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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Mar 2017 : 03:15:22
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quote:
Heck, Star Trek went to 'other universes'/dimensions (quantum realities) a bunch of times. Even the mirroverse (where we first learned that goatees are evil).
Goatees have always been evil, lol. Even if you call them "Van Dykes" or "beards".
Insofar as combining magic and science (or science fiction) ... there's little need to go into such elaborately detailed analyses unless they affect specific mechanics in a game/setting. We have many things (like the internet, GPS smartphones, TV, microwaved popcorn, and flu-shots) which could only be explained and understood as "magic" to anyone from the Realms.
Perhaps a dwarven engineer or a cleric of Gond Wondermaker could understand how the stuff under the hood of your car works - in principle, at least theoretically, even though it might be entirely nonfunctional and nonworkable in the Realms. To anyone else it would just be some kind of "magic".
Just as perhaps an avid fantasy roleplaying geek or fan of Realms novels in our world might understand how a teleport spell works - in principle, at least theoretically, even though it might be entirely nonfunctional and nonworkable on our world. To anyone else (especially those with a sci-fi bent) it would be some kind of "science".
And we might like to explain our "magic" with quanta and superstrings and dark matter and logical conclusions drawn from rigourous observation and methodical experimentation, but it's still just a whole bunch of arcane babble and convoluted complex rituals which are used to achieve the kind of consistent, reproducible results that we understand. Just as spellcasting in the Realms is as much art as "science", it also achieves consistent, reproducible, understandable results. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 16 Mar 2017 03:18:15 |
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AuldDragon
Senior Scribe
USA
549 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2017 : 05:04:01
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
Does changing things so that Spelljammers "spelljam" into the Border Ethereal over "space" rather than through the Prime Material "space" damage any assumptions of the setting, or introduce any other major new contradictions?
Air isn't an issue on the Ethereal plane; it *is* an issue in Wildspace and the Phlogiston. But it is also possible to travel about without a helm; time and air are the only limits. You can shove off from an asteroid city in a rowboat and get anywhere else if you want (with a possible limitation on getting out of the Crystal Sphere if there are no natural portals). Flying creatures can also leave a world without entering the ethereal; they don't because they generally don't have enough air to get anywhere. The ability of Pirates of Gith to planeshift into the Astral plane would break, since there is no way to move directly from the Ethereal to the Astral. The Phlogiston is completely closed to all other planes, which to my knowledge is no known effect on the Ethereal or any other plane. The Spelljammer-specific spells Locate Portal, Detect Powers, and Disable Helm would no longer work. Contact Home Power would also fail if a priest's deity is on the Astral or Outer Planes (although it shouldn't be necessary since the ethereal doesn't block priests from gaining spells). That's just the quick list; that of course doesn't cover many of the other differences between how the Ethereal plane and Wildspace and the Phlogiston work.
Jeff |
My 2nd Edition blog: http://blog.aulddragon.com/
My streamed AD&D Spelljamer sessions: https://www.youtube.com/user/aulddragon/playlists?flow=grid&shelf_id=18&view=50
"That sums it up in a nutshell, AuldDragon. You make a more convincing argument. But he's right and you're not." |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2017 : 12:55:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Right - that was my problem with it - there was no way of reconciling arcane space with real space, and yet, we have D&D canon that 'normal' spaceshps do exist, and that Earth (the D&D earth) exists in the same universe, which would mean all of our current science is completely wrong... and thats why it just doesn't "feel right".
So we came up with that, and it doesn't violate SJ canon for the simple reason that people on these 'magical' worlds don't realize their SJ helms are shifting them slowly into the Border Ethereal as the leave the breathable atmosphere. They would think that IS 'space'. They don't know the difference.
There is no 'illusion' on the moon - thats the best part. When someone with a halfway decent telescope on Toril looks at the moon, thats what they see - a barren, empty place. But when someone travels toward it (using any sort of magi-tech), they enter the Border ethereal, and THAT version of the moon would become apparent. Same for the other planets.
Now, if we postulate an advanced world that still has 'magic', then they would probably be aware of both versions (and maybe even have ships designed to utilize both). Picture something like the Enterprise, or Battlestar Galactica (or an imperial Star-destroyer, etc) with an SJ helm attached. But they'd probably have a full-blown, 'Planesjammer' Helm, which should be able to shift into other planes as well (so not just back-N-forth between the Border Ethereal and the Prime material). Normal Warp technology (hyperspace) doesn't work in close proximity to a singularity (I think you have to be at least out around Saturn or something), so basically you just say you can't switch while in Wildspace/normal intrastellar space (well, you could, just like you can try to go to warp closer to the sun... but you run certain risks).
Heck, Star Trek went to 'other universes'/dimensions (quantum realities) a bunch of times. Even the mirroverse (where we first learned that goatees are evil).
So, since worlds that have both magic and technology are very rare, worlds where both would be known and explored would be rare. Our world (and other scify planets) would almost entirely use the normal (Prime Material) version, and magical worlds would almost always use the arcane (Border ethereal) version.
And it means certain other 'oddities' now also work, like an old gem of a game, Space: 1889, where Victorian-era folk travel to Mars (in sailing ships - about a year or so before SJ did it). That could have been the D&D Earth, and those steampunk spaceships also utilized the Border Ethereal version of space, and thats the Mars they visited. Same would go for any Jules Verne story, like From the Earth to the Moon. This theory of two different, overlapping versions of 'space' makes lots and lots of things work for us. 
Oh... and Mongo, from Flash Gordon. It never made sense - a 'rogue planet' that travels into star systems form outside, with life and an ecosphere all its own (with NO sun?  ). But if Mongo were traveling through Wildpsace, then it all makes perfect sense. And THAT planet would have duel-space capabilities.
Hmmmm, I'm biting on this more. So space as we know it (let's call it "Science Space") and this border ethereal "wildspace" LOOK the same because the border ethereal has always somewhat mirrored the prime. The idea of the moon not having an illusion, but rather its a lie that even the moon's inhabitants don't understand.
The problems I see. People SEE things on the prime from the border ethereal, but they can phase/pass through them and generally can't interact with them. Unlike the shadowfell/demiplane of shadow, they aren't "copied" across. What you describe would possibly be better described for spelljamming as crossing into the darkness of the shadowfell for "wildspace". Then at some point, you reach the "crystal sphere" and cross into the Phlogiston... which maybe is very close to the "Far Realms"... considering you can't summon anyone in the phlogiston, lose contact with your deity, and the whole area is a deathtrap waiting for a spark.... and if it WERE close to the Far Realm it MIGHT explain all these neogi, aboleth, and mind flayers in space. Of course, the problems with this idea of using the shadowfell are that most systems have this brightly glowing sun.
Another idea COULD be that in "Science Space" we're actually crossing into a plane of "void" in order to traverse between planets.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2017 : 18:46:51
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Well, you could call this 'magical space' anything you want (or just use the terms SJ uses, but understand that you've phased out of 'normal space' as you left the atmosphere).
The reason why Grey Richardson and I used the Ethereal and Border Ethereal is because we had that conversation when 4e first came out, and there didn't seem to be anything SJ related 'in the works', and yet the 'Sea of Night' was mentioned, and SJ was used in one early 4e novel series (Rich Baker's Blades of the Moonsea). They also seem to have completely dropped the entire concept of an 'Ethereal Plane' in 4e (although later it may have been reintroduced - by that time I was no longer following anything D&D/FR was doing). So we took those two things - a need for some SJ lore in 4e and our 'lost' Ethereal Plane, and merged them, and also managed to explain-away a whole bunch of inconsistencies between RW physics and SJ 'tech'.
It was never meant to be a 'OMG we figured out D&D! We are SO smart!" moments. We KNEW full well it wasn't supposed to be that way. We were just using what we had to work with, to try and create something that may prove useful to others. We are also aware that it isn't a 100% 'perfect fit', but its a pretty damn good one, if I do say so myself. For someone like me - having not liked Spelljammer from its outset - it seemed like the perfect compromise to explain how both RW and magic space can coexist. The other added bonus is that SJ is just a specific type of Planesjamming - there already are 'boats' that can sail the astral seas, so why not ones that sail the ethereal seas? its just a different flavor of world-hopping, is all. It not only becomes more palatable (to some of us), it becomes more useful. If you could get your hands on an 'Omnijammer'©, you could probably use both transitive planes - Astral & Ethereal (and I would probably lump-in the Feywild and shadowfell) - and go wherever the hell you like... including hell.
But watch out for those pirate fiends... they'll bedevil you.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Mar 2017 18:51:16 |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2017 : 22:52:00
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Perhaps we could also say the Border Ethereal is spread so thinly over "space" that it doesn't truly function as transitioning to another plane when you go there - at least not in the same way. That way the plane-jumping spells should still work as intended without need for modification. That could also explain why Spelljammers can make that "jump" but not jump as easily to other planes.
If going with this, it might even benefit to call the thinned Border Ethereal over space something different to avoid confusion... something like ""wildspace"!  |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 16 Mar 2017 22:52:59 |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2017 : 16:31:48
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I'm back to thinking about overarching cosmology theories, and here's what I have currently. It uses some of the same words as my old theory, but it's quite different.
The Forces of the Universe
At the core of the universe are two concepts: a force for life (positive energy), and a force for the non-existence of life (negative energy). At the centre of each of these forces is a raw sentience that is gradually shaped over time by the universe that will spring up around it. However, these sentiences are not so much consciousnesses, but are better seen as raw forces of the universe. One craves the building of life, the other craves the void of nothingness. The sentience that is at the center of the force for life is what Ao will one day call Master, but here I will refer to it as the Ubergod. The sentience at the center of the force for nothingness is perhaps best described as the Antigod. These forces are not moral - they are forces of nature.
Gods and Primordials
The Ubergod desires Life to spread throughout the universe. "Life" to the Ubergod is more than just raw existence: it is the pursuit of goals, it is devotion to ideals, it is the refining of souls rather than the mere duplication of their number (although that is also a factor). In order to achieve this, first the Ubergod uses its power to create the deities - the gods and the beings later known as the primordials. The first primordials are created by Positive Energy infusing the raw Elemental Chaos, for simple purposes: to create beings that will give shape to the universe, craft worlds, and drive raw matter into the Material Plane. At the same time, the Ubergod creates the Gods in the Astral Sea. These beings, formed second in the Ubergod's sentience if not in practice, are more complex - the Ubergod desires them to create Life. These first gods are not just given the power to create mortal races, but are also designed to represent certain ideals that mortals will grasp for, to spur the refining of their souls and the furthering of the cause of Life.
The gods and primordials are granted consciousness so that they might better achieve their aims, rather than being mere automatons. This allows them to adapt to the times, to alter their way of thinking as it becomes necessary. To spur the gods to further the cause of Life as well as their own agendas, the Ubergod makes it so they can gain more power through the faith of mortals. The Ubergod ties faith-energy to the existence of every mortal soul, faith-energy that empowers deities when they are worshiped. This drives gods to create mortals to worship them, and also determines that the future of each god will be influenced by the desires of mortals.
However, primordials do not feel the desire for mortals to worship them anywhere near as strongly as their desire for the making and unmaking of worlds. With the gods requiring the stability of worlds for their mortals, and the primordials desiring to unmake worlds, the stage for the Dawn War is set. The Ubergod foresees the Dawn War however, as well as its end - it is all part of the bigger picture. The primordials will have served their primary purpose, and the gods will grain better knowledge of themselves and the universe through the conflict.
The Overgods
Knowing that once the gods have made the primordials subservient to them they would surely squabble between each other over the worship of mortals, the Ubergod creates the Overgods to oversee the interactions of the gods. These Overgods are empowered with consciousness, just as the deities were, in order for them to better achieve their goals. Each Overgod is granted dominion over a region of universe, in that they can set the rules for faith-energy in their sphere, control the flow of that faith-energy, and allow in and remove deities from their domain as they see fit. Each Overgod also differs from the next, ensuring differences in how different spheres operate - so that mistakes made by one Overgod will not be repeated elsewhere. The Overgod known as Ao comes to the part of the universe later known as Realmspace, the Overgod later known as the High God comes to Krynnspace, and so on. This pattern is repeated all over the multiverse, with the Overgods laying claims to regions of space the primordials have crafted. Gods thus find that to access the faith-energy of the mortals they create, they need to abide by the rules of the Overgod in the sphere they operate in. The Overgod can also bar or allow entry of gods into its sphere as it sees fit. All this is in the name of maintaining the Balance - a balance constructed by the Overgod in their realm to ensure the continuation and flourishing of Life.
Realmspace
The Overgod known as Ao sees an idea of perfection in the concept of initially allowing only two gods into his crystal sphere: a god of light and a god of darkness. The god of light, later known as Selune, will be driven to create life, while the being of darkness, later known as Shar, will be driven to extinguish it: replicating the struggle between Life and Nothingness that has existed since the beginning of the universe. This is Ao's only act in his sphere for many millenia - the setting of the initial rules, and deciding on who he allows in first.
First, Selune and Shar battle the primordials in Realmspace's private battleground of the Dawn War. They summon other gods to their aid, as well as create new gods out of their battles - finding that refining certain parts of their essences into separate beings helps them, such as refining the warlike part of oneself into a separate god of destruction. They then turn on each other, creating new gods out of those battles - such as gods of war and death. This battle is ongoing, but Ao ensures that it never truly threatens the existence of Life - which begins to flourish on the world of Abeir-Toril.
One of the gods summoned by the sister goddesses at that start of the conflict with the primordials is Ouroboros, the World Serpent. Ouroboros comes to lead the Elder Gods in the conflict, and once that conflict ends, he is one of the first to lay down the seed of life on the world - creating the sarrukh. Soon after, the triplet deities Krocaa, Syranita, and Quorlinn together create the Aearee. However, these gods discover that they were beaten to the punch by another deity who had created a mortal race even before the Dawn War ended: the batrachi, a race of sea creatures created by the devious god Ramenos in Abeir Toril's Blue Age. Ramenos had transformed the batrachi in order for them to survive the Shadow Epoch, and once it ended they began to build once more. Soon after, the first interloper races begin to appear: the Fey appear from the Feywild, and humans appear through gates from other worlds. The gods know that are part of a mass exodus of their kind from another crystal sphere, spreading across the multiverse.
Although these humans are still primitive, and will not play a large part in events on Abeir-Toril for many years, the other gods that had been preoccupied with warring with each other until recently begin to take an interest in this race. They find humans to be near-perfect in the ratio of soul-development to breeding: perfect for harnessing faith-energy. The humans begin to worship primal things - the wind, protector spirits, hunting gods - and the gods slowly change to resemble these ideals. As humans spread throughout the world, the gods split, change, and occasionally new interlopers arrive. Over thirty-five thousand years, humans develop into many different peoples, with many different pantheons of gods. Other races are born or arrive on Abeir-Toril as time passes.
...And The Other Force That Is The Unmaking Of Life
All the while, across the multiverse occasionally a crystal sphere comes to an end. This is the creeping, ever present force that is antithetical to the goals of Life of the Ubergod. This is the Antigod - the force for Nothingness that exists at the core of the universe. Its heralds, the obyriths, advance from crystal sphere to crystal sphere, preparing everything for total annihilation. Some say it was they who destroyed the first world of the humans, and they have their sight set on Abeir-Toril next... |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2017 : 05:56:31
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Taking yet another shot at this! Keen to hear opinions. This one's a bit different to previous ones.
There are two primal forces that drive the universe: Creation and Annihilation. These forces exist outside of time and the universe of matter that we know, in a fluctuating state that flares between the possibility of a created multiverse and absolute nothingness. These infinite fluctuations produce many universes, but each of them is undone by Annihilation as soon as they are made by Creation. Over time, a sentience for each force is built, as fluctuations upon fluctuations build upon what has come before, but these consciousnesses never actually meet. Eventually, Creation finally breaks through a threshold of dominance over Annihilation, and is able to produce a universe that can sustain space and time.
The Creation of the Universe
In a single instant, a multi-tiered explosion of Creation occurs. Creation first explodes as matter - the creative energy changing at a quantum level into the physical building blocks of the universe. This is the Elemental Chaos, and over time it will become more organized as like particles attract like - becoming the Elemental Planes. Each particle of matter is infused with the possibly of Creation - much like a vibrating string, these particles can be made into something entirely different if the right force is applied.
The second explosion of Creation occurs a fraction of a nanosecond after the first. The initial burst of Creation which creates the Elemental Planes is too much for the universe to handle, and so an entirely new universe bursts open. This new universe opens from a single point - an initial singularity through which matter from the Elemental Chaos explodes through. This is the Big Bang, and it creates the Prime Material Plane as we know it today - the universe of both Earth and Abeir-Toril.
The connection between the Elemental Planes and the Prime Material Plane created in that second explosion does not evaporate - in fact, it expands, widening across both planes. The connection slowly brings the universes just alongside each other, just like discs floating above one another - although outside of actual space. This connection becomes the mists of the Ethereal Plane.
The explosion of Creation has an unexpected effect - it separates the sentience of Creation from the raw physical particles that it drives. The raw physical particles that do not vibrate into elemental matter do not explode through into the Prime Material Plane, but instead their particular qualities congeals them into what becomes known as Positive Energy - the raw energy of creation. This will eventually form the Positive Energy Plane. A second unintended side-effect of all this is that Creation finds that a physical part of Annihilation is also present, having been somehow dragged along with it - this energy congeals into the Negative Energy Plane
This was not expected by Creation, and it reveals a fundamental truth of its nature - Creation and Annihilation are different sides of the same coin, different vibrations of the same string. As the potential for Creation is surging through the universe, so is the potential for Annihilation. Nevertheless, Creation is the dominant force at this point in time, and the potential of Annihilation within every particle lies far more dormant than that of Creation.
While the first explosion of Creation separated its sentience from the raw energy of Creation, the second explosion separated them more permanently by sending the sentience flying into the Prime Material Plane along with the building blocks of the Elemental Planes. However, the sentience, the very mind of Creation, expanded more rapidly than the Prime Material Plane did, and this ripple caused the opening of another Plane - the First Outer Plane, into which the mind of creation settled. The connection between this Outer Plane and the Prime Material does not disappear (similar to what had occurred between the Prime Material and the Elemental Planes), but instead widens to a broad connection that becomes the Astral Plane - a connection made possible by the mind.
The Overgods, Primordials, and Gods
The multiverse thus begins to settle into the Inner Planes, the Prime Material Plane, the Outer Plane, and the transitive Ethereal and Astral Planes. But the mind of Creation is not yet finished. Although the potential for sentient life - the ultimate desire of Creation - now exists throughout the Inner Planes and the Prime Material Plane thanks to the matter infused with the Creation throughout it, it is a mess without order. Matter smashes into matter, and life is never given a chance to last. The Prime Material Plane exists primarily as a mess of matter expanding out from a single point, not yet organized into the planetary systems we know today. That mess of matter is all connected by the raw, tangible power of matter's attraction to matter. These connections later become known as the Phlogiston.
First, Creation makes smaller copies of its sentience, and with them forms the Overgods from the stuff of the Outer Plane. Creation tasks the Overgods with preserving the delicate Balance it has created, a Balance that should ensure the flourishing of life throughout the multiverse. At the same time, Creation sparks the creation of the Primordials in the Elemental Chaos. Sentiences form amongst the matter of the Elemental Planes, and he gives these beings the desire to make and shape the multiverse. The Primordials not only begin to give some shape to their home in the Elemental Chaos, but they also travel to the Prime Material Plane, whereupon they begin shaping the ripples of matter into planetary systems. Some they design around a sun - like that of Earth. Others initially have no sun, like that of Abeir-Toril. the Primordials however, are not given a care for whether or not life is created - they were merely made to give shape to the universe. The Overgods watch with great interest.
The Overgods quickly realize that their greatest task must be to ensure that life can flourish. The Elemental Chaos is by its nature entirely too mutable, and the Outer Planes are the domain of the mind alone, so they concentrate their efforts on the fledgling systems of the Prime Material Plane. Overgods individually task themselves to planetary systems that hold the most promise for life - a number quite small, considering the vastness of what Creation had built. They find even the worlds of the Prime Material quite difficult to build life upon, due to the influence of the Phlogiston. Thus they create the Crystal Spheres to prevent the Phlogiston from affecting their individual worlds.
Creation then, its pieces set in place, retracts its sentience entirely from the Outer Plane, and indeed from time and space, leaving the Overgods to watch over the multiverse in its stead. The Overgods, having not the power of the Creation, soon realize that the guardianship of the Balance that ensures life is a task for many hands - more hands than the Overgods alone can provide. They create the first Gods to fulfill this task, each Overgod creating a different set as they see fit - and as each Overgod was formed from a different mirror of Creation, each set of Gods created is thus different as well.
After the First Gods are created, the Overgods variously withdraw themselves from everyday affairs to seek other systems throughout the Prime Material upon which they can trial their efforts, or simply withdraw to a distance to carefully watch their creations. Ao is one such of these Overgods, creating the Crystal Sphere of Realmspace, creating the conditions for Selune and Shar to appear, and then withdrawing. Other Overgods include the High God of Krynnspace, and the Overgod of "Earthspace".
Not long after this, the Primordials react unexpectedly and violently to their dominion over the Prime Material being taken from them by the Overgods and the Gods. Infused with near the same potential as the Gods, the Primordials invade the Outer Plane and shatter it into many fragments. This event is also known as the breaking of the Lattice of Heaven. Long after the Dawn War ends with the defeat of the Primordials, the Gods reforge the shattered Outer Plane into multiple Outer Planes existing alongside each other in a Great Wheel.
Life, Humans, and the importance of Earth
Meanwhile, life begins to arise on the individual worlds. On one of the first worlds touched by the Overgods, Earth, humanity arises through a long process of evolution. Many different gods are inspired by the rise of this curious race, whose faith seems to further power the gods and make them more powerful. It is thought that their powerful minds somehow lends more energy to the mind-energy of the Outer Planes, but few gods have an inkling as to why. The evolution of humans gives gods ideas for the creation of more such races. Working from the pattern of the humans, Moradin creates the dwarves, Corellon creates the elves, and so forth - and creation occurs in waves across the multiverse. Gods also import humans to various worlds to fuel their own faith.
Because of the importance of these humans, their home world of Earth is mentioned in more detail here. The Overgod of Earthspace, unlike Ao, did not just ensure the creation of two gods to tend to life, he created many. These gods included entities later known as Anu, Ptah, Brahman, Kukulkan, Gaia, Dahgda, Dievas, Buri, and Shang-ti, among others. However, he also decreed that these gods were not allowed to create life on their own - instead, they would act as gardeners to what occurred naturally. Similar to what would happen in Realmspace, these early gods clashed against the primordials and each other, and many other divine beings would spring from these interactions, as well as interactions with mortals across the millennia. For instance, Buri's interactions with the primordial "frost giant" Ymir would see the eventual creation of Odin, later god of the Norse people.
Following the end of the Dawn War in Earthspace, the gods settled to watch the slow birth of sentient life on Earth. They did not content themselves with this however, and long bickered, fought, and challenged each other on who would have dominance over the world. Eventually, they fought against each other in a great game that would decide regions in the world and times that each would be dominant. The god Anu won an early game, and decreed that he would oversee the first great civilization to rise. Buri had already passed on his duties to Odin by this point, who decreed that he desired to rule the fiercest seafaring people that would ever exist... and so on, until all the gods had staked their claim.
Nevertheless, the gods were not content with just waiting. Even as humanity was beginning to grow in number and intelligence, some of these gods started seeking out other worlds, with other gods, to try and get in on the action. One of these early gods was Oghma, who found himself finding joy in naming things on the world of Abeir-Toril when it was in its earliest moments. Over time, other gods like Silvanus and Tyr would join him there, similarly becoming multispheric. Other gods would abandon Earth entirely, seeing their own roles without a future. Such gods included Tyche, Mielikki, Loviatar, and Kiputytto. This would prove to be a good move, for eventually all the gods of Earthspace would start losing the faith of those who lived there. Some say this was the divine plan of the Overgod of Earthspace, who had strangely begun appearing to mortals himself, first in the form of a monotheistic deity called Ahura Mazda - and later, simply as "God". By modern times, it has become clear to nearly all gods that their time on Earth has no future. Why the Overgod of Earthspace is acting like this remains a mystery.
The Future
All the while, life continues to flourish throughout the multiverse, as the Balance is largely maintained. However, within everything that Creation has touched, there is the potential for Annihilation. Just as every point of matter Creation produced has the potential for life within it, it also has the potential for annihilation. As does every God. As does every Overgod. As does Creation itself... |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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Misereor
Learned Scribe
164 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2017 : 11:52:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It also occurs to me that maybe the Far Realm (a concept I really hate, BTW) could have been the origin of all things. Maybe the Far Realm was once relatively normal, but then something was released or went wonky, and everything that could fled into the D&D multiverse and made sure to close the door behind them.
I always felt it was insinuated that the Far Realms was the "normal", and the D&D multiverse is the latest in a series of temporary anomalies, whether naturally occurring or by design (Ao & boss).
Obyriths, for example, originate from one of the shattered spheres (multiverses predating this one) but are anathema to this reality, which is why they need the shard. They need it to 'align wavelenghts' with this reality, or they would be unable to exist in it. <insert plotline about wanting to align the entire multiverse, essentially remaking this existence into a new version of their old home.>
I think there is a strong case for 'different realities' plotlines in canon, even though they are not used as sparingly as greater plot reveals should be.
@Thread in general.
If gods require worship to exist, then it follows that species capable of worship must first have existed. Primordials on the other hand, are a type of manifestations of various phenomena in this reality. Stuff like earth and fire, but also life, storms, light, and darkness, achieving conciousness, desire, and power, so they likely existed first.
So why did worship change things?
I'm guessing it was because "souls" happened.
Take Light and Darkness, typically associated with Selune and Shar. Those two things must have existed before worship by mortals did, so they cannot have been gods at the time. On the other hand, they fit the role of natural natural phenomenon perfectly, i.e. primordials.
Achieving consciousness didn't just happen to primordials, it eventually happened to lesser beings as well, and the same power came with it (proportionally). I'm guessing some primordials found a way to tap into this power via worship, but in so doing became spiritually merged with their worshippers, and even dependent on them. This was tainted/impurity in the eyes of their fellow primordials, thus sowing the seeds of the Dawn War.
In a world where primordials walk around like a human in combat boots near an anthill, the protectors of the ants are likely to get upset. Especially if they die or diminish if their ants do. Large scale conflict was pretty much inevitable.
Back to souls. If the energy of souls is a different version of the same universal energy that powers primordials, gods, and indeed all living things, then that explains the blood war.
I see a lifecycle of the D&D soul where it comes into existence at birth (or conception. Who cares, abortion is not an issue in D&D), grows stronger in proportion to it's experiences during life, goes somewhere after death, and eventually fades away after a few or many eons, merging with the multiverse, from where it will eventually coalesce into a new form, soulshaped or otherwise. And at each step, power can be siphoned off it.
Beings from the good aligned planes desire to protect and reward their souls, evil aligned ones desire to exploit them for their own ends. Lawfuls desire to uphold agreements, chaotics desire freedom.
The Obyriths desire alignment with this existence and need life energy for their shard-infused spawn. Devils desire power to stop them. Gods desire to continue existing and work towards their goals, whatever they may be. Everyone wants souls, except for primordials who just want things to occur naturally without everyone siphoning.
Behind it all, as the multiverse continually changes and evolves, so do the gods, their worshippers and the primordials. Primordials are rarely born anymore, as the amount of energy required to birth one rarely coalesces anymore. Too many mortals.
Of course there are few mortals in the elemental planes, and new elementals continually form as the expressions of local phenoment they are (Prime plane born elementals are rare, but they do exist, and in more forms than just fire/water/earth/air). Nor is the typical god an evolved primordial anymore, but more usual an ascended mortal. (See the tale of the Dark Three to get some idea of what that entails, if you don't already have a sponsor.)
Anyway, that's my two coppers.
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 26 Jun 2017 : 13:12:47
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I seem to recall reading, in some game source (I don't recall which one, or which game, even; it may have been the recent Pathfinder book about the First World), that it was the advent of death that changed everything. Originally, everything was immortal, but somehow, death got introduced into the picture -- and as soon as death was a thing, it changed matters for all living creatures.
So everything was immortal, and there was no need for deities to pay attention to souls. But then death happened, and suddenly there are all these souls wandering about... That changes the picture, entirely. |
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 26 Jun 2017 : 13:14:47
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Found these tidbits in the 4e FR PG:
"At the center of the universe lie the twin worlds of Abeir and Toril, slightly out of phase with each other. Both revolve around the same sun and both have a large lunar satellite, Selune, trailed a line of moonlets known as the Tears of Selune.
Toril is the body that folks refer to as "the world". In the aftermath of the Spellplague, it includes pockets of Returned Abeir that have replaced pockets of the old Toril. The planet's primary and "central" continent is Faerun." (page 154)
Looking thru past posts in this thread, I found this one -- and had a sudden thought:
If Toril is the center of the universe, why is it revolving around something else? Doesn't that, by definition, mean it's not at the center? |
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KanzenAU
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Posted - 26 Jun 2017 : 13:31:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Misereor
If gods require worship to exist, then it follows that species capable of worship must first have existed. Primordials on the other hand, are a type of manifestations of various phenomena in this reality. Stuff like earth and fire, but also life, storms, light, and darkness, achieving conciousness, desire, and power, so they likely existed first.
So why did worship change things?
I'm guessing it was because "souls" happened.
Take Light and Darkness, typically associated with Selune and Shar. Those two things must have existed before worship by mortals did, so they cannot have been gods at the time. On the other hand, they fit the role of natural natural phenomenon perfectly, i.e. primordials.
Achieving consciousness didn't just happen to primordials, it eventually happened to lesser beings as well, and the same power came with it (proportionally). I'm guessing some primordials found a way to tap into this power via worship, but in so doing became spiritually merged with their worshippers, and even dependent on them. This was tainted/impurity in the eyes of their fellow primordials, thus sowing the seeds of the Dawn War.
While I quite like what you've written here, I find it troublesome to reconcile with the few "facts" we do have about FR cosmology (although admittedly, these are usually presented as myth) regarding gods pre-existing humans and other races.
Ao, Selune, Shar, and Chauntea all precede sentient life on Abeir-Toril, and are all described as gods (or overgods), never primordials. While I quite like the idea of Selune and Shar ascending from a more primordial state, it doesn't really fit the lore - especially for what we know about Ao, who claims to be the creator of the gods. As presented, the lore seems to say these gods at least were around on Abeir-Toril before sentient life was.
I'd put out a couple of counter-possibilities:
1. The first gods did not rely on mortal faith, perhaps up until the destruction of the Lattice of Heaven
2. The first gods did arise out of mortal faith, but on other worlds. They then later travelled to Abeir-Toril
3. The creation myths are entirely incorrect, and life preceded Ao and the gods on Abeir-Toril
I'm inclined towards the first option myself, as Ao's position as creator of Realmspace and the gods feels firmly established to me.
Edit: Though "The Godborn" does tell a story of Shar having destroyed other worlds before coming to Abeir-Toril... so perhaps they were all born of mortal faith, but elsewhere in the universe... |
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Edited by - KanzenAU on 26 Jun 2017 13:34:11 |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
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763 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2017 : 13:35:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I seem to recall reading, in some game source (I don't recall which one, or which game, even; it may have been the recent Pathfinder book about the First World), that it was the advent of death that changed everything. Originally, everything was immortal, but somehow, death got introduced into the picture -- and as soon as death was a thing, it changed matters for all living creatures.
So everything was immortal, and there was no need for deities to pay attention to souls. But then death happened, and suddenly there are all these souls wandering about... That changes the picture, entirely.
I like this idea too. Perhaps that might be linked to the breaking of the Lattice of Heaven? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
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15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2017 : 15:50:49
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Yeah, that sounds an awful like what I've talked about in many threads, which is based on FR lore (although the lore never explicitly states that, it can be extrapolated from it by looking through all the various sources we have).
VERY Basic Timeline:
1) We have a 'One World' - Abeir-Toril. On this world the Creator Races arise.
2) Then we have a Godwar and a Sundering (one being the direct result of the other)
3) Probably the most major event to come out of the Godwar was the introduction of Death - a deity dies and the concept of Death is born
From this, we can see that the pre-Sundered world DID NOT have 'Death'. As I said, that is never clearly stated anywhere in FR lore, but from the above - based 100% on canon - we can see that that must have been the case. This also means - which is also never stated - is that the Creator Races themselves must have been immortal prior to the Godwar. Their 'offspring' (or 'Creations', if you prefer) would NOT have been immortal (thus why the Elves are actually flawed versions of Fey).
Mortality itself is a concept that only came into being after the separation of Abeir and Toril. What this also means is that modern humans aren't really the same thing as the original 'Mankind' race. Like the Elves, we would be but a pale reflection of those majestic immortals. And I'd like to think that some of them may still be floating around somewhere. in fact, the Gith race - which is supposed to be an offshoot of humanity - probably derived directly from those originals (which is interesting, in that the Gith have some sort of weird connection to time, because of their connection to the illithids, which have been hinted at as being 'outside of time', or at least, removed from their own time). The assumption has always been the illithids were from the end of time, but what if they were from the beginning? What if they subjugated some of those proto-humans, which became the Gith? What if they caused their own (future) demise by doing so? (Humans being the 'Race of Destiny' and all that). Maybe the Gith revolt destroyed the illithids, and some of them moved forward in time, past that point, in order to stop it from happening?
That would mean there could possibly some 'modern' version of illithids - the result of whatever happened to them that they are trying to stop - floating around somewhere. I would assume at the very least they would have lost their great mental abilities (and now I am picturing the Krakentua of K-T being something akin to devolved illithids, and them being in some sort of Atack on Titan mode, back when the Imaskari first discovered/imported them. |
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Jun 2017 15:54:50 |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
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Misereor
Learned Scribe
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Posted - 26 Jun 2017 : 17:32:03
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
I'd put out a couple of counter-possibilities:
1. The first gods did not rely on mortal faith, perhaps up until the destruction of the Lattice of Heaven <snip>
I'm inclined towards the first option myself, as Ao's position as creator of Realmspace and the gods feels firmly established to me.
Edit: Though "The Godborn" does tell a story of Shar having destroyed other worlds before coming to Abeir-Toril... so perhaps they were all born of mortal faith, but elsewhere in the universe...
1. would certainly fit with editions and the non-diminishing gods canon pre avatar-crisis, but I personally like to think both are true (how very White Wolf Publishing of me).
That gods were always dependent on faith, but the relationship became more linear post-avatar crisis with the decree of Ao. Ancient gods of the creator races going to sleep as their races declined would fit with that, but much more indirectly than "Cyric loses Zhentil Keep, and is immediately weakened enough to lose his death portfolio". (AARGH!)
Shar having destroyed other worlds or even universes before coming to Abeir-Toril makes perfect sense to me. I consider her to be a manifestation of oblivion. Her present form and shape are influenced by the faith of her worshippers, but at her core she is nothingness. Regardless what crystal sphere she happens to be present in (all of them).
Of course I also have a pet theory that the various gods of same portfolios were merely different manifestations of the same thing. Only reason they had different manifestations is because they had different worshippers.
For example Sarrukh god of magic = Mystryl = Mystra = Ariel Manx.
Sarrukh die out, and magic goes more primal for a while. Dragons and Giants influence the portfolio because they are predominant for a hwhile, but with the rise of humanity the major aspect of magic becomes Mystryl. Then the Netherese are mostly wiped out which causes enough of a disturbance that she becomes a different, but similar version of herself. Next upheaval is ToT where the manifestation is destroyed again, and reborn in yet another manifestation based on a human worshipper. (NB. The Netherese aversion to clerical magic could very well be because they knew something about how faith could influence beings, and not simply silly superstitions.)
Another example: Aumanator = Lathander = split Aumanator/Lathander.
The Aumantor manifestaion eventually perishes after the fall of Netheril, and eventually a new manifestation arises, based on the dominant concept of what a sun god should be like. Later there is a Aumanator renaissance and the faith is divided, resulting in the portfolio being divided among two manifestations of the same phenomena. (Just like primordials, just a bit more complicated.)
And finally a question.
What is The Godborn? Novel? Source book? Canon reference?
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Gary Dallison
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 26 Jun 2017 : 18:28:35
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Here's another thought, building on what I mentioned earlier, and another prior suggestion of mine...
So originally, everything was immortal. And then, from beyond reality, the Far Realm somehow injected itself into the D&D universe (The Gygaverse?). The powers of the D&DVerse managed to shove the Far Realm back out and close the breach in reality -- but the incursion had forever changed the nature of reality, and now death and disease were now a part of the new reality. Immortality still existed, but it was no longer the default state for beings on the Prime. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
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Posted - 26 Jun 2017 : 19:17:56
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Building on what both of you have said, I picture Mystara being a very early world created after the Godwar/Sundering - perhaps one of the very first Crystal Spheres (hence is nature being a little different). That world had Immortals, instead of 'gods', and that would fit nicely - at first there would be no deities, and the immortals left-over from the pre-Shattered First World (The 'Midgard') would have been venerated in their place. In fact, most for the earliest Crystal Spheres should have some of those immortals lurking about, and most of them would have attained true divine status since then (the 'first gods'?)
Now, if we toss my own homebrew lore into that - that 'Blackmoor' was actually the original kingdom of man(kind) - and that bits and pieces of that have wound up on several D&D worlds, those 'Blackmoorians' would be the original Creator-Race humans. They may have a fought a war - alongside or even against other Creatori - with the 'Forces of Chaos', which would have been the illithids (amongst other aberrations). And, as I pointed out in another thread today, that ties the proto-humans to the Gith race as well. Perhaps all/most Blackmoorians had some psionics, being that their culture was the earliest to have technology, which would also tie into the whole Gith/Illithid thing (not to mention 1e rules about 'wild talents' and psionics).
In fact, maybe thats what those first humans - the folk of Blackmoor - called themselves: The Gith. And there are almost none of the originals left (just like how there are no more true Gith left - the race has diverged into several sub-groups). Also, Dave Arneson's Blackmoor would then be placed on the First World (rather than ancient Mystara), which makes my inner child squeal with delight with the serendipitousness of it all. Dave and Gary (and their friends) literally played on the first (D&D) world, which was the basis for all that came after. Its almost poetic, don't you think? |
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Jun 2017 19:10:45 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2017 : 19:57:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Misereor
quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
I'd put out a couple of counter-possibilities:
1. The first gods did not rely on mortal faith, perhaps up until the destruction of the Lattice of Heaven <snip>
I'm inclined towards the first option myself, as Ao's position as creator of Realmspace and the gods feels firmly established to me.
Edit: Though "The Godborn" does tell a story of Shar having destroyed other worlds before coming to Abeir-Toril... so perhaps they were all born of mortal faith, but elsewhere in the universe...
1. would certainly fit with editions and the non-diminishing gods canon pre avatar-crisis, but I personally like to think both are true (how very White Wolf Publishing of me).
That gods were always dependent on faith, but the relationship became more linear post-avatar crisis with the decree of Ao. Ancient gods of the creator races going to sleep as their races declined would fit with that, but much more indirectly than "Cyric loses Zhentil Keep, and is immediately weakened enough to lose his death portfolio". (AARGH!)
The "ancient" gods, or the gods who created races, did not require worship to exist, since they existed before anyone was around to worship them. Of course, this doesn't mean they didn't want worship (thus one reason why they probably made various races). It is true that, to a degree, they have always been dependent on their followers, but worship wasn't a requirement until post-ToT. Also, loss of worshipers doesn't necessarily mean the true death of the deity, at least if they deity is multi-spheric. They might "die" on Toril, but their existence in other planes would go on, so long as they had worshipers there.
But it is true that the deities do depend on worship. Every deity wants followers, and since ToT, they have become more reliant on them. |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2017 : 23:59:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Misereor
And finally a question.
What is The Godborn? Novel? Source book? Canon reference?
The Godborn is the second novel in the Sundering series, and is written by Paul Kemp. It's canon, though people differ on how much credence they give the novels.
Here's a quote from Brennus Tanthul out of the novel (this view is also repeated by other characters).
quote:
Shar existed on many worlds, in many planes, and always her goal was the samethe annihilation of worlds. The process, The Cycle of Night, had run its course on many worlds, leaving voids in its wake, and had begun on Toril.
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Edited by - KanzenAU on 26 Jun 2017 23:59:55 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2017 : 00:26:04
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| @Misereor: as KanzenAU said, the Godborn is a novel in the Sundering series. Specifically, it's a follow-up to the Erevis Cale series. My suggestion is, if you haven't, read the Erevis Cale and Twilight Wars trilogies. |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2017 : 00:51:53
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| The Twilight Wars (which comes before Godborn) talks about Shar, at least, and the Return of the Archwizards trilogy is about the return of Shade, so it deals with Shar somewhat, if I remember correctly. |
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Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 28 Jun 2017 19:03:57 |
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Misereor
Learned Scribe
164 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2017 : 08:59:05
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
The "ancient" gods, or the gods who created races, did not require worship to exist, since they existed before anyone was around to worship them.
Then what was the difference between an ancient god and a primordial?
And what would an ancient god want worshippers for?
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Edited by - Misereor on 28 Jun 2017 08:59:31 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2017 : 12:46:18
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I guess when all comes down to it, the bottom line can best be said by the man himself...
quote:
Originally written by Ed Greenwood, posted by The Hooded One on 25th of February, 2011
The short answer to all of your questions, I'm afraid, is that "no one knows." Mortals in the Realms only know what priests, seers, sages, and various mad-wits tell them about matters cosmological, and as I've said before: even the gods lie.
We don't KNOW the origin of Ao or any of the "elder" gods, or what they did or didn't do or create. We have been TOLD some things, a few of them contradictory and none of them verified by any measure that doesn't involve (at some point) faith.
What's more, wise mortals have long ago realized that they can never know the truth. That is, they have no way of learning more except by trusting a tale told by someone, at some point.
To underline this:
There are sages of Faerūn who believe that the Inner and Outer Planes were around long before any of the gods (and uber-beings, like Ao) we have heard of.
There are Faerūnian scholars of matters divine who believe Shar is a relatively "young" or recent deity, and much of what is now said of her "dawn doings" are more or less flattering falsehoods put about by her priests to make her seem more powerful, or somehow "essential."
There are sages of Faerūn who believe that all deities create stars or moons or other celestial bodies, because they define godhood as the enacted ability to successfully carry off such creations (working alone). There are other sages who dismiss this notion as pure fantasy, and assert divinity has nothing (necessarily) to do with such activities at all.
Similar disputes mar almost every tale of the deeds of gods, particularly when interacting with other gods. The priests of Lathander see this event far differently than the clergy of Shar do, while the priests of Umberlee offer as "gospel truth" a tale about a particular storm that contradicts entirely a similar "gospel truth" tale told by the clergy of Talos . . . and so on, for literally hundreds of instances.
So we simply don't know.
Though I still think it's worth having these discussions to see how different people here interpret the gods and such, to help give more substance to our home games.
I'm still working on my own interpretation of FR's cosmology, and since remembering that stuff in The Godborn I'm now more inclined to think that "Shar" may be a local reflection of that annihilating cosmic force spoken of, but when it approaches they reunite. Perhaps Selune and Shar are both local reflections of universal Creation/Annihilation forces. These cosmic entities exist in the very fabric of the multiverse, and on Abeir-Toril they happen to coalesce as gods. Because Ao? Because Abeir-Toril has some special significance? Still more thought is required... |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
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2708 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2017 : 16:14:10
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| Also, the sourcebooks and some of the novels do give us "food for thought" that allow us to develop certain theories. Unknowable or not, we have been given at least some teasing information that allows us to have these discussions. We'very been given info about the gods, and the Outer Planes. If there were nothing, we probably wouldn't be able to have as in-depth convos as we currently do. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2017 : 17:23:29
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Also, the sourcebooks and some of the novels do give us "food for thought" that allow us to develop certain theories. Unknowable or not, we have been given at least some teasing information that allows us to have these discussions. We'very been given info about the gods, and the Outer Planes. If there were nothing, we probably wouldn't be able to have as in-depth convos as we currently do.
Indeed. It's like the Dawn Cataclysm: they won't pin down a date and prefer to say it happened outside of time -- but then give us enough info for a pretty specific time frame for it.
I know that definitive uncertainty about things was something Ed intended to have baked into the setting -- but a lot of designers/authors since didn't get that memo, and I personally find the "it's uncertain!" stance doesn't work well with all the documentation we've been given since.
Call it the Greenwood Uncertainty Principle -- it's unfathomable and unknowable, until WotC gets a hold of it. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
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Posted - 28 Jun 2017 : 19:06:30
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In one scene of the Everis Cale trilogy, the protagonists travel to the Plane of Shadows (which would now be the Shadowefell), and come across the 'Fane of Shadows' (IIRC), which is some sort of shrine to multiple shadow-gods, in the form of large statues. Its never stated if the others are from off-world (but one might assume at least a few were), and the only one actually mentioned to be 'recognizable' as another FR deity is Mask. Now, some might be from other regions of Toril, including some of the unnamed landmasses, but there were quite a few of them, IIRC.
The biggest 'reveal' of that scene is that Shar's statue towered over them all, and its hinted-at that the size of the statue may represent a level of power.
Thus, if that 'field of statues' was multi-spheric - and there's no reason to think its not, considering its in a transitive plane that connects to all others - than apparently Shar IS THE GOD of 'Shadows'. She could possibly be likened to Asmodeus; as he is to hell, she is to the Shadowfell.
Conjecture of course, based on the musings of the characters, which may or may not be 'the truth' (since we are dealing with gods of obfuscation and lying).
EDIT:
Further conjecture/theory:
IF all planes/spheres have their own Overpower (what I have termed in the past as a 'Spheric Guardian'), then perhaps Shar is the Overgod of the Shadowfell. What that would mean is that whereas Ao reigns supreme in Toril's Crystal Sphere, Shar would out-rank him in the Plane of Shadows.
In theory. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Jun 2017 19:13:52 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2017 : 19:13:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Misereor
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
The "ancient" gods, or the gods who created races, did not require worship to exist, since they existed before anyone was around to worship them.
Then what was the difference between an ancient god and a primordial?
And what would an ancient god want worshippers for?
By ancient god, I meant those who existed before their worshipers. Some were the gods of the "creator races". Because of this, they existed before the worship of their followers, so they didn't need followers to exist. That said, perhaps by some unknown law/force of the universe, the creation of followers would increase their power, though again, before the ToT, worship wasn't mandatory for a deity's existence.
As for the difference between primordials and ancient gods, I'll admit I haven't studied the primordials as much, but I would say primordials are more "primal". Not less intelligent, but their motives/desires/nature is different (though some have made the crossover, like Akadi). |
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Cosmology Theories
