Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Forgotten Realms Journals
 General Forgotten Realms Chat
 Its a Whole New World...
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Previous Page | Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 3

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2017 :  03:34:28  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I had planned to write it up myself... which is why I started this thread. LOL

I recalled he was a 'goodly monk' who bought the city, but I couldn't find the exact quote. I have it where he - and a few others - were all 'being ridden' by Tan Chin at one time or another, but because of the unique qualities of Ambuchar's body (he eventually attains Diamond Body status as a Monk), he is immune to the aging-effects of Tan Chin's specific form of Lichdom (thus, his 'longest living' body). He may be still alive, and he may have even eventually escaped Tan Chin's clutches (which would be a semi-happy ending for him, at least). I believe there is a monastery around there (Tiger's Nest) he could have fled to, filled with insanely long-lived Monks.

I established (way back when we were working on all this) that it takes a Ghost Lich (Suel Lich) some time to adjust to a new body (so no spell casting, etc), and the more time he spends in a particular body, the easier the transition becomes, so it goes from a few days the first time, to only hours or even minutes if he's well acclimated. In the case of Ambuchar, it became nearly instantaneous (just seconds). Eventually I have to finish my 'history of Tan Chin', which is very convoluted (because at some point during his career, he WAS the first emperor of Shou-Lung (Anok-Imaskar), and he WAS 'a hero'.

Thirayam is either his (Ambuchar's) son or grandson - I haven't decided which. If you are familiar with the Naruto anime, the relationship between him and Tan Chin is like the relationship between Kobuto and Orochimaru (at first tricks him into following him as a child, and then slowly 'corrupts' him into being true evil. In fact, just like the anime, the 'student' may have surpassed the teacher). However, Tan Chin would have been VERY displeased at what happened in Ra-Khati - it may have even been through his actions that the place got nuked (after become a 'kingdom of undead').

EDIT:
It would have to be a son of Ambuchar, given the timeframes involved (I want the events in Open Grave to have happened right at the tail-end of 3e). For some reason the Hordelands stuff in that 3e Dragon article doesn't even touch-upon the relationship between Bhrokiti and Hubadai (and he was even willing to defy his father - risking DEATH - to be with her). Then that article casually mentions him trying to 'woo' western noble ladies for a queen. Apparently, something must have happened there where the two weren't speaking (it may have just been 'political'), but then he goes and 'rushes to her aid' when Ra-Khati gets attacked by Thirayam. All very love-storyish (with an unhappy ending... but thats all you ever get with love).

They fail (Hubadai, Bhrokiti, and whoever else), and the place becomes Thay 2, the sequel. In fact, I am even toying with the idea that Thirayam went to Thay for a time to learn under Szass Tam, and that he built his own 'Dread Ring' in Ra-Khati. Once Tan Chin is 'killed' at the culmination of the old AP, Thirayam would have been looking for a 'new master' (and Ambuchar may not even be aware he has a son). At some point some stupid schmuck reawakens (finds the final {main} phylactory) Tan Chin, and he sees what Thirayam has done to his beloved Ra-Khati (if you look at the history and maps of Imaskar from tGHotR, you'll see Anok-Imaskar - the FIRST empire of Shou - was based IN those mountains). Actually, it probably had very little to do with 'fondness' and a whole lot to do with 'secret stashes' (magical arsenals) he had hidden in that region.

Now, the meteor/whatever striking the heart of Ra-Khati coincides with the Spellplague happening - this is IDEAL because it leaves the cause wide open (was it the Spellplague itself, something Tan Chin did, or something else was involved?)

Ya know, for a bit of quasi-canonical lore I greatly disliked at first, its really starting to come together. I can even tie this to that Shou prince visiting Mulhorand (have to create my own timeline to see how all that works-out). I also have some interesting adventuring ideas for the region (it almost becomes like 'the Chaos-scar of the est' LOL). And the fact that the shou navy - and merchant marine - have to use that new body of water just adds to all the fun.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 23 Aug 2017 17:05:11
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2017 :  20:58:02  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Realm of Seven Shires:

For a very long time (at least two centuries) halflings have been building communities along the Lake of the Long Arm. Some settlements can even trace their roots back to the exodus from fallen Meritan, in what is now Amn. For the most part, these Hin just wanted to be left alone, to their own devices. In the last few decades of the 14th century DR, they have even begun to spread north of that lake, toward the other two large lakes in the region - The Lake of the Snake, and Lake Bloodrun (so called due to its reddish waters, tinged thusly by rust running from the iron deposits in the nearby hills). Unbenowst to most of the rest of Faerûn, their population in the region had soared to nearly 50,000.

And then the Spellplague struck. The initial upheaval along the southern coast of Faerûn managed to kill-off half the population of Lurien. As the waters continued to rise, giving birth to new rivers and seas and changing the landscape forevermore, Hin communities throughout The Realms opened their hearts and their doors to refugees fleeing the cataclysm. In the years that followed - rightfully called 'The Wailing Years' - 100,000 new halflings had moved into the Lakes region. Although normally laid-back, the Hin responded quickly and efficiently to the crisis, organizing around camps (that would become new settlements) and getting the newcomers situated as quickly as possibly. Through this effort a government of sorts formed where there was none before, and Five 'counties', or 'Shires' were created. Around this same time, Sembia and Cormyr had come to blows over the land between their two nations, and the city of Daerlun. This quickly escalates, and most of the settlements in the region are pulled into a civil war. In 1441 DR, the Treaty of Griffonfang Bridge is signed, and the region between the two nations becomes a "no-mans land", and independent of outside control.

Once again, unknown to most outsiders, many of the communities in this area had very large gnomish populations. In fact, some settlements were wholly gnomish, and the rest had nearly as many gnomes as humans. The gnomes also opened their communities to the hin refugees, as fellow 'wee folk' (the two races have always helped each other at every opportunity), and although the influx wasn't anything like it was in the Lakes region, it was still rather sizeable (perhaps 20,000). The Hin across the Neck (that body of water between Sembia and the Dragon Coast) sent tradesman and organizers there as well, and soon the humans (and others) in the region found themselves the minority in many places. When the first 'Shires Council' met in 1450 DR, the gnomes had sent their own representatives from across the water. It was decided that the 'Five Shires' of the Lakes region would join with two additional shires formed from the Sembia-Cormyr border, to form a very loose 'republic' of sorts, for mutual protection & commerce. Back home in those border-lands, humans found themselves being out-voted on local town councils - apparently the gnomes had been preparing for something like this and had placed many representatives in Urmlaspyr, Daerlun, and elsewhere.

Sembia (and their Netherese 'masters') were not happy at all with this development, and began to make moves towards squashing it. In a surprise move, Cormy announced its approval for the new Realm and even moved its own army to the border in case it was needed to help the region 'retain its independence', as per the Treaty of Griffonfang Bridge. The Sembians were not about to back-down... until word arrived of The Lords Alliance also approving the creation of the new Realm, and asking the 'wee folk' if they required any help "in their endeavors". Not wanting to get into another war with the whole of Faerûn, the Sembians (really the Netherese) backed-down against such a united front.

And so it stands today, as of 1500 DR. Much has changed, and the hin were forced to adopt a more 'proactive' political stance (a well-trained militia and a decent navy operating in the Inner Sea via Longarm lake). On the other hand, much still remains the same for individual hin and their families. They still prefer not to be bothered with "outsider nonsense", but they've come to realize ignoring the outside world won't make it go away. Fortunately, the Gnomes of the northern shires (Daerlunshire & Umlashire) are more than willing to act as buffer between the 'aggressive big-folk' and the halflings, and handle most of the political maneuvering for the Realm.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 23 Aug 2017 21:03:25
Go to Top of Page

Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2441 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2017 :  23:52:22  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Good work, Markustay. Interesting region choice. Not a region I would like to develop, seeing that it got all the attention in 5e. I prefer canon-light areas.

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 06 Oct 2017 :  19:24:16  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bloodstone Lands Lore:

1002 DR (Year of the Heavenly Rock): Legend has it a large 'falling star' streaked across the Great Glacier and landed somewhere in what is now Vaasa (which was under the Glacier at the time). Sages tell of a time when the air was filled with great clouds of moisture and soot that befouled most of eastern Faerûn, to the point where the gods had to intervene to keep life from fleeing the land altogether. After a year of darkness and cold, stability returned, and instead of a desolate wasteland, what emerged were new lands from beneath the Icecap, and the region south of the Galenas became a warm and fertile basin. This region became known as The Bloodstone Lands, so-named because of the strange rock found in Galenas, which only appeared after the star had fallen.

The Eastern Reaches - For years scholars have been perplexed by how to name this region, which includes the Bloodstone Lands, which is where the confusion comes in. In times past, The Vast (Vaastar) was always considered part of 'The Eastern Heartlands', and Impiltur - although socially part of those same Heartlands - was considered part of the Unapproachable East. Narfell, The Cold Land, was considered a thing unto itself, occasionally lumped-in with the UE, and other times, considered a part of 'The Endless Wastes'.

When Vaasa and Damara were uncovered from beneath the Great Glacier, they quickly became known as 'The Bloodstone Lands', and began causing havoc among sages who like to keep things within specific classifications. Some few immediately included both The Vast and Impiltur in the Bloodstone Lands, because they also bordered the Galena Mountains (which had just been the leading edge of the glacier previously). Most, however, only included Impiltur in those lands. Others insisted - because Impiltur had been 'preexisting' - it should not be part of the newly formed Bloodstone Lands, and thus must now be classified as part of the Unapproachable East (although some would argue its technically 'the gateway to the Unapproachable East', rather than an actual part of it).

Thus, poor Impiltur often got 'left out in the cold', as it were. In fact, a new classification was briefly used during the last part of the 14th century - 'The Cold Lands' - which included Narfell, but NOT Impiltur. During that time it was mostly excepted by geographic scholars that Impiltur was part of the UE, even though it was often left out of most guidebooks of that region (including the never-released "Volo's Guide to the Unapproachable East"¹). By the end of the 15th century, it was agreed upon by the Cartographers of Waterdeep, the Sages of Candlekeep, and the Adventurer's Guild (formerly of Cormyr, who now have chapter-houses in most major cities) that The Bloodstone Lands, Impiltur, AND Narfell are now part of 'The Easting Reaches'. Unfortunately, this esteemed group still could not agree where to put The Vast, because many argue its history is more closely connected to Moonsea North than the other nations under this newly established region. Until such a time when it finally forms into a nation of its own, I fear it shall remain in this undesignated condition it once shared with Impiltur.

Marthonius of Waterdeep, 'Explorer extraordinaire' of the adventurer's Guild




¹A highly edited form of this tome was made available to Ed Greenwood - simply called The Unapproachable East - by yours truly. The original caused no less than a dozen powerful groups and individuals to leave death-threats for Volo (not unusual for him, mind ye), which included several Zulkirs, the Witches of Rashemen, and The Simbul! Leave it to Volo to unite such disparate personages in a common cause. It was all I could do to keep my lady-love from stringing him up by his 'coin purse'. - Elminster

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 07 Oct 2017 16:02:38
Go to Top of Page

Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe

USA
329 Posts

Posted - 07 Oct 2017 :  04:44:10  Show Profile  Visit Storyteller Hero's Homepage Send Storyteller Hero a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think that it should be noted that a country is the people, and not necessarily the land that they live on.

The Halruuans could have transported their cities and citizens without taking the land itself with them.

My Blog: https://www.facebook.com/Johnnys-Tabletop-RPG-Design-Blog-1697026710539149/?ref=aymt_homepage_panel

My DMG Shop: http://www.dmsguild.com/browse.php?x=0&y=0&author=Johnny%20Tek

Go to Top of Page

George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6638 Posts

Posted - 07 Oct 2017 :  04:51:31  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Bloodstone Lands Lore:

<SNIP>




Lovely stuff. Which reminds me that I should send you some lore I made up.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 07 Oct 2017 :  16:06:02  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, I am actually within an hour or so of completing the '1st draft' of Sarshel, and have been for about five days. Just been insanely busy (like today, I have to figure out why my furnace isn't working, and plumbing & heating are my least knowledgeable construction areas). I also have to try to visit my mom, and swing by my son's house to try to get his internet connection better, depending on how long the stupid furnace takes me. {sigh} I really hate RW hassles - playing with pretend worlds is so much easier.

quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero

I think that it should be noted that a country is the people, and not necessarily the land that they live on.

The Halruuans could have transported their cities and citizens without taking the land itself with them.
Wouldn't that also mean that the Halruaans themselves were really Netherese?

My thoughts are that it is some combination of the two.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 08 Oct 2017 16:18:41
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2017 :  17:15:20  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay, so looking for a name (and some associated lore) in the three Hordelands modules, I came across this little gem -
quote:
In one room, a hundred priests stand before ten thousand tiny idols reciting names in their bizarre dialect. "They are reciting the names of the Padhra", Changchub explains. "When they stop, the world will end."

Well, it seems I have a nice canon reason why a meteor took-out Khazari and Ra-khati.

When 'Raja Thirayam' (Tan Chin's apprentice/son/disciple) took the place over, they killed all the monks, thus initiating the prophesy. It, of course, also coincided with the Spellplague.

I just love when things come together.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 30 Oct 2017 17:19:18
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2017 :  18:32:10  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Okay, so looking for a name (and some associated lore) in the three Hordelands modules, I came across this little gem -
quote:
In one room, a hundred priests stand before ten thousand tiny idols reciting names in their bizarre dialect. "They are reciting the names of the Padhra", Changchub explains. "When they stop, the world will end."

Well, it seems I have a nice canon reason why a meteor took-out Khazari and Ra-khati.

When 'Raja Thirayam' (Tan Chin's apprentice/son/disciple) took the place over, they killed all the monks, thus initiating the prophesy. It, of course, also coincided with the Spellplague.

I just love when things come together.



Hmmm, so the Padhra started in Ulgarth.... and it deals with the concept of one's soul not going to the afterlife, but instead being reincarnated within the world as a new life form....

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe

300 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2017 :  20:28:36  Show Profile Send Cyrinishad a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X


quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

And I still think Abeir = Aebrynis = Athas = Ansalon
and the Io's blood Island Chain from Council of Wyrms



Add the world of the dragon overlords of Dragonlance to that list. Seeing how powerful are the Abeiran dragons (compared to those living in Toril), I always think in Abeir when I read about those alien dragons.



I'm totally going to lump Eberron into this grouping (Abeiran=Eberron?), and give A Big +1 to the Abeir= Aebrynis/Athas/Ansalon/Krynn/Eberron concept... I've been ruminating on these connections for a long time now, and it's good to see that others are starting to see the same connections... Especially interesting when considering that the Dragonlance Lore indicates that the most significant Artifact on Krynn is the "Book of Knowledge and True Names and the record of the High God's Plan for Creation"... which is called the "Tobril".

The High God withdrew from Krynn after creating it, and left behind the "Tobril". The High God has no clerics, and divine spellcasters cannot draw power from him... Could the High God actually be AO? Could the "Tobril" be directly connected to the world of Toril?

To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates

Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 31 Oct 2017 :  01:46:21  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
See, now this is weird.

I've been thinking about Eberron a lot lately, not in regards to trying to blend it with these others, but rather, in how its Crystal Sphere works. And one of the theories I've worked-out in my head is that it must not be in 'normal space'. Or rather, the Crytsal Sphere holding it isn't in the Phlogiston (Deep Ethereal), but rather, in the astral. This was just one take I had, but then I think I settled on something a bit more in-line with other D&D lore.

Now, for awhile I've thought Abeir was in the Astral, because it fits (right down to the silvery sky). I know a primordial is supposedly to blame for that, but we can always fudge that and just say 'its folklore'.

So even though I don't see any logical way to shunt Eberron into/onto Abeir, I have pictured both being Crystal Spheres within the Astral, rather than Ethereal (Phlogiston/SJ space).

I can easily put all those other settings on one planet, but we have a complete map of Eberron - the whole freakin' planet! There just is no way to shoe-horn that into something else. However, as I typed this, there may be a way of shoe-horning Abeir into Eberspace.

EDIT:
Possibility: Eberron is Abeir in the far future (considering how EB's cosmology goes back further than Core D&D, that might actually make the most sense). That would mean Abeir (right now, for us, in Realmspace) should have those same mini-planes floating around it in orbit, in the astral. Because Abeir would still need some of those planes as well (like the elemental ones), but it can't be 'hooked into' the main (core) cosmology, because supposedly you can only reach it through the Shadowfell (and coincidentally, thats also the only canon way to reach Eberron from other D&D worlds as well).

The mythology of Eberron also works out nicely that way - Io becomes 'Eberron', Shar become Khyber, and Selûne becomes Siberys. They even the draconic pantheon as their constellations , which is perfect for Abeir.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 31 Oct 2017 15:55:41
Go to Top of Page

Bragi
Seeker

USA
87 Posts

Posted - 31 Oct 2017 :  06:22:09  Show Profile  Visit Bragi's Homepage Send Bragi a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm currently running a campaign with a player whose parents are from Ra-Khati. I'm planning on running through all of the original setting modules, with some slight modifications. My campaign is taking place during the Time of Troubles and I'm interweaving Velsharoon's ascendance in to the storyline.

Anyway, with regards to Eberron: there is a cannon connection between Faerûn and Eberron in Dragon Magazine 351. The article on the World Serpent Inn has major NPCs from several settings including Faerûn and Eberron. Just thought I'd mention it while it's fresh in mind.

In Pursuit of Better Worlds,
Bragi of Erin
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 31 Oct 2017 :  06:44:25  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, the whole 'only reach is through the Plane of Shadows' was from 3e. I have no idea what they did to EB in 4e.

Yeah, I'm not overly fond of EB being in the future myself - its was just a weird theory. I just think its in a similar situation as Abeir (which means there is no reason why Eberron - with all its attendant 'mini-planes' - couldn't also be Realmspace's Astral. AFAIK, no sphere has ever actually been named for EB, so it could floating around with Toril, just like Abeir, and we can't see it (or those satelite demi-planes).

I can't even find any information on a normal 'solar system' for Eberron - its just has those weird planes orbiting it, but those aren't planets - they are more like mini-Crystal Spheres. So if that what you 'see' if you are in the astral, then what do you 'see' if you are in normal space around Eberron? As far as I can tell, the sun and moons are just 'painted backdrop' (or rather, like a movie being projected onto a screen, because I don't see any info on their actually being a physical sun and moons - it has a plane of radiance and a plane of fire, and neither of those are EB's sun. So what if its 'out of sync' just like Abeir? And Realmspace IS its crystal Sphere (and our sun is its sun, etc). I'm thinking its half-in and half-out of the astral, and the mini-planes revolving around it are fully in the astral.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 31 Oct 2017 :  12:01:35  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

See, now this is weird.

I've been thinking about Eberron a lot lately, not in regards to trying to blend it with these others, but rather, in how its Crystal Sphere works. And one of the theories I've worked-out in my head is that it must not be in 'normal space'. Or rather, the Crytsal Sphere holding it isn't in the Phlogiston (Deep Ethereal), but rather, in the astral. This was just one take I had, but then I think I settled on something a bit more in-line with other D&D lore.

Now, for awhile I've thought Abeir was in the Astral, because it fits (right down to the silvery sky). I know a primordial is supposedly to blame for that, but we can always fudge that and just say 'its folklore'.

So even though I don't see any logical way to shunt Eberron into/onto Abeir, I have pictured both being Crystal Spheres within the Astral, rather than Ethereal (Phlogiston/SJ space).

I can easily put all those other settings on one planet, but we have a complete map of Eberron - the whole freakin' planet! There just is no way to shoe-horn that into something else. However, as I typed this, there may be a way of shoe-horning Abeir into Eberspace.

EDIT:
Possibility: Eberron is Abeir in the far future (considering how EB's cosmology goes back further than Core D&D, that might actually make the most sense). That would man Abeir (right now, for us, in Realmspace) should have those same mini-planes floating around it in orbit, in the astral. Because Abeir would still need some of those planes as well (like the elemental ones), but it can't be 'hooked into' the main (core) cosmology, because supposedly you can only reach it through the Shadowfell (and coincidentally, thats also the only canon way to reach Eberron from other D&D worlds as well).

The mythology of Eberron also works out nicely that way - Io becomes 'Eberron', Shar become Khyber, and Selûne becomes Siberys. They even the draconic pantheon as their constellations , which is perfect for Abeir.



While we could do something like this (and I have traversed this path as well), we do have canon lore stating that they do indeed share the same sun and moon and are occupying roughly the same space.

Personally, possibly the best idea we could come up with for the world twinning I think Abeir is by separating it into a separate timestream. If you were to view it from Temporal Prime, the twinning of the world would probably be an impassable event tangle in that section of the timestream, and following it the number of lifelines probably drastically reduces (as some of the folk died, and some transferred to a new world of substance. Right afterward, there's probably a forking where you could see both the timestream of Abeir and Toril. Then, when the spellplague came along, there was probably another event tangle where a massive number of lifelines intertwined again, followed by a mass reduction of both, then another at "the second sundering". Personally I bet from the timestream there's actually several of these types of interactions where the worlds bumped each other.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the same thing possibly happens at different times with some of the other planets of realmspace. Given the hatred of beholders for one another, this could be highly detrimental, and it may be why the beholders have several different factions on the world they have (forget its name).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 31 Oct 2017 :  16:41:56  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, my current 'mental exercise' is to see if I can drop Abeir into Eberron's cosmology, and THEN drop Eberron's cosmology in Realmspace. This would only be possible if Eberron's 'system' isn't like other worlds, and exists 'outside normal space'... which it does! EB's cosmos is almost like a system of self-contained, mini-Crystal Spheres.

What I picture is that Eberron is another world that exists 'out of sync' with normal space, and right now I am interpreting that to mean the astral. Most worlds exist within the Phlogiston (what I think is the 'Deep Ethereal'), but both Abeir and Eberron are different. Now, obviously they were never intended to be within the same system, but why the hell not? Why couldn't all of that be IN Realmspace, but invisible ('out of sync') to normal Spelljammers (who are operating in an entirely different plane)?

So if we picture Abeir as another world within Eberron's prime material (and I find it very bizarre that NOWHERE does EB material state what else is in there, other than Eberron itself), and that 'Prime Material' (really just a 'reality bubble', or 'Crystal Sphere') is the astral, then the rest of EB's cosmology finally starts to make sense. Eberron (and for the sake of this thought-exercise, Abeir) needs those other demi-planes around it because normally there are planes that worlds connect to that EB can't, because it's in the astral. Elemental planes, etc. It's like, in order to exist, a world needs to be connected to certain planes (mostly the elemental ones), otherwise life/magic just doesn't work. So someone/something (those cosmic dragons) created a fake mini-universe for Eberron, by building HUGE planet-shaped portals revolving around it. In fact, I think of EB's 'planes' as 'Gate Towns' (insanely huge ones) - they are in-between {demi}planes that connect EB to the lower planes, which are normally unreachable from the astral.

So right now I am looking at EB's 'planes' and its a complete mess. They don't even have all the elemental planes, and the air & fire ones also correspond to heavens & hells. Earth is missing completely, but there is an ice plane we can say is water (COLD water). So there goes my idea, mostly. There would be no reason for the others, except as I said, as sort-of 'Gate Towns', since the astral already connects to all of them. Maybe say that because its a 'closed sphere' (Athas has one of those) pieces of those other planes were isolated and made part of EB's system? Thus, those ARE just giant Gates, and you actually DO go to the real planes involved, but there is a 'dome' (sphere actually - it extends underground as well) which separates that portion from the rest? So somewhere in the Feywild there is the huge dome with Thelanis behind it, that the rest of Faerie can't get to? That works fairly well in some cases, but not in others (like Shavarath, where the Bloodwar is taking place). Maybe its one-way? And beings who go 'through the shield' can't get back? Still imperfect - why would 'the powers that be' even allow angels & fiends to get trapped like that? EB is just too weird to reconcile with the rest of D&D.

That doesn't mean we can't still put Abeir within EB's 'Prime Material', and have the two of them be within Realmspace's astral. We just don't have an explanation for those orbiting 'planes'... but then again, neither did the EB people... EVER.

EDIT:
Someone provided a link recently on Richard Baker's thoughts on the whole Eberron thing (and Spelljamming), and now I can't find that link... anyone got it?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 02 Nov 2017 02:50:34
Go to Top of Page

Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2441 Posts

Posted - 31 Oct 2017 :  23:38:12  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If you mean this one, is Keith Baker (yeah, odd when two of the designers have the same surname). If not... oops.

BTW, don't wanna be that guy, but... have you finished the Old Empires area of the map?


Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 31 Oct 2017 23:43:46
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 31 Oct 2017 :  23:49:49  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, that explains why I couldn't find it.

And no, I haven't finished it, and its so close, too. I'm glad you mentioned it, because I've been going back & forth so much between maps that I have to make a list of the ones I need to finish, ASAP, in order. I'll work on that all day tomorrow - that should get it done.

Then I NEED to finish the 'Nentir Vale in The North' conversion map, so that you can finish the lore book to go with it. I've been getting a lot of requests to finish that one (seems we aren't the only folks in love with the idea of sticking that there). It is my prettiest map to date.

Except for this slight detour into Eberron (and NO, I never plan to map that LOL), I've just given up on the cosmological musings for now. Except as a fun exercise, its rather pointless, and I need to prioritize things I think people can actually use to run their D&D games.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 01 Nov 2017 :  12:47:34  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Well, my current 'mental exercise' is to see if I can drop Abeir into Eberron's cosmology, and THEN drop Eberron's cosmology in Realmspace. This would only be possible if Eberron's 'system' isn't like other worlds, and exists 'outside normal space'... which it does! EB's cosmos is almost like a system of self-contained, mini-Crystal Spheres.

What I picture is that Eberron is another world that exists 'out of sync' with normal space, and right now I am interpreting that to mean the astral. Most worlds exist within the Phlogiston (what I think is the 'Deep Ethereal'), but both Abeir and Eberron are different. Now, obviously they were never intended to be within the same system, but why the hell not? Why couldn't all of that be IN Realmspace, but invisible ('out of sync') to normal Spelljammers (who are operating in an entirely different plane)?

So if we picture Abeir as another world within Eberron's prime material (and I find it very bizarre that NOWHERE does EB material state what else is in there, other than Eberron itself), and that 'Prime Material' (really just a 'reality bubble', or 'Crystal Sphere') is the astral, then the rest of EB's cosmology finally starts to make sense. Eberron (and for the sake of this thought-exercise, Abeir) needs those other demi-planes around it because normally there are planes that worlds connect to that EB can't, because it's in the astral. Elemental planes, etc. It's like, in order to exist, a world needs to be connected to certain planes (mostly the elemental ones), otherwise life/magic just doesn't work. So someone/something (those cosmic dragons) created a fake mini-universe for Eberron, by building HUGE planet-shaped portals revolving around it. In fact, I think of EB's 'planes' as 'Gate Towns' (insanely huge ones) - they are in-between {demi}planes that connect EB to the lower planes, which are normally unreachable from the astral.

So right now I am looking at EB's 'planes' and its a complete mess. They don't even have all the elemental planes, and the air & fire ones also correspond to heavens & hells. Earth is missing completely, but there is an ice plane we can say is water (COLD water). So there goes my idea, mostly. There would be no reason for the others, except as I said, as sort-of 'Gate Towns', since the astral already connects to all of them. Maybe say that because its a 'closed sphere' (Athas has one of those) pieces of those other planes were isolated and made part of EB's system? Thus, those ARE just giant Gates, and you actually DO go to the real planes involved, but there is a 'dome' (sphere actually - it extends underground as well) which separates that portion fro the rest? So somewhere in the Feywild there is the huge dome with Thelanis behind it, that the rest of Faerie can't get to? That works fairly well in some cases, but not in others (like Shavarath, where the Bloodwar is taking place). Maybe its one-way? And beins who go 'through the shield' can't get back? Still imperfect - why would 'the powers that be' even allow angles & fiends to get trapped like that? EB is just too weird to reconcile with the rest of D&D.

That doesn't mean we can't still put Abeir within EB's 'Prime Material', and have the two of them be within Realmspace's astral. We just don't have an explanation for those orbiting 'planes'... but then again, neither do the EB people... EVER.

EDIT:
Someone provided a link recently on Richard Baker's thoughts on the whole Eberron thing (and Spelljamming), and now I can't find that link... anyone got it?



I could buy that Eberron and Abeir are in the same "crystal sphere" and that said crystal sphere is "realmspace"... but that the two "universes" are out of phase with one another. So, essentially realmspace's shell contains two separate "sets" of planets that are out of phase with each other.

This of course though would have consequences. For instance, Abeir is supposed to be using power sources based upon the titans, but Eberron is more arcanely powered than Abeir. Of course, this can be explained through some method. Both worlds have a strong investment in dreams. During the spellplague or possibly right before it, I know that Eberron established a link to Toril (I think it was afterward) according to video game lore, so one could say that these worlds "bumped" somehow.

It may even be something where there is more than a twinning of worlds, but possibly the realmspace crystal sphere has several "out of phase" prime materials, and Abeir is one, Athas another, Eberron another, Birthright another, etc.... and each has access to certain planes that "rotate" into conjunction with them and only Eberron has truly tracked this well.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 02 Nov 2017 :  02:58:55  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, what if Toril is just one more plane/world that Eberron (and Abeir, which is canon) become 'coterminous' with from time to time?

On the other hand, because of their 'out of sync' nature, those other planes within Eberspace do not affect Toril (or the other physical worlds of Realmspace) not nearly as much as they do Eberron, and perhaps Abeir, but they would still affect it a little bit when they 'overlapped'. That would be kinda cool - add another layer onto FR's magical lore.

So either Abeir and Eberron are in some weird biary orbit around each other (which is unlikely, considering they can't be close because they don't see each other, and they can't be far because of EB's other wacky, orbiting planes), or Abeir orbits Eberron like those other planes. That mean Abeir can become coterminous with those other planes, but not with Eberron.

What if Abeir is Khyber?

What if... Abeir is Eberron's Hollow Earth?
After all, its not like they see the sun, or the sky, or anything but silver...

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 02 Nov 2017 03:00:18
Go to Top of Page

Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2441 Posts

Posted - 02 Nov 2017 :  05:39:41  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Cannot be Khyber. Abeir is not full of demons and daelkyrs. And Khyber have no dragons, that are the majority in Abeir.

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 02 Nov 2017 05:42:18
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 02 Nov 2017 :  07:16:42  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, I realized that, and then I switched my train-of-thought toward the end there.

If we use a Hollow Earth Model, you can see there it says the crust is about 800 miles thick (I've seen some as little as 400, and others as high as 1200 miles, and if that was actually to it's own scale, that looks to be 2000). Regardless, even if its as little as 400 miles (which is way too thin), thats still plenty of room for Drow, Illithids, Aboleths, The Devil, Morlocks, Superman's Molemen, The FF's Molemen, Godzilla, etc, etc... just in the crust. Plenty of room for Khyber as well.

Then Abeir would be the inside of the sphere; the center atmosphere would be filled with the silvery stuff (the atomized primordial), and the folks wouldn't be able to see the center sun, or even tell they are in a Hollow World.

It would work. Funky as hell, but its do-able.

On the other hand, it might just be simpler to say screw Eberrron (its cosmology makes my head hurt), and do the same thing, but instead put Abeir inside Toril. Thus, the same primordials are 'buried' from both points of view. And Mystra's Weave can't penetrate the gravity well at the center of the crust (The Shadoweave might be able to, depending on which of a hundred definitions we are using). Guys like the Elemental Lords are able to go back and forth (through the 'holes in the poles'), otherwise the deities have to stay topside, and the primordials have to stay below. I'm sure certain dragons would know as well, but the ones ruling the Underworld (Abeir) would be fine staying where they are.

Also, Ibrandul probably knew the truth, and even knew a few 'secret ways' to go back & forth, which could be why Shar ate him.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 02 Nov 2017 07:17:59
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 02 Nov 2017 :  17:05:59  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
nah, the whole thing of varying levels of magic makes mixing these worlds problematic. The idea of all of these various worlds being coterminous to the FR crystal sphere though does work, since these appear to be "closed spheres".

In fact, it may be that these other worlds can't access the "shell" of the crystal sphere to get to the phlogiston. They each might have wildspace and maybe spelljammers work within their "phase" of the crystal sphere, but the "phlogiston" is only reachable from realmspace. Of course, that doesn't mean that these other places can't reach OTHER planes (for instance, Eberron may be able to access some of the same outer planes as Toril can). It would mean also that these worlds do occasionally "bump" into one another. This could explain gods transferring as well, because we know from the 3.5 Player's Guide to Faerun this

Toril actually connects to several different Astral Planes, each one linking Toril’s Material Plane to the outer-planar homes of a different group of deities. These Astral Planes are based on the geographical areas of control held by the different pantheons. The Astral Plane known to characters in Faerûn leads to the planes of the Faerûnian pantheon, as well as the nonhuman pantheons (whose geographical area of control overlaps that of the Faerûnian deities) and the Mulhorandi pantheon. Characters in other areas can enter different Astral Planes with links to the Outer Planes inhabited by their own deities. Ao is thought to supervise the separate Astral Planes just as he adjudicates conflicts between the pantheons.

and especially this from the same source

ZAKHARAN PLANES
The Astral Plane of Zakhara connects to the same elemental planes that connect with Faerûn, as well as to a plane where the souls of the righteous are rewarded (the Garden of Delight) and one where the wicked are punished (the Place of Fire). The many genies that are so active in Zakhara live on the elemental planes, while the deities of the Zakharan faiths live either on the Material Plane in Zakhara itself or on some other plane unknown to mortals and unreachable from the Material Plane.

and this concerning LOST divine domains

LOST PLANES
When deities or entire pantheons die, the planes they called home apparently cease to exist. One theory holds that they simply implode without any divine power to sustain them . Another theory maintains that the Astral Plane expels them, and they drift somehow outside it, severed from their connections to other planes.

The largest of these lost planes is Zigguraxus, former home of the Untheric pantheon. With its demise or disappearance, Tiamat has relocated to Dragon Eyrie. The planes and realms of the dead gods have also vanished from Toril’s cosmology. These include Amaunator’s Keep of the Eternal Sun, Bhaal’s Throne of Blood, Ibrandul’s Ibrandyllaran, Leira’s Courts of Illusion, and Moander’s Offalmound.

Occasionally a slain deity’s realm is taken over by another deity before it can vanish. This was the case with Myrkul’s Bone Castle on the Fugue Plane, which is now inhabited by Kelemvor, who transformed it into the Crystal Spire.


So, part of what I've posited is that there are two theories listed above. The popular theory on Toril for dweomerheart was the first one.... that it imploded. However, we don't have like someone with a snapshot of the divine realm exploding. We have hearsay and conjecture, because there is no way that I can think of that anyone on Toril can validate this. So, I choose to believe the second... it became unattached to the Faerunian Pantheon's astral plane... and it and several of these "loose" divine realms specifically mentioned became attached to Abeir instead of Toril. I'm currently working that idea with something from last week that badcatman mentioned with the beacon of light artifact calling Ptah and then working in Anubis as another deity with "connections" to Ptah. If anyone can reattach divine realms, I'd say its those two working together. I actually may end up doing some research on a lot of Faerunian divine artifacts and end up destroying them to bring back dead gods or possibly awaken primordials (beacon of light, blood of Lathander, Karse Stone (technically the stone body of a dead god... that bleeds), we've been talking about bloodforges, etc....).



Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 02 Nov 2017 :  20:23:04  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
EDIT:
This really all belonged in the cosmology thread - it has almost nothing to do with Toril itself


I always pictured a deity's 'Divine Realm' as being the body of the deity itself. Basically, that IS the deity, so if it dies, it goes away (it actually becomes one of those 'dead gods' floating in the astral). As such, it loses its connections to other planes/cosmologies (the God is no longer around to maintain these 'conduits'). However, since gods never truly die, just go comatose (sometimes for eternity), it is possible to reawaken a god. The funy thing is, Gods don't actually GO anywhere - the astral is where they always are, regardless of what other lore may imply. They ARE their Domain, and they can create an avatar within themselves (if you are familiar with One Piece, like how the character Capone Bege is, who ate the Castle Castle fruit). They can also create avatars to go visit other gods, realms, or mortals, but THAT is never really them. They are their mind - they are pure consciousness, and their Domain is whatever they want it to be. And when they die (go comatose), their realm no longer has direction - a conscious will - to guide it, so it just becomes a blank slate, like a movie screen with nothing being projected onto it.

This is why they are only truly vulnerable in their domain - because its the only time other beings are actually in contact with the god.

This doesn't preclude anything you've said above - realms become 'untethered' when a god's power is failing. It may even be able to keep ts realm somewhat active, it just doesn't have enough power to maintain full-time conduits and Gates (I picture Gates more like immense connections - basically how mortals picture their God's domain being IN a specific plane, but the truth is, thats only an extremely large connection - its not really there. This is why some Godly Realms can be on multiple planes at once (they're really not - the god is just powerful enough to maintain several very large permanent gates).

This also explains why some deities bother with an afterlife, and others don't (their followers simply go to the plane closest to them in alignment). If a God loses all his earthly (Prime Material) followers, he still has his local 'fanbase' to keep him active, even if he doesn't have enough power to keep his Gates (and conduits, which are more like 'cosmic hallways') open. His realm persists, 'adrift' (and as I said, that's just how mortals perceive it - those Realms - the Gods themselves - are really ALWAYS adrift). Gods who don't bother with an afterlife (which also cost 'power' to maintain) don't have that back-up contingency, hence gods like Moandor, who go completely dormant until some new idiot learns about them an d sarts the process all over again.

Now, in the case of Kiaransalee, thats an interesting problem. If her petitioners were in her realm, they should have been able to at least maintain it, even it was 'set adrift', but if her petitioners forgot about her, what then? Also, The Dead do slowly lose their memories over time, so that means a god who has lost their mortal following but still has their divine realm (afterlife) will only have so long before they become completely comatose themselves (and the petitioners simply dissolve into the 'planestuff' of the dead god). I figure a few centuries, at most, depending on how big a realm the god had maintained before. This may be why some gods desperately appeal to other gods and become their subordinates (or get subsumed by them).

Because Gods can share realms as well, and pool their resources. This is how the pantheons work. They can maintain VERY large domains because they are pooling all their power (and still maintaining individual 'residences' within, which is really just a 'bubble' where they keep their separate consciousness, so they don't wind up getting absorbed into a pantheonic Overmind (this probably happens with a lot of the lesser deities in pantheons like the Greek). Those 'D list' gods become like exarchs (proxies) of the Domain itself. thus, with all the Gods putting energy into a Pantheon pool' to power the Domain, the Domain itself becomes almost like an artificial God (and that's how pantheists work, within the D&D mechanics). The Pantheon Domain (Asgard, Mt. Olympus, etc) becomes this artificial Unimind that answers prayers (it can't really interact with mortals though, just act as a two-way conduit for the gods). However, I can see some truly ancient godly Realms gaining a sentience of their own, because of how long they've been around - the Realms of the dead in FR may be like that. In fact, most realms of the dead may have their own, low-level awareness.

This also helps explain (somewhat) how duel-aspected, tripartite, or other multi-deities function. Two or three (or more) pieces of 'godly awareness' utilize the Domain itself to form an avatar for their combined selves. Such things are only possible within pantheons, becomes of the unimind structure which governs the domain. Also, most pantheons with their own pantheon-domain are multisperic... I'd go so far as to say ALL of them are. Note that in world-specific pantheons (like Faerûn's), the gods maintain SEPARATE Realms, for the most part. the small 'god clusters' they do work and live together are almost always like-minded, and have very similar goals, so no true pantheons there (which need to run the full gamut of the human condition and natural forces). I use a term I stole from Kurt Vonnegutt to describe those false, mini-pantheons: A Karass. They can never have any true power or sentience because they are not balanced.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 02 Nov 2017 20:24:20
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 02 Nov 2017 :  20:36:56  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So to bring this back around (sort of), we were talking about these 'drifting planes' in regards to Eberron (and ostensibly, how to use some of that in FR). Eberron doesn't really have any 'true' Gods (if it does, they're awfully damn aloof). But what if it did at one time? What if each of those orbiting demi-planes is really the realm of a sleeping God? people lost faith in their gods, and now the gods are in a coma, but the Realms endure because of the 'people' (really, petitioners) there.

And the residual power of the three 'Dragons' (Drækons in my Over-cosmology, which is just a fancy word for the upper echelon of {Prim}Ordials) is what keeps them locked to Eberron, instead of simply drifting away. We wouldn't need to use Eberron's (unless you are still thinking about Eberron being in FR's Astral, but I'm past that) demiplanes to use this bit in The Realms - FR could have its own 'satellite' planes drifting about, or in orbits around the worlds those 'dead gods' were attached to. In other words, although 'dead gods' can be floating anywhere in the astral, it makes the most sense if they are drifting relatively close to the worlds they were connected to (unless its a dead multipheric power, but those have got to be extremely rare).

Mulan Gods & their Realms:
The problem I have with what happened to the Mulan pantheons in 4e is that those gods came from other patheons/worlds, and that means they should NOT have 'died', and their realms should NOT have perished. Only the FR-specific realm some of them may have shared. They'd still have their Main Realms in the Great Wheel cosmology. Of course, if the Babylonian, Sumerian, and Pharonic pantheons are no longer active on Terra (Earth), it could very well be they did disappear with the Spellplague (although I'd like to think not).

EDIT:
The Pharonics definitely didn't die - they are too all-pervasive in so many settings. The same might be said for the Norse pantheon, although we only have one of those... I think. Helm might be Heimdal. I can't think of any settings off the top of my head that use the Sumerian and Babylonian, unless they are also active in GH/Oerth.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 02 Nov 2017 20:41:34
Go to Top of Page

Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2441 Posts

Posted - 02 Nov 2017 :  21:01:31  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

On the other hand, it might just be simpler to say screw Eberrron (its cosmology makes my head hurt)


I second this. We already have a lot of stuff to work with Realms materials to try to import other D&D materials that might be troublesome.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

from the 3.5 Player's Guide to Faerun this

Toril actually connects to several different Astral Planes, each one linking Toril’s Material Plane to the outer-planar homes of a different group of deities.


3.5 and its special ability to make simple stuff complicated because reasons. Is there a necessity for multiple astral planes? I guess I now understand why the developers ended up creating the World Axis in 4e... the cosmology indeed was a mess.

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 02 Nov 2017 21:01:58
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 02 Nov 2017 :  21:53:03  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Actually, I don't know why it says that there, in the 3e FR book, when nowhere else in D&D s that the case, in ANY edition. There has always been 'one astral' in this (D&D) universe. There may be other astrals, but they would be in other universe's. Technically, thanks to SJ, D&D is a universe, NOT a multiverse, because you can physically travel to any other point within the D&D Prime Material. On the other hand, if you count the planes, you may be able to consider it a multiverse, but not in the typical sense (those are just 'layers' within the same universe).

The D&D universe should be part of BOTH DC and Marvel comics multiverse's (and they are considered part of each other's, but that doesn't really get discussed now that they've stopped doing crossovers). I can prove this with a game of 'Seven degrees of Kevin Bacon', using D&D as Kevin Bacon (the guy has the word 'bacon' in his name... whats not to love?!) The D&Dverse has it own Earth (Gothic Earth... although its probably not so Gothic anymore), so that would be the Earth-designation in DC/Marvel speak (Earth 666? Just to annoy the Catholics again?) Anyhow, my point is that the Main Marvel universe and the prime DC universe (I don't even know what numbers those are anymore) both have their own astrals - they aren't connected to each other via the astral, at all, otherwise Doctor Strange could go universe-hopping whenever he felt like it. Neither are the ethereals, if you still use that. Each has its own Faerie (Feywild) as well. The Shadowfell 'may' be the local (D&Dverse) portion of even greater plane of Shadows, which holds ALL the mutiverse's, but the distances between them would be so vast even Uber-Gods wouldn't bother wasting a few trillion years trying to get to another one (it would be like moving at Light Speed between galaxies).

So anyway, I do tend to ramble (I need to focus on these maps!), but there is only one 'astral' per universe. Now, if you want to say there are 'bubbles' within the astral where portions of it are locked-out of the rest, that's fine. The lore may pretend that's a separate astral if it wants, but it isn't; not really.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 03 Nov 2017 08:22:40
Go to Top of Page

Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2441 Posts

Posted - 02 Nov 2017 :  23:10:24  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Actually, I don't know why it says that there, in the 3e FR book, when nowhere else in D&D s that the case, in ANY edition. There has always been 'one astral' in this (D&D) universe. There may be other astrals, but they would be in other universe's. Technically, thanks to SJ, D&D is a universe, NOT a multiverse, because you can physically travel to any other point within the D&D Prime Material. On the other hand, if you **** the planes, you may be able to consider it a multiverse, but not in the typical sense (those are just 'layers' within the same universe).



Don't they acknowledge our homebrew worlds and homebrew versions of published worlds as valid worlds compared to the official, published ones?

That would make D&D a multiverse. There is the Material Plane were "official universe" (the published one) is located, and a miriad of Material Planes were our homebrew worlds and our home versions of the Realms and other worlds are located.

But yes, you should focus in the map If you begin with the Old Empires area and publish at least that part, I wouldn't complain.

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 02 Nov 2017 23:17:51
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 02 Nov 2017 :  23:13:06  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

On the other hand, it might just be simpler to say screw Eberrron (its cosmology makes my head hurt)


I second this. We already have a lot of stuff to work with Realms materials to try to import other D&D materials that might be troublesome.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

from the 3.5 Player's Guide to Faerun this

Toril actually connects to several different Astral Planes, each one linking Toril’s Material Plane to the outer-planar homes of a different group of deities.


3.5 and its special ability to make simple stuff complicated because reasons. Is there a necessity for multiple astral planes? I guess I now understand why the developers ended up creating the World Axis in 4e... the cosmology indeed was a mess.



Honestly, I didn't even realize this during the era of 3.5e. However, the more I've delved the concepts of outer planar interactions, the more I've come to realize that while confusing, this system makes it very easy to do something that seems absolutely impossible and still make it work.

For instance, if we take this same concept and apply it to Abeir.... it has its own "astral"/"ethereal". Via its "astral" you might be able to connect to the elemental planes with gates. Then again, its "astral" may have been like the "spirit world" instead, with this spirit world having connections to the elemental chaos.... Then they may have also have had another plane that you could only transfer to in your dreams.... and then these drifting divine realms may have gotten attached to the realm of dreams and used it as an alternate "astral".

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2441 Posts

Posted - 02 Nov 2017 :  23:50:02  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't see a problem with multiple Astral planes per see, but the concept is totally unnecessary (even in 3e) and adds more complications to the table (as in more rules for spells and planar travels). Not to mention the fact that current lore (4e/5e) treats everything as "in the same place (mortal worlds? All in the same Prime Material, even wayward Eberron; All mortal worlds share the same Astral, Ethereal, elemental planes, Feywild and Shadowfell and Elemental Chaos, etc.). A concept of "multiple Astrals" does contradict that.

There wasn't already a concept of Deep and Border Ethereal? We can have the same with the Astral plane, instead of making things overly complicated with multiple Astral (that means, more rules for Astral stuff). You can even say that there are multiple Border Astrals and every one is separated from the other, if you want isolated pockets in the Astral plane.

You can even take the World Axis concept of the Astral Sea and make "Astral shores" (local sections of the Astral plane in a given mortal world).

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 02 Nov 2017 :  23:57:28  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

So to bring this back around (sort of), we were talking about these 'drifting planes' in regards to Eberron (and ostensibly, how to use some of that in FR). Eberron doesn't really have any 'true' Gods (if it does, they're awfully damn aloof). But what if it did at one time? What if each of those orbiting demi-planes is really the realm of a sleeping God? people lost faith in their gods, and now the gods are in a coma, but the Realms endure because of the 'people' (really, petitioners) there.




Eberrons planes would make a good comparison for Abeir's. Its outer planes NOT having gods... it having something like an elemental plane of fire in Fernia, etc... yet these planes have things like demons and devils which would work for not having to include an abyss / hell, etc...

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 3 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Previous Page | Next Page
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2024 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000