| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
jornan
Learned Scribe
Canada
256 Posts |
 Posted - 24 May 2016 : 21:16:09
|
I was listening to a Captain America Civil War review on Kevin Smith's "Fatman on Batman" Podcast today and Kevin Smith said something about the MCU that resonated with me about the current state of the Forgotten Realms.
He basically talked about how each movie builds upon the last, some with greater importance than others. But in general; world building and the more you have watched, the more you will get out of each movie and pick up on the easter eggs and "share" in the collective understanding of what is happening and how all the pieces fit together. He loves it and evidently the average movie goer does too as it is not uncommon now for MCU movies to break the 1 Billion dollar mark!
This collective cohesiveness, the feeling of a living world is what drew so many people to the realms in the 90's and early 2000's and while Marvel has figured this out and is building it now, WotC got it all wrong. WotC wanted it to be more accessible to the average person, but they didn't take into account the fan base that was already there, the fan base that was invested in the stories of all the people and places of the Realms.
Marvel makes two kinds of movies. Ones that a viewer can step into whom has never seen a Marvel movie before and it gets them hooked and interested enough that they go back and watch what has come before and catch up so that they can be a part of the other movies, the Greater MCU movies, like The Avengers or the latest Captain America movie. This builds a consumer base for not only future movies, but the entire back catalogue as well. This is a winning formula, basically giving them a license to print money.
WotC messed this up so badly with the Spellplague and everything that followed....sort of reminds me of what DC/WB does with their attempts at a shared universe. Make poor decisions and then reboot so many times that its so much more difficult to invest in caring about any particular movie as its effects don't really matter in a grander theme.
Obviously this isn't news, but it just had me thinking about the comparison between how the two properties have been handled in the past 10 years or so.
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2016 : 21:28:05
|
As much as I hate to defend WotC, part of the intent of the Spellplague was to make the setting more accessible, and to negate the need to scour through twenty years of collected material... And to give them proper credit, they succeeded at that one.
The two mistakes they made, as I see it, was that they didn't consider the flavor of the setting, and that they then failed to follow up and really develop on what they had done. The current trickle of novels and source material indicates this trend will continue, at least in the short term.
I really have to wonder what's going on with WotC, right now. I'm rather against pointlessly bashing them, but at the same time, I can't understand how they intend to stay afloat without selling anything. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
 |
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2016 : 21:42:54
|
| From what I've understood, they want to make money through the ''brand''. They want merchandise, and minis and VGs and gadgets and stuff like that. Sourcebooks and novels seem to not be profitable enough for them. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
|
|
|
jornan
Learned Scribe
Canada
256 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2016 : 22:15:37
|
| My post wasn't intended as a bashing of WotC as I completely understand what they were trying to accomplish in terms of accessibility. I'm just saying Marvel has taken the same concept of shared world and made it work to their benefit. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2016 : 22:22:46
|
quote:
Originally posted by jornan
My post wasn't intended as a bashing of WotC as I completely understand what they were trying to accomplish in terms of accessibility.
Oh, I know... I was referring to my own comment of not understanding what they're doing, and making it clear that it wasn't a bash. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2016 : 01:14:49
|
| The question is can Marvel continue their storyline for 30 years straight without having some kind of reboot OR severe canon issues of what happened across all their various intellectual properties. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2016 : 02:00:42
|
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
The question is can Marvel continue their storyline for 30 years straight without having some kind of reboot OR severe canon issues of what happened across all their various intellectual properties.
Considering that the MCU and the comics are, so far as I know, separate continuities, that will help.
Also, with the MCU, Marvel isn't having to blow up the moon twice a month to maintain interest. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Rymac
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2016 : 02:28:37
|
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
The question is can Marvel continue their storyline for 30 years straight without having some kind of reboot OR severe canon issues of what happened across all their various intellectual properties.
The official MCU, probably not. And if the indication that a deal was reached with Sony to include Spider-Man in the official MCU, Fox and other studios (I'm looking at Universal for more stand-alone Hulk movies) will eventually come to their senses to bargain with Marvel so they can include the Fantastic Four and X-Men in the MCU. The MCU is OBVIOUSLY where the money is at.
And to bring it back around to D&D and the Forgotten Realms, one hopes that WotC figures out a way to keep both new players and the older, seasoned gamers satisfied. Relying on independent designers via the DM's Guild is a stop-gap, not a long-term strategy. |
- Ryan |
|
|
|
Caolin
Senior Scribe
768 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2016 : 03:54:46
|
I don't think Dungeons and Dragons could ever be turned into something like the MCU. Fantasy is just way too hard to develop into a live action setting and make it appeal to a mass audience. Now before you bring up Game of Thrones, let me point out that GoT plays more like a historical drama than fantasy. One could even argue that once the fantasy elements started being introduced, GoT started to decline in quality.
Now with that being said, DnD and the Realms is in the hands of one of the most incompetent media companies I have ever seen. WoTC is always behind on every innovation (digital distribution, mobile games, etc) and they terribly mismanage almost all of their IP. They essentially have been riding the Magic train since the mid-90's. They have developed ZERO successful IP since. There only other successes have come through acquisitions of already popular IP.
But to be fair, I think we can actually lay a lot of blame for WoTC's mediocrity on Hasbro which acquired WoTC not long after 3E was released. Hasbro has done what all other huge conglomerates do to artistic IPs, they suck them dry and wipe away any and all soul. Sigh.
Sorry for the rant, but I just get so depressed over the decline of the Realms. |
|
|
|
jornan
Learned Scribe
Canada
256 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2016 : 04:25:36
|
I think the MCU can support the continuity for a very long time, especially if they continue to expand and dig deeper into secondary characters and strike deals with other studios (fox, Universal). Furthermore, as long as another actor/character takes over the mantle of certain superheroes, they can continue for a very long time.
The comparison between the MCU and FR was more about how new fans are onboarded without negating from the enjoyment and rewards for fans who have been present from the beginning. This is where Marvel has done a fantastic job, and I just wish someone with that same sense had been working at WotC when Hasbro purchased the property.
As for a FR cinematic universe....I would love it if it was done right, but I just know it won't so I would rather it just stay in the realm of books and VG for now. Maybe in 20 years... |
|
|
|
Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2016 : 08:44:08
|
They can't even geht continuity into their novels while only releasing 4 of them per year.
And between their novels and adventures it's just AS worse |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2016 : 12:11:36
|
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
They essentially have been riding the Magic train since the mid-90's. They have developed ZERO successful IP since. There only other successes have come through acquisitions of already popular IP.
But to be fair, I think we can actually lay a lot of blame for WoTC's mediocrity on Hasbro which acquired WoTC not long after 3E was released. Hasbro has done what all other huge conglomerates do to artistic IPs, they suck them dry and wipe away any and all soul. Sigh.
Sorry for the rant, but I just get so depressed over the decline of the Realms.
3e/3.5e saw a resurgence like I've never seen of players coming back to the game, and that was WotC. It was 4e that tanked. However, with 5e I can honestly say I'm seeing with my own eyes MANY young players taking up the torch. I've worn order of the stick t-shirts into restaurants, to Disney, etc... and anytime I wear one in public, some player in the backgrounds announces themselves to me and usually says they're trying 5e. If they'd produce something besides modules, people would buy. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Adhriva
Learned Scribe
USA
147 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2016 : 13:08:11
|
I don't think we'll see WotC publishing a heavy amount of sourcebooks like was the case with 3/3.5. There was a big problem with piracy affecting sales around the end of 3.5's run, which lead to the DDI (D&D Insider) being an important part of disseminating the material to the fans through a subscription service. I don't think that mentality has changed with 5e (the release of the basic rules for free was to not only engage new players, but to continue their efforts of protecting their investment). How we as individuals feel about it is irrelevant (don't go there), but from WotC/Hasbro's point of view, it still effects their marketing and production mentality a great deal - especially when it comes to risks of digital titles. This is likely an influence that will stick around for the long term, or atleast the foreseeable future.
As far as continuity goes, WotC has no fiction department or on-staff editors. What editors they use for their novels today are freelancers to the best of my understanding - which means they likely have very limited exposure to Realmslore, if any, beyond the book they're aiding an author on. Even the adventure paths and modules are commissioned from smaller game studies, making them freelance/work-for-hire products and has the continuity that comes from projects made in more isolated development from other material. |
Professional illustrator and comic book artist.
Portfolio |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2016 : 14:45:32
|
I'm honestly very skeptical that piracy really had that much of an impact. I'll not argue that piracy does impact various forms of media, but it is my opinion that the impact is dramatically overstated and is often used as a convenient scapegoat for falling sales when other issues are more frequently the cause. Why think that you're overcharging and/or offering poor content when it's easier to claim piracy is the issue? (Note: this is not directed at WotC in particular)
I don't have data to back this up, and because it is opinion, I'm not going to argue it... I just know that I've seen companies scream about piracy in other media when there have been a host of other reasons people weren't rushing to give them money.
I'll also note that I've been dubious about WotC's claims of piracy in particular, since they claimed piracy of then-new 4E material was their reason for removing all digital content -- including that which was free, or content that was long out of print and for which the only revenue possible was legal pdf sales. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Adhriva
Learned Scribe
USA
147 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2016 : 15:15:26
|
| Factually, that might very well be true but what is factually accurate is irrelevant in this case. wotC/Hasbro believes it to be true, and the framework they are interacting with to compute their decisions is built upon that belief. Those other reasons are quite possibly blindspots (nobody likes to think a product they made and worked on sucks, even internally within a company, for whatever the reasons a product may), and because of that, the company is highly unlikely to factor them in - making them sadly irrelevant to the process of deciding what direction to go in. The fact they want to potentially republish material from the DMG is evidence those other factors have little to no bearing in their decision making process. |
Professional illustrator and comic book artist.
Portfolio |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2016 : 04:21:48
|
| given what I've seen with young people and pathfinder, it may very well be true. Most of the 20-somethings I've seen were playing using PDF copies of the pathfinder core rulebook and never bought it, whereas the older people bought the rulebooks. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Clegane
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2016 : 16:48:41
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
As much as I hate to defend WotC, part of the intent of the Spellplague was to make the setting more accessible, and to negate the need to scour through twenty years of collected material... And to give them proper credit, they succeeded at that one.
The two mistakes they made, as I see it, was that they didn't consider the flavor of the setting, and that they then failed to follow up and really develop on what they had done. The current trickle of novels and source material indicates this trend will continue, at least in the short term.
I really have to wonder what's going on with WotC, right now. I'm rather against pointlessly bashing them, but at the same time, I can't understand how they intend to stay afloat without selling anything.
I have to disagree on that point. The FR felt real because much of what existed pre-spellplague was grounded in people, places, and events that had been percolating in Ed Greenwood's head since he was a kid and had the weight of decades of writing, worldbuilding, and gaming to flesh it all out.
What came after was a plot contrivance to avoid dealing with continuity. Continuity is what makes fantasy real, a reason why 300 million copies of the LotR and the Hobbit have sold.
At least for me that is how it feels. I simply cannot connect to the "new" Realms. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2016 : 18:31:44
|
I'm not really sure what you're disagreeing with. I said they neglected to adhere to the original feel, and I said they succeeded at resetting to a point where prior knowledge was not needed to know what was going on.
Yes, the setting was built on continuity, but with the timejump, they moved it to a point far enough down the line that people could jump in without prior exposure, and not get lost.
I certainly didn't say I agreed with this maneuver or that I thought they did a good job -- just that they succeeded at resetting the setting. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
Forgetten Realms, WotC and the MCU
