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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Dec 2017 : 00:01:14
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I think it was this thread where we were talking about the DoD stuff (and how you were merging some of it with the Tan Chin stuff). I just found-out (accidentally) that there is a small bit of lore concerning some of those DoD sites in Sandstorm from 3e. I am currently looking for something else (an obscure source footnote for the wiki, and I can't find the right page, dammit, so I have to READ THE WHOLE BOOK). Now you know why maps take me forever - the research never ends (but it is fun).
Anyhow, a couple of other things that struck me - there is a blurb in there that says the Plains of Purple Dust are "the remnant of a magical battle BETWEEN the deities of the ancient empires of Unther and Mulhorand". Now, most-likely that's an error on the part of a writer not completely familiar with FR (or just a bad choice of wording), but it would be fun to speculate on: Could it be possible that the Imaskari had little to do with the apocalypse that destroyed them? They were just blamed for it after the fact, by embarassed gods?
The other thing from that source is the goddess Tem-Et-Nu - female, goodly, involved with water. Sounds like an alias for Tefnut. I may use that. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Dec 2017 17:06:22 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2017 : 13:32:48
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(Daz, I know you're not into the god stuff, but I just have to share this)
So, it was really weird this morning when my girlfriend came to the table this morning. She reads to her daughter Jade every night before bed. Previously it was the magic tree house series, and then some other modern versions of similar. I gave her an old book of Russian fairy tales which aren't necessarily adapted for kids (in that they don't necessarily make sense to the modern reader). However, even though she and Jade didn't understand everything going on, she and Jade enjoyed it. So, I recommended she look into some of the kid's fantasy books, and so she picked up some series about "the dark". So, she would come to me and tell me about what was going on in those novels in the mornings, and I would recognize some of the creatures/things involved, but I honestly think the author was making up some stuff for his own world (which is fine, its what we do). Anyway, I'm a big Norse junkie, so when I saw that Rick Riordan (of Percy Jackson & the lightning thief fame) had started a series on the Norse... even though it was for kids, I picked it up and read it myself. So, I recommended she try this guy out. Well, she's heard me read some of the (not kiddified) Norse myths to Jade when she was about five, so she was leery (blood, etc....). But, she saw the name in scholastic reader for some Egyptian version (the Kane series), and so she bought them.
So, this morning, she comes to the breakfast table, and she's telling me all about how Rick Riordan has portrayed the gods in that version (bear in mind, I'm telling this third hand, and my girlfriend is by no means a geek into mythology like me). Basically, the gods in that series are like possessing spirits, and the wizards are people who are touched by the gods somehow. The concept of father/mother/son, etc... is often confused by the possessed because they themselves are often children/siblings/parents, etc.... Given how incarnations are done in Mulhorand and that the various royal houses interbreed with one another, this could be an interesting way to explain confusion about godly "births" in Mulhorand.
So, then my girlfriend goes on to tell me the story I just related above about how there were 360 days in the Egyptian calendar, and Geb had impregnated Nut. Ra foresaw that one of their children would overthrow him, so Ra forbade Nut from giving birth on any day of the year. So, Thoth chooses to gamble with the moon, and in his great power of gambling, he earns 5 extra days of moonlight, which he spreads out separate from the "rest of the year". So, in this version Nut gives birth to 5 children, not four, on these five extra days of the year, and those five children include Horus as well. Since Horus does in fact take over from Ra in the realms AND Horus is labeled a young god in powers and pantheons AND since Ra may have deliberately not wanted Horus to come over AND since Ao prior to the ToT let gods come and go willy nilly if they could find a way COULD Horus have been "birthed into the realms via Isis through her mother"..... you know, the ultimate F/U from Nut to Ra from across the multiverse.
Throw into this that there were actually according to accounts possibly 2 different "Horus". Horus the elder was the one that was the brother of Osiris, Isis, Set, and Nephthys. Horus the younger was the child of Isis and Osiris. What if we were to actually pursue this concept. Basically, Ra is killed. Horus the elder is given Ra's might. Horus the elder dies (Set or maybe the orc gods do it). Osiris and Set begin quarrelling over who will lead. Nephthys covers herself with an illusion of Isis and sleeps with Osiris (maybe... the myths have this). Set kills Osiris. Isis and Nephthys gather the body of Osiris, and Isis goes to get something to bring him back. Set tricks Nephthys into revealing where the body is, chops up Osiris, and spreads the body parts around. Isis and Nephthys gather the body parts, put them back together, but they can't find Osiris' penis.... but they bring him back to life anyway. During this process, Isis becomes "pregnant" by the "undead" Osiris and flees to give birth to Horus the younger (maybe Nephthys worked to provide the seed of Osiris she had gotten previously). Osiris is unfit to rule since he "is no longer whole", and he becomes god of the underworld. Horus the younger (aka Horus-Re) and Isis live in exile for a time while Set rules, and then they come back and Horus-Re takes over.
In this concept, during this time away, perhaps certain other deities of Unther were formed. For instance, we have this story that Ishtar gives up her power to Isis. But what if Ishtar was Isis from the beginning, and she basically took up a position amongst the Untheric people when Inanna died. Since there was an established peace between Unther and Mulhorand, Set couldn't touch Isis/Ishtar while she was in Unther without starting a godswar, so maybe this is where she fled to hide and give birth to Horus-Re/Horus the younger.
Finally, on the quote that Markustay just put (the Plains of Purple Dust are "the remnant of a magical battle BETWEEN the deities of the ancient empires of Unther and Mulhorand")... one of the things that comes to mind is that possibly there was a conflict as both divine families tried to become dominant in the region. While Ao didn't stop deities from showing up, he did try and stop deities from overlapping portfolios in the same pantheon prior to the ToT. Normally, this was worked out in the Pavilion of Cynosure, far away from mortals.... but these gods can't leave Toril. This "conflict" may have been destroying gods, and with their destruction, their manifestations got destroyed? When their manifestations destroyed, nastry destruction in Raurin. Eventually, the gods lead their people away, just because they can't exist in the same place... so its about godly self-preservation.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2017 : 16:55:42
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| Yeah, after reading the above myth..... I'm thinking about making an artifact... the Penis of Osiris.... and laugh if you will, maybe its part of the secret of the "rebirth" of the Mulhorandi gods. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2017 : 17:27:31
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I really like that take on them - sometimes I think some 'Young Adult' series have more creativity than adult ones. I'll probably go that route myself - the 'spirit' (aspect/avatar) of the god is passed down through family members. And since RW egyptian (and other) mythos sometimes had conjoined gods, that would be a great way to work that in (if a mortal had a divine bloodline through BOTH parents to different Pharonic entities).
Ya know, Dazzler, for a person who tries to steer clear of 'god stuff', trying to develop the Old Empires here in a thread is like trying to take a pleasant stroll through a mine-field. 
I like the idea that imaskar wasn't nearly as destroyed as Mulan history says it was - this may be a great way to fudge some inconsistencies. After all, the Shou are (canonically) known for altering their history, and they are an imaskari survivor state, so why not the Old Empires as well? Maybe this 'revisionist history' even started with the Imaskari themselves ("These poor folks were living very primitive lifestyles and were in danger, so we brought them here to protect them, and they earn their keep by doing work for us").
So perhaps Inupras(sp?) got nuked, but the real damage to the surrounding region happened gradually, as the two (really three) pantheons fought to be dominant. This would also help explain the odd dating for when Skuld was founded (it would have just been a 'backwater' settlement, and then when the Raurin was completely destroyed, it became the new capitol). The Mulan seem to have just 'erased' those first 5-7 centuries of strife from their records.
Whereas nearly all in-setting sources for the Old Empires can now be considered 'tainted' (revisionist history), a core sourcebook (like Sandstorm) might be considered untainted (unbiased by the setting itself), and thus, more true.
And I never did find that entry in Sandstorm - two footnotes in the Wiki under the Almraiven entry with 'notable locations', and neither of them were in the book. I'm starting to not trust the wiki again - seems like someone snuck-in some homebrew and put a false reference in there to hide it. 
Ya know, I'm bad enough about over-researching and never finishing anything without some self-indulgent fanboi sending me on a wild goose chase.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Dec 2017 17:29:05 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2017 : 19:37:22
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The funny thing is, I NEVER use gods in my games. I just like theorizing about them.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2017 : 21:45:06
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Oddly, I didn't use gods a whole lot in my game previously, but the last few times I PLAYED ..... I've been a god.... kinda... one game we played it was a "far future earth that's reverted to fantasy"... and my character thought he was Thor "reborn"... the Marvel one.... it was fun "remembering" being a doctor, Iron Man, Captain America, etc.... I played it to the hilt.
The next game, I played an elf wizard with a single level of cleric of Frey. Its amazing how much I put my worship of Frey into that character (though I played up my relationship with my brother more).
I just started a 3.5 d20 modern game (I know the rules barely), but my character in this one is not a god or a child of a god. However..... my half-sister is a daughter of Hecate. Oh, and my dad is a son of Oghma who was inflicted with cancer by Kiputytto (so I guess I AM a son of a demigod). My dad's being taken care of by my grandmother (she says she's a daughter of Thunderbird... I don't know if she means the wine or the Indian mythological figure). Oh, and I got a couple cousins, one of which is Annabeth Chase and a daughter of Athena, whose boyfriend is this jackass Percy Jackson... who got SOOOOO "rewritten" in his humility in that movie Percy Jackson and the Lightning Thief. The other cousin is Magnus Chase, who is now dead.... but he likes to visit since he's an einheriar and a son of Frey, but he has this "foreign" friend Samirah who is a Valkyrie who I don't trust. But, I'm not a god.... I'm just an ex-CIA desk/computer agent who was kicked out for going AWOL to rescue my sister from a bunch of vampire cultists of Lamashtu in Syria who wanted to drink her blood.
Oh, and my backstory has all kinds of stuff where my families involvement in the middle east has been going on for years (i.e. my Dad tried to help with the Iran hostage crisis, but Jimmy Carter called him nuts for telling him the "truth" about what was going on with an Efreeti. My mom (a normal human) was capture and abused during the gulf war in Kuwait. I joined the CIA after 9/11. I was in Afghanistan when I found out from my dad that my sister had been taken by Syrian vampires. I rescued her, but I needed a transfusion. When I got some of my sister's blood in me, it awakened me to magic. So, I came back home to Massachusetts and entered Miskatonic University where I've been studying magic and how one can apply it with technology.... oh, and getting tips from that TV series Supernatural, because you know that's real.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 11 Dec 2017 21:46:38 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2017 : 12:02:58
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So latest stuff in Unthalass.
The city is split into two halves. With the River Alamber running between them.
The northern half is where the slaves and free holders live.
The southern half is where the palace district is. Its literally filled with ziggurat style multi tiered palaces all in homage of gilgeamesq's grand palace and seat of government, the ziggurat of eternal victory.
In the river mouth is a large island that houses the grand bazaar where merchants from all around come to trade. It has bridges that extend north and south over the river (both bridges have gatehouses and traffic is strictly controlled)
Both the northern and southern quarters have port facilities. The southern ones are for the big boats and are very expensive. The northern one is a wonky wooden jetty or two extending out into a mudbank. Gilgeamesq will destroy the southern docks during 1356 DR when he battles a dragon turtle.
Beneath the city are two distinct but linked layers of under city which correspond to the two floods that buried the city in silt.
The first layer is where the cult of tiamat thrives and other outcast groups from above. The deeper layer is filled with spooky monsters like Ereshikigul, and creatures known as "the buried". These monsters prey on the citizenry above and there are a lot of stories about the boogiemen who eat little children etc which are based on the predations of these monsters.
Im undecided upon where the big arena will be located. It cant be in the southern quarter as the nobles would never let the freebooters and slaves in to watch and it cant be in the southern quarter as the nobles would never set foot in that hovel. So im thinking another island in the river mouth.
As for Ereshikigul. Im thinking at the moment that she was a renegade godking from Akanu known as Ere-Shiki, who sided with the elves and fey against Akanu. Ghul is an untheric word for snake.
Gilgeamesq captured Ere-Shiki and brought her in chains to Adanu. When he became king of Akanu he started experimenting on her and twisted her form into a half human, half serpent with strange powers (like the ability to petrify people with a look or twist their form with a touch). She was left abandoned in Adanu's dungeons when Gilgeamesq became godking of Unther. When Adanu was flooded (the same year as the flood of Unthalass), Ere-Shiki escaped and followed Gilgeamesq to Unthalass where she waits her chance for revenge.
Just a few ideas thus far |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 01:01:43
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Theres a good reason why the Yuirwood is full of half-elves... where do you think all those refugees fled every time the coast got destroyed?
They wait for stuff to cool down, and then they go back and rebuild. Sometimes a generation of three later.
And suddenly I am struck with the image of a 'redneck elf' with a piece of hay sticking out of his teeth, saying, "Them damn refugees coming in here in our country, and breeding with our wimenfolk! Taint natural, I tell ya!"
Ummmm... didn't they even build a HUGE wall? {ducks head and runs} |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Jan 2018 01:02:24 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2018 : 12:25:25
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Okay. I need the help of experts on the Shaar as the history of Unther impacts the history of the Shaar quite a bit and as typical for FR its confusing and contradicting.
So there is a quote that prior to the Orcgate Wars the empire of Unther has control of the Shaar and Dambrath etc. That means sometime between -2000 DR and -1000 DR Unther controls large swathes of land in the eastern and possibly central Shaar.
However around 205 DR Eltabranar attacks Mulhorand and Unther. Eltabranar is located in the Eastern Shaar and therefore that means sometime between -1000 DR and 200 DR Unther lost control of its provinces.
Then around 400 DR Shoon and Unther come into conflict in the Central Shaar and both empires eventually lose control of the whole region. This means that between 200 DR and 400 DR Unther regains control over Central and Eastern Shaar and then loses it all in a war with Shoon.
To further muddy the waters the Dwarves of the Great Rift have not been in conflict with the surface for the last 200 years and they hold a grudge against Unther and will not trade with them. Does this mean Unther and the Great Rift had a war around 200 years ago (unlikely given Unther's current state and its decline since GIlgeam's accession) or does it mean Unther and the Great Rift went to war much longer ago and the Great Rift had another war with surface dwellers in the Shaar 200 years ago.
Also in Dambrath I know the Arkauins of Eltabranar headed south and merged with natives to form the natives of Dambrath before it was conquered by the drow and then ruled by the crinti. But the queen of Dambrath is preparing in case Unther comes to reclaim its territory. Does this mean Unther took Dambrath from the Arkauins (pursued them to Dambrath and subjugated them thus establishing the cities of Dambrath after 200 DR) or is there a recent conflict.
My initial thoughts are as follows.
Unther expands around -1300 DR to conquer the Eastern Shaar and the lands of Luiren and Dambrath. -1076 DR the Orcgate opens and Unther pulls all its troops out of southern lands to fight the wars.
-1064 DR Ashanath opens a portal founding its twin capital of Shaundalar in the COuncil Hills. THis means Unther effectively loses control of the Eastern Shaar and all lands south which degenerate into nomadism once more. Unther doesn't care about the loss of colonies however as it is dealing with the destruction of most of its godkings.
-946 DR Shaundaular is destroyed.
-734 DR Gilgeam is crowned God-King of Unther and expansion begins once again. Slowly Unther begins to encroach upon the former territory of Shaundaular coming into conflict with the natives.
Sometime between -734 and 100 DR is when Unther established/acquired Peleveran possibly taking it from the gold dwarves that lived there originally.
205 DR Eltabranar attacks Unther and Mulhorand conquering the settlements in Central and Eastern Shaar and southern parts of Unther and Mulhorand.
210 DR Unther and Mulhorand defeat Eltabranar. The Arkauins flee south to Dambrath pursued slowly by Unther.
300 DR Unther occupies Dambrath and subjugates the Arkauins again establishing cities like Shantil and Hazuth.
420 DR Unther and Shoon go to war. Unther is unable to control far flung provinces in Dambrath and Luiren so they become effectively independent.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2018 : 01:00:24
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Did you know there were a pair of Rakshasa necromancers (Al'Chazar Rakshasa, 3e MM3, pg.135) operating out of Unthalas in 3e? They were stirring unrest in Chessenta as well. I wonder what sort of things may have happened to them when it all went to Abeir.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2018 : 21:50:36
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| I like that Deux Ex machina for changing canon. It works well there. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Reimagining Old Empires
