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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Dec 2017 : 20:42:58
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| How does this account the fact that Auril fought on the side of the gods during the Dawn War? (Dragon 366) |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2017 : 02:49:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
How does this account the fact that Auril fought on the side of the gods during the Dawn War? (Dragon 366)
What in dragon 366? I just did a search for Auril and dawn war it showed nothing. You maybe typo the number?
Oh, and Auril was Aurilandur, an archfey known as the frost sprite queen, in dragon 376. I'll also note that Rellavar Danuvien is the frost sprite KING from dragon #236 (and a god of snow elves), and it specifically calls out Auril as his enemy. Guessing the divorce was not amicable and she took him to the cleaners |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2017 : 02:57:46
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
How does this account the fact that Auril fought on the side of the gods during the Dawn War? (Dragon 366)
What in dragon 366? I just did a search for Auril and dawn war it showed nothing. You maybe typo the number?
Oh, and Auril was Aurilandur, an archfey known as the frost sprite queen, in dragon 376. I'll also note that Rellavar Danuvien is the frost sprite KING from dragon #236 (and a god of snow elves), and it specifically calls out Auril as his enemy. Guessing the divorce was not amicable and she took him to the cleaners
She left him out in the cold.  |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2017 : 03:11:35
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Yeah, there is a typo. My bad. Is Dragon 367. In the article about her Brian wrote. There is this bit of info:
"Auril's palace is a trophy hall of sorts that displays for all to see her victories over countless enemies over the ages. The Lyceum, for example, was crafted from the beating heart of the primordial Dur-baagal, whom she defeated at the dawn of time."
This means that, during the Dawn War, Auril opposed the primordials. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 13 Dec 2017 03:12:36 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2017 : 07:59:55
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Or, it could just be that she keeps fake trophies (or trophies she steals from others and then claims their victories).
Personally, I think anyone who saw her during the Dawn War - it was case of mistaken identity. It was probably Elsa from Frozen.
I forget what I came up with during my last round of Auril-musings, but I think she may be the second to hold the Crown of 'Frost Sprite Queen', so lore can be both true (of 'the god') and not true (of Titania's sister, specifically). That just rang a bell - i said someone else was The Queen of Air & Darkness, possibly Cegliune or Baba Yaga, and the title was passed down to Auril.
In fact, I had come up with my own name way back when (I considered both Auril and Umberlee 'Yuir Totems', and thus archfey, long before 4e reared its head or the term 'archfey' even came into existence) - Aurilana. Then Brian used Aurilandur (thanks for that, BTW) - I can work with that. Before she became Baba Yaga, she was an archfey known as Aurilana, and she had two daughters - her namesake, Aurilandur, and Ransalea. One pale, the other dark. Aurilana was considered dokalfar, like Grû-maas (Gruumsh), and after he and Cor Ellion had their falling out, she also left Faerie in her dancing hut (and took the name 'Baba Yaga', so she would no longer be associated with her kindred). She also takes Ransalea with her, and leaves her to be raised on Threnody (which I now think can be another Realm in Abeir). Aurilandur is left behind, and Yaga's sister, Danu, raises her as her own, alongside her daughter Titania. Titania becomes the new Fairy Queen when the Eladrin flee Abeir-Toril for the Feywild because of the balck Diamond, and auril is left behind, where she takes up her mother's former crown of 'Queen of Air and Darkness'.
Thus, we could have had two 'Aurils', both of which have had name/title changes, and it all works out. I know I left something out though - I think I involved the raven Queen the last time (oh... wait... we figured the Raven Queen was Kia-Ransalea's (Kiaransalee) true identity (or rather, the other way around), so I did involve her. LOL
BTW, in ancient Fae (the language), 'Ransalea' means 'Raven' (actually just 'Ransal' - the 'ea' part is to denote it as a female elven name). On Threnody, 'Kia' is a title denoting royalty, thus 'Kia-Ransalea' quite literally translates to 'Queen Raven." Bet you didn't see that coming. 
The Black Diamond drove her insane (as the same Xaos stuff drove Selûne crazy), and so she is 'of two minds' (thats what that stuff does to you - it even happened to Laeral when she donned the Crown of Horns, because thats the Black Diamond right there).
It all goes back to the splitting of THE ONE from the Primal Chaos. One became two, and then all else came from THE ONE. The Xaos is still out there (The Far Realms), waiting to reattach itself to the sentience of the universe (and go back to being 'The Nothing'), even if it has to do it one god/avatar/mortal at a time. To an aberration's way of thinking, mortals don't go insane, they go SANE - they believe the 'crazy' is supposed to be there and THIS (D&D) universe is the aberration. To them, the 'Pure Chaos' (Xaos) is actual a 'cure'. Its like a vaccine vs LAW. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2017 : 12:37:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Yeah, there is a typo. My bad. Is Dragon 367. In the article about her Brian wrote. There is this bit of info:
"Auril's palace is a trophy hall of sorts that displays for all to see her victories over countless enemies over the ages. The Lyceum, for example, was crafted from the beating heart of the primordial Dur-baagal, whom she defeated at the dawn of time."
This means that, during the Dawn War, Auril opposed the primordials.
Nice find. Where I'd take this is that the archfey were also fighting the primordials. Maybe in killing a primordial one could advance to god status? It would be interesting if say Dur-Baagal had been a primordial of cold. I will note that it says "the beating heart" .... so maybe he was kept alive somehow? Could make for a good story somehow. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2017 : 14:52:37
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| Yeah, Dur-baagal was a primordial of ice according to the roll of primordials in Heroes of the Elemental Chaos. He is also stated as "Dead" in that source. But that source also list Gargash as dead, and according to the Underdark sourcebook, Torog has to constantly destroy Gargash's remains to avoid it to regenerate to its fullest... so, it seems is hardest to kill a primordial than a god, as they self-regenerate (while gods need faith power to return to life). |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2017 : 16:37:14
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I was pretty tired when I typed that last night, and afterward I realized there may have been a simpler solution then the 'similar names' thing (although I still think someone held the QoA&D crown before Auril) - Auril could have fought (along with other Archfey/gods) against the primordial before she was corrupted.
Hence, it still ties into the Dawn War. During the conflict, one tactic of 'the enemy' was to corrupt (with Xaos Shards) the leaders of the opposing sides. However, I have the barest inkling of an idea that the opposite may have also happened. For example, we know Ubtao 'betrayed' his fellow Primordials. What if 'soul material' could be fashioned into Shards of Light, that oppose the darkness? What if some Primordials and other 'evils' got infected with a soul? That could explain why some of them could grant spells and others could not (my theory on souls being necessary to form those 'Divine Conduits' for clerical magic).
And now I am picturing a very COOL Ubtao saying to the gods, "Gimmee some soul". 
(and for you folks who aren't as old as the hills, that was a popular expression in the 60's) |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Dec 2017 16:38:09 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2017 : 17:54:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I was pretty tired when I typed that last night, and afterward I realized there may have been a simpler solution then the 'similar names' thing (although I still think someone held the QoA&D crown before Auril) - Auril could have fought (along with other Archfey/gods) against the primordial before she was corrupted.
Her corruption could have been a result of that fight, too. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2017 : 18:29:41
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Well, yeah. I kinda figured that there was a back-and-forth of 'corrupting' going on between the sides (and many switched sides, which is 4e canon), which was all part of the Dawn War (and wound up leading to the Godswar). There is this 'duality' vibe going on all throughout the D&D mythos (as well as parts of RW folklore). A 'two halves the same thing' (like Yondalla and Dalla Thaun, or Selûne and Shaar; it seems to be mostly - but not always - confined to the female gods).
I tried to put together yet another 'divine lineage' for the fey/Elven pantheons, but 4e has done such a thorough job of weaving damn Corellon (and Gruumsh) through just about everything, its nigh-impossible to place them accurately. Several events attributed to them happen anachronistically. I barely got started and I ran into a mess of problems. Oh well. Moradin also problematical, since the 4e lore (and thanks once again to ZeromaruX for putting all that together, else this would be an insurmountable task) also places him close to 'The Beginning', and we have it in the Complete book of Dwarves there is a 'High God' above even him (but that could just be a dwarven reference to 'The ONE', who now that I look at the lore, is no more - by splitting itself into hundreds {thousands? millions?} of aspects, it basically destroyed itself). Or the universe is just insane, which works for me.
THAT is now Atropus, The World Born Dead (which makes little sense, but that's 4e canon... go figure). I guess that was last piece left of the original, that just atrophied. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2017 : 19:10:00
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So, I am toying with my new concept for Pale Night as one half of duel-being (the other half being Danu, "The Light in the Darkness"), and I struck upon the idea of her being sort of like eclipso, and even though I gave up reading DC comics years ago (in the 80's I switched to Marvel), I recall there being a female version.
So I read the Wiki entry on Eclipso (not really finding any good pics of it as a female), and guess what? Something I had completely forgotten about... Eclipso's power is tied to a Black Diamond. Serendipity, or just a subconscious recollection surfacing in some of the lore I work on? The Black Diamond is also know as The Heart of Darkness, and Eclipso itself is a manifestation (aspect) of GOD's wrath - a precursor to The Spectre (who took Eclipso's place).
So when did DC lore become so good?
I can definitely work with all of that (I usually base a lot of my cosmic stuff on Marvel, but I can borrow from anywhere).
I wonder if that makes Dr.Manhattan 'God Born Anew' (the opposite of Atropus)?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Dec 2017 19:11:39 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2017 : 00:25:42
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So I was thinking...
I'm not sure if anyone ever thought about this before (I would be very surprised if it never occurred to anyone else) - but FR has this whole 'Light vs Darkness' juxtaposition going on as one of its main premises. Selûne vs Shar (The War of Light & Darkness), arcane (Weave) magic vs Arcane magic.
And ED gave us two main groups of elves, under which all the other fall out. Now, core D&D has always had the same (they actually had three, but there really is only two, because two of them just had very different ways of dealing with outsiders*). In GH/Core we had Grey/High Elves and Sylvan (Wood) elves, and all the others are offshoots of those. But those are the two main 'umbrella' groups the others fall under. In FR we had Gold & Silver (Gray) elves, and we had Sylvan (Green/Wood) Elves. I've been splitting them up all along those axis, including adding the new Mithril/Star Elves in with the Gold and Silver... which are also called Sun and Moon elves. Thus we have 'High' Elves - what would now be called Eladrin, and the former Sylvan/Green /Wood Elves, which would now simply be 'elves' (even though they are all elves). Although I hated it at first, I realized they just simplified tings in much the same way I had done; they just appropriated a Planescape term to do it (which is probably the main reason why people disliked it so much... it really wasn't all that much of a change).
Anyhow, my point is we have had Sun & Moon elves all along - one representing 'the night', the other, 'the day'. At first I thought I was on to something, but the problem is Selûne IS the Moon, yet she represents 'The Light', not 'the night'. If anything, the Moon elves do certainly feel like they compliment Selûne's outlook, but the sun Elves and Shar just doesn't work at all. If anything, they sound more like Auamantor (who, as the sun deity, must have somehow been involved in all that foolishness 'In The Beginning') - haughty, arrogant, somewhat tyrannical.
If anything, in this analogy, Shar would have been better represented by the Dokalfar (the orcs and goblinoids) and the drow. I just can't help thinking Ed was going somewhere with those names - 'Sun' and 'Moon' Elves, especially considering the dynamics of the setting. He didn't just slap names on stuff (I've learned over the years); there are very specific reasons when he uses 'Sun', 'Moon', and 'Star' in his naming conventions.
Any ideas how to make all this work? Is it all just a 'two sides of magic' trope? (We did have the Towers of the Sun & Moon in Evermeet as well... why TWO different Towers?)
*The three groups - Gray, 'High', and Wood - were nods to Tolkien in early D&D, and we've been moving well away from that over the years. There was never any reason - other than Tolkien's works (and even then, that's 'iffy') - why anyone would consider Gray Elves and High elves different (sub)races. It was just an 'outlook' (cultural) kind of thing. That would be like saying Americans and Russians are different subraces. Wood Elves, on the other hand, are fundamentally different - they are less about the surreal realm of Faerie (GH & Mystara used that more extensively than FR, before 4e) and more about just being material beings living their lives as simply as possibly (with humans that WOULD be a cultural thing, but with the elves - and their extra-planer heritage - it becomes a bit more complicated. Wood elves consider themselves NATIVE PRIME MATERIAL BEINGS, whereas Eladrin elves do not. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Dec 2017 00:38:38 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2017 : 15:19:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Yeah, Dur-baagal was a primordial of ice according to the roll of primordials in Heroes of the Elemental Chaos. He is also stated as "Dead" in that source. But that source also list Gargash as dead, and according to the Underdark sourcebook, Torog has to constantly destroy Gargash's remains to avoid it to regenerate to its fullest... so, it seems is hardest to kill a primordial than a god, as they self-regenerate (while gods need faith power to return to life).
This kind of fits with sword and sorcery's scarred lands premise, which is what I believe led much of the primordial exploration in 4e (basically, I think a lot of FR players were lured to at least read sword and sorcery's material). In there the gods are the children of the "Titans" (aka primordials). The gods require the worship of the living. The Titans don't. The Titans like to reshape the world, which destroys mortals. This hurts the gods. Still some races follow the gods and some follow the Titans. Anyway, a century or so prior, a godswar had finished with the Titans. The Titans however aren't destroyed. For instance, one is tied at the bottom of the ocean, and his blood is slowly polluting the sea and its creatures.
In this system as well, there are those Titans that betray the others. For instance, Denev, the earth mother is a Titan, but can be worshipped as a goddess. In this system, I think all clerics follow gods, but many druids actually are Titan worshippers. They didn't have warlocks, but I could definitely see warlocks being with Titans.
Anyway, getting back to why I wrote this... in there the idea is that the Titans aren't dead. They may be hacked into pieces, tied to the bottom of the ocean, eternally burning, buried in ice, etc... but they can come back from it, and they have cultists working towards that end.
http://scarn.wikia.com/wiki/Scarred_Lands_Wiki
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scarred_Lands
This is why, if I ever did do something to link Abeir and Toril in the same campaign, while I couldn't do so outside homebrew, I would lift heavily from this setting. I would have to change the gods as children of the Titans, and maybe change around some of the gods (or say that X is really Y, such as Denev being the earthmother of the Moonshaes <not Chauntea>... Chardun or Bane or Gilgeam as Laduguer... Tanil being Mielikki).... but for the most part, that CAN be left mysterious to the players and things could be run as is from their books. The big thing would just be how long the gods were there engaged in the big "godswar" and prior to it. That would require finagling. Still, a little finagling versus creating a new world... Since Laerakond is its own island, it can just be plopped into that world. Locating and plopping in Shyr becomes the only somewhat difficulty, and that wouldn't be too hard.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2017 : 19:54:59
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Yeah, I like that as well. Estelar are 'concepts' - more of a mental thing, spawned by the cosmos. Primordials are more of a 'physical matter' kind of thing - it won't just 'go away'. So longer as that type of physical matter exists somewhere, it will always respawn (the same can be said for estelar/deities, in that when a god has followers, the 'idea' of the god has respawned, and tus he pops back into existence... albeit perhaps a little different each time). Its as if the element itself is its own follower. because as long as it exists, and someone somewhere can see it, it retains its connection. Its 'anchored'. That could be just one of the reasons why the Aberrations want to return the universe to its primal state - with the elemental chaos, there are no clearly defined elements - just a big 'soup'. As I've said before, i think the elemental planes are the Elemental Lords themselves - they are the consciousness of those planes. In 4e, when the Inner Planes got smashed and (mostly) returned to their primal 'elemental chaos' state, the Elemental Lords were greatly depowered - its as if if 95% of their mass (power) had simply disappeared. Come 5e, they've managed to 'pull themselves together' somewhat, but nearly as completely as they were before - the four of them are no longer 'the sum total of all physical matter'.
And just like the Big-Daddy Elemental Lord, all the smaller 'spawnings' (Primordials, Titans, whatever) can also respawn as well. Just as Fiends, Celestials, and other planer beings get respawned by 'the planer stuff of the plane itself', so to do these guys, but there plane of original IS the Material Plane, so they will always respawn there.*
*And by 'Material plane', I actually mean the Material Dimension, which includes the prime and the elemental planes (and not just the four - also the para-elemental and psuedo-elemental that we so rarely hear about anymore). So really, when I say 'Material' Plane' I mean all the Inner Planes. In my homebrew material, the pre-Sundered version would just be Ymir, the Supernal of physicality (Matter). Post-Sundering, the Material Planes is conjoined with the Gaea - 'life itself'. The two dimensions have become one, and form the medium the Crystal Spheres float in, and also are still the Inner Planes as well. This last part has a lot to do with how I view 'soul stuff', and its importance to Outsiders (non-Material beings). And to go just alittle bit further, the Phlogiston is Gaea - it is raw lifeforce. Its also the ethereal plane - it just looks different when you are planetside. Ptah (Chronos/Chronepsis), another Supernal, watches over his 'sister' and (dead) 'brother', because he is the concept of space (the 3rd dimension). In fact, all the Supernals watch over the two merged siblings, but Ptah takes a more personal interest. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2017 : 21:09:40
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Now for the real reason I came to this thread...
Mentioned some stuff in the other thread about how I see 'local gods', and the differences between them and the 'planer versions' of them (The Archtypes). Basically, when the need for a type of deity arises within a culture, a person following that concept becomes 'Chosen' - a person 'filled with the holy spirit' of a planer archtype. Its an apotheosis, and it can be assisted by other 'gods'. At first it would just be a demipower, until it established itself, but it could grow all the way right on up to Greater Power, and possibly 'High God' (Pantheonic Ruler). They basically represent the archtype for that culture/world, and contain a tiny fragment of its power. This is how deities are made, IMO.
Much less likely, but still possible, is for a mortal to conjoin with a fragment of the elemental planes, and represent a primordial instead of an Estelar; in this instance, both Estelar and Primordials can be Archtypes. For the most part, this only happens with the 'big four'.
But what if a piece of an Archtype combined with something other than a mortal? What if it combined with a Celestial instead? I think this is what may have happened in the case of Asmodeus. Asmodeus has no soul, thus cannot 'grant spells'. However, in 4e he could - he was 'borrowing' Azuth to do this (we have since found out Azuth was never really absorbed - he just became an artifact that Asmodeus was using). Ont he other hand, Asmodeus is WAY powerful than any Celestial has a right to be (and he DID start out as a celestial - he's literally a 'fallen angel' now). So what if - when he was in charge of punishing the guilty (or simply imprisoning the malcontents) of the Dawn War in the Nine Hells, he became merged with a piece of Ahriman? This part is no new theory of mine, but now I am combining it with other stuff I just thought of.
The Ahriman/Jazirian thing in the D&D books (some of them, anyway) makes it clear that 'Jazirian' really just a local name for Ahura Mazda - two equal parts of the planer structure. In fact, 'Ahriman' is also another local name we just find convenient to use - the names of these types of beings are LEGION. They could also be Shiva and Vishnu, or even Io and Asgorath. There's also usually a third being added into that mix, but now I'm straying, and I don't want to do that here and now.
So the two (that are really just parts of THE ONE) create the Great Wheel - some sort of Uber-Artifact (machine) that is designed to do something (once again, I don't want to stray from my point LOL). 'Creation' by the way, is the Demiurge - the first being to spring from the Divine Feminine (the 'Hearth' Archtype). We could also call him/it 'Brahma'. Anyway....
We know most of the deities are actually spawns of Archtypes (at least, if you've been following my logic). When a concept needs to evolve, a mortal gets an infinitesimal fraction of the archtype's power. This is where all these 'gods' come from on all the different worlds, even the ones that look, act, and are even named similarly as ones from other worlds. We also know that 99.99% of those 'happened' after the First World get Sundered (Shattered). Very few 'deities' would have arose pre-Sundering (the few that would have been worshiped by the Creator Races, who would have been the only ones around at that time). In fact, in the 'Time before time', The Creators probably worshiped the Archtypes (Estelar) directly - there was no need for all this easy 'conduit' stuff. Everything was more direct back then.
But what about other beings that were around? And now that I am giving this a lot of thought, even the Creatori would have technically been 'celestials' back then (everything was, even the fiends, Dgen, lesser elementals, etc). Just 'servants of the gods' (Divine Order). So what would have happened if an Archtype gave this same thing to one of those? The thing that creates deities now? What if Asmodeus was really a proto-deity? Because he was never mortal, he could never be a deity (but he could emulate one, if he had a piece of an actual deity to play with). And we know Asmodeus was not the first ruler of hell - perhaps he grabbed the mantle after accepting Ahriman's offer to become 'his vessel'? Unfortunately for Ahriman, Asmodeus had already become powerful enough to resist becoming just a puppet, and retained his own identity. He is something fairly unique - an ascended celestial, rather than an ascended mortal.
So why bother with all this mental exercise? Because its a neat way of explaining how Asmodeus was always really 'a god' (at least since right after the Dawn War, anyway), and yet, at the same time, he wasn't. Not in the same sense deities are. He need that 'mortal connection' to establish himself finally. Now come 5e, I don't know whats going on. Is he still a god/ because I though Azuth got away. Or maybe, while he had Azuth's godhood in-hand, he was able to absorb another mortal mortal soul, or rather, finally have a 'Chosen' of his own (since he now had a clergy), and in the same manner I think the Elemental Lords were able to have churches, Asmodeus is able to do that too, now. He had enough power and enough of a connection (through Azuth) to choose a mortal vessel of his own, to ascend and become the first of his own little 'Dark Princes', as it were. Thus, Asmodeus got what he was REALLY after all along - Archtype status - he is now on-par with the older Gods - The Ordials (Estelar & Primordials and whatever else was around 'In the Beginning').
That would have been a MUCH greater coup than just becoming a deity. Now he can create his own 'local versions' of himself on prime Worlds. Its the End of Days.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2017 : 22:50:10
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| IIRC, Asmodeus is still a good in 5e, and Azuth is now separate from him. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2017 : 23:05:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So I was thinking...
I'm not sure if anyone ever thought about this before (I would be very surprised if it never occurred to anyone else) - but FR has this whole 'Light vs Darkness' juxtaposition going on as one of its main premises. Selûne vs Shar (The War of Light & Darkness), arcane (Weave) magic vs Arcane magic.
And ED gave us two main groups of elves, under which all the other fall out. Now, core D&D has always had the same (they actually had three, but there really is only two, because two of them just had very different ways of dealing with outsiders*). In GH/Core we had Grey/High Elves and Sylvan (Wood) elves, and all the others are offshoots of those. But those are the two main 'umbrella' groups the others fall under. In FR we had Gold & Silver (Gray) elves, and we had Sylvan (Green/Wood) Elves. I've been splitting them up all along those axis, including adding the new Mithril/Star Elves in with the Gold and Silver... which are also called Sun and Moon elves. Thus we have 'High' Elves - what would now be called Eladrin, and the former Sylvan/Green /Wood Elves, which would now simply be 'elves' (even though they are all elves). Although I hated it at first, I realized they just simplified tings in much the same way I had done; they just appropriated a Planescape term to do it (which is probably the main reason why people disliked it so much... it really wasn't all that much of a change).
Anyhow, my point is we have had Sun & Moon elves all along - one representing 'the night', the other, 'the day'. At first I thought I was on to something, but the problem is Selûne IS the Moon, yet she represents 'The Light', not 'the night'. If anything, the Moon elves do certainly feel like they compliment Selûne's outlook, but the sun Elves and Shar just doesn't work at all. If anything, they sound more like Auamantor (who, as the sun deity, must have somehow been involved in all that foolishness 'In The Beginning') - haughty, arrogant, somewhat tyrannical.
If anything, in this analogy, Shar would have been better represented by the Dokalfar (the orcs and goblinoids) and the drow. I just can't help thinking Ed was going somewhere with those names - 'Sun' and 'Moon' Elves, especially considering the dynamics of the setting. He didn't just slap names on stuff (I've learned over the years); there are very specific reasons when he uses 'Sun', 'Moon', and 'Star' in his naming conventions.
Any ideas how to make all this work? Is it all just a 'two sides of magic' trope? (We did have the Towers of the Sun & Moon in Evermeet as well... why TWO different Towers?)
I haven't commented much lately, as I've felt I've already said everything I can to contribute LOL, but I'll comment on the sun/moon elf names. It's a long shot, but here goes...
Corellon (even though his symbol is a crescent moon) is a sun god, and Sehanine is a moon goddess. While the elves worship the whole Seldarine, and Corellon is the leader, the moon elves had an affinity with Sehanine, and the sun elves with Corellon. This could contribute to their names.
The sun is also "brighter" than the moon, and, while both the moon and sun have a zenith, the sun is "higher/brighter" at its zenith (thus sun/high). Ironically, the sun/high elves have had "brighter" empires than the moon elves, but they have also had llarger "sunsets" (fallen empires, the Retreat, etc), whereas the moon elves have adapted fairly well. This may or may not have anything to do with the names, but I think there is a metaphor there.
Also, I still think it makes total sense that the Seldarine (at least some of them) were there in "the beginning". Many Faerunian deities, whether they are immigrant or native, are quite old, and have been around a long time, whether or not they had mortal followers and were not yet "racial deities". |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 17 Dec 2017 23:06:37 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2017 : 23:07:43
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Thats okay. I'm reading back through Zeromaru's History again, and there is a part in there in which Asmodeus kills He Who Was, the human creator god, but there is also something in there about Set (Zehir), so I have to try to piece that together as well.
The simplest solution may just be to say the the human creator-god (He Who Was) was also Ahriman. The Gods (and others) just spread a rumor that he was killed, since he is now forever bound as one half of the Great Wheel. Unlike Ahriman, whom Asmodeus keeps well bound (and absorbs any avatars/aspects he tries to release), Ahura-Mazda IS able to still manifest aspects in the world, as Jazirian (that helps fudge some of the confusing lore around Jazirian). Another name for Jazirian would be Quetzalcoatl, or 'Qotal' in Maztica.
EDT:
That response was to your last one (before the above). I was trying to find some info. I reworked most of my Seldarine/Fey stuff now, but its all in my head. When I start writing stuff down is when I start to notice the problem spots (inconsistencies, etc.). I don't really see Corellon so much as a Sun God, unless he's more like Lathander, but then again, maybe he is more like Aumanator (a somewhat tyrannical, 'jealous god' approach to HIS people).
I forgot all about the Sehanine/Selûne connection - good catch.
The Core (D&D) 'history of the universe' completely excludes Selûne, Shar, and Mystryl... too problematical, I would imagine. They use Bane an awful lot though - he and Gruumsh have a major hard-on for each other (Gruumsh crashed his divine Realm into Bane's, and the two have been 'at war' every since... and that was tens of thousands of years ago!) That would translate to Talos and Bane hating each other's guts in FR (I always did find it weird that the Gods of Fury and the Dark Three didn't work together - guess there were reasons for that. The first group is more 'primal', whereas the second group is more about clever machinations; both evil, but with completely different approaches). A Law/Chaos kind of thing. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Dec 2017 23:28:32 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2017 : 20:04:10
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So in two other threads I am talking about 'aspects of Archtypes' - what we usually just refer to as 'gods' in most settings. I used to think the number of aspects = the number of avatars, but that was too limiting, and it meant assigning a static DvR to the Archtype. now I think each aspect (and I am going with that term from now on over my own term 'Ubertar') has its own DvR, which can be different from world-to-world. that way, you don't have to count the number of avatars against the a singular DvR, which is silly, because then you'd have beings like Corellon who couldn't manifest on more than 20 worlds, even though he is worshiped on hundreds (thousands?). It also helps limit these Archtypes-gods (aspects) from our old notion of 'multispheric'. There is no such thing as multispheric. All Gods are multispheric, by nature. Different Crystal Spheres may have different aspects, with different DvR's (power levels), and even different portfolios, but that's Sphere(setting)-specific. Those are NOT 'multispheric'. Thus, there is no such thing as that - its an aged and now useless concept we can do away with.
So I was thinking about the differences between Estelar and primordials again, and hit upon that Estelar - being 'concepts' made sentient - are pure energy... the energy of 'thought'. Whereas primordials are representations of physical matter - they have substance. Both can manipulate both, but each is better at what they are, at their core. This is why primordials have more physical control over the Prime Material - its THEIR playground. The Estelar are just interlopers. My first thought was that this means that Primordials are not energy, but that's not so. I immediately thought of Air elementals, and how they can use lightening, and then I remembered ALL elements have associated energies. We have -
Earth - Acid
Air - Electrical
Fire - Heat/Fire
Water - Cold
and we also have
Life = Sonic (the '5th element')
And we have the Five Material Planes - the four elements, and the prime. These are what primordials should be associated with (and why, unlike Gods, they can be just physically trapped). Gods exist in the astral - there is no physicality to that. its 'pure thought'. So, does that mean psionic energy is another type of energy? Shouldn't D&D then make it like those, with resistances and such?
But I always had a problem with the D&D breakdown - 'Cold' should be part of fire, because the actual energy type involved is NOT 'fire', its caloric, and a lack of caloric energy makes thing cold. Then I would move 'sonic' into water, which doesn't sound like (see what I did there? ) it fits, but its actually PERFECT. Sound is just vibrational energy, and how do sharks and other sea creatures 'hear'/sense other things in the water? Through VIBRATION. In fact, the government is working on/testing/already has sonic devices that are supposedly for communicating with submarines (*cough* WEAPONS *cough*). You can boil water with the right frequencies. Tesla built a 'disintegrator ray' using sonics.
Anyhow, thats the way I would have made it - give water sonics, and cold to fire where it belongs.
That would orphan life (positive) energy, and we'd still have Psychic energy. There's also Death/Negative energy, which is usually relegated to 'shadow' and/or 'Void' (the lack of all elements). Since D&D tends to stick 'death' with Shadow, lets put 'Life' with the Feywild - thats a good fit, and they are already opposites. Not so good with my hombrew stuff, though. Actually, if I combine the Plane of Mirrors (which never got much traction anyway) with the Feywild, I can make it work. "Through the Looking-Glass", indeed.
So if the astral plane is Psychic energy, why is there no element associated with it? Then I realized, I CAN use my homebrew lore for this part - because the dimension isn't DEAD. Only in death does a dimension coalesce into 'firmament' (physical matter). Note I say 'dimension' and not 'plane' - Dimensions can contain multiple planes, just as planes can have layers, and layers can have demi-planes, and pocket planes, etc, etc). In my homebrew cosmology, the original material plane - the First World' - was shattered in the Dawn War. Each Dimension is represented by a different Supernal, and Ymir (solid matter) died. Matter only exists in that one dimension because he WAS matter. ALL matter.
And you can manifest matter out of pyschic energy - those ectoplasm creations (didn't they have a name in 4e?) Now, since I am associating 'all things psionic' (mental) with the astral, the 'plane of the mind', then I think I would want to mirror that with the ethereal, which I am just starting to think of as the 'plane of life' (in my homebrew stuff, spirit = 'mind', which gives me the three components I need for my system to work - Body, Mind, & Soul; the three things required for sentient Prime Material life). There's just one catch - The body simply disintegrates back into the plane-stuff, and the mind gets 'stored' in the astral somewhere. But the Soul goes to the upper planes, which are beyond the astral (in my homebrew cosmology - in D&D {now} they would go IN the astral... same place the mind goes, and that makes ZERO sense to me). So I am thinking I am missing a plane somewhere, since the ethereal is intertwined with the Material Planes now (I've just worked-out that that is the 'Gaea' - the lifeforce of another dimension now conjoined with the Prime Material). A place where the soul-stuff should go, but no longer does. I think the gods are way-laying these souls and stealing them, as are the fiends (and others). The system of 'Heavens & Hells' is artificial, as is the Great Wheel itself. It was never meant to exist - the gods just created all of that after the Dawn War. To me, that means they are trying to recollect all the residual energy from the dead Supernal (Dimension) Ymir. Energies that gets 'trapped' inside mortal bodies. Thats what makes them so valuable - they are a finite - and incredibly rare - commodity in the universe. There only 11 (known) Dimensions (Supernals), and the rest are still very much active. And since Supernals (in my homerew) are really just self-aware concept in the 'Mind of GOD' (the consciousness of the universe itself), that would make anyone who controls a majority of that energy incalculably powerful (they can literally rewrite entire swaths of reality - think of Supernals as each controlling one 'Soul Gem' from the Infinity Gauntlet, except in this scenario there are 11 gems... know.
And as for GOD (THE God, 'The One', 'Eternity', 'The Force', etc.) - it is no longer active. It was literally 'knocked unconscious' when 9% of its mind was cut-away (the death of Ymir). This is what some Beings are striving to fix, while others are striving to prevent - the reawakening of 'GOD' (and the "The Force will be with us" again).
Or maybe she's just playing Skee-ball....
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Dec 2017 20:10:26 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2017 : 20:25:09
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The last post was getting over-long (as usual). Apologies. Maybe I should get me a blog.
Another thing this brought to my attention is that then I would want another energy type associated with the ethereal (which I also think is Wildspace - its the plane Spelljamming actually takes place in), and then I realized, we already have one - Incarnum! And you can make stuff out of it, just like you can with psychic energy! Its a great fit - the astral and the ethereal control the two energy types NOT associated with the elements - Spirit (mind) and soul.
And the plane all that 'soul energy' is supposed to escape back to was the theoretical 'Ordial plane' (thats not mine - that was someone else's idea I stole off the internet). Thats the plane of the Overpowers (Archtypes). What Marvel Comics calls 'the Plane of Manifestations'. No-one knows about or talks it anymore because its basically a dormant plane now - it is/was the 'mind of God', where each of his ideas become manifest. It was also the battlefield where most of the Dawn War took place (the 'energy' parts mortals could not possibly comprehend). It also happens to be the sleeping mind of the World Serpent... since that IS the mind of God. its just the scalyfolk way of thinking of it. A fragmented, comatose mind stuck in fitful dreams. Such it the fate of our universe.
Until the 'Race of Destiny' fulfills their destiny, of course. GOD foresaw that, and that's why he ordered the first races to be created. It became a competition, of sorts, to see who can make 'the best one'. I haven't worked-out all the details of what that involves, but I know it concerns the Gith, and the Illithids.
*added link. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 19:35:59
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So my current 'thought project' revolves around some new (old) information that has come to light for me.
That 'RAW Magic' is really primordial (primal) energy. 'Magic', or rather Arcane magic - like what we get from The Weave - is really just a 'filtered' form of that. So whats really happening is that the trapped primordials (for aeons) have been having their energy leeched-away by the Weave (and other, similar 'cosmic constructs'). I've said as much in another thread last night.
But then I though about other lore pertaining to 'ancient Gods' (Tharizdun) and Elder Evils (Pandorym) - it seems a pretty common to imprison them by spearating their 'esence' (soul, intellect, whatever) from their physical form, in similar fashion to what liches do with their phylactories (after all, we know that on ALL OTHER PLANES, 'bodies' are just formed out of the planestuff, so it must work the same on the Prime, eh?) What would be the reason for doing it this way? For the reasons I just mentioned: if you 'kill' a primordial - a being native to the Material Plane - its essence will simply form a new body for it to occupy. Buuuuut, if you trap its current physical form and lock it away, rather than destroying it, the essence is likewise trapped, because it can't 'respawn'.
So my thoughts right now is that when Ao Sundered the world, he trapped the essence of the primordials on one world - mostly Abeir - and the bodies on the other - mostly Toril. Abeir-Toril itself may have been some sort of 'cosmic respawn point', before everything went crazy with the Dawn War. In fact... if you destroy the spawning point (Camping? LOL!), you could make it impossible for Gods to 'come back' after dying (since Gods can't ever truly die). I've always known that toril had some sort of Grand significance in the scheme of the greater universe, but now I think I may have been barking up the wrong trees. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2018 : 19:42:15
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| Except weren't the bulk of the primordials (both their bodies and essences) on Abeir prior to the Spellplague? |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 00:29:52
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No, that's what I used to think. However, there is now evidence that most of their physical forms were really buried on Toril. The 'essences' of the primordials were trapped on Abeir (like their 'ghosts').
A few, however, could have been the other way around. I think the Elemental Lords may be an example of this (thus, their intellects were active in the Realms, even if their physical bodies lie elsewhere). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2018 : 04:10:48
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| Feed into that the idea that the primordials are "dreaming" on Abeir, and in their dreams they're actually getting worshippers on Toril to somewhat treat them like gods. However, the difference being that standard gods, while they may accept sacrifices of beings, aren't DRIVEN by that. Standard gods get power from portfolios. If the Maztican gods are actually primordials, and they were entrapped on Abeir but extending power as gods via their own dreams for instance, their focus seemed to be about getting people to kill for them and offer up lives in sacrifice. So, primordials it would seem feed on soul energy, which feeds into the concept that the weave is based on soul energy to a degree. The World Serpent was acting the same way, which makes me wonder if in fact the world serpent wasn't some kind of Primordial turned god. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2018 : 04:48:31
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What i think the World serpent was (because it doesn't really exist anymore - too fragmented) is what I refer to as 'The Ymir' - the former, SOLID Prime Material plane that was destroyed (died in the Dawn war), making it the next tier above Estelar and Primordial - a Supernal.
There is even a bit of canon about this, or rather, another 'thing' along the same lines - Atropal (I think that's what it is called) is know as 'the god born dead', but what the 4e lore say it is is the 'afterbirth' of an unknown uber-God that sacrificed itself and died in the Dawn War. Thus, like so many other remnant of the World Serpent, the Atropal is just one more 'shard' (and Eder Evil one). Its the embodiment of the death-agony of a Cosmic god. We could even combine this with the missing 'human Creator deity'.
Because the World serpent is literally that - THE WORLD, and back in those 'before times', that would have been the entirety of the Prime Material (a dimension, rather than a plane - planes are just layers inside dimensions). When 'The Ymir' was Sundered/Shattered, the pieces of its exploded form began to coalesce into the Crystal Spheres (shepherded by 'The Gods' - all the remaining cosmic folk that had survive the Dawn War, even the 'evil' ones), and just as its physical body became the new Material planes, so its 'soul' was shattered, and became ten thousand gods. Set/Zehir represents Desire (lust, hunger, greed, etc), and is thus the most active piece, and he is trying to collect and absorb as many other aspects back into himself as he can (rebirthing the World Serpent as himself). If he succeeds, he will have become the sum of all of creation... not a good thing.
To this end he has allied himself with Loki, who perpetually tries to trick other gods into revealing pieces of the World Serpent, so Set can snatch them. This is why he got Thor to go fishing for Jörmungandr. Loki himself is the offspring of a primordial Titan (Jotun) and an Estelar, so their like cousins (but on that note, all gods are actually related). Loki's names are legion, and he has a presence as 'the trickster god' in most pantheons. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Jan 2018 04:49:01 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2018 : 23:22:32
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I have an idea for another thread, but I want to flesh the ideas out more - making the World Before Time, which would really just be a mental exercise, since it is long gone (although, theoretically, you could play an Exalted-style game there).
You'd have the supernals, who would barely be interacting with anyone else (in this scenario, they would be like 'the gods' to everyone else). Then you'd have two primary groups of beings trying to build the world - the Concepts (Estelar) and the Firmaments (the Primordials). One represents ideas, the other, physicality. There are couple of other specialized groups, like the Eternals, but I don't need to go into that now.
Then below this tier you have the 'minion' tier. I really want to use the word 'Archons' here, but that would be confusing (because it is a term used for something else), so I'll just reuse the word from 4e - Exarchs. Exarchs would be angelic beings (and would include the first fiends before they 'fell' and became fiends), and would include the Elemental Nobles (like genie Lords, the Vaati, the Sisters of Serenity, etc.). Below this group would be the 'lesser celestials' - like common angels, Devas (and YES, that's been repurposed in 4e, dammit), and powerful elementals. Then you'd have the 'drudges' - the bottom-of-the-barrel laborers. At first, I think these would have MANY forms - probably as many forms as there are them, but over time they became more refined and 'mass produced', to the point where they can even be considered the first 'races'. They would include - but not be limited to - the (proto) Dragons, Giants, and Dverge (dwarves). If you want to use a construction analogy, the giants would have been the workers, and the dragons more like the heavy equipment (bulldozers, etc). the Dverge were for the 'fine detail work', so like finish-carpenters (who don't come from Finland! lol).
Now, the Dragons I picture as something more primal (at first). Perhaps whatever is left of those early dragons (before they became 'reborn' when the worlds were seeded with their eggs - blood of Asgorath or whatever) devolved into the Linnorms. The Giants (Jotuns) would be the Eldritch Giants, a proud and noble race. Their heights would start at around 8', but could become any size they wanted, depending upon their power-level (so size is directly relative with both these groups, actually, and correlates directly with age). My oddest one, though, are the Dverge, and the closest thing we have to the original Dverge are the Firbolgs (What? Has Markustay gone mad? Brother, that ship sailed YEARS AGO).
Because to huge giants and dragons (and these planer varieties got MUCH bigger than terrestrial ones), a cute and cuddly lil' ol' Firbolg WOULD be 'a dwarf'. I actually started getting ideas along these lines after reading about a couple of them in RAS' novels - the dwarves literally look upon them as saints. Their reaction is similar to what a human's would be in the presence of an angel (proof of the existence of your god). And Firbolgs are incapable of lying - the dwarves are even adamant about that (would an angel lie? Could it?) Of course, the modern firbolg race is a devolved form as well, just as everything else is, in the aftermath of the Dawn War.
So, aside from the fact I got that idea from RAS, and that I've always felt firbolg looked like 'giant dwarves', there's also this: Firbolgs can change size. So can Duergar (dwarves), and so can Spriggan (gnomes). And all three are related to fey (through folklore, and gnomes officially as of 4e).
So, we have this place called the 'feywild', but I don't think it was always the Feywild. I think the Fey just named it that when they found it. In fact, I believe the lore even says Corellon 'discovered it' (sounds a LOT like what Christopher Columbus did... regardless of the fact there were other people living there). I think that was the "Giant's playground". I don't have a name for it - maybe Jötunheimr? Maybe that was the 'first Ostoria'? Whatever, it was really a bunch of 'kingdoms' (really more like 'workshops' with specialized workers for specialized projects in the on-going construction of the universe, but they would evolve into 'tribes', and then Kingdoms). So Corellon takes some of the head Fey aside (a race he created when he took a cr... ummm... bled.. or cried... or something...), and said, "Hey? See that cool-looking place over their? The one I DID NOT BUILD MYSELF? Yeah, go gather your people and bring them all there. Don't worry about the giants - just kill them if they won't move out of the way." (insert RW folklore about the Tautha DeDanann killing-off the Firbolgs and stealing their homeland)
I suppose he caught wind of the Dawn War before it even happened, or maybe the Dawn War had just begun, and he (uncharacteristically) tried to shield 'his people' from it by hiding them away. Whatever. The Fey retreat into the giantlands and rename it the Feywild. Annam (and his children, the Aesir) have ever-lasting animosity for the Seldarine (whom they call the Vanir). Battles will be fought later between the two groups, during the Gods War.
Now, the thing about the Feywild (formerly the Giantlands) is that it is a place of creation, primal creation. Matter/mass can easily be added to, or subtracted from, just about anything, even people. The giants where able to change their sizes (and even their shapes*) and the fey gained this ability as well (change is an integral part of the Plane of Creation - It was originally created by the supernal Ptah for his 'son' Annam, and Ptah IS the demiurge - the concept of creation made manifest). AFTER the Dawn War ended, when the universe (really close to the Norse concept of it) was shattered, The Feywild became it own plane - an 'echo' of the first world. A reflection, if you will, of the Prime Material on the bottom of the Upper Planes (which shine with a silvery light). The beings that were outside of the feywild lost their abilities to change size and shape (for the most part - some were able to retain them by 'anchoring' to other sources of primal power). The poor Dverge who were small (to get into all the 'tight places' below the world) were stuck in that form, and became the stunted dwarves. The others became the firbolg, and dispersed into the new worlds (Crystal Spheres), where they hoped they could live in peace. They carried their few belongings in sacks on their backs, hence their name (Fir Bolg literally translates to 'Men of Bags', and they were used as manual labor for extremely onerous jobs by others). To the modern-day dwarves, the firbolg represent that which they were, when they were 'heavenly beings'.
At least I finally got my dwarf lore worked-out. I need to finish with the giant vs dragon stuff to get it all cohesive. The dragons were also from 'Giantland', but they were treated more like dumb animals by the Giants, and are very resentful of that (as I said above, they were used like heavy construction equipment, and were thought of that way as well). I need to get all these inter-relations done before I can even begin to build my model of the First World - the world before mortals ever existed. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Jan 2018 23:45:46 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2018 : 15:27:26
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Not too related with the Realms, but it seems that the Weave does exist in the Nentir Vale, as Albanon, the protagonist of the novels, is able to see the structure of magic during the battle of Fallcrest in the second novel of the Abyssal Plague main trilogy (Oath of Vigilance), and he describes it as a Weave.
So, as Weave = Mystra, so it seems that Mystra potentially also exist in the Nentir Vale, even if she isn't actively worshiped there.
But, perhaps Mystra was revered when Nerath was whole and strong, and her worship disappeared with the fall of the Empire... that happened like 100 years ago (in the current year of a Nentir Vale campaign). Coincidentally, the Spellplague happened like 100 years ago in the 4e Realms. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 10 Jan 2018 15:32:40 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2018 : 19:58:12
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Wow, its funny that you bring this up - I was just heavily discussing this topic in the Returned Halruaa thread.
I think nearly all settings (Crystal Spheres) have some sort of Weave. I think ALL of them have RAW Magic. Raw Magic = 'Life', or rather, the 'life energy of the universe'. Some call this 'Mana', and it is extremely potent compared to 'filtered' magic (like pure Grain Alcohol is to liquor). Very few mortals can wield this easily, or effectively. Think of it as 'Spellfire' (Silverfire). Its literally pure Positive Energy from older editions. NOW, this is where my latest ideas come in...
Most settings have some sort of 'network' - a field of that encompasses everything within a crystal Sphere. I've pondered a generic name for this, and I think the best term would be the simplest, even though I am sure many here will object - a Mythal. It already does everything i need it do, without creating even more lore or unnecessary terminology. For those of you who are going to argue the point... DON'T. I don't care. What we have in FR is mostly Elven Mythals, and even those are of two types: Divine, and Arcen. More on that later. An Elven mythal is a type of Mythal. YES, I am aware thats not how the term was originally used, but we also didn't have different 'degrees' of Mythals back then, nor did we have Mythalars (a Human Mythal). I'm not even going to acknowledge posts trying to argue the point - this is HOMEBREW, remember. The only thing I'll add is that we've had early 30 years of published FR, and close to 50 years of D&D - things change, and this is minor.
So where do this 'Mythals' come from? We know that in FR, ours was created by Selûne and Shar fighting, and its called 'The Weave'. But is that true? Its myth, and its probably based on at least some truth. I think its a lot more complicated than that, though, and this is where the 'meat' of my new theory begins.
The Weave (and all these other 'magical planetary Mythals') are the result of Divine Worship. Planets (Crystal Spheres) already have magic all around them - its a naturally-occurring energy within the universe - we call it 'Raw magic'. However, as soon as you paste a pantheon over that, you begin to build this 'network', quite organically (how the internet started all those years ago). 'The Gods' establish connections with each other, and their followers, and the Network continues to become more complex. On some worlds (ones with a LOT of 'divine activity') we have extremely powerful, complex magical networks. Some become so complex they begin to form 'substations' for the energy - Nodes. On Toril there is an old name for that part of the network - The Road of Stars and Shadows.
The reason why I've come to this conclusion is that worlds with low or no godly presence have low to no magic. There is a direct correlation. Thus, I ascertain Earth (the D&D version) once had much more magic, because there were many more active religions around. The less religions, the less Gods, and the few we have left are almost all monotheistic. Thus, very little magic in evidence. However, raw magic is still there, and plentiful - you really can't get rid of that on the Prime Material Plane - they go hand-in-hand (see my other theories on The Ymir and The Gaea).
So what is 'Raw Magic'. Well, its the power of the primordials, of course! The primordials are directly connected to physicality - they are 'substance' incarnate. So if the Prime Material plane is completely infused with the power of Raw Magic, then the primordials themselves are 'Raw Magic' (power given sentience, which makes perfect sense when you understand how consciousness inside a brain works). The Estelar are concepts, and thus more ephemeral. They only hold as much power as their portfolio (the nature of the concept they embody) can hold sway over. In the beginning, there would have been far more primordials, but as time went on, and more 'ideas' began to emerge, more and more Estelar (proto-deities) gained dominion over various aspects of the physical universe, or, the Prime Material. This is the very crux of the contention between the Estelar and the primordials - the Estelar were beginning to exercise 'dominance' over the once all-powerful primordials.
Because these early 'gods' were 'looked up to' (the very beginnings of 'worship') by their underlings, these magical networks began to form. And as the universe became more complex, and the gods gained more control over aspects of it, the network grew stronger, eventually almost becoming like 'chains' to the primordials, keeping their own power in-check, while stealing from it and having it go to the Estelar. These were the very beginnings of 'Dogma', and its effects on the universe ("belief becomes reality"). And once the Dawn War was over, and the Universe became 'shattered', that first network also became shattered - possibly that was the 'Lattice of Heaven' that got broken.
To be continued... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Jan 2018 20:30:10 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2018 : 20:25:56
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So then we have our post-Dawn War, shattered universe. The Gods (Estelar and primordials alike) rush to try and coalesce the remnants of the first World (really, almost the entirety of that First Universe) into 'balls' of matter, which they then began to shape back into worlds. They send 'aspects' (small, shaved-off bits of their essence) into individual spheres they are interested in - usually ones with more of something they have more of a connection to. Since all of them have a connection to 'power', and all desire more (if for no other reason than to force their own agenda on the others), the pieces (Crystal Spheres) with the greatest amounts of energy (normally the largest pieces, but in some case, there could have been small yet very important pieces) attracted the greatest number of gods. Realmspace was one such Sphere. Just about every power existing at that time wanted a presence in Realmspace. This caused it to be a place of 'cosmic contention' so that Gods who were not interested in whatever Toril had going for it became interested because of everyone else's interest (this is a common phenomena we see even among mortals - form a line for no reason at all, and people will begin getting on that line, even if they have no idea what they are waiting for - TRUE fact). Thus, Toril became a 'Hot Spot', which drew a lot of attention from the Eternals (powers that sat outside the normal godly hierarchies), and one in particular - Ao.
Pantheons - something unheard of before - began to form, out of like-minded aspects. These helped to increase the power of the newly reforming mana-Networks - what we now call Mythals. But instead of one vast, all-encompassing Network (The Lattice of Heaven), we now had separate smaller networks for each world. Little 'lattices', or 'Weaves' (Mythals). Because of the new, separated nature of the Prime Material, each of these grew in unique ways, with subtle differences between them. Thats why Mages who trained on one world won't be as proficient on another ('Home Field Advantage'). However, some Gods could imbue their servants with their own essence, giving them their own tiny replica of that world's Mythal. These are Chosen. The most powerful Chosen (of any world) will be those of the God(ess) of magic, because the nature of that portfolio lends itself to what they do.
It is into this early 'Divine Soap Opera' (Machiavellian intrigues?) comes the first battles over these new worlds - The Godswar. The one thing that the gods learned from the dawn war was that the most epediant way to get your own way was to 'eliminate the competition'. Entire pantheons were annihilated within many spheres, just to level the playing field. But the Gods learned that this increased the strength of the primordials again - that without the Mythals - that 'network of control' that naturally formed around divinity - the Primodrdials would again reign supreme, and if that happened, they would never allow the Estelar to get the upper hand again. So the Godswar ended (after many aspects were destroyed - I think this is when the War of Light & Darkness must have occurred. In fact, it was probably the 'first shot fired' which sparked that greater conflict), and the God agreed to a 'cease fire', which supposedly exists until this day, although many gods find loopholes and other ways to work around it (and not just the evil gods - I draw you attention to Lahander's Dawn Cataclysm).
So what happens when the lattices - the 'Weaves' (Mythals) - fall on a world? Especially a highly contested prize like Toril? Why, the primordials begin to flex their muscles again. The 'chains' are broken, and they want to "come out and play".
Oh... and they're not very happy about their little 'time out'.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Jan 2018 20:28:30 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2018 : 22:22:05
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Well, funny, in a recent video, they mention that "some worlds" do indeed have a Weave...
So, either Mystra is multiversal now, or there are many other gods that have Weave-related duties. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Cosmology Theories
