet is just a teeny European fantasy village appearing in the Blood & Magic PC game.
The Shining Lands of Durpar, Var, and Estagund might have some Indianesque aspects and sounds, but they seem more distinctly their own unique things. Ulgarth is presented as a misplaced European fantasy kingdom, yet it produced the distinctly Buddhist-like Padhran faith, suggesting an Indian-like past.
The Hindu deities appear as the Lords of Creation in the Jungle Lands; Yama is still male, it's Indra who became female.
They came from somewhere to the southwest outside Kara-Tur, hence we've hypothesised a more solidly Indian realm in the little-known Sempadan Forest region between the three continents of Faerun, Kara-Tur, and Zakhara, which spread its culture across southern Kara-Tur, to the Utter East, and beyond. The Mahasarpa setting is a useful stand-in for it.
Many of the Kara-Turan realms (probably too many) have caste or hard class systems, though I don't think any have a real untouchable caste. |
BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11689 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2018 : 19:24:46
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Yeah, your best bet would probably be making your character Mar, from the Utter East.
The Malatra material is confusing, because the stuff from the K-T box and the stuff from LJ have nothing to do with each, which just makes it a bit of a mess. Its also improperly placed in the FRIA maps. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Jan 2018 03:39:10 |
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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe
Australia
401 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2018 : 03:37:27
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Thanks for linking that site, sleyvas! So, that's the Living Jungle Malatra.
Hmm, yeah, apart from all being called "Malatra", there's no relationship between the Living Jungle material and the Jungle Lands presented in the KTCS.
But that seems fair: the whole of southern Kara-Tur is one
vast jungle with very little detail. The KTCS Volume II details Laothan, Kuong, and the Purang, which all lie in the northeast of that jungle area. Kara-Tur material also briefly mentions the Warring States, Petan, and other minor countries just to the south of T'u Lung and Tabot, indicating it didn't intend to cover it all. That still leaves a huge undetailed area to the south. The 1st-edition Oriental Adventures mentions an ancient empire of snake people, maybe yuan-ti, down there, but they're never mentioned again in KT sources.
The Living Jungle campaign, meanwhile, seems to be set entirely on the "Malatran Plateau", which is surely a distinct location within Malatra. I think its a neighbouring area, southwest of Laothan, Kuong, and the Purang; south of the Warring States and Petan, east of the Sempadan Forest and Tempat Larang, somewhere in that undetailed area. Maybe the big bare patch north of the Himasla Mountains, maybe much wider. Meanwhile, Living Jungle is the only place where the yuan-ti get a look in.
So the two Malatras seem to sit side by side rather comfortably, without contradicting at all (as far as I can tell by skimming, anyway). |
BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2018 : 03:53:38
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Its also HUGE - way bigger than they made it in the FRIA. I put it down in Dweepam (that jungle area that trails off the southern edge of the K-T maps), or rather, on the border of Dweepam (that way, its still technically 'Malatra' - the plateau itself acts like a border. The region that the malatra section of the K-T box talks about is all along the southern edge of the map, but whoever did the K-T maps just put the name 'Malatra' over on the eastern edge, and then when the FRIA guys came along, they were like, "Okay, thats Malatra - we'll plop it down there", which is just ALL WRONG.
Its fits snugly inside all those mountains ranges directly south, and I just say that from the outside jungle area, it just looks like mountains, when in fact, thats the plateau they are looking at. The other Malatrans have no idea it a vast plateau - they just think its a huge, solid mountain range like the Yehimals (or a bunch of smaller ranges, like it shows on the K-T Trail maps, which is just a misconception). Plus, there is some sort of ancient magic that makes people forget its even there (hence, cartographers drawing in those mountain ranges all over the place, which is just the HUGE escarpment). You can kind of see where I placed it on this old map of mine (really a pastiche of several maps) - you can sort of see a big circular area within the large jungle region to the south. I don't have a better one, unfortunately, because I no longer have my original files. I've also moved Mahasarapa way to the west of where I have it there; its a MUCH better fit now. Just leave all that jungle there 'primeval jungle' as its meant to be.
Ya know, if I just finish and extend my continental map a little further, we'd be able to see it again. I really need to get back to that. SO many maps, so little time... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Jan 2018 03:55:08 |
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Pseudo-Indian
