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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Aug 2016 : 15:06:34
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Maestro was the worst book I've read in a while. One of my lesser gripes is that the much-anticipated reunion between Jarlaxle and Entreri, after what, more than a decade of actual time, almost half a century of realms time and a heck of a lot of stuff to hash out, felt very much like Bob decided, "This is too complex to write out so I'll just have them back together acting (inexplicably) like the way they did during The Sellswords and call it good."
I'll keep reading these, but I'm just so disillusioned that I can't even find the energy to write a bad review for it. |
Edited by - sno4wy on 18 Aug 2016 15:07:53 |
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CylverSaber
Seeker
95 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2016 : 18:50:25
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I would note that Drizzt is the only drow who has successfully led a defeat of Menzoberranzan's armies on more than one occasion, so that might account for why some drow admire him, being as drow generally respect power :)
As for Jarlaxle and Entreri, they were reunited in an earlier book, I forget which one. But Jarlaxle's betrayal was addressed. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2016 : 19:14:11
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That's the only reason why some of the drow of Menzo would admire him. But most of them wouldn't want to become like him, save for being able to defeating their eventual hunters. But really, the point wasn't that. It wasn't that Drizzt shouldn't be admired/recognized, he well deserves to be in the spotlight.
The point was that when you get the majority of the yearly novel space, and you are writing in a shared setting, in a time when the world is changing, when the very race that you are writing about has just undergone yet another big change, and updates are also heavily delivered through the novels, you could as well make some small effort to go outside your bubble (and also avoid a few major mistakes). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 21 Aug 2016 19:15:52 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2016 : 19:36:06
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| Exactly. Drizzt is a great guy. He's noble and caring. It's not that he doesn't deserve the admiration--he does. It's that he is the -only- inspiration that is the problem. Drizzt left the Underdark and didn't really care. Can't blame him for that, but followers of E and V, who are in the thick of things, to not even get a mention...really? |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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CylverSaber
Seeker
95 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2016 : 20:40:12
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But how would you work them in without derailing the overall story? Should Jarlaxle say to Drizzt "It's vital that you keep your moral compass, because you are the one who provides us with hope! But really, it's ok if you don't, because we always have Eilistraee and Vhaeraun as backup options."
I can see from a storytelling standpoint why an author will sometimes choose not to try to include every bit of related lore. Storytelling is a different art than writing a campaign sourcebook. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2016 : 20:43:52
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No, but following your example, Jarlaxle could mention faithfuls of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun stirring waters in other drow settlements, and then use it as an example of why Menzo too could change, or stuff along those lines. It doesn't take much. No one said that RAS should write a story or subplot about them, only that he could acknowledge them.
If in the new era, while writing a novel that has absolutely nothing to do with drow. I'm sure that someone like RAS can find a way to tell us something about that, while writing a novel that is about drow. Heck, some of his recent books had parts set in the Silver Marches, a place that is known for Eilistraeean presence. A short scene featuring them (or something along those lines) would have been really cool IMO. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 21 Aug 2016 20:52:14 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2016 : 21:18:25
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A simple mention is not going to derail the storyline. And it doesn't have to be in dialogue. It could be in a narrative, such as when talking about Shakti, who's history wasn't mentioned at all. I was actually really surprised by that. And, considering Lolth's involvement, mentioning her children would have made sense. Ed inserts lore bits all the time, and there is little to no disruption in the storyline.
Or, when Drizzt is mentioned as "the beacon of hope", again in narrative, it would have been easy to briefly mention E and V's efforts. Drizzt is a beacon, along with E and V.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 21 Aug 2016 21:20:36 |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2016 : 02:59:16
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quote:
Originally posted by CylverSaber
As for Jarlaxle and Entreri, they were reunited in an earlier book, I forget which one. But Jarlaxle's betrayal was addressed.
Not really, unless a handful of words exchanged and glaring across the way constitutes "reunited". |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2016 : 14:36:43
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quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
Maestro was the worst book I've read in a while. One of my lesser gripes is that the much-anticipated reunion between Jarlaxle and Entreri, after what, more than a decade of actual time, almost half a century of realms time and a heck of a lot of stuff to hash out, felt very much like Bob decided, "This is too complex to write out so I'll just have them back together acting (inexplicably) like the way they did during The Sellswords and call it good."
I'll keep reading these, but I'm just so disillusioned that I can't even find the energy to write a bad review for it.
I enjoyed the book much more than you did. I loved it in fact. But for me, this was a major point of contention. Entreri hated Jarlaxle when we last saw them, blaming Jarlaxle for his decades of enslavement to the Netherese. Even current Entreri, despite being a more morally gray character, is by no means kind or forgiving. He's still a hard, brutal killer who doesn't tolerate being crossed.
Overall, I have enjoyed Entreri's development as a character immensely throughout the series. But lately, he's been jerked around a lot. At the end of Road of the Patriarch, he is back home and finding himself all over again.
Then he's in slavery to his own sword, and we never find out what magic caused that to happen. In terms of what we've actually seen Charon's Claw do, it's not nearly a powerful enough artifact that the Netherese would send a small army to retrieve it. Plus, Kimmuriel stopped Jarlaxle from going back to save Entreri because the drow feared the retaliation of the Netherese. But in the tunnels of Gauntlgrym, the drow pick the Netherese apart. And Bregan Daerthe storms the castle of a powerful warlock and Netherese lord easily, taking no casualties and fearing no retaliation. So that whole storyline was weird.
So the timeline is:
1) Entreri returns home and abandons Jarlaxle forever.
2) Kimmuriel uses Calihye to force Entreri back into Bregan Daerthe.
3) Netherese come after the sword and enslave Entreri.
4) Entreri returns to Bregan Daerthe, serving under Jarlaxle (who he hates) and Kimmuriel (who he's always despised).
One more question. Kimmuriel is increasingly bold in the more recent books about his leadership of Bregan Daerthe, even outright threatening Jarlaxle at one point. So why would Kimmuriel even allow Entreri back into Bregan Daerthe? The hatred between them has always been intense, and the only reason Kimmuriel never killed Entreri is that he didn't want to face retaliation from Jarlaxle. |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2016 : 14:42:20
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
A simple mention is not going to derail the storyline. And it doesn't have to be in dialogue. It could be in a narrative, such as when talking about Shakti, who's history wasn't mentioned at all. I was actually really surprised by that. And, considering Lolth's involvement, mentioning her children would have made sense. Ed inserts lore bits all the time, and there is little to no disruption in the storyline.
Or, when Drizzt is mentioned as "the beacon of hope", again in narrative, it would have been easy to briefly mention E and V's efforts. Drizzt is a beacon, along with E and V.
The mention of Shakti sent me into overdrive. I loved her in the Starlight and Shadows trilogy! I loved Liriel too, so I was really glad they both survived.
I was excited to see that Shakti is mere heartbeats from the Ruling Council, and I was hoping RAS would feature her in a novel. It seems incredibly random to mention her after all this time (though I'm thankful for the fan service).
Most of all, I wonder if she is still a traitor priestess for the Masked Lord. She didn't reveal herself during Lolth's Silence, but she may have been covertly working to destroy Menzo. She's as devious a drow as there is to be found.  |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2016 : 15:18:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
That's the only reason why some of the drow of Menzo would admire him. But most of them wouldn't want to become like him, save for being able to defeating their eventual hunters. But really, the point wasn't that. It wasn't that Drizzt shouldn't be admired/recognized, he well deserves to be in the spotlight.
The point was that when you get the majority of the yearly novel space, and you are writing in a shared setting, in a time when the world is changing, when the very race that you are writing about has just undergone yet another big change, and updates are also heavily delivered through the novels, you could as well make some small effort to go outside your bubble (and also avoid a few major mistakes).
I have to defend RAS here. His books are his responsibility. The novel line is WOTC's responsibility. FR is a huge shared world, so he, Ed, and Erin can't do a job that requires dozens of writers and staffers to do correctly.
Now you might say that he's the only writer who uses the drow. But that was never meant to be that way. Elaine Cunningham and Lisa Smedman had whole trilogies about the drow, and 6 different writers used them in the War of the Spider Queen saga. So there were always meant to be different takes on the drow, but WOTC has mishandled that.
It can't be on his shoulders to provide FR readers with the whole of their understanding about the drow, the dwarves, the orcs, monks, etc. No writer in FR uses everything, so I don't see why he always gets criticized for that. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2016 : 15:23:27
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| I think that I made my point clear in that he's the only writer that currently uses the drow, and he's writing in a time of the setting where the drow are yet again undergoing a big change. I don't think that simple acknowledgement of important parts of the Realmsian drow like Eilistraee and Vhaeraun in such a situation would be too much. But I've already talked about this extensively. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 01 Sep 2016 15:24:08 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2016 : 15:31:40
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| And especially considering what he is currently going on with Lolth and the drow (not to mention bringing in Shakti), mentioning--and I just mean a sentence or two--E and V would have been nice, and it would have made sense |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1265 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2016 : 15:58:42
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quote:
Kimmuriel is increasingly bold in the more recent books about his leadership of Bregan Daerthe, even outright threatening Jarlaxle at one point. So why would Kimmuriel even allow Entreri back into Bregan Daerthe? The hatred between them has always been intense, and the only reason Kimmuriel never killed Entreri is that he didn't want to face retaliation from Jarlaxle.
I think to Kimmuriel, Artemis isn't worth his time. Sure he could kill him or prevent him from joining BD, but doing so would expend political capital with Jarlaxle and after 50 years or more of time, he just doesn't care enough to bother. He has moved on to other more important matters, like saving Menzo from Demogorgon or dealing with his mother?
Just a hazarded guess. |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2016 : 20:43:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
quote:
Kimmuriel is increasingly bold in the more recent books about his leadership of Bregan Daerthe, even outright threatening Jarlaxle at one point. So why would Kimmuriel even allow Entreri back into Bregan Daerthe? The hatred between them has always been intense, and the only reason Kimmuriel never killed Entreri is that he didn't want to face retaliation from Jarlaxle.
I think to Kimmuriel, Artemis isn't worth his time. Sure he could kill him or prevent him from joining BD, but doing so would expend political capital with Jarlaxle and after 50 years or more of time, he just doesn't care enough to bother. He has moved on to other more important matters, like saving Menzo from Demogorgon or dealing with his mother?
Just a hazarded guess.
Fine point, but there is still the matter of Entreri being willing to serve under Kimmuriel. He hated him a lot before, and only even pursued Charon's Claw to kill Kimmuriel and Rai-Guy if the opportunity arose.
The only way I can see Entreri possibly forgiving Jarlaxle is if Jarlaxle told him the whole truth, which is that Kimmuriel altered his memories to prevent him from rescuing Entreri. But that would only drive Entreri to hate Kimmuriel even before. He may not try to kill him (because he understands how difficult that could be), but he sure wouldn't work for him again. |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1265 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2016 : 01:09:16
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| Unless Artemis is working with BD to get close enough to take a stab at Kimmuriel? Or he's willing to work with Jarlaxle and knows that BD and Jarlaxle come as a package...he's hated Kimmuriel and worked with him in the past, no? Sort of? I can't defend Bob's writing here at all :) If I were Artemis I would be in love with Kimmuriel because he's the greatest; but the character as written by Bob hates and loathes and despises Kimmuriel so it doesn't make sense he would be eager to work for him in any sense. I agree with you! |
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DandelionClock
Seeker
67 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2016 : 17:25:48
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Meh. Kimmuriel was kicked under the bus in my opinion, character development wise, when he raped Dahlia. And yeah, I am not confusing him with Tiago. I am talking about that thing that happened a few books back when Kimmuriel wandered through Dahlias mind and took the physical "sex" as a side dish. I can't see much of a difference between a hallucinating woman who thinks she is with someone else and at a different point in time, and an unconscious one.
Plenty of character nuances thrown under the bus lately, for plenty of characters. The fact that everyone just works together whenever it fits, and suddenly everyone gets that there are morally grey areas after establishing that the whole Neverwinter trilogy led to the point where Drizzt, said, yeah, maybe, but I don't want to live that way...
And now it's just, yeah, let's ALL team up with Netherese lords and ladies of great power and evil - after giving someone like Effron, who rejected the possibility of becoming such a lord (via his staff), the collective side eye just a few books prior, because goodly folks... blah blah blah...
It's all become compeltely random and inconclusive. Why should I give a thing about the chars anymore if all of a sudden, character development has been replaced for good by power upgrade. I have no idea what's going down here business wise, but I am really falling out of love with the Realms books in general lately, and it all feels like the last season in a tv series that's about being warapped up either in an ungodly hurry or a few seasons after its prime. I am not sure. |
Edited by - DandelionClock on 04 Sep 2016 17:28:14 |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2016 : 18:52:47
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quote:
Originally posted by DandelionClock
Meh. Kimmuriel was kicked under the bus in my opinion, character development wise, when he raped Dahlia. And yeah, I am not confusing him with Tiago. I am talking about that thing that happened a few books back when Kimmuriel wandered through Dahlias mind and took the physical "sex" as a side dish. I can't see much of a difference between a hallucinating woman who thinks she is with someone else and at a different point in time, and an unconscious one.
Plenty of character nuances thrown under the bus lately, for plenty of characters. The fact that everyone just works together whenever it fits, and suddenly everyone gets that there are morally grey areas after establishing that the whole Neverwinter trilogy led to the point where Drizzt, said, yeah, maybe, but I don't want to live that way...
And now it's just, yeah, let's ALL team up with Netherese lords and ladies of great power and evil - after giving someone like Effron, who rejected the possibility of becoming such a lord (via his staff), the collective side eye just a few books prior, because goodly folks... blah blah blah...
It's all become compeltely random and inconclusive. Why should I give a thing about the chars anymore if all of a sudden, character development has been replaced for good by power upgrade. I have no idea what's going down here business wise, but I am really falling out of love with the Realms books in general lately, and it all feels like the last season in a tv series that's about being warapped up either in an ungodly hurry or a few seasons after its prime. I am not sure.
I agree with your general point, but I disagree about Kimmuriel. He's never been moving towared gray/neutral alignment like Artemis or Jarlaxle. Pretty much the only strong emotions we've seen Kimmuriel express have been rage at the destruction of his house, contempt for "lesser" races, and excitement when torturing someone (like his and Rai Guy's gruesome execution of that Raker spy).
Kimmuriel's always been thoroughly evil, callous, and extremely condescending. I've hated him since Day 1. Which personally, I like. Novelists can't go on and on about the utter depravity of the drow race, and then have all the drow featured be characters like Drizzt, Jarlaxle, or Liriel.
At the same time, Kimmuriel isn't some cartoonish cackling drow matron. He's a more subtle, cold, introspective evil. I greatly appreciate him for what he is.
I like Kimmuriel's storyline of seeking to transcend to a higher plane of existence. He's incapable of doing this the way Grandmaster Kane did, because he has too much hate in him. I see him ending the story by somehow becoming the first drow to join fully in communion with the illithids, and using their secrets to become a being of pure psionic energy. (I believe they had some way of doing this in Jhaamdath, but I doubt Kimmuriel will ever find their ruins.)
Jarlaxle likes adventuring too much, so he'll probably spend his time on the surface and give Bregan Daerthe to someone like Beniago. I really wish Bregan Daerthe would have led a war to overthrow the matrons, but I think the time for that has passed.
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DandelionClock
Seeker
67 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2016 : 22:45:54
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First let me say: I bitch because I care. Unfortunately, this is only one of my recent WotC-related gripes. I still want to draw all the characters and pay for stuff and discuss it with people and everything. But what I tried to say with "thrown under the bus character wise" wasn't that I was seeing a redemption arc for Kimmie down the road or, in the Realms Novels, need to see grey "areas" everywhere. It's more a general thing, tropes being thrown around, characters being inconclusive and random and completely forgetting their past experiences, those stories being all for nothing because everyone suffers from character amnesia. It really picked up speed with the ending of The Last Threshold.
Kimmuriel as an example: I would have gotten it if he'd just been his usual self treating everyone like grass hoppers under a magnifying glass. Adding him sexually abusing someone was unnecessary and pointless. The general "booyah, let's make every male drow and a few female ones hop on the 'abuse-Dahlia-sexually to show how evil they all are'-train" thing became gross, most of all and finally in this book.
It isn't something a well developed villain just does because they're evil, it has to fit. "Evil plus male equals rapist" is cheap, writing wise. It doesn't automatically fit to cold, observing Kimmuriel because he's a bad guy. Quite the contrary: Kimmuriel would have been the perfect sterile-evil character not to see the point in doing this. He could have found a gazillion other ways to make people's skin crawl. More original, and more Kimmuriel-characteristic ones, like in the past books.
It's one thing to have an evil character that's so evil you can enjoy it, from a reader's perspective. Look at "Hannibal" - like the series or not, but they found a hundred different ways to make him really evil which were particular, and had impact. Kimmuriel could have been a Hannibal-like character, and instead the Underdark turns into the back country from "Deliverance".
Because it's another thing to make them all equally disgusting using the same trope while doing so, like rape is some basic ingredient for an evil drow shake. It's cheap. It cheapens the characters you use it on. If you write, ask yourself why you use rape, and if it's an overused thumbscrew used to force a reaction from the audience, think of something else or take a break.
I am not saying "don't write about rape" I am saying "don't use it like goddamn ketchup, both the issue at hand and your chars should be too important for that". If you pepper in the occasional rape scene just to remind everyone how evil they (the drow) all are and how unredeemable, well, sorry, but that's a classic case of "how not to use rape in fiction". This in particular became a gross mess when juxtaposed with the fact that the goodly heroines somehow always manage to save themselves in these books. It happens to "psycho bitches" only, or the occasional nameless victim.
PS: Re the recent inflation of rapists. It was so weirdly specific that it always centered on the same victim in the past few books. And this scene with Kimmuriel - it either was a case of "author didn't realize he wrote a rape scene" or produced a "parts of the audience don't realize it's a rape scene", and that does not make it any better (look at the Forgotten Realms Wiki entry if you want to know what I mean: it's in Dahlia's entry under "relationships": "Dahlia slept with Kimmuriel Oblodra, although she did not seem to be entirely aware of it and he viewed it only as a curious academic exercise". Not entirely aware. Okay.) Like, was there even ANY point to this in the story? Does anyone know what this was supposed to tell us about either Kimmuriel or Dahlia? Was this even "Kimmie is evil, hence rape" or was this a really bad try to remind us what a slut Dahlia is, and done in a terrible terrible way? What?
But for me, a lot hinges on the upcoming book. If you write such a conga line of rape and sexual violence into that ONE "mean woman"'s character story, I want to see what consequences that has. That would be the final straw: Kimmie wipes her mind to "heal" her. It has no consequences. At all. No biggie.
And THAT would tell me everything I've come to dread about this overall story and where it's been going. Lasting consequences? What's that? We're going to regurgutate these chars and plots as long as someone's stupid enough to pay for it, and you folks can be glad it's at least still, more or less, in the hands of the author who invented them. Except for the overall story ark, we dictated that because online game, new system version, etc pp. So there was never any room to wriggle anyways or let any character wander off after their story was told, or let them be permanently changed. |
Edited by - DandelionClock on 04 Sep 2016 23:12:17 |
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Entromancer
Senior Scribe
USA
388 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2016 : 18:11:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Pazuzu
I just finished "Maestro" and I am really puzzled... what has the title to do with the content (besides some very obvious sentences)? What is the actual plot? Why to let a demon lord free within 3 pages and destroy him again within 3 pages? Isn't that more than just a bit inflationary handling of end game bosses? What will be released next? I am really afraid... Why cannot just Paul Kemp start writing on DMG? Or let RAS just do his thing w/o interference from WotC... I am so sad right now...
Maestro - Jarlaxle and Yvonnel
Plot - The drow of Menozberranzan seek to consolidate their power in wake of Demogorgon's rampage, defending their city from the threat of scheming drow within and demons without. Meanwhile the mercenary Jarlaxle works to secure a future for the drow free from the zealotry of the warring matron mothers.
The drow that turned against the Spider Queen aren't all Drizzts. Look at Gromph and Beniago. Beniago's nonchalant about making Catti disappear without Jarlaxle's noticing it. Gromph tried to rape her. Both rejected Lolth but are far from the same moral cloth as Drizzt.
But yes, WOTC likely told Bob to get their demon product line running. |
"...the will is everything. The will to act."--Ra's Al Ghul
"Suffering builds character."--Talia Al Ghul |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2016 : 19:28:19
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| This is an old thread now lol. I'm just happy Hero was better than Maestro. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Entromancer
Senior Scribe
USA
388 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2016 : 19:57:31
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| I got both for Christmas and just finished Maestro - I enjoyed it more than Archmage. Some good ideas in Archmage that needed some rewrites. I've got a question about Yvonnel - in terms of the Forgotten Realms game mechanics, what exactly do you call whatever Yvonnel is? |
"...the will is everything. The will to act."--Ra's Al Ghul
"Suffering builds character."--Talia Al Ghul |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2016 : 21:31:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Entromancer
I got both for Christmas and just finished Maestro - I enjoyed it more than Archmage. Some good ideas in Archmage that needed some rewrites. I've got a question about Yvonnel - in terms of the Forgotten Realms game mechanics, what exactly do you call whatever Yvonnel is?
Mage/Priest if I were to class her. |
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Maestro review *spoilers*
