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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Apr 2018 : 06:49:44
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Yes, similar ideas have been thrown around, but I had never considered to apply it to why they breed so infrequently. They may 'lessen' themselves with each progeny. Incrementally, and perhaps minutely each time, but if they bred like orcs or even humans, the 'dwindling' would happen extremely fast, and by now they may have devolved to the point of orcs themselves, had they not curtailed their own procreation habits.
It could be there was a time a single Fey/Eladrin could cast High magic, and then they started needing small groups, and then larger groups, etc. They have probably switched over to the Vancian methods (I assume those are the methods detailed in the Nether Scrolls) because their own brand of magic has become too difficult for them with each passing generation.
It could also be why (in the new MToF) that Corellon had to turn his back on them - he needed to sever that connection, before he himself dwindled (just a theory, mind you) - that was his divinity they were diluting.
EDIT:
And to take this a step further, why he had to do the 'Descent Curse' on the drow - he may have stripped them of his divinity, because he knew Lolth could hurt him just by having her followers 'over-breed' (spreading his divinity even thinner).
What if he instead switched his blood for Lolth's, so that she would feel the long-term effects? But she outsmarted him - by turning their society into a theocracy she offset the losses with worship? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Apr 2018 06:54:46 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2018 : 15:20:07
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| Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't one of the videos imply they (as in WotC) were getting rid of the "Descent Curse"? I may have to watch that video again, but it sounded like they were changing it, which I have mixed feelings about. I never really liked how the curse affected *all* drow, but I don't like them messing with previously established lore. Of course, it wouldn't be the first time LOL. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2018 : 01:23:08
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I don't think they ever said it didn't happen (in FR, specifically), but they tell a somewhat different story for generic D&D, which unfortunately these days does get applied directly to FR.
So its more like there is a different spin on what happened there, and they aren't even saying whether he cursed them or not... AFAIK. It appears they are just side-stepping the issue (in regards to FR). I still haven't gotten the book itself, which I plan to. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Apr 2018 01:30:16 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2018 : 01:45:09
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| I plan to get it, too. I have pre-ordered it. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2018 : 03:06:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I don't think they ever said it didn't happen (in FR, specifically), but they tell a somewhat different story for generic D&D, which unfortunately these days does get applied directly to FR.
So its more like there is a different spin on what happened there, and they aren't even saying whether he cursed them or not... AFAIK. It appears they are just side-stepping the issue (in regards to FR). I still haven't gotten the book itself, which I plan to.
They said nothing about the Realms, but they were pretty specific about why the elves--all of them--look like they do. There was no curse involved: as they rebelled against Corellon, they lost their connection to Arvandor, their divinity, and their shapechanging ability. Their new fixed form was their favorite one/the one that reflected them. When the drow kept following Lolth, they were already drow.
That sounds like a universal origin--the history of the drow in the Realms may remain unchanged, all you have to do is just changing how the dark elves appeared pre-descent. The elven nations drove them in the Underdark after the Descent anyway (that's true even in the current version of their history), and--honestly--looking at the 2e books, at Elaine's Evermeet novel, it seems to me that the appearance-changing curse was a 3e idea (a *bad* one, if you ask me). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 23 Apr 2018 03:06:39 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2018 : 08:01:43
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Well, I wasn't really talking about their 'look'.
Whether Corellon cursed them or Lolth blessed them, the Dark Elves went from getting sustenance from sunlight (as all elves did, as per 2e's CBoE), to sunlight being anathema to them. If you want to say it wasn't Corellon (which seems to be the way this newer lore is leaning), then we'd have to go with Lolth having given them a perk to replace their old partial dependence on sunlight (most likely replaced with Faerzress, as per old lore as well).
It wouldn't be a Darwinian evolution thing (mainly because they would have all died before even one generation had gone by), because Elves do NOT evolve the way humans do (in fact, we have no evidence anything but humans and naturally occurring animals do). Elves 'evolve' spontaneously, changing their form to suit their current needs. Once Corellon "pulled away from them" (as per the new lore), they were no longer able to do this (easily) on their own, but they COULD still do it with divine help (as they do when they become sea elves - that is due to a prayer to Sashelas). Thus, if they needed to adapt quickly to their new subterranean environment, and asked for Lolth's aid, it would have simply drove them even further into her arms. Basically, it would appear (to them) that the Seldarine and surface elves condemned them to death (because surely, they never expected the dark Elves to survive the way they did), and Lolth was their 'savior'.
Pretty asshat move on Corellon's part, in hindsight. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2018 : 13:35:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
[quote]It wouldn't be a Darwinian evolution thing (mainly because they would have all died before even one generation had gone by), because Elves do NOT evolve the way humans do (in fact, we have no evidence anything but humans and naturally occurring animals do). Elves 'evolve' spontaneously, changing their form to suit their current needs. Once Corellon "pulled away from them" (as per the new lore), they were no longer able to do this (easily) on their own, but they COULD still do it with divine help (as they do when they become sea elves - that is due to a prayer to Sashelas). Thus, if they needed to adapt quickly to their new subterranean environment, and asked for Lolth's aid, it would have simply drove them even further into her arms. Basically, it would appear (to them) that the Seldarine and surface elves condemned them to death (because surely, they never expected the dark Elves to survive the way they did), and Lolth was their 'savior'.
Pretty asshat move on Corellon's part, in hindsight.
That's essentially how things are now, tho. When, in the current version (old lore), a whole people--including those who didn't deserve it, or even the non-Ilythiiri--was banished and cursed, they saw the Seldarine condemning them to death alongside the combined forces of the remaining elven empires forcefully driving them underground.
Who had remained to offer the guidance back then? Lolth, Vhaeraun, Ghaunadaur, Kiaransalee. Eilistraee had just been dealt a blow that reduced her to near-irrelevance for millennia, so--as much as she tried to do something for the drow--she couldn't really make a difference back then. It has always been my point that Corellon pushed the drow into Lolth's arms, aside from (probably unintentionally) kicking his own daughter when she was at her lowest.
The new lore isn't in contradiction with the old one, as long as you assume that the drow have always been drow (like, apparently, it was in 2e). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 23 Apr 2018 13:39:23 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2018 : 21:27:06
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Well, I can still work with that, since there is a lot of (D&D) lore abut Dark Elves being 'Black' before FR's descent.
Extrapolating out of some of my Fey/Goblinoids (and Orcs) musings, which shoe-horns suspiciously well with the new spin on Elves ('they all used to be able to change into stuff'), I have it where the Dokalfar were the group that first turned away from Corellon, but they wewre more like anarchists, so no true 'unified group' at all. One of the main disputes was with aesthetics - some fey chose ugly forms and considered it an 'artform' (how much they can horrify others). The Seelie Fey (the ones that stayed true to the Fey Courts and Seldarine) frown upon this choice - they felt they were final arbiters on what should be considered 'art'. So Goblins (Urchins) and Hobgoblins (Dark Eladrin) left the rest, lead away by Gruumsh, Maglubiyet, etc.
This was the first split of many, and would have probably occurred pre-Dawn war.
Now, some elves who disagreed with the judgement of the main body of elves (and Seldarine) on judging other's concept of 'art' were also considered 'Dark Elves', but were still (at that time) considered part of the group that preferred traditional forms of beauty. So they agreed with the aesthetic of the other elves, but disagreed with them on principle ('freedom of expression'). At this time I think they - since the other elves had begun to refer to them as 'Dark' - started to outwardly appear as such, wearing 'Black face' as public display of their own disagreement of the ban on the Unseelie elves (Goblinoids), and their solidarity with their forlorn kin. This caused them to eventually become ostracized as well ("agree with EVERYTHING we say and do, or you must be an enemy!" Sound familiar?)
Right around this time, when tensions were building once again among the elves/Fey, the Dawn War broke-out, and literally, all hell broke loose. The attitude of "you need to agree with me COMPLETELY or I will brand you an enemy" attitude became almost universal, and not just among the elves. One group of dark Elves left for the Shadowfel (the Shadar-Kai), disgusted by what was going on (at that time, 'shadow' was considered more about balance - darkness that only exists because of the Light). Later, when Lolth and others turned on Corellon and the rest of the Seldarine, other groups left as well. The most prominent were the Dark Elves who wore 'faces of pure Black' - the Drow. They left to settle in the recesses of the wilderlands, in the remotest parts of Midgard (the original prime Material Plane). They took to living below the earth, in secret, in what became known as Aos Si ('Faery Mounds').
All beings and races were drawn into the war eventually, whether they wanted to or not. Corellons children - the elves - were the most volatile. On the one hand siding with the Dragons and Dwarves against the primordials, freeing them, and then turning on the dragons in the aftermath because they were being too destructive (as destructive as the elemental forces they were trying to fight against). At this point there was another split - while many stayed 'in the heavens' to fight the war with the Seldarine, an equally large group went to pursue the dragons, who had disappeared from the battlefield (these would be our later Green/Sylvan Elves - the more 'earthy' elves that became common among the worlds). Now, some legends say this group split off in disgust, as the Shadar-Kai did, while other stories say it was the leaders - the Eladrin themselves - they sent their 'lesser kindred' out to pursue the dragons and thwart them (this fixes the continuity between the 3e/4e version and the new 5e version). This occurred right at the end of the Dawn War, when the Lattice of Heaven was shattered (thus many of the dragons and Green Elves wound up in suspended animation, until the forming of the Crystals Spheres and worlds around them).
As for the Eldarin - because they had stayed true to the Seldarine and remained right up until the end, they were allowed to remain in the Feywild (which used to be the Wilderlands, and sometimes even called the 'Giant Wilds' - this region of the planes was 'liberated' from the primordials after the war). Thus, the Feywild would be their bridge directly to Arvandor, which they could go to whenever they chose (I picture Arvandor being half in Arborea, and half in The Feywild). At a later time - likely during the Godswar - Tintageer (in the feywild) was destroyed, and those Eladrin were forced to flee to Toril.
I still can't put together a more concise timeline, because I don't have MToF yet. On the surface, it appears the Elven history is one of people getting very disgusted with their leadership and leaving, wave after wave after wave. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Apr 2018 21:27:58 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2018 : 21:40:52
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| Do we know if MtoF mostly concerns elven (and their offshoots, like the shadar-kai) lore? I am getting the impression they go into elven history quite a bit, but at only 200-something pages, if they address other things, the section on elves might be rather brief. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2018 : 05:41:00
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According to all the videos, they get into quite a few other things.
For example, they also get into the illithid/gith/Tiamat backstory as well (which, while not as convoluted as the elven sub-races and Seldarine, still seems fairly involved and monolithic to the greater D&D mythos).
They also get into the Blood War. Its going to be like a combination of a Manual of the Planes and a Fiend Folio (MM for Outsiders). Thus, I am not expecting a lot of tiny details, just 'broad strokes'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Apr 2018 17:31:39 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2018 : 13:38:08
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Do we know if MtoF mostly concerns elven (and their offshoots, like the shadar-kai) lore? I am getting the impression they go into elven history quite a bit, but at only 200-something pages, if they address other things, the section on elves might be rather brief.
It's 256 pages, 6 chapters. One is dedicated to all things elven. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 25 Apr 2018 13:38:31 |
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Cosmology Theories
