| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
sw1989
Acolyte
39 Posts |
 Posted - 20 May 2016 : 16:49:01
|
Hello together,
I'm new to the forum and I have a question about Eilistraee's followers' origins as well as their motivation. The background is, that in our 5e home campaign realms, influenced from 3e and 4e campaigns, Eilistraee is revived but constantly on the brink of death due to having dangerously few worshippers. I want to introduce a group to reinvigorate her faith in a future campaign, but there are a number of problems, which are the reasons, why she is so irrelevant currently.
I apology from the beginning, not only for this post becoming long but also because I personally like the character of Eilistraee, which might show in this post and make it hard to read, and there's also personal opinion.
As the title says I want to know about Eilistraee's followers origins and their motivation. I will detail below, what these are and seek answers how the canon Forgotten Realms handle these or interpretation of canon information, that could help me. I will start with the origin and then with the motivation problem:
In 5e Eilistraee came back and her followers have retaken their faith, where do these followers come from?
Near the end of the Lady Penitent series, Eilistraee changed every drow followers of hers back into dark elves and by the end of the series she died. It is safe to assume, that those who were in the Underdark at that time got killed by drow or else. Those lucky enough to reach the surface were also likely killed by large number, after all people in the realms are stated to have problems keeping orcs from half-orcs and also from goblins apart, so having black or brown skin is surely no difference for those people and will likely attack. So the number of former Eilistraee-followers were cut down and only exist in meaningful numbers o the surface in the City of Hope, making it unrealistic for her faith to spread into the Underdark, because there are simply no drow worshippers of hers, who could go more or less safely to the Underdark to spread her faith.
So the situation is few former non-drow worshippers on the surface, no former drow worshippers in the Underdark.
How has she gained drow followers is my question here.
Now to the motivation part. These are actually the bigger problems, because if these aren't answered it's difficult to make believable NPCs.
1. What has Eilistraee to offer her followers?
The dark elves in the City of Hope lived more than 100 years without Eilistraee. During that time, they have surely taken other faiths, and elven faiths makes Eilistraee on many levels redundant.
Swordwork? Corellon is a god of war and warriors. Dance, song, beauty? Corellon is the god of music, poetry and art in general and Hanali of artists. Hunting? Solonor is the god of hunting and also the one of more sensible hunting tools than swords, the bow. Moonlight? Sehanine is the deity of the entier moon.
Added to this, it's not very clear to me, why any male elf would want to join her. Eilistraee is goddess who sanctions rituals, that allow her priestesses to strike men "blind, deaf and dumb" (War of the Spider Queen IV Kindle Position 3555-3562), who do so much as look at them. From where does an elven or any man take the motivation to choose her to become a life long disrespected second class follower over being a respected equal member following the Seldarine?
2. Her attitude towards her followers
In supplements Eilistraee is advertised as a goddess who gives the drow love and respect. Apart from sexism, the Lady Penitent series show, that she is someone who has no qualms using her followers as gambling chips. In the end of the series, the drow were changed by Eilistraee, who has not seen it fit to ask for their consent or hasn't even made efforts to inform her following on a meaningful scale (I think, there was only one drow, who knew about the change before it happened).
This is a personal opinion but I find it hard to believe someone, who conducts non consensual body modification, loves you as you are or even respects you. How is the logic behind it?
3. Redemption
This is a smaller problem, for it is religious dogma and can be hand waved with "because she says so", but I'm curious. Her faith is based on the idea, that the drow need to be redeemed because they have committed the sin of betraying the Seldarine. No living drow had a hand in this betrayal, still she hold them responsible for it. Why should a drow able to accept this, besides simply being an apologetic?
4. Incompetence
This is completely personal impression. Eilistraee striked me as a very ineffective deity.
On personal level, she had Qilué who to my knowledge was a rolemodel believer, but unlike Drizzt, was never able to walk the streets of a human city undisguised in broad daylight. This despite having the support of two goddesses, the remaining chosen of Mystra, Harpers, a religious organization, huge personal magical power and 600+ years of time. The remaining followers also seemed to have been more in hiding, than doing anything to effect change.
On organization level, unlike her brother, whose clerics led/influenced, several rather shady organizations (Dark Daggers, Masked Brigade, etc.) to accomplish their goal, Eilistraee only had the Promenade, which seemed to have acted more like a hiding spot, than a headquarter for operations. During 3e, I made the Promenade live on subsidies from the Harpers and other benefactors, because it was so unclear how they get an income with the next city being a den of crime like Skullport or what they can do to get money.
What should have changed to make her faith attractive to former as well as new followers?
Thank you for reading so far and also for answering in advance. And I'm sorry for the length, as well as the possibly bad writing style.
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2016 : 17:22:00
|
There are reasons a lot of people have issues with the Lady Penitent trilogy, and the fact that Eilistraee's behavior doesn't always match her previous write-ups and descriptions is one of those reasons.
Keep in mind that part of the point of those books was simply to get rid of all drow deities that weren't Lolth. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
 |
|
|
sw1989
Acolyte
39 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2016 : 18:04:05
|
Thank you for replying and reading through the post.
May I ask, whether some source which tries to answer these questions exists? I'd love to know at the very least the answer to the question where all these followers appeared, after all they couldn't have just grown from the ground?
Also with the motivation issue. Are former priestesses who lost their powers with Eilistraee's death and lacked any other kind of abilities to justify keeping influence believable stock for followers? Like trying to empower themselves again after having not fared as well as they hoped in the last century?
I would have never thought, that bringing back dead gods is this difficult.
Thank you answering in advance |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2016 : 18:04:35
|
I suggest you to take a look at Ed Greenwood's take on the events in the Lady Penitent books: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19841&whichpage=22#476639 She is also known to have personally manifested to her people and that it made many rejoyce and spread the news.
In light of that, I've written a possible explanation for Eilistraee's followers in 5e. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B47oo6p9LYh7aW1SUHI5aEkzR3c/view?usp=sharing
Also, the books say that only hundreds of drow were transformed (i.e less than 1k overall, and Eilistraee's followers are more than that (according to Ed, they are about 20% of the whole race), then it means that not all were transformed. (EDIT nvm, it says hundreds of thousands... Idk why I thought otherwise. Although that's only what that solar says. And looking at the rest of their words, he seems to be just spewing BS)
I don't think that many drow went to Rhymanthiin, mostly because that city was know to very few people, so it's hard to think that a lot of Eilistraeeans decided to go there (even if they knew about it, why would they be compelled to leave their homes, face a long ass travel through a monster infested land, for that?).
That said, lets go over the motivations.
1)You don't have to look at her portfolio, to find what Eilistraee has to offer to her followers. Eilistraee has a deep bond with her people, although it is often underplayed. It starts with her history. She is the goddess who chose renounce to a life of comfort in Arvandor to follow her people and be there for them in the time of need. The goddess who chose to be *one of them* (that matters a lot, with drow), and to share their fate just to offer them a new hope, when basically everyone else (except her brother) didn't care and/or shunned them. Eilistraee has been since then fighting to give the drow a new life Her power is little, and many are the hardships that she has faced (and still faces), but she has never abandoned her people.
Eilistraee sings to the hearts of all her people, making them feel the kindness and love, the joy and freedom that have been taken from them, and sending dreams and visions to lure them into her embrace. At some point in their life, all of them come to feel the call of the Dark Maiden, to know her and feel her caring for them--even if many fail to understand her message, find it troubling, or reject it. However, many drow secretly (or even unknowingly) yearn for Eilistraee and all that she symbolizes, although not many actually take steps to abandon Lolth for her.
Eilistraee is a mother to the whole drow race, but also a protectress. She works to help the dark elves flourish in a world that has become hostile and foreign to them, but that is their rightful home. The goddess watches over her faithful, and through her priestesses she teaches them how to survive on the surface, aiding them in hunting and swordwork. The Dark Maiden enjoys to directly help her people in small practical ways, like scaring off aggressors, sending visions warning of danger, or leading a stag within the reach of a hungry drow. She often provides dancing beams of moonlight that move about guiding those who are lost in the dark and leading them to safety, or to lighten childbirths. She is also known to often appear when her children need confort and her visible support in difficult moments (or to welcome a new drow to ''join her dance''). It usually happens through her own Moonfire, or as a protecting, shadowy, tall female dark elf that dances with the drow.
In short, all drow feel Eilistraee, she calls to them, acts like a mother to them, shows and offers them the joy that they have been denied, and helps them in embracing a new life. She actively cares about them: that, and her ideals, are what she has to offer.
And dance, joy and those kind of things play a singularly important role in her mission. That's because kindness, and fully, freely embracing the beauty that the world has to offer, are things that most drow have been denied (or corrupted with bitter conflict, present in every aspect of their society), but that can resonate with them. Many unconsciously feel the need to rediscover such joys, are drawn to them, and they are a way to lure the drow to a life that they have forgotten, away from the cruelty of Lolth. For example, there are many Lolthite drow who would rather stop to watch the Eilistraeean ritual of dancing under the moonlight than disrupt it (if they can without repercussions), or who would choose to not report Eilistraeean activity (if they know to get away with it).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eilistraee's ideals, which are also one of the reasons why people choose to follow deities, are also beautiful. From the FRWiki.
On helping others
Aid and protect all folks in need, of any race, weak and strong, kind or rude, promoting harmony and acceptance among all races. Lend your help to all those who fight for good whenever there are ways to do so. When not fighting evil, be always kind--even to those who show rudeness--and aid others in acts of kindness.
Strangers are your friends. Hungry travelers are to be fed and the homeless are to be given shelter--under your own roof if needed--. When traveling and while adventuring, feed, help and protect all those in need met along the way as a prayer and offering to the goddess. Patrol the lands about, especially in cold winters, so that all those who are lost, hurt, or bitten by the cold can be given appropriate cures and shelter.[9]
On promoting joy, arts and beauty
Bring happiness and merriment everywhere you go, lifting people's hearts with kindness, gaiety, songs, jests and revelry. Nurture and create beauty, promote and practice music and dance, learn new songs and dances and how to play, craft and repair musical instruments. Pass this learning on whenever possible and use it to bring joy to friends and strangers alike. Feasts should always be joyful events and food eaten with the accompaniment of music, save for sad occasions. Practice swordwork, learning new techniques with the blade.[10]
On Drow
Encourage drow to return to the surface world whenever and wherever there are ways to do so. Work to promote peace with other races, helping the drow to forge their own place in the world and become part of its rightful, nonevil inhabitants. Aid all dark elves who are in danger or in need of help. If they are in combat, the fighting must be ended as soon as possible, with as little bloodshed as possible. All drow met, when not working evil on others, are to be given the message of Eilistraee:
“ A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow. ”
— The Message of Eilistraee[11]
On food
Learn how to best cook food and game, and gather new recipes and spices whenever there is the chance to do so. Try to feed yourself by your own gardening and hunting skills and assist hunters when possible. If food is aplenty, part of it is to be set aside and given to all those in need (especially outcasts and individuals of other races)--try to always carry some food for this purpose--. Give any remaining food to the priestesses of the Dark Maiden, as they will do the same and none shall go hungry.[12]
On conflict:
Repay violence with swift violence, quickly removing dangers and threats, so that the fewest may be hurt. When fighting evil, the bodies of the fallen enemies are to be burned as an offering to the goddess, unless they happen to be edible and nonsentient and hungry people are near. When faithful, friends and allies fall in battle, priestesses of the Dark Maiden must comfort and soothe those who are mourning the loss, and provide a funeral song and burial.[13]
On possessions
Wealth should be used to buy food, swords, armor and musical instruments and to assist the work of the goddess. When helping others, take as price no more than a single tool or favor that can be used to serve the goddess' will.[14]
Eilistraee and her church detested slavery and actively fought it whenever possible.[15][16]Followers of the Dark Maiden were therefore forbidden from taking slaves, and prisoners of war (mostly Lolth-worshipping drow or untrusted individuals who had acquired too much knowledge and that were held for some time to make sure that such knowledge wouldn't be used against the followers of Eilistraee) were usually made work for food and shelter, but they weren't owned and couldn't be commanded by anyone (only supervisors assigned by the decision-makers among the Dark Dancer’s worshippers could give them orders, in selected cases).[17]
Those are very meaningful for the drow, because of the reasons that I've explained above.
So yeah, Eilistraee has plenty to offer to the drow, and infinitely more than any of the deities who cursed and shunned a whole race, even the victims, pushed them in Lolth's hands, are still fine with the truth and history being ignored, do nothing to help Eilistraee in her goal, and even have ''destroy the drow'' as part of their dogma (and I'm also talking about Corellon, not only Shevarash). All of that because the *rulers* if Ilythiir were corrupted by Lolth (so your common citizen had to be condemned too, I guess).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Man, about the sexism, I really don't know what to say. That is one of the biggest problem with both WotSQ and LP. They include stuff that is in neat contrast with Eilistraee's lore, and make her appear hypocritical and a man hater, when those traits really don't belong to her character. They literally only appear in WotSQ/LP novels, and are nowhere else to be found. There is nothing in her lore that suggests that. In fact, it is also canon that males do receive a gender-equal treatment among the Eilistraeeans (SKR's article about drow society), and it is what one would naturally think after reading about her. For some reasons, the authors of those novels enjoyed to (or had to) portray the Eilistraeeans like that.
Males tend to be lay-worshipers and work as experts, guards, hunters (and so on) rather than clerics and decision-makers (and those are more or less the same of female lay-worshipers). However, and this is Ed Greenwood's lore:
1)That's not to say that males can't take those roles: a notable example was Elkantar Iluim, a former drow slave who had been discarded because of his rebellious nature, and then rescued by Qilué (to later become her consort, and father of their daughter Ysolde). He earned the position of leader of the Protectors of the Song in the Promenade, because of his wisdom and abilities.
2)Some female followers of Eilistraee may act coldly towards males--which is not surprising, given the background of some of them--and some priestesses may be wary and skeptical of males that wish to train as Sword Dancers (those who do usually fear that the reason behind this choice may be mere lust for power), until trust on a personal level is achieved. However these behaviors are not to be over-emphasized: no priestess would renounce to Eilistraee's vision, or come anywhere close to proving hostile or violent--in any way--towards males, or to refusing to accept and aid them (and assist those who want to become part of the priesthood). On the contrary, taken as a whole, female Sword Dancers are happy to welcome the fellowship of more and more followers of the Dark Maiden, regardless of gender or race (and the above-mentioned gender differences are becoming less and less noticeable in the current era, after Eilistraee's return to full power).
2) and 3)Given all that she has given just for her people (when she could have simply kept living with the Seldarine as a deity of revelry, dance and so on), and that she has endured extremely difficult times, while never giving up on her cause. Given what she does for the drow (as described above), I'd say that yes: she does love them. Rituals like the Evensong, where the drow simply open their hearts for Eilistraee to listen to what they have felt during the day, are just one more proof of how she cares about her people (and the vast majority of rituals can be celebrated by both genders, so no man hating here).
The game, I think that it should just be a metaphor, because it has weird implications (tha which you pointed out is one of many). We have two possibilities: the actions in the game determine what happens, or the actions of mortals do. In the first case, the actions of the mortals, reflected by the pieces moving on the board, would be pointless, since the result would be decided by the game, no matter what happened on the Prime. If the actions of the followers actually determined their own outcome and-say- a move could only be made after the same thing happened on the Prime, then the game would be pointless except as a metaphor, since the various moves would just be representations of what happens in the world. There's also the fact that Eilistraee (or Vhaeraun) gambling everything she has fought for over millennia on a game, or playing a game over the fate of her people (especially when she could have simply kept doing what she was doing before, with the power that she acquired during the Silence of Lolth) and all the other deities mindlessly joining in, is rather stupid IMHO. Considering this, I'm leaning towards the second option: the game used as a representation of what the followers do
About the transformation. Eilistraee's dogma is not based on ''redemption'' for something done millennias ago, or on holding drow responsible for it. Far from that. It's about acceptance, it's about valuing and accepting individuals for what they are, it's about the drow taking back their place the world, as *drow*, at peace with other people. All that she and her followers do, rituals like the Run, her teachings about helping and protecting those in need, all of that is also aimed to help the drow to show that their people can create, rather than only destroy and self-destruct, and be accepted for what they are. Eilistraee is forging her own path, one that welcomes beings of all races who revel in life and the free form expression of all that entails
She would never force anyone to give up on their identity, on who they are. Her lore even says that she helps her people in their everyday life, she helps them survive and flourish, but does that while never interfering with their choices, because she wants them to find their path. If she worries about avoiding interference on that level, then, as I said, she would *never* force her people to give up on something that is a huge part of her identity.
So, the forced transformation goes *against* everything she does. It diminishes her. It literally has nothing to do with Eilistraee (even less so with Eilistraee Masked Lady), has never been her goal, it has never been mentioned in any lore about her, anywhere, except in that book. It was just a way to try and remove Eilistraeean *drow*.
''There is no further need for Eilistraee. The willing were saved, the unwilling cast down. It is time for the dark elves to return to Arvandor."
"But the rest!" Lashrael wailed."Thousands! Hundreds of thousands! No hope of redemption for them, with Eilistraee gone. Condemned to darkness and despair, forevermore"
"Another necessary sacrifice," Felarathael said without a trace of emotion. "Else the game would have been lost.''
So, let us get this straight. In order to basically change the skin color of just hundreds of drow and allow them into another paradise (they already had a paradise in Eilistraee's realm, which btw is in Arvandor), the vast majority of the drow has to be deemed unwilling and condemned. And this should be a worthy trade, a victory, and the goal of Eilistraee. The goal of the goddess who--quoting what I said before before--chose to renounce to a life of comfort in Arvandor to follow her people and be there for them in the time of need. The goddess who chose to be one of them, and to share their fate just to offer them a new hope, when basically everyone else (except her brother) didn't care and/or shunned them. The goddess that acts as a mother and sings to the *whole* race, no matter how dark their soul is, because she can always find beauty within them. She that has never given up on fighting for her people, despite her power being little, her being unsupported, and her battle being uphill.
Yeah, no. And that is setting aside the fact that the part about unwillingness makes no sense whatsoever, and is just so freaking wrong (ten times as much, if you take a look at the history of the drow in the Realms), no matter how you look at it.
Remember tha the LP series was written with the sole and exclusive purpose of removing the drow deities, and to make Drizzt more special. I'm starting to think that a lot of the dung that was thrown over Eilistraee with the transformation and such came from that intent. http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19597
I'm sad that all that I can say is that Eilistraee's lore and her protrayal are in neat contrast. But you have to choose. Either you portray her as an hypocritical goddess, who acts sexist and forces her people to change race, then deems the vast majority of them ''unwilling'', and decides that it is a worthy trade to change the skin color of a narrow minority of the drow, and give up on all the rest. Or you portray her as, you know, Eilistraee.
4)The Eilistraeeans are actually quite active. For example, the Sword Dancers are also active in the Underdark, where they work by infiltrating in the outskirts of drow settlements. Through careful observation, they look for those dark elves who are in need of their
help and that can be brought to abandon the Way of Lolth (mostly slaves, commoners, fallen and hunted nobles, or drow who are generally unsatisfied). The priestesses then work to gain their trust, by rescuing and hiding them from their enemies, and by looking after them. They offer the drow an opportunity, a choice for those who wish a better existence. Over the centuries, the followers of the Dark Maiden have also built a secret safe passages and portals for this purpose (most converge in the now ruined temple of the Promenade), connecting areas of the Underdak with shrines to provide sanctuary to the converts.
They have an order that specializes in just helping the drow change. The Silverhair Knights make vow to never willingly end a drow life. They always show mercy--especially when forced to fight other drow (they have developed a wide variety of spells and techniques with the blade for this purpose)--aiming to teach their people the strength to be found in compassion, in the hope that their actions can make the drow feel safe about abandoning Lolth and joining them in the embrace of Eilistraee.
Some Sword Dancers even choose to live within Underdark cities or settlements where the priestesses of Lolth rule supreme, constantly putting their life at risk so that those drow that other priestesses wouldn't be able to reach can receive the Message of Eilistraee (Secret Moondancers).
As for the relationship with other races, they are active as well. These clerics are in fact known to lend their sword to fight threats that endanger not only themselves, but also other races, especially on the surface. The drow of the Promenade were a remarkable example of this, as (among their other duties) they worked to protect the city from the dangers lurking beneath it. The Darksong Knights are another example: these warriors, paladins and clerics devoted to the Dark Dancer choose to actively fight Lolth and her pawns.
In those areas where the followers of Eilistraee manage to gain a foothold, or where the presence of surface drow is higher, the Sword Dancers often act as diplomats and emissaries near (or sometimes
within) settlements of other races, in order to prevent bloody conflicts and hopefully build new friendships. For example, the clerics of Eilistraee of Elventree (near the Cormanthor forest) have established a good relationship between the inhabitants of the village and the followers of the Dark Maiden that live nearby. They have a small shrine close to the settlement, and provide healing magic to those who need it (in the past, Seyll Auzkovyn--a priestess--was even advisor to Lord Dessaer of Elventree). Karsel'lyn Lylyl Lytherraias is also a dimplomat in Evermeet, trying to build a place for the drow there.
Eilistraee teaches to ''be always kind, save in battle against evil'', and to ''repay rudeness with kindness'' (although the pride of most drow clashes with this idea). The Sword Dancers are in fact also known to lend a helping hand in simpler, common matters. They offer shelter to the homeless and travelers, food to the hungry (they even try to carry food with them at all times for this purpose), and practical help or protection to those met along the way (or in their regular patrols), curing wounded travelers, rescuing people caught in bitter cold, hunting dangerous creatures etc...
|
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 20 May 2016 19:43:29 |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2016 : 18:06:36
|
quote:
Originally posted by sw1989
Thank you for replying and reading through the post.
May I ask, whether some source which tries to answer these questions exists? I'd love to know at the very least the answer to the question where all these followers appeared, after all they couldn't have just grown from the ground?
Also with the motivation issue. Are former priestesses who lost their powers with Eilistraee's death and lacked any other kind of abilities to justify keeping influence believable stock for followers? Like trying to empower themselves again after having not fared as well as they hoped in the last century?
I would have never thought, that bringing back dead gods is this difficult.
Thank you answering in advance
Ed Greenwood answered to that. In the link that I've provided.
5e answered to that by saying ''Ao resurrected Eilistraee. Somehow, all the formerly dead gods gained back their followers''
Also, all of this makes me really wish that LP was just retconned into oblivion, rather than being half-assedly fixed by saying ''yo, the Dark Seldarine is back. Now shut up''. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 20 May 2016 18:07:18 |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2016 : 18:19:42
|
I don't get why you think that Eilistraee's followers on the surface would die en masse. Many live in small communities, protecting each other, and the priestesses are proficient sword-wielders even w/o magic. If they have survived so long, why would they be killed by orcs and stuff all of sudden? They would likely survive. I also think that they and the followers of Vhaeraun converted to the Masked Lady could have cooperated for their own survival. And, since Ed has said that Eilistraee has appeared personally to her followers, it makes sense that they have started to follow her again--actually, to me it makes sense that they have never stopped following her (people in FR worship amny gods at once, some even worship presumably dead deities, and given that 1)Eilistraee's absence lonly laste 100 years, which is not a very long time from a drow perspective 2)her closeness to her people, it's entirely plausible that her followers kept following her even during the Wailing Years, until her return).
So, IMO, while Eilistraee currently needs help in the 1490s DR, she doesn't have dangerously few worshipers. Her recent alliance with Vhaeraun could also help her (and that's canon, as Ed said here: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19841&whichpage=21#476469) |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 20 May 2016 18:34:26 |
|
|
|
sw1989
Acolyte
39 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2016 : 18:37:33
|
Hello Irennan,
I'm sorry I have overlooked your post before typing my second post.
Also thank you for giving me the information. Most importantly providing their working methods is a big help for me.
The Pdf you linked, is also interesting, because the parts in Cormanthor more or less match up with what happened years back during 4e by us, just change Eilistraee with Vhaeraun (he survived 3e in the home campaign) and moon dancers with House Jaerle and Auzkovyn. Just a question but does anyone know, when the masked brigade broke into these two houses again.?
Another time thank you |
|
|
|
sw1989
Acolyte
39 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2016 : 18:45:23
|
Another overlook of your post,
the reason, why these orcs were mentioned is, that common folks in FR are said to be rather prone to make Orcs, Goblins, Half-Orcs etc. fall into one category. So the thought was, that the logistics of
1. Putting Eilistraee's followers (now dark elves) in secret from the Underdark on the surface
2. Than evading humans and other people who would think and treat drow like bandits/slavers and so kill them
would be quite difficult. You have to understand, that until today, I thought of Eilistraee's followers as people primarily hiding in forests or as sects in the Underdark and mostly relying on the divine for survival like Lolth's drow. So their Eilistraee's death would have greatly weakened them and they would have been more or less at the mercy of whoever lived at place they were on.
I'm sorry for the continued oversights |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2016 : 19:17:57
|
quote:
Originally posted by sw1989
Hello Irennan,
I'm sorry I have overlooked your post before typing my second post.
Also thank you for giving me the information. Most importantly providing their working methods is a big help for me.
The Pdf you linked, is also interesting, because the parts in Cormanthor more or less match up with what happened years back during 4e by us, just change Eilistraee with Vhaeraun (he survived 3e in the home campaign) and moon dancers with House Jaerle and Auzkovyn. Just a question but does anyone know, when the masked brigade broke into these two houses again.?
Another time thank you
If it can be useful, the pdf that I've linked before is part of another document that I've posted on the the DMGuild (free, ofc), trying to include all exisitng lore about Eilistraee (including Ed Greenwood's lore, which is canon btw). I've tried to stay as close to canon as possible, but I had to really tone down the incosistencies with lore in the WotSQ/LP books. Because I honestly didn't want to portray Eilistraee as a man-hater. http://www.dmsguild.com/product/176361/The-Dark-Maiden-beckons-On-the-drow-goddess-Eilistraee-and-her-Faith?src=list_view
Much of the info that I typed in my post was directly taken from that pdf.
quote:
Another overlook of your post,
the reason, why these orcs were mentioned is, that common folks in FR are said to be rather prone to make Orcs, Goblins, Half-Orcs etc. fall into one category. So the thought was, that the logistics of
1. Putting Eilistraee's followers (now dark elves) in secret from the Underdark on the surface
2. Than evading humans and other people who would think and treat drow like bandits/slavers and so kill them
would be quite difficult. You have to understand, that until today, I thought of Eilistraee's followers as people primarily hiding in forests or as sects in the Underdark and mostly relying on the divine for survival like Lolth's drow. So their Eilistraee's death would have greatly weakened them and they would have been more or less at the mercy of whoever lived at place they were on.
I'm sorry for the continued oversights
The followers of Eilistraee do live mostly in small communities, often within forests, but they are communities nonetheless. They do help each other (in fact communities are mostly formed out of that need, and out of their shared ideals and faith). Eilistraee being absent surely was a hard blow, but--as I said--they have faced the problems that you point to for millennia, so they do have methods for their tasks, and they can defend themselves w/o divine magic. There would surely be difficulties, and more casualties than usual, but Eilistraee's followers would find ways to survive (remember that these drow constantly have to fight for their survival, to carve their place, they know how to hide their presence, or how to work to gain the trust of elves and humans--the Eilistraeeans of Raven's Bluff are an example of their work to gain people's trust. I described them in the pdf linked above). Especially if we take what Ed said about Eilistraee surviving, then they would also have the guidance of their goddess. Deities like Sehanine and Selune could also be compelled to help them, until the return of the Dark Maiden.
And don't worry about overlooking the posts, I apologize for splitting it in so many parts.
I also apologize for being so vehement, but I feel very strongly about Eilistraee, and Vhaeraun too. I know that it doesn't make sense and yada yada, but every time I see those events brought up, I just can't help.
At this point I only wish that some lore would be created that 1)at least explained the transformation as a choice given to Eilistraee's drow, not her goal, and not forced 2)explored the current alliance between Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, their return, their followers rebuilding what they lost, and so on. That's the least that they could do, after how those characters were trashed. ''They're back'' doesn't cut it, not after those novels. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 20 May 2016 19:48:50 |
|
|
|
sw1989
Acolyte
39 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2016 : 20:22:00
|
Again thank you,
and you don't need to feel sorry for having strong feelings. Everyone has favorite characters, one doesn't want to see treated derisively, if you felt that I'm the one at fault.
I've downloaded your pdf. I will show it to the others in the next week. To be honest, I don't think that I or any other one of my group will play an Eilistraee following PC, we will most probably continue writing Vhaeraun in the Patron deity section, but this pdf gives me methods and ideas how to use Eilistraee and NPCs following her in more sensible and effective ways than the novels portray them.
My current idea from your inspiration is to use Karsel'lyn as an emissary from Evermeet to Cormanthor. I have to think out details, because as I mentioned before our campaign world has evolved a bit differently in regards to drow. For example Miritar and the Masked Brigade (House Jerle and Auzkovyn) are allied forces, whether they have love for one another is a completely different question.
Please wish me luck and thank you for typing the pdf, perhaps I write an idea for a Darkmask-domain, too. (Given my lack of experience in homebrewing and our special rule regarding multiclassing it might become a weird one)
Again thank you for your cooperation. |
Edited by - sw1989 on 20 May 2016 20:22:15 |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2016 : 21:02:53
|
| I think that the recent alliance between Eilistraee and Vhaeraun is a perfect opportunity, if you want to use some of her followers in your Vhaeraun-centered campaign. It also is a very interesting concept, worthy of being explored (they should have been grudgingly working together since the very beginning IMO, disagreeing on the MO, but sharing a common goal, and even feeling some sibling affection for each other). Karsel'lyn could also start a relationship with the Vhaerunite of Cormanthor, since you want her to become a diplomat there (on a side note, what's in that document isn't my campaign world, I just took the premise of the Silence and let my players take it to an entirely different direction--w/o deities being removed). In either case, I wish you luck with your campaign, hope that your players find the interaction with the followers of Eilistraee fun and interesting. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 21 May 2016 00:05:48 |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2016 : 22:59:28
|
I would chime in here, but I don't think I have anything to add lol. I was going to say, "Irennan, take this one", but you already have.
@sw1989: LP had great characters, but it isn't the best source of lore for Eilistraee or Vhaeraun. In my opinion, Starlight and Shadows by Elaine Cunningham (which chronologically takes place before LP, I believe 14 years earlier, does a better job). If you haven't yet, I would also check out Demihuman Deities. The Sword Coast Adventure's Guide, which so far is the 5e version of the campaign guide, has a brief blurb on Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, the other sources (and Irennan's pdf) will be far more useful. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
|
sw1989
Acolyte
39 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2016 : 14:36:48
|
Hello CorellonsDevout,
thank you for your post. I've looked "Demihuman Deities" on the dmsguild but haven't found it. Though google says, that it surely exists. I don't have acces to it and I'm not really sure, whether I'd buy it, for buying an entire book for lore on 2 gods seems a bit too much for me.
We (our group), that we incorporate canon (meaning the novels etc.) as well as Irennan's pdf. In other words. She was all hypocritical,sexist, brainwashing,... in short overall problematic before dying, but a got a lesson in morality upon reviving so she can be a good, and more convincing, deity like in the pdf. Will be a hard road for her, given that she's almost dead in our campaign and has to convince even her former followers, that she's worthy of worship.
Once we're with "Out of the Abyss", it's my turn with DMing and then I'll introduce, hopefully it'll be fun.
Thank you all, especially Irennan for helping me.
|
Edited by - sw1989 on 24 May 2016 14:39:09 |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2016 : 14:59:28
|
You're welcome. To be fair to Eilistraee, tho, what I've written about her in the pdf (except the part about their current activities) comes from ''Demihuman Deities'', Elaine's ''Evermeet: Island of Elves'', ''Starlights and Shadows'' and Ed Greenwood's (the creator of both Eilistraee and Vhaeraun) lore. it was all there long before WotSQ 4+ and LP. That is the lore, fully canonical, that defines Eilistraee's character, not those novels. The novels blatantly violated that for whatever reason, in some parts they destroyed what Eilistraee stands for (as I've already said about the transformation and such).
Besides, there's no way that a deity that almost acts as a reskinned Lolth, that bases her dogma over guilt, would have gained 20% of the drow as followers, and kept them over millennia. There's no way that she'd have as many fans as she has (since most of us like her for what she is supposed to be). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 24 May 2016 15:11:44 |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2016 : 15:06:53
|
| The fact that LP is one of the few series with a major outcome (perhaps the only one) that WotC has chosen to basically ignore, to never speak a single word about (and I mean literally, not one word), and to essentially, fully retcon in 5e, is also very telling IMO. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 24 May 2016 15:08:51 |
|
|
|
sw1989
Acolyte
39 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2016 : 15:42:28
|
You have a point, I didn't know for a long time, that a fifth of the drow followed a Eilistraee. Thing is just, we played D&D over years, and always with the same setting, albeit with different characters, and over the course of action, the situation in our realms strayed in part quite far from what's written supplements, e.g. Storm is dead.
Now I have probably a bit more insight, than given by novels in which you really get sometimes the impression that she's a "reskinned Lolth", than before and can build her up as a veritable choice and more importantly as an ally for Cormanthor, which is where our action primarily is, in that regard please wish me luck. |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2016 : 15:45:15
|
quote:
Originally posted by sw1989
Hello CorellonsDevout,
thank you for your post. I've looked "Demihuman Deities" on the dmsguild but haven't found it. Though google says, that it surely exists. I don't have acces to it and I'm not really sure, whether I'd buy it, for buying an entire book for lore on 2 gods seems a bit too much for me.
We (our group), that we incorporate canon (meaning the novels etc.) as well as Irennan's pdf. In other words. She was all hypocritical,sexist, brainwashing,... in short overall problematic before dying, but a got a lesson in morality upon reviving so she can be a good, and more convincing, deity like in the pdf. Will be a hard road for her, given that she's almost dead in our campaign and has to convince even her former followers, that she's worthy of worship.
Once we're with "Out of the Abyss", it's my turn with DMing and then I'll introduce, hopefully it'll be fun.
Thank you all, especially Irennan for helping me.
Greetings,
I bought Demihuman Deities off of Amazon. It is a sourcebook, so it wouldn't be on the dmsguild. It's published canonical lore. They often have good new and used deals on books on Amazon. Even if you only need info on Eilistraee and Vhaeraun now, Demihuman deities has info on the elven pantheon, halfling, dwarf, and of course, drow. It is a handy source to have. I recommend it.
I wouldn't base Eilistraee or Vhaeraun's character on LP. I liked the books, but they were off on E's lore and character. As Irennan mentioned, Elaine Cunningham's Evermeet: Island of Elves, is also a good choice. I thought it did a really good job, and plus it is just an awesome read. I recommend it (and really anything by Elaine Cunningham). |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 24 May 2016 15:46:12 |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2016 : 15:55:40
|
Sure thing, I wish you best of luck. Maybe you too will see what people like in Eilistraee.
As for the % of drow following Eilistraee, remember that in the Realms people worship many gods at once, so of that 20%, the drow who worship her above everyone else are about 10-11%. The other have probably been called by her, been helped by her/her priestesses to find their freedom, but then also found other deities (obviously not Selv, Kiar or Lolth) that they could identify themselves with. After all, as I said, Eilistraee wants every drow to find their own path, and subtly helps them to do so (in fact, she not only sings to all the drow, she even helps creatures that are not her followers, as said in Demihuman Deities).
Vhaeraun is in a similar situation. Ed has said that he has slightly more *drow* followers than his sister (although a number of them follow both), so combined they have, I'd say, about 40-45% of the whole drow under their guidance. K, S and Ghaunadaur are very niche, Lolth holds about the other half. And then you have the novels, where both deities always fail and lose (they never achieve any meaningful success, whenever they appear, they ultimately end up losing), no matter what, despite these results. In any case, their alliance should be scary to Lolth. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 24 May 2016 15:56:28 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2016 : 16:10:21
|
Nobleknight.com and eBay are another good source of past material.
While on the subject of sourcebooks covering Eilistraee, it's also good to refer to the book that introduced her: FOR2 The Drow of the Underdark, by Ed Greenwood himself.
It's smaller than some other books on drow, but it's from Ed's pen, it's Realms-specific, and it was our first look at drow outside of novels or modules. I quite recommend it.
It's a 2E Forgotten Realms softcover sourcebook with a black cover -- I note this because WotC had this distressing habit of re-using sourcebook names. I'm pretty that both 3E and 4E had a hardcover core sourcebook by the same name; I cannot comment on the quality or content of them. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2016 : 16:29:43
|
4e had "Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue". It's blueish and white. There was a brief blurb on E and V as "deities of the past" since at the time, they were considered dead.
I think I remember the 3e Drow of the Underdark. I don't have it, but my friend's brother does. I didn't know there were two. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2016 : 17:12:37
|
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
4e had "Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue". It's blueish and white. There was a brief blurb on E and V as "deities of the past" since at the time, they were considered dead.
I think I remember the 3e Drow of the Underdark. I don't have it, but my friend's brother does. I didn't know there were two.
Yeah, two of those, like four Draconomicons (the original 2E one was FR, then core for 3E, and they split it to two books for core 4E), two Shining Souths (both FR books, 2E and 3E, one had a "The" in the title), two Lords of Darkness books, both FR (a 1E collection of adventures that included what was later revealed to he a sarrukh, and the 3E sourcebook), and some others that I'm sure elude my recall, at the moment. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
sw1989
Acolyte
39 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2016 : 08:05:16
|
| Actually, what is the measure for dmsguild to sell a sourcebook or not. Because I am thinking about buying 2e "Drow of the Underdark" or "Monster Mythology" on dmsguild but "Demihuman Human Deities" for example is not there. Does anyone where to read the criteria for being sold there? |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2016 : 11:08:57
|
quote:
Originally posted by sw1989
Actually, what is the measure for dmsguild to sell a sourcebook or not. Because I am thinking about buying 2e "Drow of the Underdark" or "Monster Mythology" on dmsguild but "Demihuman Human Deities" for example is not there. Does anyone where to read the criteria for being sold there?
There are three sites that are essentially all the same... RPGNow.com, DrivethruRPG.com, and DMSGuild.com. The first two are legitimate, legal pdf sourcebooks from WotC and other designers. The third is the open, fan-created one... But the way they have the sites configured, you can buy the original The Drow of the Underdark and John Generic's "Big Book of Drowz!!" from the same website. One is a licensed sourcebook from the original publisher, and the other is the self-published thing, from a different section of the website.
Also, the name of the book is Demihuman Deities. I know it was previously available as a pdf, but WotC had, for a while, yanked all legal pdfs from the market. They've not made all of them available again. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
sw1989
Acolyte
39 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2016 : 12:32:10
|
| Thank you for the information and pointing out the writing mistake, I'm a bit ashamed over that one.. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2016 : 14:23:21
|
quote:
Originally posted by sw1989
Thank you for the information and pointing out the writing mistake, I'm a bit ashamed over that one..
No worries; just trying to be helpful. I assumed it was a misconception over the name of the book. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2016 : 16:29:26
|
| I would try Amazon or a used bookstore site (or go into the store, if you have access to one). I seem to remember getting a good price for a used copy of Demihuman Deities from Amazon. I haven't looked for Drow of the Underdark books, though I have the Menzo one. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
|
|
Eilistraee's followers; origin and motivation
