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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Sep 2016 : 15:37:39
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The statement about gods just being more powerful sounds much more like Netherese than Shoon (who had a intricate back and forth relationship to gods). It also sounds very much like Imaskari.
So hows this for a thought, if you want to go that way. That spellbook he found was Imaskarcana - which was also found in Netheril by ____ fill in the blank with various archwizards and that imparts dark power/knowledge. Presumably this would be Manshoon's "Master Spellbook" that has been mentioned on several occasions. Perhaps this does not mean Primary but rather suggests a servitude, as in: the spellbook is Manshoon's master.
That's not really my take on Manshoon, which is he's just a villain who is cool enough without more bells and whistles like being the descendant/embodiment of someone else cool.
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2016 : 04:05:10
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
It sounds to me that the distinction between Chosen and Demigods was lost somewhere, and it is not very difficult to understand.
Chosen (of Mystra) are powerful and effectively immortal. The power of other Chosen depends upon how much power the god instills in them. They are not gods.
Gods are beings that have worshipers, and draw upon that arrangement for their power. This includes demigods. Why was Joel so important? Because Finder needed worshipers.
The old term for "gods" that had no worshipers was quasi-deity (this is from back in 1st ed): basically they could become demigods if they managed to get worshipers but haven't or don't want to.
I don't think Chosen even rise to that level of power, because their power is not their own - it is a gift from a god.
I recommend everyone do everything they can to forget the terrible mess made of Gods in 4th edition - including the Exarchs - which included everyone from Chosen to Intermediate level gods in one big ugly unmeasurable group of stupidity that did not reflect the realms pantheons well at all.
This was my understanding. Basically Quasi deities < Demigods. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2016 : 06:16:21
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'Exarch' was a level of power, and does not reflect whether a being has worshipers or not.
Chosen, Demigods, Quasi-deities, Arch-friend/Celestial, etc (I think beast Lords and Uber fey were lumped in there as well) are all Exarchs. The other titles denote their 'standing' and abilities, within a pantheon (or not).
And in one novel, Elminster 'summoned' a lesser goddess (Eldath, IIRC). I guess being a 'Chosen' of a Greater(+) power, you get to 'pull rank' even on gods.
But at the end of the day, I chalk all of this up to 'beyond mortal comprehension'. We are looking at these beings two, perhaps three, dimensionally, when there are facets to them we can't even begin to understand (including their hierarchy/relationships to each other).
Even in the mortal world, we have all different ways of measuring 'power'. You could probably easily find a Private who could beat-up a General, but he wouldn't... not without severe repercussions. The general is 'more powerful' in a totally different way than strength. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2016 : 13:57:32
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
The statement about gods just being more powerful sounds much more like Netherese than Shoon (who had a intricate back and forth relationship to gods). It also sounds very much like Imaskari.
So hows this for a thought, if you want to go that way. That spellbook he found was Imaskarcana - which was also found in Netheril by ____ fill in the blank with various archwizards and that imparts dark power/knowledge. Presumably this would be Manshoon's "Master Spellbook" that has been mentioned on several occasions. Perhaps this does not mean Primary but rather suggests a servitude, as in: the spellbook is Manshoon's master.
That's not really my take on Manshoon, which is he's just a villain who is cool enough without more bells and whistles like being the descendant/embodiment of someone else cool.
Thank you, that sounds great. For me it could be a phylactery of Shoon emperor and reason why each time Manshoon was killed his clone immidiately came for this book by force. Master spellbook twist :-D |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2016 : 14:23:12
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The biggest problem with it being Shoon, is there were only a couple Wizard Qyzars and they don't really fit the picture - so I'd say there are only 3 options:
Shoon IV - the first Necroqysar, he attempted to become a lich and failed so could be possible; however, his methods are much to direct and bold to mirror Manshoon. Manshoon is not bold but calculating so its not a good fit. Also, he's not a necromancer - which would seem to be what he would be if he was possessed by a necromancer.
Shoon VI - a wizard qysar, who I think would be your best fit. He returned to the Empire a powerful wizard... could be he found this book and it made him what he was, until he was assassinated that is. So the book would not be his "phylactery" but someone who predates him. Was the source of his power as well as Manshoon's - again perhaps Imaskarkana.
Shoon VII - THE Necroqysar - doesn't work because 1) another necromancer and 2) cannon has him as a demilich in a different book and a different plot line :P |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2016 : 16:33:27
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| lol - wow - I didn't understand why you wanted him to be Shoon until Dazz pointed out the name :P - I'm very quick witted, I swear! :P |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2016 : 18:59:00
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Really? 
LOL!
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
The statement about gods just being more powerful sounds much more like Netherese than Shoon (who had a intricate back and forth relationship to gods). It also sounds very much like Imaskari.
So hows this for a thought, if you want to go that way. That spellbook he found was Imaskarcana - which was also found in Netheril by ____ fill in the blank with various archwizards and that imparts dark power/knowledge. Presumably this would be Manshoon's "Master Spellbook" that has been mentioned on several occasions. Perhaps this does not mean Primary but rather suggests a servitude, as in: the spellbook is Manshoon's master.
That's not really my take on Manshoon, which is he's just a villain who is cool enough without more bells and whistles like being the descendant/embodiment of someone else cool.
Thank you, that sounds great. For me it could be a phylactery of Shoon emperor and reason why each time Manshoon was killed his clone immidiately came for this book by force. Master spellbook twist :-D
I read this whole thing and was like -
Person A: I want him connected to Shoon!
Person B: Well, I feel it makes more sense to do this, this, & this...
Person B: Thats great! Now I can connect him to Shoon!
I LOVE unintended comedy. 
I like everything 'mysterious', BTW, like how it was in 1e and early 2e. late 2e and 3e DEFINED too many of these mysteries, taking a lot of the tools out of the DMs hands. GREAT for setting-fans, not so great for people trying to run an RPG. It also inadvertently tied the hands of future designers, because it created way too many 'facts' that now had to be woven into everything (which didn't prove possible, so they just ignored a lot, which lead to the downfall of the setting/fanbase, IMO).
Not really a rant (at this point), just an observation. I don't ever want to know Manshoon's 'real past', because that would be one less thing we can have these interesting threads about.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Sep 2016 04:14:58 |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2016 : 21:56:10
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Yeah it sounds funny if you put it like that. I just nitpicked what suited me and it was a great idea.
As for "mysterious" things I do like the current state of Realms in that we could debate most of those mysteries left as we want because they will not be officialy released (probably never). One bonus of revealed lore is that we can all agree on that as base line. Lot of theories here are problematic to discuss because they are already build upon previous presumptions of the person writing it. As a gameamaster I like most possible amount of lore released/solved because then I can use them well in my game. If I do not know the actual mover behind some action how can my players find out? For me personaly it is a great fun to unravel those lore gems out there and for Realms it feels like peeling an onion for years now. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2016 : 04:19:01
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You NEVER have to explain yourself, dude - I just found it funny, is all. We all do cr@p like that, all the time.
Its your Realms - you do whatever you want with it. If 4e can be 'congratulated' for anything, it was the fact that we hard-core fans now have a complete disconnect with what canon is, or needs to be. I guess sometimes you have to kill something to set it free.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe
USA
297 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2016 : 01:51:03
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| Is not the first meeting between Elminster and Manshoon in the story: So High A Price in Realms of Infamy? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2016 : 03:10:42
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Just re-read it.
I don't know if you can count that, for two reasons. First, Manshoon didn't know that was Elminster, so I would hardly call that a 'meeting' between the two. Second, we do not know if Manshoon had actually met the real Elminster at an earlier date; Elminster seemed to know of Manshoon (which may or may not indicate an actual, face-to-face meeting).
RW, It does count as the first published 'meeting' of the two, in that it is the earliest (FR timeline-wise) that we, the fans, are aware of. Its also where we find out why the Old Mage never kills Manshoon (even when he really should).
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2016 : 06:04:43
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| For those who don't immediately see the connection - more information about this bargain is given in DDGttUD. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2018 : 04:42:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Well, even Mystra's chosen tip-toed around Larloch, and Chosen ARE demi-gods (what was that nifty 4e parlance for that divine 'tier'?)*
And there is the theory that he is an ex-Chosen (perhaps of Mystryl), so who knows what sort of status that might mean.
On the other hand, Undead can't BE deities... but a couple of them have already broken that rule.
*EDIT: Exarch, wasn't it?
Ed confirmed that Larloch's a Chosen of Mystryl a couple years ago. And yes, they used Exarch in 4e.
Can you point me to this? |
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AJA
Senior Scribe
USA
747 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2018 : 01:40:37
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Can you point me to this?
Self-proclaimed in the novel The Herald apparently (I haven't read):
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One, 03 Jul 2014, Ask Ed '14
Oh, and one more thing. I'm glad you used the phrase "claimed to be the last chosen of Mystryl," because Ed did caution me that we have only Larloch's word that he is
Confirmed few months later:
quote:
Originally posted by Ed Greenwood, 17 Sep 2014, Forging The Realms: After the Fall
So Telamont Tanthul, an undeniably arrogant and overconfident ruler used to having his will backed by many arcanists of skill and power, came up against a Chosen of Mystryl, Larloch
http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/after-fall
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AJA
YAFRP
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Edited by - AJA on 14 Jun 2018 01:42:51 |
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Thraskir Skimper
Learned Scribe
204 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2018 : 01:41:55
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I have a Magic Item that was found in Thay and resulted is several changes and might explain your Manshoon dilemma.
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Thay Red |
Edited by - Thraskir Skimper on 14 Jun 2018 01:43:52 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2018 : 12:36:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
(...) About 2 or 3 years ago, I asked Ed about an NPC that saw nothing more than 1 or 2 lines of text in a 1990's product. He said the NPC was still under an NDA, but we should get more info in May.
(...)
You surely misunderstood him, he probably said "the character is under an NDA and I MAY give you some info as soon as I can"... 
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"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 14 Jun 2018 12:39:02 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2018 : 12:38:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
(...)
Chosen, Demigods, Quasi-deities, Arch-friend/Celestial, etc (I think beast Lords and Uber fey were lumped in there as well) are all Exarchs.
(...)
I'd like to have an Exarch as my arch-friend! |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2018 : 19:00:39
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Arch-friend... hmmm instantly brings to mind the image of caryatid columns from the old 2nd Ed. Monstrous Manual:
http://www.lomion.de/cmm/golem.php
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Elminster's first encounter with Manshoon
