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 (Second Attempt) How should the canon be handled?
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2017 :  05:43:07  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Adhriva

To get back to the purpose of the thread, how many people in the community will we require to sign off on something before an article becomes "valid"?


I am unsure if we are looking for an exact number of people. The way I envisioned it was that a poll would remain open for a period of time and once that window closed the issue would be considered settled one way or another. How long it would remain open is something we have to discuss and debate amongst ourselves, and then ultimately vote on and decide. The way that I have done these polls is that I consider them active for at least a week, and after one week I consider the matter settled and then we move on to something else.

For most of our voting so far the issue has been lopsided and decisive in one direction or another, and the outcome was pretty clear from the beginning. It was quickly established that the community should come together for some group project to produce a non-WotC canon for the Realms. It was quickly established that we should use a Wiki to do it. It was only the last poll that was contentious, and it was basically neck and neck from the beginning and ended with a tie. The outcome of this poll already seems like a foregone conclusion, as everyone has voted in favor of it except one person who has declared themselves undecided. It is very unlikely over the course of the next week that the outcome changes since it is so lopsided.

So, generally speaking, my view is that we do not need everyone to vote, we just need to leave a poll open long enough to get a decent sampling of people. Because, after all--using this poll as an example--even if someone shows up two weeks later and votes against it, their vote will not change the outcome, and by that point more people will have also showed up to vote in favor of it as well.

With this line of thinking, I am contemplating putting forward a rule to be voted on something like, 'All votes on Candlekanon articles shall remain open for two weeks, and be closed if it achieves two-thirds of votes in favor. If the poll cannot gain two-thirds support in two weeks time, it shall remain open for one month. At the end of the month the majority vote shall decide.'

Something like that seems reasonable and fair. However, once again, this is something that we would have to discuss. We would have a policies page just like the FRWiki: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Policies

All of the policies that we ultimately have to decide will go there.

quote:
Originally posted by Adhriva

And to take that thought a bit further, how will we mark it? A thread here on Candlekeep, something on the page itself, or a different way entirely?


I believe it will be marked in two ways. The first is the category that it will be placed in on the CKWiki. Everything in the Candlekanon will have its own special category on the Wiki. However, there will also be a banner at the top of each article marking it as Candlekanon. As an example of what the banner will look similar too, here is another example of the FRWiki and it's featured articles banner: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Eilistraee
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2017 :  21:59:49  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A week sounds good. Most folks check in here at least that often. Perhaps make it longer, just at first.
The only thing I worry about is people using multiple accounts to force their stuff into canon, or having friends register accounts just so they can vote for them. I suppose the mods could spot that sort of activity, if they were so inclined.

How about letting people vote later, on the Wiki itself? Is that possible? Like a 'thumbs up' (or down), that way, in time, a larger group of people can get to see ALL the articles and decide if it should be CandleKanon or not.

And at first, the activity is going to be LOW, so we won't really be getting large vote counts. Hopefully, if this thing takes off, we will be seeing more folks participate and voting, which will give us a MUCh better (accurate) 'slice' of the demographic opinion. People here may accidentally (subconsciously) be 'playing favorites', so thats why I'd want the vote to eventually go out to a broader audience (not that voting always works either, especially on an internet full of trolls).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 23 Jul 2017 22:01:33
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 23 Jul 2017 :  22:33:43  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

And at first, the activity is going to be LOW, so we won't really be getting large vote counts. Hopefully, if this thing takes off, we will be seeing more folks participate and voting, which will give us a MUCh better (accurate) 'slice' of the demographic opinion.


That is my concern as well if we count the number of votes. There can also be a high degree of variance between polls. For example, the first poll I posted very quickly got over 40 votes. However, the subsequent polls got just over twenty each. This one will also likely get just over twenty once a week has passed.

A Wiki, just like Candlekeep, ebbs and flows with activity. There are some times when there is a lot of activity, and there are other times when there is very low activity. By setting a standard of putting stuff up for a vote every two weeks or so, then that should give everyone who has an active interest in the canon an opportunity to "check-in", look over proposed Candlekanon articles, and vote.

It's also one of the reasons I think we should have something like a 2/3rds rule. If you can persuade 75% of the voters within the first two weeks, then it is unlikely subsequent voters will change the outcome. If things are more evenly divided extending the voting time by a week or so allows more people to participate.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

The only thing I worry about is people using multiple accounts to force their stuff into canon, or having friends register accounts just so they can vote for them. I suppose the mods could spot that sort of activity, if they were so inclined.

How about letting people vote later, on the Wiki itself? Is that possible?


It is possible for the Wiki to host a poll, however, I do not think it takes into account unique individuals. (I do not think polling at Candlekeep does either.) One way to fix this is to have a "voice" poll. In other words, have a thread posted here, and link to it at the top of the article. In our policies we would outline who gets to vote. Maybe something like: You must have at least 25 posts on Candlekeep, have participated in the editorial process of at least 3 Candlekanon articles, or submitted one Candlekanon article to be reviewed and edited. Any one of these is acceptable to be considered an eligible voter.

Then on the forums here, each person would simply post under the original post something like this:

"Aye, AldrickTanith on the CKWiki."

or

"Nay, AldrickTanith on the CKWiki."

or

"Undecided / Abstain, AldrickTanith on the CKWiki."

This means we will all know exactly who is voting, and everything is 100% transparent. The downside is that votes are public and people seeing how others voted could create some hostility. The reverse of that is if people are also participating in the editorial process--which everyone should--the opinions of people will already be well known.

Edited by - Aldrick on 23 Jul 2017 22:35:52
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 24 Jul 2017 :  01:00:03  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmmmm... I like it except for the 'total transparency' thing, but I don't see how we'd get around that. Unless...

There is a 'private' area here on the forums, and it could be used (Mods willing) to host the votes. The only problem with that is I don't know if they can separate it from the original project (and participants) who were involved. On the other hand, I think that thing is as dead as a doornail at this point. The mods would have to switch certain accounts 'ON' for that forum (or create a brand new one for voting, but then Alaundo would have to approve all that). That way, we know that only project-participants are voting.

But then... we will be back to square one, and we won't be able to expand the voting base. Maybe just do that (once again, mods willing) for the first few months, until we have an actual data-base and following? At that point, hopefully, no one person will be able to skew the votes.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 24 Jul 2017 01:35:13
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Adhriva
Learned Scribe

USA
147 Posts

Posted - 24 Jul 2017 :  01:20:25  Show Profile  Visit Adhriva's Homepage Send Adhriva a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Personally, I like the idea of voice voting and the transparency it brings. Namely for the sake that reasons, feedback, and partial votes can happen and be discussed. This can be especially important with larger projects and submissions where elements w, x, and y are great but z may need to be changed before it is accepted.

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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2708 Posts

Posted - 24 Jul 2017 :  01:42:12  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In the hopes of getting a larger member turn-out, I think we should make some sort of announcement about the group (once we figure all this stuff out), and give people a chance to join before we actually start. I don't know the specific timeline for that, but maybe a few weeks. That way, people who want to contribute but aren't on as often will have a chance to see it.

If we start with only a few people, it might unintentionally turn others away, because we've already started, and they may have wanted to contribute to a certain element, but now feel they can't.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 24 Jul 2017 :  01:44:30  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Maybe use the Candlekeep FB page for that?

I was going to say we should create a new one for the CandleKanon, but why? We'd already have a base to start from with the existing page. And votes (polls) CAN be done with FB.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 24 Jul 2017 01:44:49
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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 24 Jul 2017 :  02:03:30  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I totally forgot about that. I think I joined it, but never received notifications for it. I'm on the Forgotten Realms Archives FB page (a huge FB hub for FR fans), but I hardly ever go to the Candlekeep one. I went to it to see, and it says I had joined, but I hadn't been getting any notifications (so I changed the settings lol).

We could use that, if enough people are on it.

Sweet water and light laughter

Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 24 Jul 2017 02:06:22
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Adhriva
Learned Scribe

USA
147 Posts

Posted - 25 Jul 2017 :  17:52:20  Show Profile  Visit Adhriva's Homepage Send Adhriva a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The facebook group would work for the most part but I do have a few concerns. The group is small and sees little use. We ideally want to make this project accessible and a solid reference for the wider community, not just a niche. It is also easier to find the relative scrolls for any specific addition to add late votes - something a facebook group would make difficult. Of greater concern is that it could divorce the project further from this site and board, which is good for both promoting the resource and keeping the elements of the project condense for easy navigation. As such, I still am leaning to using voice voting on here.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 25 Jul 2017 :  18:50:38  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The way I see it, using the FB page would be a great way to 'boost the signal' of both - the project AND the page.

Once the project gets underway, the page's activity should increase exponentially. FB will give us the exposure we need for the project, and the project will make the page far more active. Its a win-win, IMO.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 25 Jul 2017 18:50:55
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
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Posted - 25 Jul 2017 :  19:12:06  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
We could make the announcement here that we will be using the FB page (with the appropriate links).

Sweet water and light laughter
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Sylrae
Learned Scribe

Canada
313 Posts

Posted - 28 Jul 2017 :  12:43:30  Show Profile Send Sylrae a Private Message  Reply with Quote
To be clear, is this basically about making a new forgotten realms wiki, with added candle keep written lore and gaps filled in?

I'm hearing a lot of talk of what to include or exclude, and how to approach things, but lack the context of just what a candleKanon would actually be.

Is it an all-in-one campaign guide in wiki form, that will explain all the stuff from all previous sources?

What exactly are you proposing making?

One thing I think would make a song source fat more useful to me, is if, when you're posting lore from any given edition, that the lore be color coded to denote where it came from.

I can't even count the number of times before 5e where when I went to the fr wiki I had to roll everything back to before the 4e frcg to get setting info that had anything to do with what I was running.

Including everything is fine, but mark it clearly so we can clearly separate out the stuff we don't want to be forced to use.

I don't use any of the spellplague or post-spellplague stuff. Between the widespread destruction, and the time skip, they destroyed the majority of what I actually enjoyed in the realms that was around in "current day" and haven't provided any interesting new content to replace what was lost and hold my interest.

But then, I liked the realms because it was filled with interesting content, and now it's not filled with anything, it's vague and ill-defined, even if they have back pedaled on some of the world shattering retcons ; so I find myself still sticking to 1375-1380 or going full arcane age or earlier and relying on Phasai/snowblood's work to fill in the details.

Sylrae's Forgotten Realms Fan-Lore Index, with public commenting access to make for easier improvement (WIP)

Edited by - Sylrae on 28 Jul 2017 12:59:10
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2441 Posts

Posted - 28 Jul 2017 :  15:33:06  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As I understand it, the CandleKanon project has three main objetives:

1. Create a current canon for the Realms (with current, as something that happens after 1491), as WotC isn't doing it anymore.

2 Filling up the gaps of the so-called "lost century" (1385-1478).

3. Try to logically explain stuff that doesn't make sense in the canon.

I don't know if there are more objetives than that. In words of Markustay, we want to make "modular stuff", so yes, is what you said: we will not force people to use all that we will produce.

As for include all canonical stuff, is because the potential that people like me (who started to play in the Realms in 4e or 5e) will be interested in the project, but they know the history of the Realms as is currently canon (so, they don't know about the stuff of the Grey Box and other sources), so they will not be confused because "hey, this candlecanon says that the Spellplague don't happened, but this official source says it happened... WTH is going on here?"

Because of the that, even the modular stuff need certain guidelines to follow (so, certain events to happen and stuff).

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 28 Jul 2017 15:47:00
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2441 Posts

Posted - 28 Jul 2017 :  15:45:59  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Sylrae

I can't even count the number of times before 5e where when I went to the fr wiki I had to roll everything back to before the 4e frcg to get setting info that had anything to do with what I was running.

Including everything is fine, but mark it clearly so we can clearly separate out the stuff we don't want to be forced to use.


Are you talking about the Forgotten Realms Wiki? Well, that is our job there. To be faithful to canon, like it or not. But you're right about the sources stuff. I've proposed a solution (using the same kind of floating reference tags they use in the Dragon Age Wiki). I would do it myself if I was more proficient in Wiki code.

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 28 Jul 2017 15:46:22
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 28 Jul 2017 :  16:15:54  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

In the hopes of getting a larger member turn-out, I think we should make some sort of announcement about the group (once we figure all this stuff out), and give people a chance to join before we actually start. I don't know the specific timeline for that, but maybe a few weeks. That way, people who want to contribute but aren't on as often will have a chance to see it.

If we start with only a few people, it might unintentionally turn others away, because we've already started, and they may have wanted to contribute to a certain element, but now feel they can't.



There's also the saying about too many cooks in the kitchen. Already, in these other threads, we're running about with a lot of ideas. I had already started a bunch of concepts, so I'm trying to relay what I've kind of thought through in what are hopefully manageable bite size chunks. I'm then letting those ideas sink in and seeing what kind of feedback comes back (some of which is highly interesting to me... me and Markustay just discussing architecture of Pelevari is really fun to me right now... and he may want to go a totally different path from me on the use of Pelevari... but the core idea of "what was this city like" and "who built it and who were their allies" and "when did things happen with it" helps us all if we intend to improve upon the area).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Sylrae
Learned Scribe

Canada
313 Posts

Posted - 28 Jul 2017 :  17:59:18  Show Profile Send Sylrae a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Are you talking about the Forgotten Realms Wiki? Well, that is our job there. To be faithful to canon, like it or not.



Oh. I'm aware that's how you see it. That the sites true purpose is to be faithful to current canon, with no regard for what was previously canon, no consideration for how current canon's reconsider maybe controversial. Not as a general reference tool for all Canon realmslore for users. Being useful for FR fans as a reference source for running games is a secondary concern for you guys.

That's why for nearly a decade (until 5e undid a bunch of the retcons and what was currently canon became vague enough that you started including both sets of info on pages), the only way to use the wiki for me was for me to go into each page's history and go back to the last post before September 2008.

I'm asking that whatever format this new Canon reference takes, that it puts its usability as a reference source first, visually delineates what edition any given realms lore comes from, and includes all of it, and visually highlights the retcons vs previous contradicted canon.

As an example, 1e realmslore might be in front of a grey background, 2e on a blue background, 3e on a green background, 4e on a purple background, and 5e on a brown background. Any time there is a contradiction, both sets of information are listed along with their edition source in front of a red background.

New stuff is still built on top of the current Canon, but if a bunch of the retcons reduce usability for the user, this approach means you haven't make it so much work to find relevant material that they simply have no use for the project.

Sylrae's Forgotten Realms Fan-Lore Index, with public commenting access to make for easier improvement (WIP)

Edited by - Sylrae on 28 Jul 2017 18:43:29
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 28 Jul 2017 :  18:25:54  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
While I agree on the usefulness of the FR Wiki (I've had my own share of problems, looking for a specific piece of info, and all I could get was a 'whats there now' entry, which doesn't serve my purposes 90% of the time), I am also, strangely enough, one of the staunchest supporters of 'ALL FR canon IS canon', no matter when anyone sets their games. This is because the only way a project of this scope can be successful is if it has 100% inclusivity - "no one gets left behind".

Besides, half the fun s going to be smoothing all those rough edges.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

In the hopes of getting a larger member turn-out, I think we should make some sort of announcement about the group (once we figure all this stuff out), and give people a chance to join before we actually start. I don't know the specific timeline for that, but maybe a few weeks. That way, people who want to contribute but aren't on as often will have a chance to see it.

If we start with only a few people, it might unintentionally turn others away, because we've already started, and they may have wanted to contribute to a certain element, but now feel they can't.



There's also the saying about too many cooks in the kitchen. Already, in these other threads, we're running about with a lot of ideas. I had already started a bunch of concepts, so I'm trying to relay what I've kind of thought through in what are hopefully manageable bite size chunks. I'm then letting those ideas sink in and seeing what kind of feedback comes back (some of which is highly interesting to me... me and Markustay just discussing architecture of Pelevari is really fun to me right now... and he may want to go a totally different path from me on the use of Pelevari... but the core idea of "what was this city like" and "who built it and who were their allies" and "when did things happen with it" helps us all if we intend to improve upon the area).
When it comes to the Old Empires, I leave that to others. Its certainly not one of my personal 'areas of interest' (except in how parts of it - like Murghôm - interact with the Taan, which IS a region I have major interest in). I am only discussing it because of the geographic problems. I'll go along with whatever the consensus is. I just like to toss ideas around for others to grab, or ignore.

Also, because I was in the construction business most of my life, I have a fairly unique understanding of how structures 'work', and how they interact with the terrain they are on. I say 'unique' because I was the guy that got called in when the engineers were scratching their heads. I don't except the word 'impossible', ever. LOL

So when I look at something like Pelevaran, its not so much of 'problem' to me, as it is a work of art waiting to be born. You take the so-called problems and turn them into design elements. Thats how I am seeing it all. Thats why I am interested in Pelevaran. As for how it all began, and whats there now, you guys can figure all that out. I only 'blame the dwarves' because it does appear to be a 'back door' into their realm, and I just can't see that slipping past them.

People may have noticed I 'switch sides' a lot during discussions. That's not me being wishy-washy, or being 'a troll'; thats just me playing Devil's Advocate. I want to punch-holes in any theories so others can patch them before they 'go public'. If your lore can't withstand a battery of questions, than it hasn't been well-conceived, IMHO. I also greatly appreciate it when others do the same for me - I often ask, "why can't {something} be {something else}?" The last thing I want to do is publish an article somewhere and find it has a major continuity gaff in it.

95% of the fanon I come up with is generated by me working on maps. They 'speak to me'. I see a river making a weird turn, I have to know why it did that. Sometimes I can find a canon answer (I just yesterday discovered a 'long lost' set of named cliffs!), but other times it makes no sense, so I feel impelled to provide an answer. the same goes for cultures and migrations of ethnic groups - people move for a reason. I want to know WHY. Thats the foundation of my approach to EVERYTHING FR - I want to look at the latest map, and know precisely why it looks the way it does (be it demographics, flora and fauna, terrain, settlements, etc, etc). The map is just the destination - I want to know about the journey.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 28 Jul 2017 18:43:36
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Sylrae
Learned Scribe

Canada
313 Posts

Posted - 28 Jul 2017 :  18:42:29  Show Profile Send Sylrae a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm fine with including *everything*. I get that some people *like* spellplague. However, the wiki tends to exclude and be of limited use for people looking for any older realms lore due to its focus on " what is it according to wotc *now*", and I'd like to point out that it's not only people who like the new stuff that you should be careful not to exclude.

Sylrae's Forgotten Realms Fan-Lore Index, with public commenting access to make for easier improvement (WIP)

Edited by - Sylrae on 28 Jul 2017 18:47:06
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 28 Jul 2017 :  18:44:33  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm hoping we can get some sort of color-coding going on, or perhaps some other way of separating the bits that some people may find... unsavory.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Sylrae
Learned Scribe

Canada
313 Posts

Posted - 28 Jul 2017 :  18:52:35  Show Profile Send Sylrae a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Color coded backgrounds, highhlighting retcons and contradictions but including all sets of information and identifying the sources, is essential if you really intend to "include everybody" and that's not just a platitude to get the people who like the lived-in realms more than the post spellplague and time jump vaguery to shut up while you proceed to toss them out the window. .

Sylrae's Forgotten Realms Fan-Lore Index, with public commenting access to make for easier improvement (WIP)
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 28 Jul 2017 :  20:59:38  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thats one way of putting it.

One last ting - CENTAURS.

I absolutely insist any CandleKanon project includes Centaur love. My favorite, classic 'monster' and it hardly gets any face-time in FR.

I'm thinking the Wemics become the dominant (unsettled lands) creatures in the Shaar, and having them 'gone' from the Shining Plains. I realize the city of Nathlekh is in the vicinity, but one of the few places the centaurs have major history is right there, in the Shining Plains.

I am even leaning toward a 'returned' kingdom of centaurs over near Thay somewhere. Maybe stick them in one of those 'empty' kingdoms (The Great Dale or Thesk). The ones over in the Shining Plains (which became something called 'Nathlan' in 4e?) would be the traditional, high-fantasy types, but I'm thinking something a bit darker for the Unapproachable East ones - maybe an aggressive, armor-wearing, bronze-age culture. The Great Dale would probably make the better fit, and I wouldn't mind finally changing that overly-long name.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2441 Posts

Posted - 28 Jul 2017 :  21:20:02  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Sylrae

I'm fine with including *everything*. I get that some people *like* spellplague. However, the wiki tends to exclude and be of limited use for people looking for any older realms lore due to its focus on " what is it according to wotc *now*", and I'd like to point out that it's not only people who like the new stuff that you should be careful not to exclude.



The problem with the wiki is that while some articles are well done, others are outdated. I became part of the wiki for the same reason as yours: I find one article to be "incomplete", I happen to know about it, and I completed it. Then, I found more articles to be like that, and... well, I began to help the guys of the wiki. Believe, there is a lot of work to do in the wiki, despite the loads and loads of work the users that are there from before me already did it.

The problem is that my Realmslore is very limited to post-4e (that is the edition I have the material for), and the Old Empires (and I had to bought the books of that region to get certain proficiency in Old Empires Realmslore).

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...
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Adhriva
Learned Scribe

USA
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Posted - 28 Jul 2017 :  21:30:47  Show Profile  Visit Adhriva's Homepage Send Adhriva a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm not sure a level of detail by color coding editions is needed or even prudent. It's a fanon wiki, not a canon wiki - the difference is that the majority of its content will be fan created material that ties-in to existing sources and those canon resources are also more likely to be pointing to the FRwiki instead of copied and sorted.

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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe

300 Posts

Posted - 28 Jul 2017 :  21:43:59  Show Profile Send Cyrinishad a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I voted "Yes" on this... I support a consensus around 1500 DR Shieldmeet as the timeline point. However, I think we should always be able to find some way to integrate official lore from future WotC publications into the Candlekanon project.

To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates

Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss
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Sylrae
Learned Scribe

Canada
313 Posts

Posted - 28 Jul 2017 :  21:46:21  Show Profile Send Sylrae a Private Message  Reply with Quote
We've already outlined how in many instances the fr wiki is not helpful or useful to people as a reference source, and in many instances it seems to be lacking deliberately, by design, because they cut the older or retconned content and only show the new stuff that is not what the user is looking for. And where that new stuff is messing with older realmslore isn't even marked, so if you're not using the retcons, your only options are to ignore it as a resource and use the old books, or to treat it as it died after a given point (which for me was September 2008).

The project as proposed seemed to be for managing an fr Canon in its entirety, and that sounds like it will need to be a single unified source.

If it does just link to fr wiki everywhere, that will drastically reduce its relevance to me.

If it's just for posting homebrew realmslore, what's the benefit of it over the existing options such as dms guild?

A complete realmcyclopedia that's useful to all realms fans as a reference source is what we're lacking. We already have places to post homebrew.

Sylrae's Forgotten Realms Fan-Lore Index, with public commenting access to make for easier improvement (WIP)

Edited by - Sylrae on 28 Jul 2017 21:53:43
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader

Colombia
2441 Posts

Posted - 28 Jul 2017 :  23:01:22  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Sylrae

If it's just for posting homebrew realmslore, what's the benefit of it over the existing options such as dms guild?


That there will be a consensus to form a unified, comprehensible canon. Not just some homebrew about Waterdeep, that contradicts this other homebrew about Waterdeep.

As for the enciclopedia, that one is the FR Wiki. In my articles, I recognize those retcons (when they are retcons, and not just evolved changes). For instance, this article about Astilabor, where I point out her inconsistent power levels between editions. There are many articles with those clarifications as well. But as I said before, most of the wiki is outdated/incomplete, and not all the articles follow the edition guidelines of the wiki (one of those rules is to document every version of a given information, and to point out retcons and changes).

Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world...
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2708 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2017 :  00:00:15  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree on the color coding, or something along those lines. We can point out conflicting lore from edition to edition, and, in some, if not all instances, find a way to "blend them" together.

Btw, I am out of town for the next few days, and so time and internet access are limited, so I may not be very active, but I was able to hop on for a little while.

So, how do we determine who works on what? If we're "breaking it up" into smaller chunks, what if several people want to work on the same thing?

Sweet water and light laughter
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2017 :  01:22:21  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Sylrae

We've already outlined how in many instances the fr wiki is not helpful or useful to people as a reference source, and in many instances it seems to be lacking deliberately, by design, because they cut the older or retconned content and only show the new stuff that is not what the user is looking for. And where that new stuff is messing with older realmslore isn't even marked, so if you're not using the retcons, your only options are to ignore it as a resource and use the old books, or to treat it as it died after a given point (which for me was September 2008).


The FR Wiki, like all Wiki's, can be edited by anyone. Rather than dividing up lore by edition, I think it makes more sense to divide things up by the various ages in Realms history.

- Days of Thunder (-35000 DR to -30000 DR)
- Dawn Ages (-30000 DR to -24000 DR
- First Flowering (-24000 DR to -12000 DR)
- Crown Wars (-12000 DR to -9000 DR)
- Founding Time (-9000 DR to -3000 DR)
- Age of Humanity (-3000 DR to 1357 DR)
- Era of Upheaval (1358 DR to 1488 DR)
- Present Age (1489 DR to Present Day)

This is far more useful to us rather than dividing up things by edition. It also makes it easier for us to spot lore gaps and continuity problems. If attempted to divide things up by edition we run into the problem of historical stuff being added in later editions. (For example, information about Netheril being revealed in 3rd Edition, but separated from the information about Netheril known in 2nd Edition, which is in turn separated from the stuff known in 1st Edition--to say nothing about anything revealed in 4th or 5th edition.)

When dealing with retcons, handle it the same way the Cosmology (the largest retcon of the setting) was handled: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Cosmology

This makes the information being shared useful to everyone who views the Wiki, regardless of the era or edition that they choose to play in. It also makes it useful to the Candlekanon, because it gives us the opportunity to go in and fill in holes and unexplained problems with the lore.

quote:
Originally posted by Sylrae

The project as proposed seemed to be for managing an fr Canon in its entirety, and that sounds like it will need to be a single unified source.


The FRWiki exists to manage the FR Canon in its entirety and to be a single unified source of canon. There may be duplicated material on the Candlekanon, but that is because it would also include non-canon material. So, for example, there is no reason for the Candlekanon to have a page explaining the World Tree cosmology. We may have a page discussing the various "interpretation" of the cosmology, but the central focus of the cosmology for the Candlekanon will be the one that is accepted and put forward by the community. That will be the recognized cosmology for the Candlekanon, and if someone is interested in say, the World Tree, they can read about that on the FR Wiki.

Where we are duplicating information it is where we are adding additional lore. So, for example, we might also have a page on Raedra Obarskyr, it may also duplicate all of the information on the FRWiki, but it would exist on the Candlekanon because we are making adding non-WotC canon material about the character and the setting.

So, there is a really bright dividing line between the two Wikis. One focuses on Candlekanon--a community canon--and the other focuses on WotC canon.

Ideally, one day, we will reach a point where the canon Realms will be 100% on the FRWiki, making everything easy to find and navigate. This also makes the work on the Candlekanon easier, because it greatly reduces research time.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2017 :  02:44:07  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Thats one way of putting it.

One last ting - CENTAURS.

I absolutely insist any CandleKanon project includes Centaur love. My favorite, classic 'monster' and it hardly gets any face-time in FR.

I'm thinking the Wemics become the dominant (unsettled lands) creatures in the Shaar, and having them 'gone' from the Shining Plains. I realize the city of Nathlekh is in the vicinity, but one of the few places the centaurs have major history is right there, in the Shining Plains.

I am even leaning toward a 'returned' kingdom of centaurs over near Thay somewhere. Maybe stick them in one of those 'empty' kingdoms (The Great Dale or Thesk). The ones over in the Shining Plains (which became something called 'Nathlan' in 4e?) would be the traditional, high-fantasy types, but I'm thinking something a bit darker for the Unapproachable East ones - maybe an aggressive, armor-wearing, bronze-age culture. The Great Dale would probably make the better fit, and I wouldn't mind finally changing that overly-long name.






Actually what if the wemics own the western shaar and the centaurs are prominent in the eastern shaar and also in the hordelands (I've never understood why there weren't more centaurs in the hordelands). With the possible renewal caused by the sundering on the "shaar desolation" (because we don't truly know the extent of the results of the filling in of the underchasm... but I'd prefer that the western shaar get renewed... we have enough deserts). The wemics might actually return to the Shaar from the shining plains when they hear that their homeland is restored... and the wemics and elves may end up in a fight for the restored territory.

That being said, over in Katashaka I'm having enough cat folk stuff with wemics, tauric versions of other great cats, lamias, lion cat humanoids, rakasta-like cat folk, tabaxi, paka, pumaji (my version of the Ghirrash that are from the prime material), rakshasa, sphinxes, griffins and variant griffins with other cat/bird combos, weretigers, werepanthers, wereleopards, werejaguars, tressym, lammasu, and yes winged great cats, etc... so that if someone can't get enough cat culture I don't know what to do (that being said, its not all cats). Hell, I even named one of my tharchs "the Western Pridelands". I'm perfectly happy having the wemics in Faerun get underplayed and maybe having a much lesser population of them as a result of the shaar desolation.

In the area where I have Peleveran in fact, I really like the idea of having a horse culture to a degree as well. I'm having some of the Crintri actually have been hunting for horses in the Shaar when the spellplague happened. I'm having the Thayans having some of their centaur soldiers having bred large families as well. I'd also like for the transferred Chessentans to have developed better cavalry skills while in Abeir. I plan on having the people of Peleveran also having contact with the drow beneath said region as well, to make the Crintri population expand. When things return, I want to have it that the people of Peleveran have several goals in mind. The Crintri for instance want to take their homeland in Dambrath back. The red wizards want to plot against Tam. Some of the people may not like Tymanther because maybe they had problems with Tymanchebar. Some of them may not like Unther/Mulhorand as well. Some of them may see the Karanoks in control of Chessenta and it boils their blood that the stories they heard of nut bars in that town are now controlling "their homeland". Some may want to expand into the western shaar.

Oh, also along the lines of that stuff. I am having a small population of zebra-like centaurs in Katashaka. I'm also having the Thayans up in Anchorome having a significant centaur population as well (in the Tharchs of Esh Alakar and Balduran Bay) and these centaurs do NOT like the Poscadar Elves.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 29 Jul 2017 02:51:51
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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe

Australia
401 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2017 :  13:11:09  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I like the current outline of the project. Well, I would, seeing as it's everything I proposed . I don't have anything more to add, really.

In any case, the Candlekeep Wiki is already up and running, with three people laying out and working on their projects. I'll put some more of mine up whenever I get a solid chance. CKW-specific issues can start being discussed there in the Forum. I would recommend keeping discussion and voting at the wiki for easier reference and linking.

It took me a while to get back into this, then I heard the Forgotten Realms Wiki being badmouthed and came running. (Thanks Zeromaru and Aldrick for sticking up for it!)

quote:
Originally posted by Sylrae

Oh. I'm aware that's how you see it. That the sites true purpose is to be faithful to current canon, with no regard for what was previously canon, no consideration for how current canon's reconsider maybe controversial. Not as a general reference tool for all Canon realmslore for users. Being useful for FR fans as a reference source for running games is a secondary concern for you guys.


quote:
Originally posted by Sylrae

I'm fine with including *everything*. I get that some people *like* spellplague. However, the wiki tends to exclude and be of limited use for people looking for any older realms lore due to its focus on " what is it according to wotc *now*", and I'd like to point out that it's not only people who like the new stuff that you should be careful not to exclude.


Not at all true. Our mission has always been to document the entirety of the Realms in every edition. As our Canon policy details, the 1st-edition lore is just as valid as the 4th-editon and the 5th-edition lore. We don't play favourites with editions one way or the other. We seek to add it all, provides dates for context, and note any changes and discrepancies for the reader to choose what they like.

Unfortunately, went 4th edition came out, its fans did an orc-horde rush on the wiki, adding 4e lore and removing swathes of earlier content. I would regard this as mass vandalism. The regular editors at the time struggled to keep up. But that time has past, and our current editors are more on top of things, enforcing the edition-neutral view and maintaining content from all eras. It helps a lot that 5e's slow-release of the FR setting has made the influx of 5e lore a steady drip-feed rather than a flood.

By the way, if you know of an article where old lore was removed, tell us or tell me now, and we will fix it. It's all preserved in edit histories and can be restored.

And yes, in many old articles and undeveloped topics, particularly general guff, 4e lore is still prominent, but that's not indicative of what we want. It's undeveloped cruft we're waiting for people to put serious work on. Wikis are always incomplete. The articles developed in the last several years, such as those showcased on the Main Page, display the all-edition-friendly approach.

In fact, most of our current dedicated editors (and there's only about a dozen of us) are solidly into 1e, 2e, and 3e, and only two have a 4e and 5e focus (Zeromaru X's stirling work on Returned Abeir and dragonborn, for example) so I'm afraid we currently have a poor showing of 4e and 5e lore.

quote:
Originally posted by Sylrae

I'm asking that whatever format this new Canon reference takes, that it puts its usability as a reference source first, visually delineates what edition any given realms lore comes from, and includes all of it, and visually highlights the retcons vs previous contradicted canon.

As an example, 1e realmslore might be in front of a grey background, 2e on a blue background, 3e on a green background, 4e on a purple background, and 5e on a brown background. Any time there is a contradiction, both sets of information are listed along with their edition source in front of a red background.


Colour-coded text and/or backgrounds would be so excruciating ugly as to be unreadable. It wouldn't be whole paragraphs, but individual sentences and clauses cited to different sources. The eye would struggle to adapt to all the colour changes, and wiki links are already coloured. And what about lore repeated in multiple editions? Rainbows? It would be difficult to code as well, with every sentence and clause a separate template and edition marker. It would be hard to expect unfamiliar users to pick it up or remember the colour scheme.

If anyone's uncertain about a source for a statement, just click on the superscripted number following it. It will take you to the source in the References section. Click on the number there to go back.

Mouse-over pop-up reference details would be nice, if someone can work them out.

Otherwise, our current policy of simply dating all the lore and placing it in chronological order with sections to delineate differences is an effective one. Check out Wheloon, the Vast, and Llorkh (currently under development) for ways I've handled the 4th-edition time-jump. If you don't like a bit of information or an era, just ignore that part.

So come back and have another look at the Forgotten Realms Wiki. It covers the whole Realms and all campaign settings, in all editions, equally and fairly. It's one of the most high-quality and high-rated wikis around. If there's a problem with an article, don't complain about it on Candlekeep, but bring it up on the Talk page so it can be fixed. It only needs more people to come and work on it. The thing about wikis is people generally only work on what interests them, because it's a hobby, not a paid job. I realised that when I got involved: if there's something I want to see on the wiki, if I want to use it to provide background information for my campaigns and characters, I had to add it myself. Then it will be useful for everyone.

BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki
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