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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Nov 2017 : 10:11:28
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Hi all, back from a break with a query re: the noble houses of the City of Splendors. The main swing of the question is: when was the last pre-Spellplague noble house of Waterdeep ennobled?
Ed, here at the Keep and in Elminster's Forgotten Realms, states that the most recent noble house to ascend (pre-Spellplague) was the Phulls and Zulpairs in 1254 DR. If this is the case, all the noble houses were solidified before the death of Ahghairon in 1256 DR.
However, in the 2005 Waterdeep sourcebook by Eric Boyd, it's stated that the Adarbrents became a noble house in 1317. The Noble Houses supplement to that book in fact has no less than 17 houses arising post-Ahghairon, including Phull and Zulpair in 1310 - a fact directly contradicted by Ed.
Has anyone tried to reason out these conflicting points? Is there anything I'm missing to this story?
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Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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AJA
Senior Scribe
USA
747 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2017 : 00:45:56
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The official/accepted line has always been that the material with the most recent publishing date trumps older publications, so that would make EGP: Elminster's Forgotten Realms (published 2012) the correct/canon version. It's is also an almost word-for-word reprint of what was written on these boards.
Well, except for one crucial exception: the Candlekeep.com version includes the following passage: "My records tell me that the Phull and Zulpair families were the last to be ennobled..." If you want to use the old "unreliable narrator" excuse as a way to handwave the discrepancies away, there it is.
If you're looking for a Marvel No-Prize explanation for it, I'd say maybe Houses Phull and Zulpair were generally-but-unofficially considered "members of the club" starting in 1254, but with the chaos of Ahghairon's death and the Mis-Rule of the Lords Magister the Revived Lord's didn't get around to making it "On the Books Officially Official" until 1310.
Or just the fact that no one wants to be sniffed at as "the upjumped new money," so every House tries their damndest to lie about when they were ennobled and who is really the junior-most ("we were nobility YEARS before those icky Adarbrents, I swear it!").
....oh, and there's also the 2E City of Splendors boxed set which states the following;
quote:
Originally posted by City of Splendors: Who's Who In Waterdeep, p.7
The Maerklos family was formed 32 years ago [ CoS is set in 1368DR, so 1336DR ] with the fusing of the matriarchal Marrek family holdings and the Relekos clan holdings of her consort.
Which I suppose can be explained away as being either a transferrence or a melding of noble holdings instead of an actual "new" House, but even so still doesn't jive with the 3E Waterdeep: City of Splendors web enhancement's date of a 1332DR ennoblement.  |
AJA
YAFRP
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Edited by - AJA on 14 Nov 2017 00:48:18 |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2017 : 01:19:28
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The 2005 City of Splendors sourcebook also weirdly claims that no new family has been ennobled since 1335 DR, but the Adarbrents are the most recent one they actually show, in 1317 (short of the Marrek becoming Maerklos in 1332).
This can somewhat be explained away by saying that whatever house rose in 1335 had fallen by the time of the OGB. However, Elminster's Forgotten Realms states that the only two noble houses to be lost since 1254 were Zoar and Gildeggh. But, the 2005 sourcebook goes further to say that Maernos and Deepwinter also went extinct. Deepwinter could have been prior to Ahghairon's death (I don't know anything about that house), but Maernos went extinct between 2e and 3e - a further conflict with Elminster's Forgotten Realms.
I'm tempted to go "unreliable narrator" as you say, and put it down to Elminster not paying attention to fluctuations in the houses after the death of Ahghairon.
Edit: In this explanation, House Deepwinter could have been the ennobled House of 1335, that fell within the 21 years or so before the OGB. I guess they got massacred or something!
Edit 2: Nope, the Deepwinter thing doesn't work as the 2005 book says the last of them died during the Reign of the Guildmasters. Maybe the dating of 1335 is just an error. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 14 Nov 2017 01:26:20 |
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AJA
Senior Scribe
USA
747 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2017 : 03:00:54
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
Edit 2: Nope, the Deepwinter thing doesn't work as the 2005 book says the last of them died during the Reign of the Guildmasters. Maybe the dating of 1335 is just an error.
In Eric Boyd's "Dungeon of the Crypt" adventure (Dungeon Magazine #127, p.66) it states "House Deepwinter, a Waterdhavian noble house that went extinct during the Guild Wars (1259-1260DR)....at the height of the family fortunes, in the Year of the Gilded Cormorant (1129DR)...."
Which also places them way before 1335 (albeit not explicitly as nobility in the second passage).
Part Seven of Steven Schend's old "Realms By Night" web series also had some additional info about the Deepwinters and the Guild Wars, if you can find it.
Also, reading further in City of Splendors: Who's Who in Waterdeep, there are these two passages (p.7):
quote:
Nobles are also granted the right to bear symbolic arms,also known as "arms of grace"....
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quote:
No "arms of grace" have been granted by the Lords of Waterdeep in more than 30 winters (since the formation of the Maerklos arms); this recognition of nobility involves Falconfree, the Herald of Waterdeep, and unanimous agreement of the Lords, an action that seldom occurs."
So again, you might be able to reconcile different dates by saying that the Lords recognized a House as noble on [dateDR], but that there was no one presiding over the office of Falconfree (for whatever reason) to make it "HERALDS OFFICIAL" until [dateDR].
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AJA
YAFRP
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Most Recent Noble House: Adarbrent or Zulpair?
