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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Feb 2017 : 13:21:42
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| I think we're getting somewhere, but I think it's significant that no one really knows straight away what kind of servitors neutral deities would get. Angels, archons, solars, guardinals, eladrin, devils, demons, yugoloths - all these things scream their alignment. I get modrons and inevitables for LN...kind of, I'm more of a "Nirvana" man than a "Mechanus" man, I'm not a huge fan of LN being entirely mechanical. True Neutral is where I have the most difficulty, as they're not going to be served by the good or the evil servitors. Rilmani is the best thing I can think of, but it just doesn't feel right for deities as diverse as Silvanus and Gond. Are there any cool neutral servitors out there that scream badass? |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2017 : 13:48:16
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| Who says neutral guys have to have their own. Couldn't they be served by both good and evil at times if need be? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2017 : 16:36:24
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Who says neutral guys have to have their own. Couldn't they be served by both good and evil at times if need be?
Thats my thinking as well.
There could be neutral outsiders (and are), but I would think 'Neutral' deities would just use the best agent for the job at hand. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2017 : 17:14:50
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
Corellon's Devout, that quote from the FR wiki is actually the 4e "any alignment" interpretation - you can tell by the fact they're talking about the Dawn War. 4e makes it even more complex by making archons native to the Elemental Chaos - unnecessarily complex.
This has to do with what they did with demons in 4e - demons became corrupted elementals (which is kind of cool in its own way, but goes against previous lore).
The sad thing about all that is that it appears they shoe-horned the CG's into the Maelstrom as well, to sort-of balance things out, but back when 4e was introduced, one of their main 'selling points' for the new edition was that they "eliminated unnecessary redundancy", and 'the need for balancing everything against its opposite' (hence the almost complete destruction of the former planer model). They were actually trying to sell the virtues of having things NOT balanced... and then balanced the f*** out of everything after they made their sweeping changes (so much so, in fact, that every class played pretty much the same).
On the other hand, I like the concepts of 'taint' (evil) and 'corruption' (chaos), and I would love to see those things better integrated into the rules/setting(s) and planer/cosmological model. In that regard, I think 4e had some rather interesting ideas, I just don't think they were up to the job of making them work (in regards to past lore, AND be consistent within itself).
For example, very large pockets of either (taint & corruption) can exist within the maelstrom (and elsewhere), and these pockets are what created a lot of the run-of-the-mill fiends. I like that. But I also like that the higher-ups all came from somewhere else (like the theory that the 'loths created the Tanar'ri, or the way that the the archdevils were 'fallen angels'). I also like how you can still keep one the coolest concepts from earlier editions (mostly 2e) - that when a region of the multiverse (however small or large) becomes 'too much' like a particular alignment, its start to 'slip' into the corresponding plane (or in the case of very strong or very large areas, become a 'new realm' within the universe, starting-out as a pocket plane and perhaps growing larger {and stronger} over time, may be even becoming full planes in their own right after eons).
All that works well within my 'lava lamp' model of all things cosmic (both the planes, and 'the gods'). Things break-apart, reform, and sometimes come back together, and sometimes merge with other stuff and create something new - its all very fluid. For example, its possible that all the layers of the Abyss started out as extremely large regions of corruption in the Maelstrom. Then, when the 'machine' that is the Great Wheel was built, it 'formalized' everything into a very lawful, set layout (which, when you apply all of my other theories, is really all just a matter of perception anyway). All those vast regions got shuffled into what is now the Abyss. The largest pieces of 'taint' became the Nine Hells, etc.
And WOW... I just got a picture in my head... the MOST controversial theory I've come up with regarding the nature of the multiverse. I think I may know why the Great Wheel was built - what its purpose is. I think I just stepped off a precipice and took 'grimdark' to a whole 'nother level. 
I have to check the Planescape sources regarding the factions - see if there is anything already like it. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Feb 2017 17:19:42 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2017 : 03:06:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
Corellon's Devout, that quote from the FR wiki is actually the 4e "any alignment" interpretation - you can tell by the fact they're talking about the Dawn War. 4e makes it even more complex by making archons native to the Elemental Chaos - unnecessarily complex.
This has to do with what they did with demons in 4e - demons became corrupted elementals (which is kind of cool in its own way, but goes against previous lore).
Hmmm, so Archons also went to the elemental chaos and demons were corrupted elementals.... that idea of tasked genies getting "stolen" and turned into servants of the gods that then pisses off the primordials and kicks off the dawn war between outer planar entities and inner planar entities actually sounds more and more viable. Makes me also wonder if the "separation" of the outer planes and inner planes didn't come about until AFTER the dawn war as lines were drawn in the multiverse's sand. This adds even more of an interesting nature when considered that some gods are prime material bound (or what the Mulhorandi would term "manifestations"). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2017 : 19:32:09
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| neutral and evil gods create outsiders unique to them, for example Jergal has jerul devils, Cyric black beasts of bedlam, Shar umbral glooms, Gargauth the vahgazu, Lolth yochlol (sp?) demons, Kelemvor something like the psychopomps from Pathfinder, Garagos windblades, Set minions of Set, Ilsensine eaters of knowledge, Tiamat abishai, and so on |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2017 : 21:02:33
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Even if some gods do not have their minions written already doesn't mean they do not have some. There is a lot of space for DM's to create them so they will be unique for their understanding of the god in question. You could either look in MM's for fitting creature/planar or you could make one from scratch. For chaotic gods you can even say that everyone of their minions are different only with common theme for the god.
Yochol's are originaly Ghaunadaur's imho. It seems he let her uses them as part of their deal. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2017 : 05:22:26
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The celestial and fiendish races probably have compacts with equivalent deities, but it's just as likely that deities have their own unique servitors, like the Heralds from Pathfinder.
Except Cyric, but that's because nobody likes him.
Offhand, you could import the psychopomps and reapers in as servitors unique to Myrkul and Kelemvor, or at least are favorably disposed to wards those deities, Talos favors destructive and evil proteans, Jergal is served by unique psychopomps and reapers, Velsharoon probably allows arcanoloths access to the libraries of his domain in exchange for their service, etc. |
Edited by - LordofBones on 18 Feb 2017 05:26:07 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2017 : 02:23:31
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I do agree that each god has their own form or servitors, and, depending on the deity, some servitors may look more "angelic" than others. I think servitors who retrieve souls and take them to whatever afterlife awaits them should resemble the domain of the deity they serve. This could mean that the evil gods have more "fiendish" looking servitors, but this doesn't have to be the case. For instance, I can see Cyric having "dark angels" (Fallen?).
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2017 : 03:18:09
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Resurrecting this thread briefly because I finally got my hands on Player's Guide to Faerun (I only recently learned it contained info on the planes, otherwise I would have gotten it sooner). I found this on the celestials of Arvandor:
"The celestial realms of Arvandor and the Gates of the Moon are the only twork planes where the elflike eladrins dwell in significant numbers. The eladrins of Arvandor are not servants of the elven pantheon, though they respect the elf deities and generally cooperate with them in everyday matters as well as urgent ones. But when the elf deities require powerful servants to travel to other planes, they usually call upon angels rather than eladrins, so all varieties of angels dwell there as well." (Pg 143).
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2017 : 17:19:05
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I'm extremely bust RW ATM, so I can't put a lot of thought into this {did I just hear a collective sigh f relief?} 
Here's the bare-bones version of a concept I've been rolling around inside my head for quite some time: 'Created Outsiders'* are made from Plane-stuff. In the first world, this didn't have much meaning, because I only picture three main divisions there (much like the Norse cosmology) - you had a flat 'Prime Material Plane' ("The World"), you have a place 'above' where gods chilled, and you had something 'beneath' (think of it like the grimy underbelly of the universe, where all the infrastructure is run, like in a RW city).
AFTER the Godwar (Dawn War, whatever) we have the Great Wheel, and the 'firmament' is divided among a whole bunch of planes. Now control of those planes matters, because now you can only get certain kinds of 'servitors' from certain places.
In the first world, as the need arose for certain kinds of 'servants', the world/plane spawned them automatically, in whatever numbers were needed (picture something like the gazilliion Jango Fetts from the Clone Wars). The planes still do this, but now you can only get ones that are appropriate to the plane you're on (so even if you are LG God in Hell, you aren't 'calling up' any angels). This is part of the 'home turf advantage' gods have.
As I said, this process is mostly automated, but a god CAN call forth a specialized servitor, and even have it be more powerful (things like archangels). These would be named, and have specific tasks, and most would be unique (or only in very small numbers assigned just to that one god, like Lolth's handmaidens). Through the natural process of the universe, all of these beings - like like mortals - can 'level', if given the opportunity to advance, so a relatively unknown angel or demon (or whatever) can become quite powerful over time. Asmodeus is THE prime example of this (although he most certainly started out unique to begin with).
I also picture this class of being having a very rough shape when formed naturally at low levels, like the Lemure of hell, or the basic elementals of the elemental planes. Something from the higher planes might be a bit 'prettier', like a ball of light and sparkles, but mostly, unformed. The higher the 'level' of the creature, the more defined t becomes, first becoming more like some of the known groups of outsiders (different types of fiends and celestials, etc), and eventually, if high enough, will develop features unique to them - all part of a natural process of the universe (and could have something to do with the emerging 'persona' of the being, as it develops self-will over time).
So basically, I picture this entire category of beings - created, not 'born' - as types of elementals associated with their alignments. Thus, genies would just be the unique, 'more refined' versions of elementals (the 'aristocracy' of the plane). Also, a being could go against its 'core essence' (starting alignment) eventually, but this is far more likely to happen in the case of 'born' outsiders (like Asmodeus' daughter Glaysa) than it would in ones that appeared fully formed out of the planestuff (and still extremely rare, if not unheard of). 'Born' beings automatically come with 'free will', even if they are predisposed to a certain alignment. So if you grow up in hell, you could become 'Little Nicky', but it would have had to be a very bizarre set of circumstances for your surroundings to not have had that much affect on you.
*I like the idea of calling this type 'Servitors', which would include all outsiders not 'born' in natural. mortal way in non-Prime Material planes. This would include all type of celestials and fiends, as well as things like elementals. the problem I have always had with the term 'outsider' is that it includes all the beings that actually live in the planes, like normal people. D&D made this mistake way back when - EVERYTHING in 'the planes' should have been DEAD, or 'created'. Anything 'born' in the planes should be a half-mortal, because 'created' beings should NOT be able to procreate in the normal fashion... but I suppose its too late to correct all that now. I guess Gygax & co. didn't want all the 'ickyness' of demons dragging off mortal women to hell to breed with. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Mar 2017 22:28:20 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2017 : 03:10:56
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In 5e Angels are discribed as being Lawful Good and that even Angels in service to Chaotic Good Gods are Lawful Good basically because even Chaotic deities need someone who knows how to take orders and follow them.
They're made of the Astral Essence of a God directly, which almost makes them mini angelic avatars of deities.
They can't follow any orders that are evil or chaotic which makes things hard for a Chaotic Good deity, but when you realize that no law is higher then that of an Angel's God/dess that introduces some flexibility to an Angel.
So the Angel can't break their word or disobey their God without falling, because that would be Chaotic, but they can disobey local mortal laws, although their nature will likely lead them to avoiding it where possible, because there God's word is the higher law and higher laws trump lower laws.
Like how the constitution of a nation trumps individual laws passed by legislatures, and can invalidate them, higher laws trump lower laws.
I think the hierarchy of laws for angels is this universal objective truths about law and good (which still leave a lot of grey areas), then their God's Word, then lesser mortal laws and individual acts of kindness.
But I think even a God's word has limits in how much they can twist and Angels Lawful Good Nature. A God can't demand an Angel mass murder innocence, destroying all mortal laws in a good kingdom causing chaos in the mortal realm, because the Angel can't follow evil or chaotic commands.
Also it directly says that Angels are divine, not just servants of the Divine, which makes sense if they are directly made from their God/dess's own essence. In that way dispite the somewhat Judeochristian look, actually makes them closer in nature lesser Hindu Gods in nature.They even call the weaker ones Devas.
Of course any major job that a Chaotic God needs done that is too Chaotic for a angel, a Empyrean Titan will do, Empyreans have far more free will then other types of Celestials, so instead of using angels which are usually pieces of themselves made a automas, they use their none God, but still Divine Children, Empyrean Titan Children.
Archons in some cases will also serve Lawful Good Gods as well (not mentioned in 5e yet), but Elderin will ally in some cases with a Chaotic Good Gods, but they usually don't serve them, too independant minded. Guardianals I'm not sure. Possibly.
As for evil Gods, many of them have special individual servants. Lloth has the Yochels, Ghaunder has his own slimy fiendish servants, I forget what they are called, ect...
Evil Servants of Deities tend to be more individual races, because the small handful of space devoted to celestials has serve a wide variety of gods, but because the servants of evil gods are stuff for PCs to fight, they is alot more space for variety.
Devils, Yugoloths, and even occasionally regular demons, can and are bribed or bullied into the service of various evil gods, but many evil Gods have special unique races in their service.
For a more universal servant of evil Gods, I'd use Succubi, completely free agent in 5e who are their own species of fiend now, who will serve pretty much any evil more powerful then themselves, including evil Gods, Devils, Yugoloths, Rakasha, Night Hags, and Fallen Angels who miss a divine connection, but wish to get revenge on the Good Gods that banished them from Paradises.
Nuetral Gods are where it gets tricky, Modrons don't serve gods, at least not normally. Slaadi are too Chaotic usually for none Slaad Lords to control.
I'll have to think on how services Neutral Gods. Maruts perhaps. Powerful mortal souls?
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2017 : 03:14:49
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| The Mulhorand Pantheon also traditionally had Divine Servitors, Mortals and Outsiders who we're turned into special celestial or fiendish servants of the Gods of the Mulhorandi Pantheon. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2017 : 03:22:48
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| Also Primdorials like Kossuth will likely use various Elementals as servants instead of "outsiders". |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2017 : 03:48:06
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| What 5e source did you read about the angels? If possible, I want t get it lol. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2017 : 06:19:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Nuetral Gods are where it gets tricky, Modrons don't serve gods, at least not normally. Slaadi are too Chaotic usually for none Slaad Lords to control.
I'll have to think on how services Neutral Gods. Maruts perhaps. Powerful mortal souls?
'The giants in gray' in Kara-Tur seem to fit that bill, although their precise nature is never revealed (they are more like 'The Watcher' from Marvel Comics).
I don't think a neutral deity would have 'armies' of servitors - maybe one or two personal 'lieutenant' types, and then they would 'contract' with whatever type of outsider they would need, depending on the situation (sometimes angels, sometimes demons, and probably elementals/genies a lot). They'd be more inclined to 'maintain the balance', and thus, whenever they become aware of imbalance, they would just notify the deities on the opposite end of the spectrum - they'd rarely need to act on their own. They're whole 'gig' is to keep watch over everything, and keep all sides in equilibrium, and do whatever it takes to achieve that. I would hazard to guess the 'Blood War' is their greatest masterpiece. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Mar 2017 20:01:09 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2017 : 13:20:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
Also Primdorials like Kossuth will likely use various Elementals as servants instead of "outsiders".
I see Kossuth having task genies and elemental myrmidons as the majority of his personal servants. Not to mention things like salamanders, efreeti, etc... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2017 : 12:49:35
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| I have found a neutral version of planar servant similar to angels and demons. They are from Planescape Monster Manual Appendix II and they are called Rilmani. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2017 : 23:23:22
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
What 5e source did you read about the angels? If possible, I want t get it lol.
The Monster Manuel under Angels, the part before they delve into specific types of angels. |
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Angels & divine servitors of FR gods
