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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe
USA
486 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Aug 2017 : 02:51:49
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Sociology is one of my academic strong points, so I decided to try to apply theories I studied over the years.
Conflict Theory: Various different groups of individuals work against each other to improve their own standings. Example: The lower classes of Dambrath b.s. the Llothite and Loviatarite elite.
Strain Theory: Individuals may struggle against conformity and feel pressured to act differently. Example: Knights of the North around the Moonsea area.
Differential Association Theory: Individuals from different backgrounds hold different values than others (i.e.: acceptable vs unacceptable behavior). Example: Eillistaeeite Drow vs Menzoberranzite/Llothite Drow.
I'll work on more later. What do you folks think?
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Galuf's Baldur's Gate NPC stats: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8823
Galuf's 3.5 Ed. Cleric Domains: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14036
Galuf's Homebrew 4th Edition Races: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13787
Galuf's Homebrew Specialty Priest PrCs: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14353
Galuf's Forgotten Realms Heralds and Allies thread: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8766 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2017 : 03:36:13
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I think I got a 'D' is sociology because I never handed-in my term paper. The subject matter was BORING, and me and boring don't mix (not the field of study - just the place my professor wanted us to write about... HIS HOME TOWN).
I've tried to apply RW sociology to the Realms, but it breaks down quickly. In a world with multiple races (and so many INSANELY powerful ones), one group would have rose to the top and dominated/killed all others long ago.
Scify and fantasy like to portray humans as 'the great leveler' - that we force everyone else to get along with each other, just 'cause we are the goodest of the goodly good'. Thats just not realistic. Orcs would be working the mines, halflings would be picking our crops, elves would be... well... you don't want to know what we would do to elves. Just apply human history, and then use your imagination. If we did that to our own kind, imagine what we would do with people who actually were 'less than human'. If I was another (early) race, and I saw primitive humans 'on the rise', I'd wipe them all out while we still could. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2017 : 05:47:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I think I got a 'D' is sociology because I never handed-in my term paper. The subject matter was BORING, and me and boring don't mix (not the field of study - just the place my professor wanted us to write about... HIS HOME TOWN).
I've tried to apply RW sociology to the Realms, but it breaks down quickly. In a world with multiple races (and so many INSANELY powerful ones), one group would have rose to the top and dominated/killed all others long ago.
LOL. I got an A in Sociology, but I agree with you. It is just not something we can easily apply to the Realms. If we tried bad things would result. 
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Scify and fantasy like to portray humans as 'the great leveler' - that we force everyone else to get along with each other, just 'cause we are the goodest of the goodly good'. Thats just not realistic. Orcs would be working the mines, halflings would be picking our crops, elves would be... well... you don't want to know what we would do to elves. Just apply human history, and then use your imagination. If we did that to our own kind, imagine what we would do with people who actually were 'less than human'.
Yeah, we'd screw them out of existence, both literally and figuratively. We'd have sex with and breed with anything we could breed with and then enslave or kill the rest. The alternative is that we get enslaved or killed first--which is far more likely, in reality. We already had a test run of this in the real world with other highly intelligent great apes--see the Neanderthals and Homo erectus. Where are they now? Dead and some people have Neanderthal DNA. Thus, question basically answered.
The only real question left is whether or not they get us before we get them. That would entirely depend upon the technology/magic of those who are more 'advanced.' Again, looking at our own history, those with technological superiority tend to dominate those without it.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
If I was another (early) race, and I saw primitive humans 'on the rise', I'd wipe them all out while we still could.
If only the Elves had listened to the Eldreth Veluuthra, maybe they wouldn't have had to go hide on an island in the middle of the ocean.  |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11689 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2017 : 06:20:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Orcs would be working the mines, halflings would be picking our crops, elves would be... well... you don't want to know what we would do to elves.
Um, I kinda want to know what we would do to elves... can you describe it in visual detail... kind of in slow motion? Just the elven females mind you. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Adhriva
Learned Scribe
USA
147 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2017 : 17:14:37
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Orcs would be working the mines, halflings would be picking our crops, elves would be... well... you don't want to know what we would do to elves.
Um, I kinda want to know what we would do to elves... can you describe it in visual detail... kind of in slow motion? Just the elven females mind you.
Oh I couldn't help but give a passing try at composing something.....
"I once saw elf maids dancing there;
"In the Elfwood I glance a magic
"Of maidens lovely and fair. Lovely and fair!
"Who danced about without their fabric!"
"As I live and die, I will declare:
"No elf-lad will keep me away unfair
"Or dissuade me from this affair
"With the elf maid, flowers in her hair!"
"Are there elf-lads mocking in rhythmic
"About honeyed maids with flowers in their hair?
"For it was not so wise to frolic
"As that maiden, oh lovely and fair
"To my dismay, was really a Mimic;
"Oh dear, oh dear, not lovely and fair!"
EDIT: Toyed with a quick line or two |
Professional illustrator and comic book artist.
Portfolio |
Edited by - Adhriva on 06 Aug 2017 19:13:20 |
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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe
USA
486 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2017 : 19:19:47
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| Okay, I was looking for a critique on my observations, not on Sociology itself and comparing real life society and the Realms. |
Galuf's Baldur's Gate NPC stats: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8823
Galuf's 3.5 Ed. Cleric Domains: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14036
Galuf's Homebrew 4th Edition Races: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13787
Galuf's Homebrew Specialty Priest PrCs: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14353
Galuf's Forgotten Realms Heralds and Allies thread: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8766 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11689 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2017 : 22:20:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Adhriva
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Orcs would be working the mines, halflings would be picking our crops, elves would be... well... you don't want to know what we would do to elves.
Um, I kinda want to know what we would do to elves... can you describe it in visual detail... kind of in slow motion? Just the elven females mind you.
Oh I couldn't help but give a passing try at composing something.....
"I once saw elf maids dancing there;
"In the Elfwood I glance a magic
"Of maidens lovely and fair. Lovely and fair!
"Who danced about without their fabric!"
"As I live and die, I will declare:
"No elf-lad will keep me away unfair
"Or dissuade me from this affair
"With the elf maid, flowers in her hair!"
"Are there elf-lads mocking in rhythmic
"About honeyed maids with flowers in their hair?
"For it was not so wise to frolic
"As that maiden, oh lovely and fair
"To my dismay, was really a Mimic;
"Oh dear, oh dear, not lovely and fair!"
EDIT: Toyed with a quick line or two
Lol, that was cute.... but now I'm afear'd of putting my hoo hoo where it should go on account I might find out that its suddenly grown teeth..... just keep telling myself, magic ain't real... magic ain't real... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2017 : 23:21:00
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Sociology? Not really my Field, though I'd imagine the world of D&D would give "agency" to Objects in ways Bruno Latour not really imagined when he wrote "we have never been modern" 
From Latour's view, a dead object in real life still got "agency", the ability to influence the networks. So, when we enter D&D with sociological theories for dead, inanimate matter, and gods walk the Earth, Magic items speak. I do not think the sociological theories break, just need to work with Magic and Gods as network nodes, both with some degree of Independent ability to act. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2017 : 20:40:48
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The Realms is very different from the RW, but it is still "recognizable", even if it's a fantasy setting (and this is why I love fantasy). It allows for exploration of RW issues without actually exploring RW issues lol.
I'll go with the differential association theory, using Eilistraeen vs. Lolthite behavior (and I would include Vhaeraun in this too). I would point out that Eilistraee and Vhaeraun both had dark elf (not drow) followers even before Lolth did, so she is the one who in fact deviated, but then became the "dominant" force in drow (when they became drow) society. In Menzoberranzan and other Lolthite-dominated cities, Eilistraeens and Vhaearanites have to be extremely careful when recruiting followers, because Lolth-ism is the norm, and to challenge normal drow society means torture and death. Most drow (except for those few born on the surface as part of Eilistraeen or Vhaeraunite culture) are born into Lolthite society. Some, such as the priestesses and matrons, are usually quite fervent in their beliefs, and will hear of no other doctrine. Even those who in their heart of hearts hate Lolth would probably report anyone they suspected of heresy, either out of fear for themselves, or in the hopes of a reward.
My point is, except for the drow who are born on the surface, most come from the same background--Lolthite. So in most cases, it's not about having different views because of different backgrounds, but rather changing views of those who come from the same background. And, those born into the Eilistraeen faith could do this, but so could converts who were born into Lolthite society, but "saw the light", so to speak.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2017 : 21:33:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Galuf the Dwarf
Okay, I was looking for a critique on my observations, not on Sociology itself and comparing real life society and the Realms.
I'm sorry Galuf, and I can't speak for anyone else, but I wasn't quite sure what you were asking/telling us.
Are you saying you want to present various sociological scenarios/theories to region-specific cultural juxtapositions?
And that last sentence was so over-the-top 'high brow' that now I need to eat a burrito, drink and beer, and have a good fart... just to keep my 'trailer trash' status.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Aug 2017 21:53:38 |
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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe
USA
486 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2017 : 01:52:04
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
The Realms is very different from the RW, but it is still "recognizable", even if it's a fantasy setting (and this is why I love fantasy). It allows for exploration of RW issues without actually exploring RW issues lol.
I'll go with the differential association theory, using Eilistraeen vs. Lolthite behavior (and I would include Vhaeraun in this too). I would point out that Eilistraee and Vhaeraun both had dark elf (not drow) followers even before Lolth did, so she is the one who in fact deviated, but then became the "dominant" force in drow (when they became drow) society. In Menzoberranzan and other Lolthite-dominated cities, Eilistraeens and Vhaearanites have to be extremely careful when recruiting followers, because Lolth-ism is the norm, and to challenge normal drow society means torture and death. Most drow (except for those few born on the surface as part of Eilistraeen or Vhaeraunite culture) are born into Lolthite society. Some, such as the priestesses and matrons, are usually quite fervent in their beliefs, and will hear of no other doctrine. Even those who in their heart of hearts hate Lolth would probably report anyone they suspected of heresy, either out of fear for themselves, or in the hopes of a reward.
My point is, except for the drow who are born on the surface, most come from the same background--Lolthite. So in most cases, it's not about having different views because of different backgrounds, but rather changing views of those who come from the same background. And, those born into the Eilistraeen faith could do this, but so could converts who were born into Lolthite society, but "saw the light", so to speak.
Excellent points.  |
Galuf's Baldur's Gate NPC stats: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8823
Galuf's 3.5 Ed. Cleric Domains: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14036
Galuf's Homebrew 4th Edition Races: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13787
Galuf's Homebrew Specialty Priest PrCs: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14353
Galuf's Forgotten Realms Heralds and Allies thread: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8766 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2017 : 01:55:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Galuf the Dwarf
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
The Realms is very different from the RW, but it is still "recognizable", even if it's a fantasy setting (and this is why I love fantasy). It allows for exploration of RW issues without actually exploring RW issues lol.
I'll go with the differential association theory, using Eilistraeen vs. Lolthite behavior (and I would include Vhaeraun in this too). I would point out that Eilistraee and Vhaeraun both had dark elf (not drow) followers even before Lolth did, so she is the one who in fact deviated, but then became the "dominant" force in drow (when they became drow) society. In Menzoberranzan and other Lolthite-dominated cities, Eilistraeens and Vhaearanites have to be extremely careful when recruiting followers, because Lolth-ism is the norm, and to challenge normal drow society means torture and death. Most drow (except for those few born on the surface as part of Eilistraeen or Vhaeraunite culture) are born into Lolthite society. Some, such as the priestesses and matrons, are usually quite fervent in their beliefs, and will hear of no other doctrine. Even those who in their heart of hearts hate Lolth would probably report anyone they suspected of heresy, either out of fear for themselves, or in the hopes of a reward.
My point is, except for the drow who are born on the surface, most come from the same background--Lolthite. So in most cases, it's not about having different views because of different backgrounds, but rather changing views of those who come from the same background. And, those born into the Eilistraeen faith could do this, but so could converts who were born into Lolthite society, but "saw the light", so to speak.
Excellent points.
Thank you  |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe
USA
486 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2017 : 02:02:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Galuf the Dwarf
Okay, I was looking for a critique on my observations, not on Sociology itself and comparing real life society and the Realms.
I'm sorry Galuf, and I can't speak for anyone else, but I wasn't quite sure what you were asking/telling us.
Are you saying you want to present various sociological scenarios/theories to region-specific cultural juxtapositions?
Yes.
quote:
And that last sentence was so over-the-top 'high brow' that now I need to eat a burrito, drink and beer, and have a good fart... just to keep my 'trailer trash' status.
Well, being the first-generation college student of a working-class family, I prefer to set my behavior to higher standards. That, and being the learning disabled black sheep in a family of alcoholics, I prefer to stay sober.  |
Galuf's Baldur's Gate NPC stats: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8823
Galuf's 3.5 Ed. Cleric Domains: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14036
Galuf's Homebrew 4th Edition Races: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13787
Galuf's Homebrew Specialty Priest PrCs: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14353
Galuf's Forgotten Realms Heralds and Allies thread: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8766 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7966 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2017 : 03:08:23
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Remember that published Realmslore was created by authors and game designers, not expert sociologists. While the better writers often include some depth and realism in their settings (at a local level, anyhow, so their stories/characters/plots have firmer contexts in the larger Realms setting), they aren't at all educated experts in social sciences, culture, politics, law, religion, psychology, etc.
And remember that the stuff they write is not thesis-grade material intended for analysis by educated/professional sociologists. It's intended (primarily) to engage "younger" audiences who tend (as some above have already confessed) to judge academia and social studies as being rather dull and boring topics. Drizzt is idolized by book-buyers everywhere more for his gloomy attitude and his spectacular scimitar superiority than for his political savvy or his religious leanings.
And remember that D&D is a game, the Realms is a fictional setting within the D&D game. They're a pastiche of popular pseudo-medieval fantasy tropes meant to entertain (and to sell products) - they're not meant to function as accurate simulations of real-world things. It's unwise to assume that even the most apparently universal and fundamental social axioms observed on our world would prove universally applicable to the "alien" human societies of another world, let alone one they share with numerous non-human species (demihumans, humanoids, monsters, and deities). Don't forget that all sorts of magics/spells can be used to influence or control the thoughts of individuals, groups, or entire mobs - and the extreme longevity of dragons or elves can control societies in subtle or profound ways over generations - and gods/goddesses (living or dead) can suddenly and very dramatically turn everything upside down in moments.
And, most importantly, remember that the social values of people in the Realms are shaped first and foremost by the needs of narrative. If the story requires that everyone in a nation suddenly discards their established culture, traditions, religions, political structures, legal systems, etc ... well, so be it. It makes sense when explained from the limited perspective seen by characters in the story, or when it's simply ignored altogether, or it's handwaved off as something caused by magics, or other (nonhuman) groups, or great deities.
If anything, I'm surprised that humans in the Realms have managed to become the "dominant race" across most of the landscape. Too many competing species are better in too many different ways - not just in magic or medicine or ethics or industry, but also in savagery and ruthlessness and raw durability and sheer numbers - it's a wonder to me that humans aren't as lowly and ignoble as gnomes and halflings. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2017 : 03:23:39
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| Because we (the players and the writers, and the game designers) are human, and like to think that humans are so cool. But, really applying sociology the way some hinted in previous post, the enslaved race (if not destroyed outright) will be the humanity... |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 08 Aug 2017 03:24:05 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2017 : 06:45:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Galuf the Dwarf
Well, being the first-generation college student of a working-class family, I prefer to set my behavior to higher standards. That, and being the learning disabled black sheep in a family of alcoholics, I prefer to stay sober.
I think you are "My brother from another mother".
Seriously. EXTREMELY similar background.
I've just gotten so used to 'speaking in the vernacular', that I shock myself when I come out with something that doesn't fit my normal, 'common' parlance. I learned early-on in HS that people tend to get irritated when you make them feel stupid. 
And to be quite honest, I think too much has changed since I took sociology; I don't even recognize those theories. Psychology I loved (took three semesters because I was going for a degree in 'Special Education'), but when I talk to current college students they don't even recognize most of the terms I use. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2017 : 07:11:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Because we (the players and the writers, and the game designers) are human, and like to think that humans are so cool. But, really applying sociology the way some hinted in previous post, the enslaved race (if not destroyed outright) will be the humanity...
I beg to differ. Unless actual 'alien races' are very different than the common ones presented in fantasy works (elves, dwarves, Orcs, etc), I think humans would come out on top.
How many species have we obliterated? And not just animal - at least a dozen hominid offshoots we know of, and probably a hundred more we'll never know about (and I have a feeling the governments of the world are trying to obscure any facts in that regard). It doesn't matter if its bigger than us, stealthier than us, stronger, faster, or just plain better than us at aggression and killing (most predators), we over come. The designers of D&D hit the nail on the head when they gave humans their 'perk' in 3e - we adapt. faster than anything else, to more conditions and environments than anything else. And we've learned to set one species (race) against another... and we still do it, everyday. All the time.
i think if those other species didn't wipe us out VERY early on, they wouldn't stand a chance. Giant, Dragon, Terrasque... it wouldn't matter. We leverage whatever resources we have (and other people count as a 'resource'), and we WIN. We are at the top of the food chain because we are THE most dangerous predator. Unless other (alien) species evolved along very similar lines (and I would imagine any that could reach space should be predatorial... which is frightening), or were so far ahead of us technologically that we couldn't adapt fast enough, then they wouldn't stand a chance. If they gave us even ten seconds, we'd be shaking their hand, while trying to steal their tech. Thats how we are wired.
Only two ways a 'first encounter' is going to go - we are superior to them, and we 'kill them and take their stuff" (we ARE the race of 'murder hobos"), or they are just like us, and do it to us, because only a species that is dissatisfied with its lot in life is going to explore space. Something that evolved from herd animals never would - only cold-blooded killers have the drive and ambition (and greed) to want to take-over other places (or did you think 'exploring' was actually done for 'science'?) LOL
And in summation, that's why I don't think any of the common fantasy races are realistic - they are neither 'alien' enough, nor hostile enough. Not even the orcs. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2017 : 09:05:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Because we (the players and the writers, and the game designers) are human, and like to think that humans are so cool. But, really applying sociology the way some hinted in previous post, the enslaved race (if not destroyed outright) will be the humanity...
I beg to differ. Unless actual 'alien races' are very different than the common ones presented in fantasy works (elves, dwarves, Orcs, etc), I think humans would come out on top.
How many species have we obliterated? And not just animal - at least a dozen hominid offshoots we know of, and probably a hundred more we'll never know about (and I have a feeling the governments of the world are trying to obscure any facts in that regard). It doesn't matter if its bigger than us, stealthier than us, stronger, faster, or just plain better than us at aggression and killing (most predators), we over come. The designers of D&D hit the nail on the head when they gave humans their 'perk' in 3e - we adapt. faster than anything else, to more conditions and environments than anything else. And we've learned to set one species (race) against another... and we still do it, everyday. All the time.
i think if those other species didn't wipe us out VERY early on, they wouldn't stand a chance. Giant, Dragon, Terrasque... it wouldn't matter. We leverage whatever resources we have (and other people count as a 'resource'), and we WIN. We are at the top of the food chain because we are THE most dangerous predator. Unless other (alien) species evolved along very similar lines (and I would imagine any that could reach space should be predatorial... which is frightening), or were so far ahead of us technologically that we couldn't adapt fast enough, then they wouldn't stand a chance. If they gave us even ten seconds, we'd be shaking their hand, while trying to steal their tech. Thats how we are wired.
Only two ways a 'first encounter' is going to go - we are superior to them, and we 'kill them and take their stuff" (we ARE the race of 'murder hobos"), or they are just like us, and do it to us, because only a species that is dissatisfied with its lot in life is going to explore space. Something that evolved from herd animals never would - only cold-blooded killers have the drive and ambition (and greed) to want to take-over other places (or did you think 'exploring' was actually done for 'science'?) LOL
And in summation, that's why I don't think any of the common fantasy races are realistic - they are neither 'alien' enough, nor hostile enough. Not even the orcs.
Basically, fantasy isn't meant to be realistic, so it don't show the truly bad sides of human society so often.
Few fantasy races have faced extinction in genocidal world wars.
Think of the Dracorage mythal: Imagine if on Earth, with the Elves of Ireland, facing a possible attack from Europeans, with purpose of genocide, and the elven High Mages makes a "Human rage Mythal".
Basically, it would either work as a dracorage mythal (butchering the population every 1000th year, so we'd be locked in Iron/Stone age), or cutting off parts of the growth every 100-200 year. Though, I'd assume a "human rage" would potentially wipe 99% of humans if all turns to base animals in the middle of winter.
This is just an example; the Sun and Moon elves in forgotten realms is potentially as mean, callous and cruel as our worst regimes in history has been. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11689 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2017 : 13:40:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Starshade
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Because we (the players and the writers, and the game designers) are human, and like to think that humans are so cool. But, really applying sociology the way some hinted in previous post, the enslaved race (if not destroyed outright) will be the humanity...
I beg to differ. Unless actual 'alien races' are very different than the common ones presented in fantasy works (elves, dwarves, Orcs, etc), I think humans would come out on top.
How many species have we obliterated? And not just animal - at least a dozen hominid offshoots we know of, and probably a hundred more we'll never know about (and I have a feeling the governments of the world are trying to obscure any facts in that regard). It doesn't matter if its bigger than us, stealthier than us, stronger, faster, or just plain better than us at aggression and killing (most predators), we over come. The designers of D&D hit the nail on the head when they gave humans their 'perk' in 3e - we adapt. faster than anything else, to more conditions and environments than anything else. And we've learned to set one species (race) against another... and we still do it, everyday. All the time.
i think if those other species didn't wipe us out VERY early on, they wouldn't stand a chance. Giant, Dragon, Terrasque... it wouldn't matter. We leverage whatever resources we have (and other people count as a 'resource'), and we WIN. We are at the top of the food chain because we are THE most dangerous predator. Unless other (alien) species evolved along very similar lines (and I would imagine any that could reach space should be predatorial... which is frightening), or were so far ahead of us technologically that we couldn't adapt fast enough, then they wouldn't stand a chance. If they gave us even ten seconds, we'd be shaking their hand, while trying to steal their tech. Thats how we are wired.
Only two ways a 'first encounter' is going to go - we are superior to them, and we 'kill them and take their stuff" (we ARE the race of 'murder hobos"), or they are just like us, and do it to us, because only a species that is dissatisfied with its lot in life is going to explore space. Something that evolved from herd animals never would - only cold-blooded killers have the drive and ambition (and greed) to want to take-over other places (or did you think 'exploring' was actually done for 'science'?) LOL
And in summation, that's why I don't think any of the common fantasy races are realistic - they are neither 'alien' enough, nor hostile enough. Not even the orcs.
Basically, fantasy isn't meant to be realistic, so it don't show the truly bad sides of human society so often.
Few fantasy races have faced extinction in genocidal world wars.
Think of the Dracorage mythal: Imagine if on Earth, with the Elves of Ireland, facing a possible attack from Europeans, with purpose of genocide, and the elven High Mages makes a "Human rage Mythal".
Basically, it would either work as a dracorage mythal (butchering the population every 1000th year, so we'd be locked in Iron/Stone age), or cutting off parts of the growth every 100-200 year. Though, I'd assume a "human rage" would potentially wipe 99% of humans if all turns to base animals in the middle of winter.
This is just an example; the Sun and Moon elves in forgotten realms is potentially as mean, callous and cruel as our worst regimes in history has been.
Remember, the dracorage mythal didn't just make dragons attack dragons. The same would go for a human rage mythal. Elves would have to be VERY careful with this, as it would simply make humans MORE aggressive, and they probably would aim for non-humans first. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11689 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2017 : 13:43:04
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| Of course, at some point we're probably going to find out that there are no such things as orcs. Its all an illusory trick that makes humans perceive a certain breed of other humans as if they look like monsters. Damn Leira and her tricks. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2017 : 19:41:43
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Its easy to 'glorify' and attractive race, and vilify an ugly one. Strangely, there was an excellent episode of Lost in Space about that (probably one of the first times in my childhood that I was forced to question everything I know).
You want to get 'your people' behind you in committing genocide (so you can steal the other side's land/resources)? Just prove the others are 'unattractive, savage brutes', and 'mere animals'. Thats all it takes. In fact, they can even look very similar and this still works ('big' nose, different-shaped eyes, etc, etc). Hell, you can even massacre a bunch of your own people and blame it on the 'savages' - thats how you steal everything from someone, and look moralistic doing it.
Not that any of this pertains to the real world.... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Aug 2017 19:42:13 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7966 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2017 : 00:22:40
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| With so much division among humans here about the merits/evils of humans in a multi-race world, just imagine how divisive the opinions of the other races would be towards humans and each other, lol. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2017 : 21:15:56
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Of course, at some point we're probably going to find out that there are no such things as orcs. Its all an illusory trick that makes humans perceive a certain breed of other humans as if they look like monsters. Damn Leira and her tricks.
You know, that sounds like a wery good plot twist for a homebrew D&D campaign world! [
Imagine the faces for players when they figure that out  |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 00:10:12
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How about, "You find out humans have been true monsters all along"?
You know, go to someone's home, kick down the door, kill whatever lives there and their entire family/clan, and then steal all their stuff. In the RW, thats like 50 major crimes right there, but in D&D, its just 'adventuring'. Or run a D&D game where all the players play some type of monster race, and then have them living in a 'dungeon' (cavern-complex, whatever), and the story-arc of the campaign is just surviving the next wave of adventurers.
Norbo the Goblin: "Godsdammit! There are women and children here! Why can't you just leave us the hell alone? We don't have any treasure! Just a few coppers and some pointy sticks! What is wrong with you sick bastards?"
Ahnald the Mighty, human adventurer: "Hey guys! This ugly little brute is actually squawking in my face! ha ha ha! I think its try to say something! Here you go, ya ugly lil' bastitch... *THUNK* Now that thats done, someone go slit the throats of those small ones over there... I think this one has a few coppers on him..."
D&D... saving princesses from dragons it ain't. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Aug 2017 00:11:42 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11689 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2017 : 00:47:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
How about, "You find out humans have been true monsters all along"?
You know, go to someone's home, kick down the door, kill whatever lives there and their entire family/clan, and then steal all their stuff. In the RW, thats like 50 major crimes right there, but in D&D, its just 'adventuring'. Or run a D&D game where all the players play some type of monster race, and then have them living in a 'dungeon' (cavern-complex, whatever), and the story-arc of the campaign is just surviving the next wave of adventurers.
Norbo the Goblin: "Godsdammit! There are women and children here! Why can't you just leave us the hell alone? We don't have any treasure! Just a few coppers and some pointy sticks! What is wrong with you sick bastards?"
Ahnald the Mighty, human adventurer: "Hey guys! This ugly little brute is actually squawking in my face! ha ha ha! I think its try to say something! Here you go, ya ugly lil' bastitch... *THUNK* Now that thats done, someone go slit the throats of those small ones over there... I think this one has a few coppers on him..."
D&D... saving princesses from dragons it ain't.
lol, reminds me of the last character I played. With 5e, the nuances you can do with spells is .... nonexistent.... compared to what I'm used to in 2e and 3e. So, I played a mage whose instant reaction to most things was "fireball it". Definitely not my most shining, but it was fun. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Sociological Theories and the Realms
