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Starshade
Learned Scribe

Norway
279 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2017 :  21:48:26  Show Profile Send Starshade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ayrik: you mean like in real martial arts, right? MA's learn from each other, adapting.
My experience though: You got right.
Though real MA's in my experience is not often that "honest", about age, lineage or where they have learnt it. The question is, are elves more honest than humans?
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2017 :  04:49:35  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Elven lifetimes are measured in multiple centuries (or millennia). So it would take elves a much longer time to "forget" the origins of an art or its masters and the art itself could propagate much further before it fell from memory to history to legend to myth. Humans hardly live a single century and can barely seem to remember anyone more than two generations removed, so to humans a 200-year-old martial art could be thought as "ancient" and have grown to mythical (even ridiculous) stature.

I think elves are no less prone than humans towards exaggeration, elaboration, and fabrication. They just have a "smaller" community and a stronger continuity, it's more difficult to be misinformed/disinformed, or to misinform/disinform others, when they (and all they know) are interconnected through fewer degrees of separation. For the legend (and "lost" style) of a bladesinger (and his "blade") to become as "mythical" to elves as a figure like King Arthur (along with Excalibur) is to humans would take many, many millennia. We've seen countless nations and peoples and even a few civilizations come and go since King Arthur's time, the world circa 2017AD is incomprehensibly distant from the world circa 500AD, but elves could easily bridge such a distance (vicariously) through conversations with their own parents and grandparents.

If bladesong is associated (through myth) with the Seldarine or (through legend) with distant events like the Crown Wars then it might also have "religious" significance to elves, a thing to be revered and preserved and respected (and studied and debated intensely over many elven lifetimes), a thing so important to remember as it is that it simply cannot be twisted and forgotten. If bladesong was ever instrumental in assuring elven survival or domination then it might also be a fiercely protected "secret" which would never be disseminated to outsiders.

Elves are generally quite content to allow foreign-elves, non-elves, and other ignorant folks remain woefully ignorant (and even dangerously misinformed/disinformed) about something that (in the elven view) is meant to concern only elves.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 14 Aug 2017 05:09:20
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4425 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2017 :  09:05:08  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik


If bladesong is associated (through myth) with the Seldarine or (through legend) with distant events like the Crown Wars then it might also have "religious" significance to elves, a thing to be revered and preserved and respected (and studied and debated intensely over many elven lifetimes), a thing so important to remember as it is that it simply cannot be twisted and forgotten. If bladesong was ever instrumental in assuring elven survival or domination then it might also be a fiercely protected "secret" which would never be disseminated to outsiders.

Elves are generally quite content to allow foreign-elves, non-elves, and other ignorant folks remain woefully ignorant (and even dangerously misinformed/disinformed) about something that (in the elven view) is meant to concern only elves.



That's the way I've always viewed it. Aside from the novel Bladesinger, where there actually was a school for bladesingers, its usually passed down from one master to a pupil for intimate study and practice. This is also see in most of the mechanics of Bladesingers as you need to be elf or half-elf to partake (sans 4e "officially" but I made it so anyways).

Its also a great reason why we have approximations in terms of other "gish" styles. For example take 3rd Edition's Eldritch Knight prestige class and Duskblade. It's not a Bladesinger and yet blends the fighting of magic and steel. Same with 4e's Swordmage class and and 5e's version of Eldritch Knight too. I've always taken this a humanity's attempt to simulate or replicate Elven Bladesong.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2017 :  12:50:25  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Starshade

Ayrik: you mean like in real martial arts, right? MA's learn from each other, adapting.
My experience though: You got right.
Though real MA's in my experience is not often that "honest", about age, lineage or where they have learnt it. The question is, are elves more honest than humans?



Of course. Elves will tell you to your face how they are definitely more honest than humans. Also they will tell humans how superior elven magic is in all ways to human magic. Also, they will tell humans how much better they are at s3x. Oh, and of course their wines are also better, and their art. Naturally, it must all be true or they wouldn't say it.

Oh, excuse me, someone wants to talk to me about buying a bridge at a very good price. Wow, its a really nice, big bridge, and he says I could charge everyone that uses it a toll, even the local baron. Oh, won't that be funny, him paying taxes to me for once. The guys just has to sell it right away too because he needs quick cash to help his poor sick grandmother.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Starshade
Learned Scribe

Norway
279 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2017 :  21:15:05  Show Profile Send Starshade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070228
I suddenly remembered this article. Duskblades is described as a martial tradition originating from bladesinger traditions, according to this article.
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2441 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2017 :  21:46:53  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Then you have the 4e Swordmages, whose techniques (at least, the Torilian ones) are originated from the bladesinger traditions as well.

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4425 Posts

Posted - 15 Aug 2017 :  00:23:44  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Then you have the 4e Swordmages, whose techniques (at least, the Torilian ones) are originated from the bladesinger traditions as well.



I wish they did more flavor and lore for the 4E Eldritch Knights. It was just a Dragon article but its a lot of fun and really fit the concept that the Duskblade filled (conceptually speaking).
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2441 Posts

Posted - 15 Aug 2017 :  01:17:05  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
IHMO, swordmages are the 4e duskblades. Mind, swordmages draw from many traditions. The Torilian swordmages (or duskblades in 3e) may have originated from a more melee oriented bladesingers, but the Abeiran swordmages (such as the Anarchs of Shyr) are heirs of a totally different tradition, unrelated with bladesingers (yet, incredibly similar to it).

So, having eldritch knights (swordmages/duskblades) alongside bladesingers in 5e is a totally cool decision.

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...
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Diffan
Great Reader

USA
4425 Posts

Posted - 15 Aug 2017 :  01:40:07  Show Profile Send Diffan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

IHMO, swordmages are the 4e duskblades. Mind, swordmages draw from many traditions. The Torilian swordmages (or duskblades in 3e) may have originated from a more melee oriented bladesingers, but the Abeiran swordmages (such as the Anarchs of Shyr) are heirs of a totally different tradition, unrelated with bladesingers (yet, incredibly similar to it).


I see that. The blending of weapon and spell in a harmonious style is definitely reminiscent of what the 3e Duskblade did. Really my only issue is with the Swordsage's penchant for light armor and using their Aegis and Warding features to bolster their defenses over traditional armor and shields. 3E Duskblades used both armor and shields. The 4E Eldritch Knight continues the tradition of heavy armor and shields while teleporting ALL over the place (really, they teleport a LOT more than the Swordmages, at least once per round!) and sort of supports the imagery from Eytan's wonderfully written article of them for the Realms.

quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

So, having eldritch knights (swordmages/duskblades) alongside bladesingers in 5e is a totally cool decision.



Agreed! I love that there's multiple ways to play a similar concept.
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
1280 Posts

Posted - 20 Aug 2017 :  20:15:55  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As for the origin of the bladesong, I usually go to the fey history of the elves, before they even walked on Toril but after they began settling material worlds.

I am partial to the myth that the art of the bladesong was created by Corellon himself at the Seelie Court, before he ascended to godhood. The impossibly thin seelie-knight most likely used the bladesong with his star-crafted sword sahandrian at that time, explosively carving the path for his later creations through giant and dragon infested universes.

I usually tie study of the bladesong to lodges, recognizable by their totem animal. These are in turn organised by the relic-weapons and their secret techniques passed down and/or copied at the totem animal lodge. The more popular Cat, Wolf and Lion lodges favor (baskethilted) shortswords, bastard swords, and longswords, while the rarely seen Bear and Boar lodges practice axes and cudgels, and the reclusive Hawk and Eagle lodges train with shortspear and its unorthodox techniques.

These ancient lodges are so respected largely because the trained techniques come from a time when fighting foes many times your size was commonplace since the world was dominated by giantkin and dragonkind who typically dwarf elves and the demi-human races in both size and elemental ability. This lead to the elves creating powerful arms and armor, and developing techniques to use them to both effectively and creatively against far mightier foes. The balanced forms and fortified enchantments probably worked as a anchor against the brute force of Giants and the dancelike evasive steps combined with timely abjurations might have frustrated dragon ferocity. Those early bladesingers surviving giant and dragon encounters could pass on the techniques that worked, and probably were essential in the early spread of the elven race across the multiverse.

Several members of those lodges might have settled on Toril during the interloping years of the elves. I named the Sun and Moon elven ones the White Lion, Black Cat and Grey Wolf lodges, while the Avariel and Sea-Elves had some time independently developing the lance based Sky Hawk and harpoon based Sea Hawk lodge.

My campaign sketches

Druidic Groves

Creature Feature: Giant Spiders
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1600 Posts

Posted - 29 Aug 2017 :  12:03:25  Show Profile Send Barastir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is a nice history entry, and cool styles. I've also made my own style's list a few years ago, including not only the present schools and masters and where can you find them, but also the stories of lost schools or styles. But 5e canon now brings something, in the SCAG.

"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."

The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood)
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