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Martinsky
Acolyte

Canada
34 Posts

Posted - 13 Oct 2017 :  23:49:12  Show Profile Send Martinsky a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
1st as it my 1st post I will say Hi all and this forum is awesone!

I dont know if it have been answer somewhere , but I didnt find any source on it. The only thing I find it that in Unther they use patronimics prefered as on the 3.5 ed Campaign setting.

So it really not clear as in real world they was using sufixes or prefixes like -son, Mac-, Ben, etc...
In Faerun the most close I find it in Calimshan for the "yn" meaning "son of"
I suppose for Unther they most have some sort of Sufixe or prefixe to illustrate the patronimis. Example they cant be just name Frank Frank, if the father and son have the same name.
Unther are Middle-Eastern, North-Africa inspired so the closess pre-fixe I found will be "Ben" or "Abil-" or "ibn" or "Ben...ÂL..."(because some time they put to much "ben" I have read it can go until Adam himself) So that can make Frank ben John Ben Joe ..etc.. ben Adam!
So my questionnement do anyone have a guess or it is have been already answered, or maybe I can try ask a question to Ed himself? Does Untheric names use any prefixes or sufixes in their Surnames, Lastnames? Like the Scotts Mac- or the Viking -son, or the "yn" of Calimshan in Faerun, for the meaning of "son of".

Mod edit: Added a slash to the title. Sometimes this forum eats them.

Edited by - Martinsky on 14 Oct 2017 06:19:33

BadCatMan
Senior Scribe

Australia
401 Posts

Posted - 14 Oct 2017 :  02:15:22  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Unther is based on ancient Mesopotamia, so they have a Sumerian, Akkadian, Assyrian, and Babylonian culture. It wouldn't be right to use Arabic-like patronymics.

Looking at Old Empires, all of the Untheric NPCs have only single names – Shuruppak, Tiglath, Furifax – so that doesn't help. They probably don't have a formal patronymic system. Rather, it would be more appropriate to spell it out, for example, as "Azzedar, son of Gibbur".

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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 14 Oct 2017 :  02:30:36  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, I don't believe Unther does anything like that. The Mulhorandi with their "holy families" did have certain families that were descended from deities having house names revolving around the deity for male families only (i.e. the House of Horus-Re was Helcaliant, Thoth was House Tholaunt, Osiris was House Osriant, Anhur was house Ramathant). Some Giant societies (particularly frost and fire giant) often references the individual father by adding nameson or dottir depending on the sex of the child (so a male child of Jorgen would have the name Jorgensson and a female child might be Jorgensdottir). I can't think of any other group offhand in Faerun that does anything similar, but I do believe that Zakhara had some of those kind of naming conventions that you mention.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 14 Oct 2017 :  03:18:44  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, I can't attest to accuracy, but there is the legendary Fantasy Name Generator project, basically a vast database of names drawn from historical and ahistorical sources:
http://www.fantasynamegenerators.com/assyrian-names.php
http://www.fantasynamegenerators.com/babylonian-names.php
http://www.fantasynamegenerators.com/sumerian-names.php

These cultures (basically all cultures in the region, past and present) trace lineages patronymically. There's always a few exceptions, like the matriarchal Sarmatians (with their "Amazon" warriors). It seems that societies which allowed women to work and fight alongside men were more likely to promote women to noble or royal status. While other societies were strictly patriarchal (such as Ancient Egypt naming and portraying female pharaohs as males). Realmslore tends to generally be egalitarian and tolerant, males and females are recognized and venerated somewhat equally, and many powerful female deities (or female NPCs) are worshipped.

Shield dwarves in the Realms have a patronymic naming style. I am A, son of B, son of C, son of D, etc, all the way back (they say) to the sons of Moradin himself. Dwarven children must memorize lengthy genealogies, it's how they identify themselves and revere their ancestors, and I'm sure one could suffer endlessly through very long and very dreary evenings filled with hours and hours of half-drunken dwarven ancestor recitals. But in practice, dwarves tend to simply say "I am A, son of B, blood of C, etc" where the few "blood of" ancestors are appended because they are particularly noteworthy.

[/Ayrik]
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Martinsky
Acolyte

Canada
34 Posts

Posted - 14 Oct 2017 :  06:46:28  Show Profile Send Martinsky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank all for quick answer and Wooly for editing my title , the slash gone missing on my topic to, I just found the button to edit it.

quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan

Unther is based on ancient Mesopotamia, so they have a Sumerian, Akkadian, Assyrian, and Babylonian culture. It wouldn't be right to use Arabic-like patronymics.

Looking at Old Empires, all of the Untheric NPCs have only single names – Shuruppak, Tiglath, Furifax – so that doesn't help. They probably don't have a formal patronymic system. Rather, it would be more appropriate to spell it out, for example, as "Azzedar, son of Gibbur".



Yes I didnt find any Unther NPC with a surname neither. They are all single like you said. So my best guess will be to use "Abil-" as it Babylonian but I didnt fint any definition for just the "Abil-". Here the link for name and all those begin with "Abil" are traducted son of something. http://www.20000-names.com/male_babylonian_names.htm

I will prefer not use just "son of".

@Ayrik
quote:
...Shield dwarves in the Realms have a patronymic naming style.

Yes that may be pretty long it like the "ben" in arabic it why they use "...ben... Âl...". Im pretty sure the Reghedman tribes use something similar to the dwarves also.

@Sleyvas
quote:
I can't think of any other group offhand in Faerun that does anything similar, but I do believe that Zakhara had some of those kind of naming conventions that you mention.

The closes from this culture I found in Faerun are like I said the "yn" in some Calimshan. http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Calishite_naming_conventions
I will check if I can find something in Zakhara closest to the Untheric or they spell it out.

Thank again!
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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 14 Oct 2017 :  07:16:23  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
3e campaign setting says Unther uses patronyns instead of surnames which basically means that they are named after their fathers.

In our word that ends up as lots of people having surnames like gundarsson.

I decided to change it a little bit and because of the presence of the gods in unther i had them all have prefixes that denoted the noble house they belonged to and i had that appear at the front of their name since the gods are all important.

So names like Ram-Amazzed means he is Amazzed of the noble house of Ram (founded by Ramman).

But thats just my take on it and im changing a lot in unther for my take on things

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Martinsky
Acolyte

Canada
34 Posts

Posted - 14 Oct 2017 :  10:12:50  Show Profile Send Martinsky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That a good idea and it can work for Mulhorand too as Sleyvas said they are mostly just listed with their house-gods name.

I checked for Zakara and they use the "bin" and "ibn" like arabic does.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
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Posted - 14 Oct 2017 :  10:26:19  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I decided to make mulhorand and unther different. Unther has no peasant class so its actual population is quite low . Slaves dont count as people and are not members of the royal house.

Mulhorand on the other hand is kinder to its slaves and does have a lower class so it is likely to need surnames. So i was thinking forename, house name, surname.

And if you are going to run a game in unther im trying to detail the region as much as possible in my new project (in my signature)

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Edited by - Gary Dallison on 14 Oct 2017 10:40:11
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Martinsky
Acolyte

Canada
34 Posts

Posted - 14 Oct 2017 :  10:40:54  Show Profile Send Martinsky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes interesting idea about slaves difference in Unther vs Mulhorand! All slave belong to the gods-king in Mulhorand if I remember.
I just found what mean "son of" in Assyrian. I think I will forgot the "Abil-" thing as Im not sure it really mean "son of".
ANd going with your idea I found the meaining of "house of" in the same page for Assyrian. So it can feel better for the leaders.

So if no one have a clue on the real Untheric word for "Son of" or "House of" I may use those Assyrian one. It "Bar" for "son of" and "bet" for "house of". So with some gods prefixe or sufixe it can make a good variety.

Here the look for Assyrian https://neoaramaic.weebly.com/
-http://www.atour.com/forums/peshitta/714.html
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 14 Oct 2017 :  12:46:49  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

3e campaign setting says Unther uses patronyns instead of surnames which basically means that they are named after their fathers.



No offense, but I hate when there's no quote for obscure lore like this, so I looked it up. I'd never really delved this section of the Faerunian names section of Page 12 of the 3e campaign setting. I had never noted that it gave surname examples from various countries as well... which I like.... what I don't like is that it doesn't necessarily synch up with previous lore (for instance it doesn't mention Calishites doing the stuff they do, and the surnames for Mulhorand don't mention the ones from old empires).

Untheric: Male: Azzedar, Chadrezzan, Gibbur, Horat, Kassur,
Numer, Samar, Ungred. Female: Chadra, Ilzza, Jezzara, Marune,
Saldashune, Xuthra, Zeldara. Surnames; Seldom used, patronymics
preferred.


Then there's this that discusses something similar to "yn"

Faerun is vast. Among humans atone, its inhabitants bear literally
thousands upon thousands of names. Some folk nave no surnames,
others have a common clan name, and others have a
"son/daughter of" appellation. In Tharsult, Tashalar, and the
Border Kingdoms, the word "sar" is much used. It means "of the
blood of," and denotes a famous ancestor—or falsely claimed
ancestor—-so that a farmer might be "Baer sar Thardizar," after
the famous warlord of centuries ago.

Older usages such as "of the" and the name of a trade or place
(such as Ruthrar o' the Forge and Sammert o' the Hollow) are
falling out of favor and arc now rarely heard. Only wizards and the
most haughty adventurers use personal achievements in their
names, such as Dastrin of the Three Thunders or Belgaert of the
Deadly Stand, and this, too, is dying out. Occupations can be seen
within names, however:
Tel is an old Word for "works at"-or "works with",
forar once meant traveler or peddler,
belder was a guard or warrior on patrol,
turnskull was a digger, and
turnstone a miller.


So, it says that Untheric people seldom use surnames, but when they do its patronymic. I'd go out on a limb here and say that yeah, this is only for "blood of X incarnation".


By the way, I like the idea of surnames based on profession and I think it would be a worthwhile thing to come up with some more to cover some common professions. For instance, in our own world, this was a common thing where professions came into play and thus we have Carpenter, Miller, Archer, Baker, Brewer, Butcher, Carter, Clark, Cooper, Cook, Dyer, Farmer, Faulkner, Fisher, Fuller, Gardener, Glover, Head, Hunt or Hunter, Judge, Mason, Page, Parker, Potter, Sawyer, Slater, Smith, Taylor, Thatcher, Turner, Weaver, Woodman, and Wright (and even more delved like maybe Silversmith or Cartwright)elsewhere. For instance, maybe in the dales one term, in

Just for fun... what might you "reterm" for some of the above, so that they aren't as jarring to our English ears when we hear them used in Faerun? For instance let me throw out a few. It might even be fun to posit that some of these might be used in certain areas but others used Impiltur/Damara/Vaasa another, and Tethyr/Amn another, and maybe down in the east something else... all for carpenter.

Carpenter - Woodshaper, Woodshaver, Timbersmith
Farmer - Greengrower, Earthtiller/Earthturner, Chauntist
Mason - Stonelayer, Brickbaker,
Fisher - Baitsman, Netcaster
Potter - Clayshaper
Hunter - Malarsman
Judge - Justicar, Tyrsman, Lawgiver


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 14 Oct 2017 13:17:41
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 14 Oct 2017 :  15:36:01  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Searches like mesopotamian|sumerian|babylonian|akkadian "family name"|"family tree"|genealogy|dynasty|royal provide many interesting diagrams like this which show a lot of names and naming styles, lol.

I notice some interesting quirks like parts of hyphenated names changing to show marital status or showing how many children were sired or indicating birth order for (male) heirs or indicating (what appears to be) ceremonial/temple positions.

I also notice that affixes for ranks and functions were often merged into lifelong names, not addressed separately, much like the Ancient Roman practice of taking cognomens, and bearing these names sometimes "inherited" additional lineage (making the name-bearer a "relative" or "descendant" of some king or house or god/goddess, internet says to align and assure familial/clan loyalties).

And apparently slaves were usually assigned new names by their owners, rarely permitted to keep their original (family) names.

I'm certainly no anthropologist, historian, or linguist, though. Just a reader.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 14 Oct 2017 16:33:18
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Starshade
Learned Scribe

Norway
279 Posts

Posted - 14 Oct 2017 :  19:22:27  Show Profile Send Starshade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Could be wise to separate the wheat from the chaff. Bar and Ben is both arameic, that is, also used in somewhat recent Jewish/Arabic. Lots of the Assyrian name pages I found who list bar and bet seems to be made for middle easterners interested in great names for children.
There is barely any non-Semitic (as in non-arabic or jewish) naming traditions alive in the middle east i know of, and middle eastern history is not a topic I have studied, but here is an published article with Akkadian (Ancient Assyrian Language, semitic) names from Ancient Egyptian documents written in Arameic: https://www.academia.edu/34039305/Akkadian_Names_in_Aramaic_Documents_from_Ancient_Egypt
I think you guys should be able to read it straight away, no subscriptions there.
It got whole names in Akkadian, complete with lists of " X son of Y " examples, with lots of names.

Edited by - Starshade on 14 Oct 2017 19:40:11
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moonbeast
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USA
522 Posts

Posted - 14 Oct 2017 :  19:23:30  Show Profile Send moonbeast a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Or just take a few historically known Mesopotamian names (of people and places), and make minor spelling or syllabic adjustments, and you end up with a Mesopotamian-sounding name:

Mardún or Marruk (similar to Marduk)

Giljezzar or Gilzadesh (similar to Gilgamesh)

Ashuras (like the deity)

Zakkad (like the city)

Zaggat (similar to ziggurat)

Hammurani or Hammurabal (like Hammurabi)

Just be creative, and type up a long enough list of names like these examples above, and eventually you end up with a long list of names to be used for any PC or NPC in your (Untheric) campaign region.

Edited by - moonbeast on 14 Oct 2017 19:26:23
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Martinsky
Acolyte

Canada
34 Posts

Posted - 14 Oct 2017 :  22:02:53  Show Profile Send Martinsky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank alot for those references and infos, I appreciate!

So it easy to say that including gods in there surnames was real popular. I know aslo like Ayrik point it out that often they have sufixes or prefixes, related to martial status. Those meaning in english thing like "son of an Amir" or "from the family of a sheik".

It interessing to know also that "In Tharsult, Tashalar, and the Border Kingdoms, the word "sar" is much used."
And in the document of Starshade "sar" seem to mean something similar also in Akkadian like "of the" or just "the". Maybe it seem used for some other purpose also.
Maybe I can even just use some of those names in the document and tweak it a little to sound little more Faerun or UnthericMulhorand Pantheon.
It can be a little more complicated than just use something like the "yn" but can be more diverse.
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Starshade
Learned Scribe

Norway
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Posted - 15 Oct 2017 :  13:55:54  Show Profile Send Starshade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's called theophoric names, it's easy to find them with google, and since some "Generic" real semite names meaning things like "baal is great" from Phoenicians, as example, would in Faerun only reference the FR Lord of Murder (in real life, baal was once a generic "lord"), It's fine to substitute god names, though I do not know which of the real deities is existing in Unther mythos (a God don't need to be alive to be remembered in names, only remembered, as a positive deity or power).
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 15 Oct 2017 :  18:04:58  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd expect the Imaskari languages to have a lot of influence on Untheric names.

[/Ayrik]
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Martinsky
Acolyte

Canada
34 Posts

Posted - 15 Oct 2017 :  22:47:25  Show Profile Send Martinsky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes I saw a documentary someday talking of Baal, it like you said if I remember it was meaining something like "the lord". Baal reference was found in hundred of place and accros lot of different civilization.
I will have to check wich god got killed in the Untheric pantheon and who not listed.

Well about Imaskari maybe but the thing it Old empire book it almost the only big reference about Unther and Mulhorand. The guys who wrote it got influence mostly from Egypt and Babylon. It one of the culture who look the most like real one in Faerun. So Im not sure he dig deep as Imaskari influence. But that an interessing idea for make some new name based on Imaskari.
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2017 :  07:54:54  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
(Thus the very manly and cool-sounding name "Balthazar", along with its countless variations across dozens of languages and thousands of years.)

[/Ayrik]
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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe

Australia
401 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2017 :  12:09:57  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Huh. So, Baal is also spelled Bel, both meaning "lord" or "master", giving names like Balthazar and Belshazzar.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bel_(mythology)
Now I know why all the wizards in David Eddings's Belgariad and Mallorean series receive a "Bel-" prefix to their names.

The only classical Untheric NPC with any structure to their name is Shudu-Ab, priestess of Tiamat. So dazzlerdal may be onto something with the use of prefixes/suffixes.

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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2017 :  14:17:47  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Martinsky


I will have to check wich god got killed in the Untheric pantheon and who not listed.



From Powers and Pantheons page 95
In a titanic clash known as the Battle of the Gods, Re was slain by the orcish patriarchal deity, Gruumsh, in -1071 DR, and many senior members of the Untheric Pantheon were slain, including Inanna, Girru, Ki, Marduk, Nanna-Sin, Nergal, and Utu.


From Powers and Pantheons page 96
In Unther Gilgeam, whose manifestation was involved in the day-to-day details of ruling Unther, changed significantly. As the centuries passed and Unther declined in prosperity and influence, as taxes rose and the people's hatred grew, Gilgeam became a cruel and jealous lord. He managed to drive all the remaining Untheric divine manifestations from Realmspace except for Ramman and Ishtar (Isis). (Assuran/Hoar had been driven from Unther by Ramman centuries earlier and allowed by Ao to gain worshippers in the sphere of influence of the Faerunian pantheon in exchange for allowing Mystra's worship in Unther.)

So, it looks like the Mulhorandi pantheon and the Untheric pantheons were originally very different in one way (possibly). The Mulhorandi pantheon is relatively small, but all of them are highly respected and treated as nobility. The Untheric pantheon on the other hand lists 7 deities dying and calls it "many senior members of the pantheon".... somewhat implying that if these were the senior gods, there were probably a lot of lesser gods. I'd venture that on an individual basis, the various Untheric gods were less powerful, but that there were more of them. I'd bet a lot of them were of the equivalent power level to a demigod (noting that I use that term for power level, as there were manifestations with the power of greater powers even though Toril-bound).

Thus, I wonder if the intrinsic philosophical difference between these two pantheons was that the Untheric people were poor, hard working, with few resources, but numerous... and the Mulhorandi were rich, built great things, and were highly intelligent. The Mulhorandi took slaves because they were proven by divine right to rule, and in so doing they improved the lives of the slaves. The Untheric took slaves simply to reduce their own workload, and if you're going to live and eat, you have to work for it.

With this in mind, I'd say we should at least include the "other" deities related to the ones that have died in Unther that come from various stories. For instance, making a list of such

Dumuzi - god of shepherds (husband of Inanna)

Nenlil- Possible daughter of Ki. Wife of Enlil, mother of Nergal, Nanna-Sin, Ninazu, and Enbilulu

Ninazu - god of healing (possibly bequeathed his power to Ishtar when run out of Unther by Gilgeam?)

Enbilulu - god of rivers, irrigation, and farming (possibly bequeathed his power to Ishtar when run out of Unther by Gilgeam?)

Ereshkigal - sister of Inanna and Utu, wife of Nergal (possibly didn't give her power to anyone when run out of Unther by Gilgeam?)

Ningal - goddess of dreaming. wife of Nanna-Sin, mother of Utu, Inanna, Ereshkigal, and Ramman (aka Ishkur/Addad). It should be noted that Ishtar and Inanna are often interchanged, but in the realms they are distinctly different. Also, Ramman is noted as being a relatively new deity to the pantheon. Perhaps one way to "fix" this strangeness is to actually have Ningal and Nanna-Sin "birth" these two deities just prior to the Battle of the Gods. Inanna may bequeath her power to her sister Ishtar(love) and brother Ramman (war). This may even be why Enlil stays around for a few more centuries... because someone has to help "raise" these young gods (and it could be interesting if in fact they did "grow up" slowly over 4 or 5 centuries). Similarly, Gilgeam might have been a young god at the time of the Battle of the Gods.



Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Starshade
Learned Scribe

Norway
279 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2017 :  17:06:25  Show Profile Send Starshade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Baal could refer to several deities in earth's history (in one period, even Jahwe/JHWH), but Baal usually refer to Hadad in biblical texts, and mirror modern Christian uses of the term "Lord", though the ancient middle easterners had specific uses of the divine "first names", so to say. Bel of Palmyra, a sun god, also could be an "baal".

Ayrik: I see in your link Imaskari is refered to as inspired by Altaic, an "language group" without any known history, archaeology or "culture" as a basis connection between the branches in the language family (and abandoned). What is the reference on the wiki quoting? Is it Turkish who's the basis?
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2017 :  18:08:33  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Strangely, even though I like the idea of "this deity = that deity" for a lot of my cosmological musings (and I know most folks around here HATE that because a lot of that happened in 4e in canon), when it comes to fiendish types I am all for them being different, and I just assume Bal, Bhal, Baal, and Bel are all different fiend-lords (and gods). Demons are in near-infinite numbers, so one would think there has to be some repetition of names (which then begs the question - how do they know which one is being summoned? Or is there a certain 'psychic imprint' that a person leaves on a name when speaking it, so the summoned {or hearing} being knows its for them?)

EDIT:
And now that I am thinking about this, I would imagine naming would work quite the opposite in the lower planes than it does in the Prime. Whereas in the Prime, when someone becomes famous, their name becomes popular, and people use it to name their kids (which is why we have so many 'Torms' in FR). However, when it comes to fiends (and perhaps even evil deities), one wouldn't want to draw the attention of such beings, so the names would not be used over again.

for example, maybe the name Orcus was popular among demons for a time, but once he became uber-powerful, he probably made a point of wiping-out any others with that name. Or maybe its just simpler than that - other mid-level fiends just hear the name and kill them out of spite (now I can say "I killed Orcus"!)

Of course, it could work the same for mortals as well. Anybody who was named 'Elminster' by their parents would probably go by another name as an adult. Imagine being named that living in Zhentil Keep, or being named 'Simbul' in Thay. It just ain't gonna fly.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 16 Oct 2017 18:19:30
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Martinsky
Acolyte

Canada
34 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2017 :  23:44:54  Show Profile Send Martinsky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
For Demon it particuliar I think they gave to no-one there real name, because it a way to control them or to banish , by someone who know his real name. It often something real long like the name of the dragons.

About Baal origin in our world I cant found the link I searched some years ago when looking about the Black meteorite in the Mecca. It was 1st venerated as a false idol by follower of Houbal, who it a deity related to baal. But from there I was able to go back to some old king in the ancient time but Im not able to find it again. Anyway this king Im pretty sure it was Nimrod- Nemrod and it probably the origin of Marduk. If you take history of Marduk it was similar to the Nemrod one. So it why some historian think it the same personage. So Mardouk often called Baal-Mardouk have the origin of a human king. I think lot of divinty from that time come from ancient kings and lords. We can compare to medieval "lord" term to the "baal" term of this time I suppose. I think even Julius Ceasar got venerated as a god some time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nimrod
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marduk

@Sleyvas thank again for all this info your a boss!
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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe

Australia
401 Posts

Posted - 17 Oct 2017 :  03:10:29  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by StarshadeAyrik: I see in your link Imaskari is refered to as inspired by Altaic, an "language group" without any known history, archaeology or "culture" as a basis connection between the branches in the language family (and abandoned). What is the reference on the wiki quoting? Is it Turkish who's the basis?


I'm not Ayrik, but I can answer. Just as the wiki article explains and sources, the information is taken from the "Speaking in Tongues" article by Thomas M Costa. It's used more as an inspiration or model, or simply something similar, not to imply a direct connection: just as Common sounds like English and Wa-an like Japanese, Imaskari sounds sorta like Altaic, but isn't really. As for Altaic being discredited, I imagine it was more supported when Costa wrote it. But as a mythical ancient prototype for languages across Asia, it's still a good model for the history of Imaskar and its successor states.

quote:
Originally posted by MarkustayOf course, it could work the same for mortals as well. Anybody who was named 'Elminster' by their parents would probably go by another name as an adult. Imagine being named that living in Zhentil Keep, or being named 'Simbul' in Thay. It just ain't gonna fly.


Like this guy, "Elfinster".

BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 17 Oct 2017 :  14:12:29  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
now THAT is funny. Its amazing the little easter eggs that are buried literally everywhere back in the second edition lore, but they were just putting out SOOOO MUCH back then that we couldn't keep up and have a day job.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 17 Oct 2017 :  14:28:52  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Starshade, @BadCatMan -
"The classification of Imaskari languages were based on the real-life Altaic languages, such as Azerbaijani, Turkish, and Mongol."

Reading the wikipedia page the FR wiki page links to, the Altaic language group was the widely accepted (prevailing) model until the 1960s and has become "discredited" in subsequent decades. New findings, new understandings, fancy computational language pattern analyses, etc. "Altaic" isn't precise linguistic terminology anymore.

I didn't write either of those wiki pages. And I definitely lack any sort of academic linguistics degree, lol.

But Thomas M Costa's "Speaking in Tongues" article - the cited source of this quote - was only meant to describe and compare Realms languages as analogues of Earth languages.

Maybe the Imaskari language group is indeed a perfect analogue of our (discredited) "Altaic language group". Or maybe it would be better described in whatever terms we now use instead of "Altaic". The point seems purely academic unless one actually intends to study these languages, lol.

Thomas M Costa himself has commented in these scrolls:
"My old Speaking in Tongues article is circa 2E. Sean Reynolds said he started with it when he worked up the 3E language list, but the decision was obviously made to simplify -- which probably was a good decision. Most of the dialect references in my article are probably still fine -- in fact, many of the dropped languages could easily become dialects. All that said, the languages were changed so much, I don't know that I would reference my article for too much. That is to say, it was canon. It clearly ain't now."

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 17 Oct 2017 14:35:35
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 17 Oct 2017 :  14:40:33  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Elfinster is funny. There was also once an Elmonster, a kobold or goblin I think, but seemingly impossible to find the original reference these days.

Hmm, maybe I should start a second Candlekeep account, registered under a name like "Olaundo" or "Woody Rupert" or "Markusfey".

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 17 Oct 2017 14:50:06
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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe

Australia
401 Posts

Posted - 18 Oct 2017 :  02:17:14  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Now I want to see an "Elmunster".

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

@Starshade, @BadCatMan -
"The classification of Imaskari languages were based on the real-life Altaic languages, such as Azerbaijani, Turkish, and Mongol."

Reading the wikipedia page the FR wiki page links to, the Altaic language group was the widely accepted (prevailing) model until the 1960s and has become "discredited" in subsequent decades. New findings, new understandings, fancy computational language pattern analyses, etc. "Altaic" isn't precise linguistic terminology anymore.

I didn't write either of those wiki pages. And I definitely lack any sort of academic linguistics degree, lol.

But Thomas M Costa's "Speaking in Tongues" article - the cited source of this quote - was only meant to describe and compare Realms languages as analogues of Earth languages.

Maybe the Imaskari language group is indeed a perfect analogue of our (discredited) "Altaic language group". Or maybe it would be better described in whatever terms we now use instead of "Altaic". The point seems purely academic unless one actually intends to study these languages, lol.

Thomas M Costa himself has commented in these scrolls:
"My old Speaking in Tongues article is circa 2E. Sean Reynolds said he started with it when he worked up the 3E language list, but the decision was obviously made to simplify -- which probably was a good decision. Most of the dialect references in my article are probably still fine -- in fact, many of the dropped languages could easily become dialects. All that said, the languages were changed so much, I don't know that I would reference my article for too much. That is to say, it was canon. It clearly ain't now."



Shrug. At the FRW, we can only report Costa's article circa 1999. Even if the real-world theories or the Forgotten Realms languages have since been superseded, it's still worth wikifying. And until the setting gives more language lore directly contradicting or adding to this, we have nothing more to add to it. It's up to the reader to decide how to interpret it. In any case, I've revised the note to state that Altaic is discredited.

BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 18 Oct 2017 :  08:08:05  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I had leaned away from a couple of things Mr. Costa had done there, back when I was working on the Taan region (trying to bridge the FR, K-T, and Al-Qadim lore), but as of recently I decided i was wrong about the Imaskari's origins, and thus, their language may very well have 'popped up out of nowhere' (but I like how its connected to devic, which was still spoken in Solon up to 3e, and if Devic = Deva, it could be related to the 'langauge primeval', which is the basis for many world's earliest languages (including Earth-Latin, which is why we find so many magical terms contain bits of Latin, on all different worlds... even Harry Potter does it... a great deal).

In fact, I would go so far as to say that's why it seems you can speak the 'common' of any world you go to, even though each world has a different 'common'. Because each is based on the primal language (which only exists in its purest form in the Astral - its the 'language of the mind' spoken with psionics), somehow, the universe has a mechanism for converting what you say into the closest form in a new Crystal Sphere (in other words, every universe is Star Trek). Weirdly, it won't do this for languages from the same sphere (it works the same way with deities, or using magic - when you enter a new sphere you are 'translated' into the physics of the new sphere. Think of it like porting a character over from one edition of D&D to another).

So if I go back to my computer analogies, its like you are running under an emulator. I hope that doesn't give you bad lag.
I also have to wonder if it would look like you were speaking like a badly-dubbed Godzilla movie.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 19 Oct 2017 07:38:43
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 18 Oct 2017 :  09:52:36  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As far as psionic communication goes ... 1E and 2E rules (supported by lore) always asserted that telepaths needed to understand a language. Sometimes the same language. But sometimes any language - the ability to think and communicate in a language medium was itself the required commonality. Depends on which rulebooks you prefer, the late "2.5E" stuff (including Dark Sun) favoured the latter requirement.

Sadly I never played any 3E/3.5E which involves psionics, the DM and group always voted to exclude it from the outset.

[/Ayrik]
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Martinsky
Acolyte

Canada
34 Posts

Posted - 18 Oct 2017 :  12:30:37  Show Profile Send Martinsky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well I kind to agree for telepath thing who go with word if he talk telepathicly in Imaskar you will probably heard it but without understant it. It like when I think in english and other time in my native language. But for some of psionics thing who are like more empathics with feeling or with images visions I will say it more universal. If an Illithid enter your head you will probably feel it but if he talk to you in Illithid you will probably not catch a word, maybe something like weird sound or maybe even pain.

I will begin to do my Surnames for Unther list tonigt maybe tomorrow if no ones have more clue. So I will try to post some of my result soon.
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