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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Jul 2017 : 03:32:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
First off, Darkvision had almost NOTHING to do with Imaskar, except for the main character having come from Deep Imaskar (which was still 'deep' at the time). There was a small scene (I loved) wherein she camps-out in an Imaskari ruin (funny how no-one found it before an actual Imaskari was wandering around), and they also get into a bit about the Palace of the Purple Emperor (another ruin...sort of*), and how all that relates to Pandorym. Its very specific plot-points, and there is pretty much nothing about how Imaskari interact with Mulhorandi (in fact, come to think of it, that novel was late 3e, NOT 4e - they were still underground!)
Second, as for people having their memories of Abeir: YES, that does happen. Not everyone's 'memory fades', but we can use that plot-device to explain how some people remember things differently ("Didn't Unther blowup? How can you guys still be alive when the whole thing blew up?") In other words, it would appear that it was the people Left behind on Toril that had 'false memories' (and thats how we explain-away the retcons). People also remember Halruaa blowing up as well.
Mostly I just wanted this as an excuse as to why people saw 'ruins' of Mulhorand and Unther on Toril, and yet, those same exact places were just fine over in Abeir. people saw ruins and recalled the stuff getting destroyed, but that was part of the 'interdimensional trickery' that was going on. Overgods play a 'shell game' with geographic regions like this, apparently.
Man, I hope they left Chult detached, but given their recent focus on the area, I doubt it. How are they going to 'UN-blowup' something like THAT? 
*And this just made me realize I can use this to fix a snafu I ran into while reading the novel. The PotPE is an actual, ancient ruin in the sourcebooks, *** Spoiler Alert! *** and yet, that's not what it was at all in the novel. It returned - in a different spot no less - intact (IIRC). So NOW I'm thinking it may have gone to Abeir (or elsewhere) when the Mulan Gods were wrecking the place, and a 'false ruin' was left in place for folks to find. All those gods stomping around (from three - later four - pantheons!) was almost like a region-specific ToT, and probably had a lot of the same 'magical chaos' going on. I think its a good fit.
Its no weirder than Elminster going around and restocking dungeons in his spare time. 
I actual want to see that little peninsula that contained Samarach, Thindol, etc.. restored. However, the areas that "collapsed beneath the oceans" I want them returned, but full of Abeirans. Then rework those areas. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2017 : 03:43:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Bane could if the Toril Bane is actually not "Bane" but the godson,Iyachtu Xvim, posing as Bane. If the artifact known as "The Black Lord's Cloak" that's in Mourktar which is said to be intelligent actually maintains some link to the actual Bane, and if Mourktar transferred to Abeir.
Ohh! That is interesting. What happened to Mourktar, according to canon? Wasn't it involved in a novel somewhere and was still on Toril?
Although, even if it went over to Abeir, and we managed to link all that stuff up, it would be odd for Bane to strike up an alliance with a demon lord rather than an arch devil. Unfortunately, that much--the bit about Gilgeam striking up an alliance with Graz'zt--appears to be written into canon.
That being said, I always loved Mourktar and the Church of Bane there. Since it was never described in the Realms how Bane returned, in my home Realms Bane came back in a similar manner to what you described with the aid of this cult. They ultimately conquered Threskel and then the lands of Unther.
To my knowledge Mourktar was never mentioned in 4e. It wasn't on any maps. The area it occupied is shown as water (just like Messemprar to its south. Its almost like Threskel and northern Unther "disappeared"..... hmmmmm, spellplague? Transferred to Abeir even if just in portions?
Yes, the part about "Gilgeam" working with Graz'zt is canon. Just to make things interesting... you should note that this implies a very serious planar change to Abeir. It had access to the abyss. Remember that prior to the spellplague, the world was supposed to not have contact to any outer planes, etc.... Of course, the abyss temporarily became a part of the elemental chaos during 4e. What this has said to me is that a lot of the things that the people of Toril believed about Abeir MAY NOT HAVE BEEN TRUE FOLLOWING THE SPELLPLAGUE. So, for instance, this idea that no gods could be on Abeir..... just may be untrue. The idea that there is no weave on Abeir at all, may be untrue (Erin's novels has them go to an area that contains the bones of a primordial, so it wouldn't be surprising if said area were magic dead while the rest of Abeir has been developing a weave for the past hundred years). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2017 : 03:50:08
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
(that grey swirl you see on the 4e map).
Many of these grey areas of the map were plaguelands as well. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2017 : 03:58:34
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| Mourktar is mentioned in the Brotherhood of the Griffon novels. It was part of Threskel when this was a independent nation, and then became part of Chessenta when Tchazzar conquered Threskel. Now that Chessenta isn't an unified country anymore, I guess Mourktar is an independent city state. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2017 : 04:07:22
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yes, the part about "Gilgeam" working with Graz'zt is canon. Just to make things interesting... you should note that this implies a very serious planar change to Abeir. It had access to the abyss. Remember that prior to the spellplague, the world was supposed to not have contact to any outer planes, etc.... Of course, the abyss temporarily became a part of the elemental chaos during 4e. What this has said to me is that a lot of the things that the people of Toril believed about Abeir MAY NOT HAVE BEEN TRUE FOLLOWING THE SPELLPLAGUE. So, for instance, this idea that no gods could be on Abeir..... just may be untrue. The idea that there is no weave on Abeir at all, may be untrue (Erin's novels has them go to an area that contains the bones of a primordial, so it wouldn't be surprising if said area were magic dead while the rest of Abeir has been developing a weave for the past hundred years).
Well, you have to take into account that, before the Spellplague, Abeir was closest to the Elemental Chaos, while Toril was closest to the Astral Plane/Sea. And, as you said, after the Spellplague, Asmodeus moved the Abyss to the Elemental Chaos in a failed attempt to win the Blood War. So, at that point, the Abyss, beign in the Elemental Chaos, became closer to Abeir.
On the other hand, according to Chirs Perkins in one of the WotC podcasts while and after the Sundering 2.0, the passage between Abeir and Toril, and other planes, became easier. Currently, one can "move easily" between those two worlds.
As for the Weave on Abeir, Ed said this. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 24 Jul 2017 04:10:19 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2017 : 06:06:44
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I forgot there was something about Ususi(sp?) becoming the leader of New Imaskar. There was absolutely nothing in the novel (that I can recall) that gives any indication that this would have been a possibility. Sounds kind of silly, actually. She was just a 'scout' checking out the surface world, to see if they could return. Although I think the ending may have turned her into a hero (thats sometimes happens in novels. Me? I prefer when the main character dies in the end; A 'good' death).
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
lol, my post was for Markustay and his theory of the simulated Abeir.
Actually, I think Ravenloft is only part simulation - it can't just steal everything it wants, so it has to copy some things, and either Overgods or through some sort of automatic process of the universe, when large swaths of geography (and the peoples living there) got swapped-out through 'magical chaos' (or interdimensional chicanery, if you prefer), some sort of 'blur' tool is used to make peoples memories hazy or even outright false, and 'ruins' are left in place of what was there, to help explain-away the event (because poor little mortals can't really handle the fact that EVERYTHING is "just made up", and reality itself gets rewritten all the time). Two good examples of this - the creepy movie Dark City, wherein everything changes every night, and no-one ever remembers, and in the recent Westworld series - the robots ('Hosts') don't remember their past lives. At least, they're not supposed to (when they did, well, that's what the series is all about). One 'woman' goes looking for a daughter she had in a past life, even though she knows none of it is real.
But I'm not saying any of the stuff that gets swapped back and forth between Abeir and Toril isn't real, except for maybe the fake ruins... or are they fake? Or are they the real thing, but from an alternate set of probabilities? So that is what was supposed to be left behind, before some Overpower snatched away the stuff just before it was destroyed?
Powerful magical items, specific mortals, sacred relics, etc., can't be duplicated precisely - there will be flaws, and they'll never be as good/powerful as the original. In fact, the dead bodies don't even matter - they're just physical material that is part of the plane - all that matters are the souls. They can just have new bodies generated for them when they arrive (like how Rezzing works). A person could probably even see their own dead body if they get back fast enough (I used to love seeing my own skeleton in one particular video game, after I respawned).
So you strip the souls out just before the event, and then fabricate a new place for them to live on the other end (so maybe the ruins are the real part). Not really a whole lot of difference between this, and regular dying and going to an afterlife. When everything comes back, you are just 'rezzing' everyone and magically recreating their environment. At Overgod-levels of power, the line between reality and illusion no longer matters.
In fact, you can even go so far as to 'borrow' bits of another reality (a different branch of prophesies/probabilities) and 'fill in the gaps' on your world, where stuff went missing. But now I am getting a little Rick & Morty here. Basically, the Unther and Mulhorand we now have may be a 'might have been' version of them. Anything really goes when Gods & Magic are involved. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Jul 2017 19:43:39 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2017 : 13:30:13
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So, more like nearly exact, but still branching timelines? I like that theory, but still we need to explain why the staff of Azuth seems to be a singularity to use this theory.
BTW, something I forgot to add to the Old Empires clarifications:
1. Akanūl. I've mentioned it, but didn't clarified its role.
Akanūl is a kingdom of Abeiran genasi from Shyr that were sent to Toril in the aftermath of the Spellplague. While not affected by the Spellplague proper, in 1386 one part of Abeir violently exchanged/transposed parts with Toril, in the Chessentan/Chondathan frontier. A great portion of the kingdom of Shyr was brought to Toril in that event and the original lands in those parts of Toril, including the city of Airspur, were destroyed. The surviving abeiran genasi founded a lot of cities in the newly blended lands of the Chesentan/Chondathan frontier and their lands of Shyr, and fought among themselves for two decades until a genasi noble was able to become king and unite the abeiran genasi as a new nation: Akanūl.
In 1429, the Abolethic Sovereignity (an organization of sorts made up by the primeval, first aboleths from the original world of Abeir-Toril) destroyed Akanūl capital, Brassune, forcing the genasi to relocate themselves to the ruins of Airspur. They rebuilt the city and made it their new capital.
We don't know what happened with Akanūl in the Sundering 2.0, as the SCAG don't mention it at all, and says Airspur is part of Chessenta. However, current Airspur seems to be same as it was in 4e. The SCAG mention is a "flying city" (as it was in 4e), as the earthmotes (flying chunks of earth caused by the Spellplague) that make up the rebuilt Airspur somehow still float, even after the Sundering 2.0 caused others across Faerūn to fall.
We also know that the SCAG either downplays or outright ignore 4e stuff, maybe to appeal to grognards, but when we read other sources (like novels and such) we find that some 4e stuff still applies, so... we can assume Akanūl still exist in some form (the Candlecanon will have to deal with this).
Chondath was utterly destroyed, BTW. Between the arrival of Tymanther and most of Shyr, the place was either destroyed, transposed to Abeir, or both. Its not mentioned in the SCAG, so, it wasn't canonically revived like other lands destroyed by the Spellplague. Like if Ao forgot about it...
2. Okoth, the REAL Old Empire, is rebuilt by 1479, however the sarrukh maintained this as a top-secret. For the rest of the world, Okoth is "still in ruins". The sarrukh in 4e were "re-invigorating" their race, breeding a new generation of sarrukhs and yuan-ti, and those serpent-races... they also worship Set, and were also waging a secret war of sorts against the serpent-races of other places, who worshiped Sseth and Zehir*.
We can use Okoth to the fullest in the CKCanon. Maybe as the puppetmasters of the Old Empires of the new age.
*Zehir is an interloper serpent god from the 4e Core World/Nentir Vale, that got himself in the Realms because, by mistake, the developers of Neverwinter Nights 2 used him as the god of the yuan-ti in the game. WotC acknowledged the mistake, but still mentioned Zehir as one of the Faerunian gods in the 4e FR Campaign Guide. Some products hint that Zehir and Set are one and the same. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 24 Jul 2017 13:52:08 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2017 : 14:48:52
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| The Forces of Sseth had, already over thrown the Set worshippers in 4e in Okoth partly because Set had disappeared in 4e along with the rest of the Mulhorandi Pantheon. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2017 : 20:47:04
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I think the 'World serpent' is just another name for what I call 'The Ymir' (the First world, which is very similar to the Norse cosmology), and when that First World (dimension, really) got 'shattered' (Sundered), it is reflected in the consciousness of the plane itself, thus, the World Serpent sentience was shattered into dozens, if not thousands (millions?) of pieces as well. This is reflected by the canon we have in Serpent Kingdoms - just about all 'scaly' gods are aspects of the World Serpent.
So if we go with my (D&D) Body, Mind, & Soul theories about the nature of the universe, we have the Shattering/Sundering reflected in the Body (multiverse) and Mind (World Serpent), but what of 'the Soul'? What if the damage of that first death to The Ymir was different in each - The Mind was only fragmented in a few dozen parts, the body into millions of pieces (all the 'matter' in the Prime Material Plane - the worlds and other chunks), but the soul of that Elder God was shattered into trillions upon trillions of tiny bits? What if, every time a mortal is born, a miniscule fraction of that ancient, Elder Soul winds up inside them? What if thats all mortals souls are? 
It could be why they're so valuable (even used as currency) in the Outer Planes. Its the one priceless, finite, resource. The only piece of one of the Sidereals that lesser beings can have and control. And maybe they are 'magnetic' in nature (the Law of Contagion in magic, or 'Spooky Physics' {Quantum Entanglement} in RW physics) - it attracts more of that 'soul energy' to it, and the 'biggest, brightest' souls attract the most (like an electromagnet, the more power you put into it, the more its going to pull).
ANYHOW, this all related to the Old Empires through those 'Manifestations' (either spelled with a capital 'M', or just say Greater Manifestations, since any little thing a god does that mortals notice is technically a 'manifestation'), among other things (like the fact that a lot of those scaly gods/aspects of the World serpent are/were highly active in the region). Set might be the most paramount of the aspects, having achieved dominance over many of the other aspects over time (is it reconstituting itself in this manner? Is it like the Immortals in the Highlander series?) I see similar things happening with other Gods, like Malar for instance (he absorbed Herne, or would that be 'reabsorbed'? Who really knows...)
As for the Staff of Azuth: Going with everything I have above, and how I picture the universe working, the staff is unique. Physical matter (Body) is NOT - its says in many early D&D products that creatures of the inner and outer planes are just created out of the 'Planestuff' itself. So why wouldn't this be true of the Prime Material - we see how people can get new bodies, and we can build structures out of thin air. The 'physicality' of something doesn't really matter at all. Thats just the universe giving you something to look at while you are dealing with it. So the staff itself - what we see - isn't whats unique. it has to contain some bits of something - Mind and/or Soul - of something very powerful. Shar & Selūne are ancient powers - maybe its been collecting some of that energy that went astray when the two had their battle. Or maybe its just been collecting souls, like an uber-phylactory (all those 'Weave Ghosts' maybe come from it?)
Whatever the case may be, it contains something ancient and powerful. Something that can't be duplicated with raw physical matter, or even ordinary divine or arcane magic. Maybe all artifacts (and relics) are like that - back in the day a caster had to imbue magical items with a bit of their 'soul stuff', which I believe was done mechanically by losing some Constitution (IIRC). I would imagine an artifact would be even more of a drain - perhaps linked directly with the creator while they still lived, and then their 'soul stuff' gets absorbed by it when they die? I know quite a few artifacts have sentiences of their own, and 'Legacy items' are like spontaneous artifacts - they just 'happen over time', and absorb the energy (souls) of their users. Since relics contain bits of Gods (or at least Saints/demipowers), they would also have this connection.
So imagine an artifact connected directly to Mystra's Weave, that has access to all that 'soul energy' thats ever been poured into it (and not just her Chosen, there's also all the Magisters, and possibly even a few gods and even her mortal followers, to some extent). Maybe the staff is a way to directly access all of that.
Non-Godly matters: Basically, everything about what is 'real' and what is just a 'copy' doesn't really matter. In fact, if something is a perfect duplicate (just the physical matter involved), why does it even matter? Both with be just as 'real'. The universe is nothing more than an infinite number of sub-microscopic particles that can be rearranged anyway we want... we just need the power to do so. 'Reality', therefor, isn't even real (and now I am starting to wax RW metaphysical). Its just all being held together by something else, and the moment that something else stops holding it all together, it ceases to exist. The 'Planestuff' is just playdoh for the 'Powers on High', especially those out beyond the tier of 'Deity'. And the Prime Material is just as malleable as everything else, once you start to scratch the surface.
So all the inconsistencies, retcons, 'New Lore', etc., etc., don't really matter; What was true before was true. What is true now is true. If they disagree with each other, it doesn't really matter. Something (powerful) somewhere just decided to make a change, and thats just the way it is. From a meta-game perspective we know its just some folks over in Renton, WA, but in-game, we can just blame it all on 'forces beyond our ken'. Stuff happened, and Overgods and what-not patched it the best they could. That's what happens when UBER-Powers have disagreements. When you get into a car accident (and its not 'totaled'), you just have a new fender slapped on and some fresh paint. Its just like that. Unless someone saw it while it was still broken, most folks aren't even going to know you did anything at all. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Jul 2017 20:48:45 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2017 : 11:58:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Mourktar is mentioned in the Brotherhood of the Griffon novels. It was part of Threskel when this was a independent nation, and then became part of Chessenta when Tchazzar conquered Threskel. Now that Chessenta isn't an unified country anymore, I guess Mourktar is an independent city state.
I'll be damned. Yeah, I just went into the google books copy of captive flame and sure enough its in there. Doesn't make sense because on the 4e map that whole place is just water (i.e. it extended more eastward than Messemprar, and the water extends westward of Messemprar as you go north). This becomes one of those things where "is an author's mention of something more important than the fact that that whole swathe of the map is gone". So, we have one of 4 options as I see it
A) Eastern Threskel transferred to Abeir along with Northern Unther and there was no Mourktar and the novel is wrong.
B)In the weirdness of the Sundering, Threskel shrank and somehow Mourktar was pulled a few hundred miles westward, not liking this.
C)Eastern Threskel transferred to Abeir along with Northern Unther and the people of Threskel built a new port city, which they named Mourktar, in honor of the fallen, after the spellplague.
And in the above transferred could easily be replaced with copied to create other options such as
D) in the weirdness of the Sundering, Threskel shrank. A copy of Mourktar was moved a few hundred miles westward, closer to Mt. Thulbane. Meanwhile the vast majority of the copy of Threskel transferred to Abeir. In this copying, many parts of Threskel ended up in ruins, some disappeared, and roughly half the population was gone.
I think C or D would work the best. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 25 Jul 2017 12:14:03 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2017 : 12:01:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
(that grey swirl you see on the 4e map).
Many of these grey areas of the map were plaguelands as well.
Yeah, this came from the 4e dungeon magazine article on Chessenta. It turned that grey swirl into the Maw of the Godswallower. However, that doesn't mean the "Godswallower" only had one maw either, and that COULD be used to introduce something interesting as well, especially if the plaguelands were dangerous enough that few came close to them. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2017 : 12:18:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
So, more like nearly exact, but still branching timelines? I like that theory, but still we need to explain why the staff of Azuth seems to be a singularity to use this theory.
BTW, something I forgot to add to the Old Empires clarifications:
1. Akanūl. I've mentioned it, but didn't clarified its role.
Akanūl is a kingdom of Abeiran genasi from Shyr that were sent to Toril in the aftermath of the Spellplague. While not affected by the Spellplague proper, in 1386 one part of Abeir violently exchanged/transposed parts with Toril, in the Chessentan/Chondathan frontier. A great portion of the kingdom of Shyr was brought to Toril in that event and the original lands in those parts of Toril, including the city of Airspur, were destroyed. The surviving abeiran genasi founded a lot of cities in the newly blended lands of the Chesentan/Chondathan frontier and their lands of Shyr, and fought among themselves for two decades until a genasi noble was able to become king and unite the abeiran genasi as a new nation: Akanūl.
In 1429, the Abolethic Sovereignity (an organization of sorts made up by the primeval, first aboleths from the original world of Abeir-Toril) destroyed Akanūl capital, Brassune, forcing the genasi to relocate themselves to the ruins of Airspur. They rebuilt the city and made it their new capital.
We don't know what happened with Akanūl in the Sundering 2.0, as the SCAG don't mention it at all, and says Airspur is part of Chessenta. However, current Airspur seems to be same as it was in 4e. The SCAG mention is a "flying city" (as it was in 4e), as the earthmotes (flying chunks of earth caused by the Spellplague) that make up the rebuilt Airspur somehow still float, even after the Sundering 2.0 caused others across Faerūn to fall.
We also know that the SCAG either downplays or outright ignore 4e stuff, maybe to appeal to grognards, but when we read other sources (like novels and such) we find that some 4e stuff still applies, so... we can assume Akanūl still exist in some form (the Candlecanon will have to deal with this).
Chondath was utterly destroyed, BTW. Between the arrival of Tymanther and most of Shyr, the place was either destroyed, transposed to Abeir, or both. Its not mentioned in the SCAG, so, it wasn't canonically revived like other lands destroyed by the Spellplague. Like if Ao forgot about it...
2. Okoth, the REAL Old Empire, is rebuilt by 1479, however the sarrukh maintained this as a top-secret. For the rest of the world, Okoth is "still in ruins". The sarrukh in 4e were "re-invigorating" their race, breeding a new generation of sarrukhs and yuan-ti, and those serpent-races... they also worship Set, and were also waging a secret war of sorts against the serpent-races of other places, who worshiped Sseth and Zehir*.
We can use Okoth to the fullest in the CKCanon. Maybe as the puppetmasters of the Old Empires of the new age.
*Zehir is an interloper serpent god from the 4e Core World/Nentir Vale, that got himself in the Realms because, by mistake, the developers of Neverwinter Nights 2 used him as the god of the yuan-ti in the game. WotC acknowledged the mistake, but still mentioned Zehir as one of the Faerunian gods in the 4e FR Campaign Guide. Some products hint that Zehir and Set are one and the same.
Personally, on the Akanul front, this was an underdeveloped area of the realms. It had some villages that were fighting over lumber rights. Airspur was a city filled with a lot of half-orcs. I'm perfectly happy letting this portion of 4e stay. It was good development. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2017 : 13:15:11
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Doesn't make sense because on the 4e map that whole place is just water (i.e. it extended more eastward than Messemprar, and the water extends westward of Messemprar as you go north).
I remember Markustay said (when I was pestering him about his maps  ) that he once asked about the 4e map to the WotC guys, and they said that the map was more "evocative" than realistic. Well, he said this about Laerakond/Returned Abeir's map, but I guess this can apply to all of the 4e map.
If you look the map of BRJ's Chessenta article is unlike the 4e map. Tymanther's map in Erin's novels, also doesn't look like the 4e map (Erin's one is more realistic). So... I wouldn't be taking the 4e map so seriously. Is just to give the players an idea of the area, but not something so exact like the maps of previous editions...
That was the main reason I drawn my map of the Old Empires using the older editions' maps as references instead the 4e map. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 25 Jul 2017 13:20:50 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2017 : 16:39:35
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Re: Mourktar and the Maps.
Zeromaru X's suggestion will probably keep us the sanest--just ignore the 4E Maps, and try and draw them as best we can by using what we know from the canon.
I think the bigger issue we are facing is not the maps themselves. It is where canon contradicts itself--where a place is both a ruin on Toril and somehow transferred to Abeir.
I think it was Zeromaru X who also suggested that we say that we are not dealing with "one" for "one" giant land transfers, but rather bits and pieces swapped. This allows us to say certain sections of the city were swapped to Abeir, parts of Abeir were swapped to Toril and destroyed the rest of the city that was left behind. Those who made it to Abeir, if the place appears to still exist, simply rebuilt it.
...we say something like that, then we can sort of just yada, yada, yada away and pretend that it all makes sense. Trying to over explain something will drive us insane, especially since the original decision to do what was done was so hamfisted. Just find the most simple explanation possible that does not require us to think too deeply about it, then quickly move on--no point in spilling ink over someone elses mistake. We will just paper over it with future lore, and maybe try and find some way to write serious mistakes out of existence. (I.E. A city exists in two places, so we use the Candlekanon to explain how this is possible, and then destroy one of them.)
....Meanwhile, I am working on writing something for the Cult of Gilgeam. I will share it when it is done. I have been reading and going through old lore, and I have been super busy the past couple of days. Everything that has shared has been immensely useful. |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2017 : 16:47:22
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
To my knowledge Mourktar was never mentioned in 4e. It wasn't on any maps. The area it occupied is shown as water (just like Messemprar to its south. Its almost like Threskel and northern Unther "disappeared"..... hmmmmm, spellplague? Transferred to Abeir even if just in portions?
The original sketch map I designed for the 4E Chessenta article originally covered a much wider area (covering the same square miles as Vaasa and Cormyr maps that proceeded it). In the expanded map (linked here), you see that Mourktar and Messemprar were indeed submerged beneath the Alamber Sea.
Sadly, there was no traffic cop coordinating content between the designers and novel department, so RLB was unaware this map existed when penning his novels set in the region.
And just for fun, here is a pic of the sketch map I started working on for Tymanther. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
Edited by - Brian R. James on 25 Jul 2017 16:58:55 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2017 : 16:57:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
To my knowledge Mourktar was never mentioned in 4e. It wasn't on any maps. The area it occupied is shown as water (just like Messemprar to its south. Its almost like Threskel and northern Unther "disappeared"..... hmmmmm, spellplague? Transferred to Abeir even if just in portions?
The original sketch map I designed for the 4E Chessenta article originally covered a much wider area (covering the same square miles as Vaasa and Cormyr maps that proceeded it). In the expanded map (linked here), you see that Mourktar and Messemprar were indeed submerged beneath the Alamber Sea.
Sadly, there was no traffic cop coordinating content between the designers and novel department, so RLB was unaware this map existed when penning his novels set in the region.
Going off what I said above, is it possible to do the following: claiming that the land around Mourktar transferred to Abeir / was destroyed, but the city itself survived on an island. Then there was major damage to the city (as happened for the entire region) in the immediate aftermath of the land swap, but the survivors rebuilt the destroyed parts of the city.
Is there any travel/siege sequences for the city in the novels that would refute that it exists on an island? If so, I guess we will just have to retcon the maps. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2017 : 17:15:40
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Well, in the novel Jhesrhi and Ulraess reach Mourktar on horses, so... yes, island stuff contradicts canon. However, in the novels Mourktar was Threskel's main port-city.
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
In the expanded map (linked here), you see that Mourktar and Messemprar were indeed submerged beneath the Alamber Sea.
If you don't mind, can I use your map to update my own map? |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 25 Jul 2017 17:19:10 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2017 : 17:24:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Well, in the novel Jhesrhi and Ulraess reach Mourktar on horses, so... yes, island stuff contradicts canon. However, in the novels Mourktar was Threskel's main port-city.
Well, I guess that settles it then. We gotta retcon the map to make sure Mourktar stays. We can just say that the port district of the city sustained damage from high tidal waves or something, and had to be rebuilt. Sigh. |
Edited by - Aldrick on 25 Jul 2017 17:26:22 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2017 : 19:08:40
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Well, it doesn't really present a problem at all - the rest of BRJ's sketch never actually made it into canon, which makes it technically 'fanon' (or psuedo-canon if you prefer), and we can ignore those particular inconsistencies. No need to give ourselves headaches over 'might have beens'.
Not trying to be a jerk or anything, but the rule is that officially published FR material (in any medium) is canon. What Ed says is also canon, UNLESS over-written by something published. What other official designers say/think is psuedo-canonical, which means we can take it as canon (if we want to), unless it is over-written by something published... which is the case here.
Of course, then there is the new 4e "I don't give a crap" rule, which means you can just ignore anything you want, and write whatever you want.. which is why a lot of people now think the entire concept of 'canon' no longer even exists in FR. Whats the point of having canon, when the next group of writers can change it all? Its how most 'shared worlds' eventually slide into the sewer.
Now, all that aside, once again I'd go with my "use the canon to fix the canon" approach. And if you are creative enough, you can even take inconsistencies and spin them into something pretty damn cool. Is the only problem Mourktar? I like Aldrick's suggestion above. Massive tidal waves destroyed a good part of the city, and the rest was left submerged for a time (as waters continued to rush into the Alamber), but eventually the waters receded back to more normally levels, and some parts of the city - parts on higher ground - were resettled, and newer areas were built further away from the original coast. So parts are brand new, parts are old and refurbished, and some parts are still underwater - sounds like a pretty cool adventuring locale to me.
And I picture the city to be something akin to how Marsember looks, but with perhaps smaller 'islands' (where the Old City survived). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Jul 2017 21:54:38 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2017 : 21:29:41
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| Well, yes, that's a good approach. We have to remember that between 3.5 and 4e there are almost 100 years of difference (94 years, to be exact), and something like that can happen. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2017 : 21:30:21
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| Well, yes, that's a good approach. We have to remember that between 3.5 and 4e there are almost 100 years of difference (94 years, to be exact), and something like that can happen. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2017 : 21:52:29
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Hey, Brian - what map did you use as a base for that? I can't get it to lineup with what I have (the only one I no longer use for a reference is 3e, because obviously that edition was 'incorrect' about the geography, since we've returned to the earlier layout). Since thats 4e, I guess I should assume you used 3e as the base map?
I'm going to have to do some weird stretching to see how stuff falls out with the newer (older) geography. I'm trying to throw-together (real 'fast & dirty' - I don't want to bog down with yet another project) of how I see things may have more organically 'evolved', if we say the seas came in and then retreated. Besides the bunch of tiny islands for the city itself, I am also picturing the Alamber Sea filled with dozens of islands now, and I am going to have to superimpose the pre-cataclysm map with the post-cataclysm map to get an approximation of what 4e should/could be.
EDIT:
I just tried the 3e map, and I can't get that one to lineup either. There's really no way to make any of that work. What are we having a problem with? (aside from the inconsistent lore about Mourktar.) Is it the fact that the SCAG/5e says Tymanther is still there?
EDIT2:
Okay, so now I am looking at the 4e map (which I haven't looked at in at least 7 years), and I remember why I stopped looking at it. But I had to, to see where all these problems are stemming from.
Lance lake?
As if 'Ash Lake' wasn't bad enough ("lets take the one area that already has a few good lakes, and move them all around!") I am getting that same feeling I had back in 2007... and I didn't miss it.
So I am just going to ignore all of that for now and ask another (somewhat related) question: What about Lurien? Its not even there! There was no terrain-swap with Abeir - its literally just a giant hole. Does anyone know about Luiren in 5e? I think that may be even harder than patching Halruaa and the Chultan peninsula back together. In fact, I know it is. At least the Halruaans had magic you can blame stuff on.
No wonder Mike Schley's 5e map stops where it does. No one can figure out how to show that mess. I was told "the geography all went back to the old layout" by someone who should know, but if they are keeping some of the 4e changes, thats going to be impossible to rectify. I got a ginormous hole where a country used to be!
EDIT3
The one thing I DO like is that the Great Sea is now connected to the Alamber sea (it might be 'seasonal' - hard to tell with that map). THAT could be interesting - it changes trade quite a bit, and makes formally unimportant regions very important. I may have to play with that a bit - they seem to have lost an entire mountain range (mountains don't just get 'washed away'), and if the mountains became a string of islands... survivors? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Jul 2017 03:17:47 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2017 : 22:54:52
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Enough edits...
Looking at Mike Schley's pre-5e (Sundering?) B&W map of the Realms, I see they had already 'lost' Lance lake at that point, so I'll just consider that a 'mistake' on the ugly 4e map (maybe stick a small lake with that name down there somewhere.
And then there is the Underchasm, and all that mess. Any word on any of that? Are the dwarves all gone? Whats the deal there? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Jul 2017 04:08:48 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2017 : 23:05:54
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I get that the 4e map may not be taken seriously, but these are HUGE landmasses changing, so it might be worth looking into.
Take a second look at BRJ's map versus the 4e map, and then compare that to the 3e map and the 2e map. I have both BRJ's chessenta map and the 4e map as JPEG's. I've got them up side by side right now. I won't say you could overlay one on top of the other, but its damn close enough, especially given that the two are nowhere near the same scale.
Meanwhile the comparison side by side of say the 3e map versus the 4e map for this old empires and unapproachable east regions is also worth comparing. I say this because we especially now know that portions of the old empires did in fact transfer to and survive in Abeir. So, let us take a moment and see what can be done with this (noting, I haven't performed this exercise yet for Mulhorand, so this will be somewhat new for me as well).
So, let's say start at the westernmost part of the Alamber and move east.
In the Akanul area, the cities of Hlath and Reth are roughly replaced by New Breen and Brassune. Note: Thayan enclave documented in Hlath. If it transferred to Abeir, it becomes a potential point for some red wizards for my United Tharchs of Toril.
Laothkund and a large portion of both the wizard's reach and the Yuirwood north of it "drowned" or disappeared. We should note that the wizard's reach was populated by Chessentans/Untherites originally. Loathkund was loosely controlled by the red wizards ever since the salamander war when they conquered it. With the civil war going on at the time of the spellplague, there may have been even more red wizards in the wizard's reach area (because we know that this is where the Zulkirs also eventually fled to). So, leading up to the spellplague, Laothkund and Escalant just may have held more red wizards than usual (and ones not liking Tam at that). NOTE TO SELF: Another great place for already having a small "United Tharchs of Toril" presence that suddenly returns, especially since the other Zulkirs were still holed up in Escalant in the wizard's reach in 1478 DR. Especially since I'm also talking about having Cimbar and Soorenar "copied" over somewhat sloppily (thus the ruins here).
A large portion on the western side of the Bay of Chessenta appeared to have "risen" or perhaps a new land mass appeared from Abeir (this area became swampland).
Continuing East, we come to Threskel, where it seems like the main peninsula area that jutted out into the Alamber is gone, which is where Mourktar had been. Contiguous to this mass of land and islands, portions of Northern Unther around what would have been Messemprar and Shusssel and possibly some of the Riders to the Sky Mountains and some interior land to the southeast of each is gone. So, basically much of "northern Unther".
Moving southward from there, we see more land uncovered near Unthlass, taking it away from the shore and large juts of land shooting out on the Mulhorand side near Gheldaneth and the "ruins of Skuld". To my knowledge, nothing ever done with this extra land add-on. Also, it appears that the "ruins of Skuld" is moved inwards from where Skuld would have existed previously (i.e. it was NW of Gheldaneth before, now its NE). Where "Skyclave" now exists would appear to be where Skuld had been. Ironic since "Skyclave" is in the same spot as the previous capital of Mulhorand, and it is the new capital of High Imaskar. Makes me really wonder about Ususi's role in the spellplague (if any) and when EXACTLY the palace of the purple emperor moved and its ties to the celestial nadir and pandorym. Might we find out that the Palace of the Purple Emperor actually displaced Skuld DURING the spellplague? Might the movement of this place actually have had something to do with the spellplague just as Nevram thought? NOTE TO SELF: going with the previous idea of certain of these areas that are ruins copying over, perhaps imperfectly, resulting in the ruins. This could be a good area to have copied over containing Mulhorandi that didn't bow to the Tyrant of Shyr and still worshipped the Mulhorandi gods.
Then moving further north up the Mulhorandi coastline we see the area that would have been roughly Sultim, Rauthgor, and Rauthil gone (like they too may have disappeared as a big old > shape is dug out of the coastline along a river). Below that are two other long jabs into the land that could have in theory taken out the city of Maerlar as well. None of these though, other than Sultim were anything major, so even if they stayed, not anything major. However, if they did have large contiguous section transfer they might have all gathered say at Sultim and become a city-state.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2017 : 23:19:20
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Answers I know:
Tymanther: Yep, is still there. And geographically seems to be the same as of 4e. Thank Enlil (Erin) for that. (?)
Luirien: In 4e Luirien was drowned by a great inundation. The SCAG says that the water level has receded since, and the territory now have islands and such (but is still a drowned area).
Underschasm: Was filled by Grumbar. The East Rift is probably not filled up, as the earth used to fill the Underchasm does not rise higher than Sadrak's Splinter, which lay on lower ground than the Rift before the Spellplague. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 25 Jul 2017 23:25:10 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2017 : 23:34:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Re: Mourktar and the Maps.
Zeromaru X's suggestion will probably keep us the sanest--just ignore the 4E Maps, and try and draw them as best we can by using what we know from the canon.
I think the bigger issue we are facing is not the maps themselves. It is where canon contradicts itself--where a place is both a ruin on Toril and somehow transferred to Abeir.
I think it was Zeromaru X who also suggested that we say that we are not dealing with "one" for "one" giant land transfers, but rather bits and pieces swapped. This allows us to say certain sections of the city were swapped to Abeir, parts of Abeir were swapped to Toril and destroyed the rest of the city that was left behind. Those who made it to Abeir, if the place appears to still exist, simply rebuilt it.
...we say something like that, then we can sort of just yada, yada, yada away and pretend that it all makes sense. Trying to over explain something will drive us insane, especially since the original decision to do what was done was so hamfisted. Just find the most simple explanation possible that does not require us to think too deeply about it, then quickly move on--no point in spilling ink over someone elses mistake. We will just paper over it with future lore, and maybe try and find some way to write serious mistakes out of existence. (I.E. A city exists in two places, so we use the Candlekanon to explain how this is possible, and then destroy one of them.)
....Meanwhile, I am working on writing something for the Cult of Gilgeam. I will share it when it is done. I have been reading and going through old lore, and I have been super busy the past couple of days. Everything that has shared has been immensely useful.
Well, you'll see where I just posted a kind of review of the 4e map and how we MIGHT turn it into things. I think that can be useful.
However, yes, I agree that its best to gloss as best we can. I actually have I think a good explanation for the idea of areas that were "ruins" in Toril but actually transferred to Abeir. Essentially some placed "mostly transferred" and some of it was "mostly copied" as in it left a copy of some things on Toril AND on Abeir. By that I mean the building may have transferred, to Abeir, but the joists in the wall in one section had some new found gaps. Maybe the neighboring building didn't transfer at all. Maybe some of the citizens transferred safely, some stayed behind, and some... well, let's just say its like a star trek transporter accident.
In doing it this way, we can return places that we liked (like Cimbar and Soorenar) and use their return in a way to create some conflict or interesting interactions with the places that essentially took their place.... because let's fact it, Erebos is a smaller version of Cimbar and Pandrick is a smaller version of Akanax. By that I mean that the Chessentan city of Erebos can still be around, but it can now be a sister city to Cimbar. Or it can remain as Tchazzar's seat of power (since according to the SCAG he's back again), and Cimbar can be the seat of power that he wants to retake (and the people of Cimbar and Soorenar oppose him, having seen dragon kings in Abeir).
Akanax could also "return" (yes, I know its on BRJ's map of Chessenta, but I don't think there was any lore on it), and maybe its actually not like the old city was. Maybe its people have been shattered, and their brethren in Pandrick help them remember their warrior spirit to break the yoke of their genasi overlords that have moved in. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2017 : 23:35:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
To my knowledge Mourktar was never mentioned in 4e. It wasn't on any maps. The area it occupied is shown as water (just like Messemprar to its south. Its almost like Threskel and northern Unther "disappeared"..... hmmmmm, spellplague? Transferred to Abeir even if just in portions?
The original sketch map I designed for the 4E Chessenta article originally covered a much wider area (covering the same square miles as Vaasa and Cormyr maps that proceeded it). In the expanded map (linked here), you see that Mourktar and Messemprar were indeed submerged beneath the Alamber Sea.
Sadly, there was no traffic cop coordinating content between the designers and novel department, so RLB was unaware this map existed when penning his novels set in the region.
And just for fun, here is a pic of the sketch map I started working on for Tymanther.
Did you actually hand draw that? Damn, I wish I had artistic skill. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2017 : 23:50:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Well, it doesn't really present a problem at all - the rest of BRJ's sketch never actually made it into canon, which makes it technically 'fanon' (or psuedo-canon if you prefer), and we can ignore those particular inconsistencies. No need to give ourselves headaches over 'might have beens'.
Not trying to be a jerk or anything, but the rule is that officially published FR material (in any medium) is canon. What Ed says is also canon, UNLESS over-written by something published. What other official designers say/think is psuedo-canonical, which means we can take it as canon (if we want to), unless it is over-written by something published... which is the case here.
Of course, then there is the new 4e "I don't give a crap" rule, which means you can just ignore anything you want, and write whatever you want.. which is why a lot of people now think the entire concept of 'canon' no longer even exists in FR. Whats the point of having canon, when the next group of writers can change it all? Its how most 'shared worlds' eventually slide into the sewer.
Now, all that aside, once again I'd go with my "use the canon to fix the canon" approach. And if you are creative enough, you can even take inconsistencies and spin them into something pretty damn cool. Is the only problem Mourktar? I like Aldrick's suggestion above. Massive tidal waves destroyed a good part of the city, and the rest was left submerged for a time (as waters continued to rush into the Alamber), but eventually the waters receded back to more normally levels, and some parts of the city - parts on higher ground - were resettled, and newer areas were built further away from the original coast. So parts are brand new, parts are old and refurbished, and some parts are still underwater - sounds like a pretty cool adventuring locale to me.
And I picture the city to be something akin to how Marsember looks, but with perhaps smaller 'islands' (where the Old City survived).
Actually, the more I think on it, the more I like the idea that some areas "slid" as things transferred. However, in their "sliding" perhaps they also copied, and maybe didn't "copy" so well. So, like half the city remained and half was ruined.... and it ended up 300 miles westward or eastward of where it was previously on Toril. If we take this "rule", it can explain Mourktar still being around but being more westward. We can also explain Skuld being eastward of where it should Maybe Cimbar didn't actually have the coast rise near it... maybe it "slid" away from the coast and left behind a pile of ruins (while it copied to Abeir).... and with all the people either gone or dead, no one could really figure out the truth in the madness following the spellplague.
You know, to a degree, it could be ALMOST like the Citadel of the Purple Emperor was transferred to where Skuld, the City of Shadows, was and there were these ripples of reality changing that blasted out heavily impacting the areas near it. Wonder if the Celestial Nadir with its extradimensional space..... hmmmm, not completing that sentence until I think more. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2017 : 23:52:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Now, all that aside, once again I'd go with my "use the canon to fix the canon" approach. And if you are creative enough, you can even take inconsistencies and spin them into something pretty damn cool. Is the only problem Mourktar?
Nope. The entire region is a hot mess when it comes to layout, maps, and lore. To re-quote Zeromaru X:
quote:
Well, yes. Most of it was left deliberately unclear. Not even Erin had idea of what WotC wanted by doing that (I talked with her a lot about those novels). So, that is the official material we have to work with.
...
I asked Erin about this, and Erin said that WotC retconned the much of 4e lore while working on their Sundering plot. So, in 4e Unther was actually and utterly destroyed. But they changed/retconned that to return Unther in 5e.
As far as I know Erin has spent more time working on and thinking about this region than other authors in the post-Sundering era. So, Erin's work is the closest thing we have to something that is canon.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I like Aldrick's suggestion above. Massive tidal waves destroyed a good part of the city, and the rest was left submerged for a time (as waters continued to rush into the Alamber), but eventually the waters receded back to more normally levels, and some parts of the city - parts on higher ground - were resettled, and newer areas was built further away from the original coast. so parts are brand new, parts are old and refurbished, and some parts are still underwater - sounds like a pretty cool adventuring locale to me.
And I picture the city to be something akin to how Marsember looks, but with perhaps smaller 'islands' (where the Old City survived).
I like this idea. Maybe the land itself also shifted, helping protect some of the old city. This could have divided the city into three layers, facing the ocean.
The lowest layer, the canal district, is where the land used to be--the entire area was destroyed and wiped clean by the tsunamis that swept the region in the wake of the Spellplague. The survivors of Mourktar dredged the soils to raise the marshy ground above the tides. Numerous tiny marshy islands make up this district, which is traveled by its canal-like streets. In addition to both the docks and the warehouses found here, the other area of major interest is the Maiden's Keep, a temple constructed in honor of the goddess Lovitar, consort of Lord Bane, which also functions as a prison that houses the criminals, mentally ill, political prisoners, and socially undesirables of Mourktar.
The next highest layer is divided from the canal district by a 60-foot high escarpment. This district houses the old city, and its escarpment serves as a natural wall between the canal below and the city proper above. Along the escarpment are defensive fortifications, as well as small towers housing siege equipment--such as trebuchets, catapults, and ballistas--all of which is aimed toward the sea. The only way to get from the canal district to the old city is through the canal gate. Due to the natural defense of the escarpment, as well as the other defenses of the city, Mourktar is all but impossible to take from the sea.
There are two areas of primary interest in the Old City. The first is the Citadel of the Black Lord's Cloak, the seat of the largest and most powerful temple of Bane in the Realms. The Citadel sustained only minor damage during the events of the Spellplague and has been standing now for centuries. The second is the Onyx Spire, which functions as both a wizard's college, as well as a massive lighthouse for the city. The Onyx Mask's, founded by renegade Red Wizards fleeing the take over of Thay, pledged themselves to Bane in exchange for safety, and as a result, they control the tower and arcane magic use within the city.
The third city layer, separated by yet another escarpment--this one only 25-feet high--separates the old city from the new city. The new city was constructed after the Spellplague, and serves as the central hub through which traffic passes to and from Threskel into the city itself. It is the only land entry point, as the entire city is surrounded by a 30-foot wall. The primary gate leading into the city, known as the Black Lord's Gate, leads travelers onto the market street. Traveling down market street, one soon finds the Old Gate, which leads to the old city. Of interest here is the Black Lord's Emporium, a shop that sells confiscated weapons and goods taken from criminals and other ne'er-do-wells, in addition to buying and selling exotic items of all sorts. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2017 : 00:22:42
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Well, it doesn't really present a problem at all - the rest of BRJ's sketch never actually made it into canon, which makes it technically 'fanon' (or psuedo-canon if you prefer), and we can ignore those particular inconsistencies. No need to give ourselves headaches over 'might have beens'.
Not trying to be a jerk or anything, but the rule is that officially published FR material (in any medium) is canon. What Ed says is also canon, UNLESS over-written by something published. What other official designers say/think is psuedo-canonical, which means we can take it as canon (if we want to), unless it is over-written by something published... which is the case here.
Of course, then there is the new 4e "I don't give a crap" rule, which means you can just ignore anything you want, and write whatever you want.. which is why a lot of people now think the entire concept of 'canon' no longer even exists in FR. Whats the point of having canon, when the next group of writers can change it all? Its how most 'shared worlds' eventually slide into the sewer.
Now, all that aside, once again I'd go with my "use the canon to fix the canon" approach. And if you are creative enough, you can even take inconsistencies and spin them into something pretty damn cool. Is the only problem Mourktar? I like Aldrick's suggestion above. Massive tidal waves destroyed a good part of the city, and the rest was left submerged for a time (as waters continued to rush into the Alamber), but eventually the waters receded back to more normally levels, and some parts of the city - parts on higher ground - were resettled, and newer areas were built further away from the original coast. So parts are brand new, parts are old and refurbished, and some parts are still underwater - sounds like a pretty cool adventuring locale to me.
And I picture the city to be something akin to how Marsember looks, but with perhaps smaller 'islands' (where the Old City survived).
Actually, the more I think on it, the more I like the idea that some areas "slid" as things transferred. However, in their "sliding" perhaps they also copied, and maybe didn't "copy" so well. So, like half the city remained and half was ruined.... and it ended up 300 miles westward or eastward of where it was previously on Toril. If we take this "rule", it can explain Mourktar still being around but being more westward. We can also explain Skuld being eastward of where it should Maybe Cimbar didn't actually have the coast rise near it... maybe it "slid" away from the coast and left behind a pile of ruins (while it copied to Abeir).... and with all the people either gone or dead, no one could really figure out the truth in the madness following the spellplague.
You know, to a degree, it could be ALMOST like the Citadel of the Purple Emperor was transferred to where Skuld, the City of Shadows, was and there were these ripples of reality changing that blasted out heavily impacting the areas near it. Wonder if the Celestial Nadir with its extradimensional space..... hmmmm, not completing that sentence until I think more.
I think using something like moving the Palace of the Purple Emperor could serve as a good explanation for why this region is so messed up. I mean, if you look at other areas that transferred, they seemed to transfer "cleanly." However, this region is a huge mess. One way to explain that is to say that the Palace of the Purple Emperor screwed up the magics of this region.
So, we could claim, that the land down here became extremely mutable. Some of it shifted wildly, while huge chunks from Abeir appeared randomly in the air, crashing down to the earth. The largest continuous transfer was the land that would eventually become Tymanther.
So, imagine it from the perspective of someone living in a city. Randomly parts of the city begin disappearing, some sections the size of entire blocks, in some cases just a building, and in some cases just parts of buildings. People are transferred and swapped. In some cases only "parts" of people transfer (with the obvious consequences).
I would, if at all possible, attempt to avoid copying. If a particular building of importance exists on both sides, then we should just assume that it was rebuilt on one side or another. If it was ruined on both sides, then it is a partial transfer.
Something like that keeps it simple and helps us avoid headaches down the road. |
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Post-Sundering Old Empires... and the God-kings.
