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mastermustard
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Aug 2017 : 20:00:50
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I remember in the Eberron Online game, Lolth tore a hole in spacetime to absorb the power of Eberron's spider goddess, but that may not have been canon.
Could someone from Toril use one of those fancy space-fairing ships to reach the planet Eberron?
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2017 : 22:27:16
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According to the current model of the D&D multiverse that was created in 4th edition and carried over with 5th edition, all mortal worlds (Abeir-Toril, Oerth, Krynn, Athas, Eberron, and all other mortal worlds in whatever D&D supplement you can get) exist within the same material plane, separated by space and barriers (crystal spheres). So, yes, all share the same cosmology, though how this cosmology is viewed depends on sages. Some see it as a Great Wheel, others as the World Axis, etc. In Eberron, the sages usually see it as a lunar orrery.
So, technically, yes. One can use a spelljammer to go from Toril to Eberron, or use a planar portal to do it as well. Though it seems Eberron is a rare material world that is usually isolated from traveling (like Athas), so is more difficult to travel to Eberron (or Athas), than to travel to Oerth or Krynn. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 03 Aug 2017 22:30:43 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2017 : 14:22:11
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"They are all worlds in the Material Plane, share outer planes, separated by crystal spheres, phlogiston, Wild Space #WOTCstaff "
"Tho diff worlds have different conceptions of and ties to outer planes - Eberron's relation to planes differs from Greyhawk's #WOTCstaff"
Mike Mearls on twitter. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2017 : 14:38:47
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Suddenly I'm wondering if there is spelljammer-boosting dragonmark unknown to the groundlings of Eber-whatsit.
...And what would that sphere be called? Eberronspace? Eberspace? Whatsitspace? Markspace? Shardspace? |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2017 : 15:15:21
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Personally I would pick something closer to Siberyspace, since Siberys is the dragon of "space" and the planet's ring would be the first thing spelljammers would encounter as they approached.
And the thing that comes instantly to my mind would be whether you can harvest Siberys shards in space. If you can, it would mean being able to skip all of the nastiness of sending teams of prospectors to Xen'drik. And if that is true, then the introduction of spelljamming to Eberron would undoubtedly lead to the greatest resource rush in the history of the planet.
It would actually make for a really great campaign, I would think. Take all the best parts of a gold rush, frontier raiding, and space pirates, with a hefty dose of national and megacorp (yes, I'm a Shadowrun player :) ) competition, all taking place amongst the stars. Could be really fun. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2017 : 17:28:32
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I like 'Shardspace', but they would probably go with something like Eberrspace (which also sounds pretty cool) - you don't want to confuse your customers, so 'keep it simple' is how that usually goes (and from a business stand-point, I'd have to agree with it). Siberyspace also sounds cool, and probably makes a lot of sense, but once again, unless you are already an Eberr-junkie, you wouldn't recognize the reference.
They used to not be in the same cosmology. Well, not really, but sort of (that sounds like it describes EVERYTHNG from 3e-5e. eh?) Like Athas/Darksun and I think Mystara/OD&D, they were in 'closed spheres', which meant they WERE part of the 'normal D&D universe' (unlike something like Ravenloft, which is a demiplane), but not reachable by the others. However, RL 'stole' at least one locale from Athas, and FR people can and have gone to RL, which meant getting there was possible, which also means getting to ANY 'closed sphere' should have been possible (wasn't there something about their being an Eberron-Domain in the Domains of Dread now as well?) There was also the "EVERYTHING connects to the Planes of Shadow" (that got rebranded 'The Shadowfell', cause, ya now, Shar has awesome marketing people) rule, which was from 3e, IIRC. In hindsight, that makes perfect sense now, because Ravenloft is a 'bubble' floating within the Sea of Shadows (in The Shadowfell), which I think became canon in 4e (so hard to keep track of this stuff). That means you couldn't reach any of these 'closed spheres' through normal physical (Prime Material) means. but you could reach them if you were a Planeswalker/Planesjammer instead (so its entirely possible the Imaskari visited Eberron, or Mystara, but very unlikely the Netherese did so).
So it wasn't in the same cosmology... but it was... and now it IS. LOL
The same should really go for Abeir, and since people have gone back & forth (without a 'magical cataclysm'), I suppose it is. Once again, everything connects to Shadow... unless they changed that. Of course, that gives us interesting possibilities... if we just ignore whatever novels say about this type of thing. The authors really should have used Athas as a model of a D&D world with little/no magic. They (TSR) really got that one right. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Aug 2017 17:31:42 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2017 : 17:59:50
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| I don't remember if the Shadowfell was connected to the whole multiverse in 4e (though, there are vistani caravans there), but there is only one Feywild in the D&D multiverse, and is connected to all mortal worlds (and both Athas and Eberron have a Feywild in their 4e updates). |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2017 : 18:05:51
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They're all worlds "sandwiched" together lol. Like parallel dimensions (though they may not actually be parallel, per se). Connected, but separated by "veils", and different space and time, and they don't always play by the same rules.
(And I fully admit FR is the only setting/world I am really familiar with). |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 04 Aug 2017 18:06:25 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7966 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2017 : 19:53:16
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Why would Athas have a connection to the Feywild?
Athasian elves aren't Fey elves, lol. No other creatures Fey exist on Athas.
Also no stone circles, sylvan glades, or druids (of the usual sort) on Athas. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2017 : 00:10:19
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This is from the 4e Dark Sun Campaign Setting.
From the Cosmology section:
Travelers in the wastes tell of the Lands Within the Wind, an otherworld of magic and enchantment that exists alongside the material world. Known in some ancient texts as “the Feywild” or “the Kingdoms Invisible,” this otherworld seems to be an echo or reflection of Athas. It is absent from most places around the planet, but pockets of this realm lie in remote deserts and mountains, especially the Forest Ridge. These pockets are small; scholars believe that the total amount of the plane remaining in existence, combining all fragments scattered across Athas, would fit inside the walls of Tyr. The Lands Within the Wind are home to the eladrin, an elflike race of mysterious powers. A traveler could walk right past an eladrin palace and never see it because it lies in the other plane instead of on Athas.
From the Races section:
In truth, the fey realm has all but vanished, and the few eladrin outposts that remain there are crumbling into ruin as their land is burned away by defiling magic.
So, basically the Feywild reach all the multiverse, including Athas (because is part of the multiverse), but the fey lands touching Athas were almost destroyed by the defiling. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 08 Aug 2017 00:15:36 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2017 : 03:31:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Why would Athas have a connection to the Feywild?
Athasian elves aren't Fey elves, lol. No other creatures Fey exist on Athas.
Also no stone circles, sylvan glades, or druids (of the usual sort) on Athas.
Athas had pixies, but they were all slain by Wyan of Bodach.
...That was always one thing that bugged me about Dark Sun. Entire races, each killed by just one person. That seems a bit unlikely, logistically.
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2017 : 15:34:14
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Eberron is probably its own crystal sphere insulated from the planes, or maybe the planar arrangement is such that Eberron's planes are demiplanes where the Outer and/or Inner Planes intersect. Dolurrh, for instance, is where the Negative Energy Plane touches the Gray Waste.
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2017 : 00:07:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Why would Athas have a connection to the Feywild?
Athasian elves aren't Fey elves, lol. No other creatures Fey exist on Athas.
Also no stone circles, sylvan glades, or druids (of the usual sort) on Athas.
Its really just a few scraps of the dying plane. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2017 : 04:20:54
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| So in the plane of Feywild, there'd be a great big 'desert' (magically dead spot) that corresponds to where Athas is in the Prime Material. Thats kind of cool. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2017 : 22:52:53
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| No its little just pieces of the feywild left on Athas, the rest has been destroyer, not desertified just anniliated, so its like islands of the feywidl, isolated by nothingness. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2017 : 01:50:38
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| The remaining parts of the Feywild that are connected to "current day" Athas are so few that all of them will fit in the City-State of Tyr, according to the 4e sourcebook. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2017 : 22:07:11
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Hmmm. Thats difficult to reconcile with how I picture the Feywild (and the Shadowfell, and the Astral & Ethereal, for that matter).
I picture all of those 'transitive planes' being like distorted reflections of 'the real world' (Prime Material), and the MAIN thing that gets distorted is SPACE (Time & Space, really, but the 'time' part is not part of my point). In other words, every single spot on the Prime Material has a corresponding spot in those others, even the 'empty space' between the Spheres' The big difference is that those planes are WAY SMALLER, so when you enter one, travel just a few miles in it, and exit back into the Prime, you've gone a hundred miles or more. I've discussed (in detail) how all that works elsewhere - places with sentient beings (settlements) 'anchor' spots in reality, so that distance-distortion becomes less (so the actual settlement might be just a tiny bit smaller than the Prime version, and the further you move away from it, the greater the distortion gets). Famous sites/important Landmarks will also anchor things in that fashion, as will large groups of animals (but not as much as sentient beings would). The areas that coincide with the Phlogiston (the stuff between the Crystal Spheres) would have the most 'compression', so that millions (and even trillions) of miles become only thousands (a 'sea' in the Astral, Ethereal, Feywild, or Shadowfell). Basically, all of those planes are likes vast (plane-sized) seas with millions of islands (very large and small) dotting them. In fact, that's precisely how the Shadowfell seems to work (just look at Ravenloft - its surrounded by the 'Shadow Sea', and there islands in that, 'in the Mists').
So somewhere there is a patch of land (probably just a tiny island far away from all the rest) that corresponds to Athas, and it would be mostly some sort of Fey-Desert, with just a few noteworthy spots (corresponding to the Citystates). Except you guys are saying the 4e canon says that only tiny spots of Feywild connect to it. On the other hand, I think I can reconcile that, given Athas' nature - fey-Athas would be tiny because it has very few 'anchor points' (it doesn't have a lot of settled area, or even people, for that matter). Thus, the entire planet might only be a 'desert island' a few miles across (in the Feywild), because of the compression-effect. Still, it doesn't explain why there are only 'pockets' of the fFeywild touching Athas... unless thats just how people are percieving it (if you had the ability to step through one of these spots into the Feywild, and then step just one foot to the left (or right, etc.), and then re=enter Athas, you be hundreds and hundreds of miles away. Thus, making you think that there's just tiny isolated spots, when in fact, its because you move too much in the one plane to realize its all connected.You have to move an incredibly infintesimal amount (a millimeter?) just to appear within seeing-distance of the last spot you were in, that's how great Athas' compression might be (a world devoid of life and with few sentients on it would be anathema to the Feywild - a Realm of vibrant life).
Hmmmmmmm... maybe it just 'life' that anchors it, and its also a 'quality' thing. The more advanced/sentient, the greater the anchoring effect. However, even though plant-life might be primitive compared to higher organisms, a huge forest would still be anchor a spot fairly well, even if devoid of sentients. So its a combination of both more life (which Athas has very little of) AND how advanced that life is (which Athas also struggles with). Whereas as the island of Athas would be tiny, the sub-continent of Toril (the Toril Islands) would be pretty huge, compared to most other 'island worlds'.
And now that I am thinking about this stuff again, it makes perfect sense when coupled with my 'First World' Theory for the Prime Material, because the Prime itself would have been MUCH smaller before if was Shattered/Fractured/Sundered. Picture having a 3' by 3' piece of glass (that's one of the planes). In fact, you have several of those, stacked neatly together. But you take one, go up to the roof of a 50 story tall building, and throw one off. The resulting pile on the ground is the prime Material, post-Godswar. The fragments are scattered EVERYWHERE. And if you managed to collect them all back together, you'd still have the same amount of material that's makes up the un-shattered planes you have left. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Aug 2017 14:03:23 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2017 : 21:42:29
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The Feywild and Shadowfell aren't transitive planes, they are mirror planes, big difference.
They mirror the material plane, but twisted version Gothic and Grim in the, Shadowfell, magic and Fey in the Feywild.
The material plane and its mirror planes are connected to the Ethereal Plane, which IS a transitive plane, which connects them to the Elemental Planes.
The Astral, the other transitive planes,, connects the Outer Planes and further out the energy planes to the the rest of the multiverse.
The catogories are:
Material
Mirror
Elemental
Transitive
Outer
Energy
Demiplanes
Far Realms |
Edited by - Gyor on 16 Aug 2017 22:20:40 |
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Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2017 : 13:03:10
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| I seem to remember, some source who said if some ship travelled wery far, it's possible to find other worlds. It's as far i know, hinted in discussions around about the Manual of the Planes 3.5, that it's theoretically possible to find the Outer planes in Eberron. So, it both differ, from other D&D worlds, and it's hinted it's both possible to use a spelljammer or planejammer to travel there (a spelljammer could theoretically, perhaps even do planejamming). |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2017 : 14:07:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
The Feywild and Shadowfell aren't transitive planes, they are mirror planes, big difference.
They mirror the material plane, but twisted version Gothic and Grim in the, Shadowfell, magic and Fey in the Feywild.
The material plane and its mirror planes are connected to the Ethereal Plane, which IS a transitive plane, which connects them to the Elemental Planes.
The Astral, the other transitive planes,, connects the Outer Planes and further out the energy planes to the the rest of the multiverse.
The catogories are:
Material
Mirror
Elemental
Transitive
Outer
Energy
Demiplanes
Far Realms
I wasn't being technical, I was using the term loosely, to mean "planes that people of the prime use to get around to other places", and I've seen numerous examples of both the Feywild and the Shadowfell being used in that manner (because of the 'compression effect').
I would never use that term for the Inner or Outer planes, because they're more of a 'destination', than a 'means to an end'. Also, be it canon or not, its really splitting hairs - all the planes that I refer to as 'transitive' are known to connect to most other planes/worlds, which to me is their primary feature. And while the Feywild and Shadowfell do demonstrate more of the 'mirror effect' than the other two, that doesn't mean it isn't present in them as well. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Aug 2017 14:10:42 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2017 : 22:47:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Starshade
So, it both differ, from other D&D worlds, and it's hinted it's both possible to use a spelljammer or planejammer to travel there (a spelljammer could theoretically, perhaps even do planejamming).
All spelljammers in 4e were capable of doing planejamming. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7966 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2017 : 01:34:27
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The "technical" corrections/definitions provided by Gyor are edition-specific. Planeslores (and D&D rules and Realmslores) from 1E/2E, 3E, 4E, and 5E are mutually incompatible more often than not.
Lacking any other "lore" to go on, I conclude that Eberron is (for all practical purposes) entirely isolated from the Realms.
- the Realms setting has existed within and moved through all planeslore editions
- the "prototype" of Eberron was introduced in 2E, Eberron became a proper setting in 3E, and Eberron was haphazardly "updated" to 4E and 5E
- to my knowledge, there are no crossovers or links between Eberron and the Realms (or the Feywild, or the Shadowfell, or Ravenloft, or Spelljammer, or any other setting); this is somewhat telling in itself since each of these "transitive" settings includes character crossovers from other settings (Greyhawk, Krynn, Mystara, even Athas, etc) while Eberron is conspicuously not represented
- to my knowledge, no characters (not even eminently cosmic-savvy characters like Elminster, Mordenkainen, Raistlin, Dregoth, the Symbul, Larloch, Halaster, or Telamont; not even deities/Powers like Mystra or Shar or Ptah; not even world-hungry archfiends like Asmodeus and Mephistopheles) have ever referenced or described or mused over Eberron in any way; I can only conclude that they are essentially unaware that Eberron exists. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 18 Aug 2017 01:46:10 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2017 : 01:57:44
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Yet there is a canonical portal to Eberron side by side to a canonical portal to Toril, to the Nentir Vale world and to Athas (and D&D Earth), in Baba Yaga's Hut, that is located in the Feywild.
And there is Feywild in Eberron as well. And Asmodeus also exist in Eberron (granted, this was introduced in 4e).
And there is this novel (one of the Abyssal Plague), that links Eberron, Toril, the Nentir Vale world and Athas (among other many worlds).
So, yeah, those are late canon products, but they are canon products linking those worlds. That Elminster don't go there, doesn't mean that those worlds don exist. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 18 Aug 2017 02:08:05 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7966 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2017 : 09:18:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Yet there is a canonical portal to Eberron side by side to a canonical portal to Toril, to the Nentir Vale world and to Athas (and D&D Earth), in Baba Yaga's Hut, that is located in the Feywild.
And there is Feywild in Eberron as well. And Asmodeus also exist in Eberron (granted, this was introduced in 4e).
And there is this novel (one of the Abyssal Plague), that links Eberron, Toril, the Nentir Vale world and Athas (among other many worlds).
So, yeah, those are late canon products, but they are canon products linking those worlds. That Elminster don't go there, doesn't mean that those worlds don exist.
I haven't followed much of 4E onwards, so I wasn't aware of these details. It seems they answer the OP's question in the affirmative.
Although Eberron-Asmodeus isn't necessarily the same entity as Realms-Asmodeus or Gygax-Asmodeus. Just as Realms-Tyr isn't necessarily the same entity as Norse-Tyr. They could be entirely different beings/aspects, entirely unaware of each other ... although Asmodeus is probably Asmodeus no matter where he is found, and if Asmodeus knows Eberron then Asmodeus knows Eberron, lol, simple as that.
If the Abyssal Plague (and perhaps also Spellplague) affected Eberron then it seems evident that Eberron and the Realms occupy the "same cosmology" by definition. But even if this is true, it doesn't require these worlds/settings are mutually accessible through the usual spelljamming or planeswalking methods. |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2017 : 10:26:09
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There was an old discussion on the WotC boards wherein Keith Baker stated that although [at the time], there was no official name for the Eberron planetary system in terms of Wildspace dynamics, he did accept, unofficially, that Siberyspace or Shardspace were interesting alternatives to the generic "Eberronspace."
When I've ventured into Eberronspace in my SJ campaigns, I've often employed a rather curious quirk derived from the unique planar/spatial dynamics of the setting - essentially, whichever planar domain is the most dominant and coterminous with Eberron itself, usually lends its name to the system as a whole. A spelljamming adventure through Xoriatspace did, I can tell you, become quite a hoot amongst my old SJ friends. |
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Edited by - The Sage on 18 Aug 2017 10:27:26 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2017 : 15:22:33
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Elminster HAS - in Eberron canon - gone to Eberron (Xendrik).
He went to to Stormreach in the Online game. I think thats a pretty clear indication Toril & Eberron 'have connections'.
In 3e, when it was first presented, Eberron was given a 'local cosmology', which was much more like a cosmology than a Crystal Sphere. In 3e, for whatever reason, the designers tried to keep all the worlds as separate as possible. From 4e on, Eberron's 'local cosmology' just became a weird Crystal Sphere setup, is all (with 'worlds' corresponding to various planes, so almost like a hybrid cosmology/solar system).
All the worlds have been connected through Ravenloft as well, which means ALL D&D worlds exist within the same 'universe'. And that was even before we had RL in the Shadowfell (which was probably the best decision they've made in some 20 years). I am not 100% about pieces of EB ending up in RL, though - I recall hearing something about that once, but it may have just been some fanwork. Not sure. Regardless, considering everything else we now know about Ebrrron (and Elminster's visit), its still part of the normal D&Dverse.
Personally, I think 'Steampunk' versions of the Warforged would be awesome in Ravenloft (probably on a separate island, though - thats a 'hard' flavor). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Aug 2017 15:30:35 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2017 : 16:02:01
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Is fanwork, AFAIK. But is Keith Baker's fanwork. He proposed that Karn the Conqueror was sealed in a domain of dread, not unlike Strahd. And also, one of the answers for the Mourland is that perhaps Cyre was transformed into a domain of drad as well.
But, yeah, I had forgotten that D&D Online had this plot about Lolth connecting Eberron and Faerűn thought the Abyss (ironic, since it was the whole point of the topic, I know). |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 18 Aug 2017 16:06:33 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2017 : 17:18:04
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No-one can remember everything, my friend.
But you do a very good job of it.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7966 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2017 : 17:18:59
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The "weird crystal sphere hybrid cosmology/solar system" thing could be treated as a local demiplane. That is, a world (even an entire analogue to a crystal sphere system) existing as an "island" in the Ethereal instead of in a location on the Prime Material. Much like Ravenloft and the Demiplane of Dread are superficially similar to Primes in most "physical" regards (albeit they are twisted by the Dark Powers).
A "Demiplane (Demisphere?) of Eberron" could be modelled to exactly (or almost exactly, or not at all) resemble all the properties and characteristics of a Prime Material world/sphere. But it would be more proximate to the Ethereal and to the Inner (Elemental) Planes, not isolated (like a Prime) through stuff like border Planes and Phlogiston. A fine way to explain Eberron's unusual affinities for elemental magics. Even a fine way to explain Eberron's apparent disconnect from "normal" regions of Feywild and Shadowfell. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Are Toril and Eberron part of the same cosmology?
