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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2016 :  12:20:09  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I'm looking more closely at these regions and have found a few things that I'm pondering over and wanted to know what other peoples thoughts are.

Firstly is the ancient nar people. The suren conquered the lands of old narfell as the empire collapsed in the immediate aftermath of the great conflagration. But what happened to the people.

George has some move into impiltur which was presumably far enough away for the suren not to follow (maybe the glacier made it to hard to pursue them). We also know some nar transformed into volodni in the wood to escape the monsters and suren.

So what about the rest.

The suren don't strike me as sympathetic or inclusive based on the modern nar and yet the mongol hordes of real world under ghengis khan were very inclusive of regions they conquered. So did the suren slaughter everyone they found because they were all weakling demon worshippers or did they enslave those that didn't fight.

Did any nar flee to elsewhere like ashanath where the odd weather would keep the hordes at bay and there is sources stating the barbarians of narfell and ashanath don't get on.

Perhaps there were more instances of transformations to escape their death. What about the taer and yeti in Northern narfell, both are humanoid and seemingly isolated in this region, perhaps they are magical in origin (perhaps demonic).


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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1864 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2016 :  12:42:56  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I tend to assume that any ancient people from 2,000 years ago stopped existing a long time ago anywhere they weren't isolated.

It doesn't mean they were all massacred. It just means that they mixed with successive waves of other peoples to form new nations and peoples. Having an ethnic identity last 2,000 years is very much the exception, rather than a rule. Especially on the steppes, where there is so much mobility.

The Eurasian steppes in our world have plenty of people who are descended from Cimmerians, Scythians, Sarmatians or Huns, but they don't really have any ethnicities that can demonstrate a continuity across the millenia with those cultures, not beyond cultural characteristics shared by almost all steppe peoples.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2016 :  12:53:35  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh I get that they are gone. Some form part of impiltur a heritage which also forms part of the damaran subgroup, but I wonder did all of them flee to impiltur or did some remain and were absorbed by the suren or were the remainder slaughtered by the demons they unleashed and the suren and the cold and the collapse of civilisation leaving on the few survivors in impiltur and those that transformed themselves into something else as the only inheritors of narfells ancient heritage.

For instance the raumvira have very little remaining of their people, with some surviving in the hordelands, some in rashemen and some in thay, but not large numbers by any measure. These were then integrated into the existing peoples and the identity lost which is why raumvira is not mentioned as a subgroup.

Why is the question when big empires collapse lots of people remain. The nar refugees should have overwhelmed the jhaamdathi in numbers and yet are only a part of the makeup of the damaran people when really they should be the majority unless most were killed (an army is generally a very small percentage if the population so the war with raumathar shouldn't have killed that many ancient narfelli ).

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Misereor
Learned Scribe

164 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2016 :  13:10:38  Show Profile Send Misereor a Private Message  Reply with Quote


GHoTR mentions that some king or other was able to unite the Nar into an empire, but it doesn't say anything about it being a peaceful process or that the rule of the kings was without resistance.
I have no idea who the Suren were, but I always pictured Damara and Vaasa as being settled by still semi-tribal Nars fleeing in the opposite direction of Raumathar as the nation collapsed. Over the centuries a balance was achieved where Damara became dominated mostly by those tribesfolk who never descended into demons worship, while Vaasa was eventually settled by the factions who did (heavy emphasis on Orcus sub-faction).

I see Impiltur as also having a substantial influx of refugees, but otherwise being more influenced by settlers from across the Sea of Fallen Stars. The link would be strong enough however, to engender some bonds of kniship, reinforced by the spread of goodly religions. I also suspect the foundations of the Monastery of the Yellow Rose was more influenced by Impilturians than Nars, even if many did embrace the worship of Ilmater later on.



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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1864 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2016 :  13:15:40  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The vast majority of the surviving normal people probably stayed right where they were* and became parts of succeeding empires.

I don't see any reason to assume that Jhaamdathi people overwhelmed the Nars in numbers at any time. The modern Damaran people formed a very long time after the Great Conflagration and, in any case, the DNA origins of peasants living in any particular region has but a limited impact on the language and culture of those who write their history.

A lot of cultures and ethnicities were lost in Europe over the last 2,000 years. They may have as many descendants as those of the cultures and languages that ended up on top, or even more, but since the peasants aren't the ones writing history and conserving cultural touchstones, not much of the culture to which they once belonged ends up preserved.

*Many may have become nomadic, following herds, but few are likely to have entirely abandoned familiar lands.

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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
1150 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2016 :  17:34:46  Show Profile  Visit hashimashadoo's Homepage Send hashimashadoo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Misereor


I have no idea who the Suren were, but I always pictured Damara and Vaasa as being settled by still semi-tribal Nars fleeing in the opposite direction of Raumathar as the nation collapsed. Over the centuries a balance was achieved where Damara became dominated mostly by those tribesfolk who never descended into demons worship, while Vaasa was eventually settled by the factions who did (heavy emphasis on Orcus sub-faction).


The Suren were a people of the Hordelands. They were pushed westward by the Kao Dynasty of Shou Lung and came into conflict with Narfell & Raumathar. When those two destroyed each other, the Suren drove the Raumvirans further west before turning back and conquering the western Kao lands before fragmenting into smaller tribes.

I for one wouldn't think that the Suren would believe demon-worshipers to be weaklings. Their histories would have told of the depredations of the Copper Demon of Tros.

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Edited by - hashimashadoo on 09 Feb 2016 17:36:54
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2016 :  20:10:02  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well when I said overwhelmed I was thinking in terms of genetics.

If you have a racial subgroup that is 90% of one type then to me it makes sense to identify it by the majority subgroup.

The Damarans are part Sossrim, part Jhaam, part Nar, and part Raumathar. Now I don't know in what percentage but at a guess the Sossrim are the result of isolated traders and tribes that moved south into the region so not loads. The Raumathar are the few survivors of the empire that made it this far west when the Suren smashed the remnants and they hit the Raumathari first and presumably hardest. The Nar are likewise to the Raumathar but being closer to Impiltur (because Damara was mostly covered by ice at this time) more of them survived and that's why there are a few noble clans of ancient nar mentioned as having joined the people of Impiltur (according to George anyway). Finally we have the Jhaam, now they survived a catastrophe like the Nar and Raumathar but their catastrophe was a massive tsunami that swamped the most inhabited region of their homeland. After the recent tsunamis in Japan and Indonesia we know how utterly devastating they can be (and that is very) so one can assume not many Jhaam survived, maybe tens of thousands, so perhaps only a few thousand made it to Impiltur.

So if there were few Sossrim, few Raumathari, and few Jhaam, then either there were also few surviving ancient Nar to allow each racial subgroup to contribute significant portions to the genetic makeup of the Damarans, or modern Damarans are mostly Nar in which case why not call them Nar?



As for the Nar being weak, that's just how I imagine the Suren viewing them. Taking a bit of inspiration from Conan the Barbarian (the film) and other nomadic warrior cultures where it is often survival of the fittest, as well as the Bloodstone Lands sourcebook stating that savage tribes will slaughter all outsiders and hostile ones will mostly take prisoners. I figure from a Suren point of view the Nar and Raumathar lost their wars with each other and then lost to the Suren, therefore they are weak because they lost. The demon worship is not going to endear them to the Suren who were likely pushed west and south in the hordelands because of the copper demon of Tros.


Curiously the sourcebooks often state the modern Nar as being heritors to the ancient Nar. I wonder if this is just poor research or whether a number of ancient Nar were enslaved by the Suren and then they mingled together to form the modern Nar.

Perhaps the Nar and Suren did not mingle together at all, perhaps the Suren only conquered so far into Narfell before being stopped or before voluntarily stopping. Certainly the line of hostile to friendly tribes appears to be drawn between east and west with the friendly tribes in the west near Damara and the hostile tribes in the east.

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Korginard
Learned Scribe

USA
126 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2016 :  19:03:10  Show Profile  Visit Korginard's Homepage Send Korginard a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's possible that people would want to hold on to the proud heritage of their past, but lets take a look at that past. Narfell is known to have been a land of Demon-Worshipers. It was also destroyed, quite spectacularly to boot. Now, taking pride in your ancestry is one thing, but what kind of stories would we be telling here? Crazy old Grandpa Lenny who worshiped a Dark Lord and sacrificed untold numbers of people to feed it's terrible hunger? Tales of our glorious ancestors who summoned the hoards of the Abyss to ravage the world and slaughter their enemies? Sure some people might convince themselves that it was simply what they had to do to survive against those nasty Raumvira, but generally speaking, most sane folk would not really take much pride in these kind of things. It may have been easier to set aside their Nar heritage and embrace a new culture instead.
I do however like the idea of some of the refugees transforming to survive. In looking at Demon Lords, it seems that Kostchchie in particular would be a good candidate to have transformed them to survive cold and hostile regions. They could have become Yetis as you suggested, or perhaps even Frost Giants or some demonic blend of Frost Giant and Human. They could also have been tainted with Lycanthropy, modeled after winter wolves or bears. I usually tend to think of Were-Bears as gentile giants, but a savage and brutal type of Were-Bear berserker would be truly terrifying!
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2016 :  20:05:00  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It might just be me but I don't imagine ancient Narfell to be filled with demons on every street. I doubt the common man ever met a demon (that he knew of) and only the most powerful of nobles would have trafficked of demons.

I'm pretty sure I read one excerpt that said something like "demons walk openly with the forces of Narfell for the first time" and I'm also pretty sure that was during the great conflagration which says to me that up until that point the demons were hidden in the background rather than being out in the open.

I picture ancient narfell as a totalitarian empire where punishments were harsh and arbitrary (with some punishments basically being death or enslavement to anyone who didn't love their increasingly mad and distant emperors) lots of people disappearing thanks to the demonic infiltrated secret police (a bit like Nazi Germany now that I think about it but with demons)

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 12 Feb 2016 :  09:21:02  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmm it looks like demons started marching openly with narfells armies around -600 dr when narfell invaded mulhorand by see and lost and then subsequently lost thay to raumathar.
I'm wondering if this started a decline in narfell that contined for 500 years and ultimately culminated in a last ditch attempt to win by summoning and binding eltab.
That works for my idea of what happened to the jhaam when they first arrived in the region - narfell enslaved them to build and fortify the lands to the west (impiltur) while narfell defended its territory in the east.

I am wondering why so many demon lords were interested in narfell and helped to bring down raumathar. Kostchie, orcus, eltab, fraz, grazzt. And many of then look to have had a personal involvement which is also unusual.

Anyway, on to modern day narfell. I think the war did kill much of narfells population. The battles killed many, the collapse of civilisation killed some more, the marauding demons, and the cold killed even more, then finally the suren came and killed any magic users they could find (seems to be a typical primitive tribal reaction) and enslaved the rest. So the modern nar are made of majority suren with say 30 percent ancient nar and then a tiny minority of others (sossrim, raumathar). I'm talking in genetic terms of course.

The damarans are an equal mix of jhaam, ancient nar, sossrim, and raumathar, with a dash of netherese.

Impiltur is mostly chondathan with a significant minority of ancient nar and damaran.

Vaasans are just damarans with extra sossrim and netherese added

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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 12 Feb 2016 :  11:33:10  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I though it were Rashemi(although Rashemi who were allready a mix of old Rashemi, Raumathar and Rus) who are ancestors of Damarans.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 12 Feb 2016 :  11:46:17  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Rashemi are only one part of damaran heritage and a small part at that.
Races of faerun gives a good overview of the history of damarans which began long before the nation was born.

Jhaam (I do not use chondathan because chondath did not exist until after the fall of jhaamdath and the chondathan blood contains a significant mix of netherese blood that could not have occurred at Jhaamdath's fall) and nar provide the base with smaller amounts of sossrim, rashemi, raumathar, and raumvira peoples.
The jhaam bloodlines were then topped up with successive waves of immigrants from chondathans from impiltur and the vilhon reach, while the nar bloodlines were topped up by modern nar tribesmen in the west of narfell that contained a greater portion of ancient nar blood.

At least that's what I think at the moment after some research.

The raumathar tribes make up a smaller percent because as well as being hit by the war they were the first to be attacked by the suren and so would have suffered the most. They are also further away from damara/narfell so fewer would have travelled west through enemy territory and survived.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 12 Feb 2016 :  11:51:27  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Another thought is language. The cold lands and impiltur and some of the unapproachable east use the dethek alphabet which is on contrast to everywhere else which uses thorass.
I'm thinking after the collapse of civilisation in the area many people lost the use of their old writing (including the jhaam) as happened in Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire.
The major points of civilisation at the time would have been the dwarves of the earthfast and galenas so the humans that survived picked up the dwarves alphabet for easy trading with the dwarves

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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 12 Feb 2016 :  20:52:39  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh yes, I know Damarans aren't exclusivelly decesdants of Rashemi, I just meant that I remember it was Rashemi, rather than Raumathari who were among the ancestors of modern Damarans.

I also remember Damaran folkore was described as largelly from the ancient traditions of Nar, Rashemi, and Sossrim, so I guessed Rashemi heritage is bit more significant than small.

Sossrim themselves started out as a Rashemi tribe, although probably mixed at least a bit with the very northern tribes over the ages.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 12 Feb 2016 :  21:02:24  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm finding it hard to imagine that tribals from one destroyed empire made it across the ravaged lands of Narfell (having been burned by Kossuth and still full of summoned demons) ahead of an army of horselords in any quantity sufficient to become more than a minority of the genetic makeup of the people that would occupy Damara.

I'm imagining a minority of less than 10%, with Sossrim being even less, but given that the Jhaam likely had lost all ties with their homeland it is no surprise the Damarans adopted the customs and tales of the tribes that still lived around and within them. Rashemen still existed in the east, the Nar were present in Impiltur, the Sossrim were from a nation to the north. So there would be plenty of exposure to people with existing traditions while their own faded from lack of use.

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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2016 :  02:33:30  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Hmm it looks like demons started marching openly with narfells armies around -600 dr when narfell invaded mulhorand by see and lost and then subsequently lost thay to raumathar.
I'm wondering if this started a decline in narfell that contined for 500 years and ultimately culminated in a last ditch attempt to win by summoning and binding eltab.
That works for my idea of what happened to the jhaam when they first arrived in the region - narfell enslaved them to build and fortify the lands to the west (impiltur) while narfell defended its territory in the east.

I am wondering why so many demon lords were interested in narfell and helped to bring down raumathar. Kostchie, orcus, eltab, fraz, grazzt. And many of then look to have had a personal involvement which is also unusual.

Anyway, on to modern day narfell. I think the war did kill much of narfells population. The battles killed many, the collapse of civilisation killed some more, the marauding demons, and the cold killed even more, then finally the suren came and killed any magic users they could find (seems to be a typical primitive tribal reaction) and enslaved the rest. So the modern nar are made of majority suren with say 30 percent ancient nar and then a tiny minority of others (sossrim, raumathar). I'm talking in genetic terms of course.

The damarans are an equal mix of jhaam, ancient nar, sossrim, and raumathar, with a dash of netherese.

Impiltur is mostly chondathan with a significant minority of ancient nar and damaran.

Vaasans are just damarans with extra sossrim and netherese added




On the Suren involvement afterwards, I'm feeling certain as well that they enslaved many Narfellians... and I'm also thinking that many of them returned to the hordelands with these Narfellian slaves in tow.

However, the question you asked before that is one of relevance. Why were all these demon lords interested in this fledgling empire? Narfell's capital was at Dun-Tharos, which we both know was previously Narathmault and was even at -10000DR noted as a place of great evil.

–970 DR
The Nentyarch of Tharos builds his capital at Dun-Tharos and forges the Crown of Narfell. He begins conquering the surrounding Nar kingdoms and uniting them under his rule.

–10400 DR
Dark elves of Clan Sethomiir travel by magic to the Riildath (present-day Rawlinswood and Forest of Lethyr) from Ilythiir, guided by the
hand of the balor Wendonai. They construct an underground fortress named Narathmault [–10000], “the Dark Pit,” at the site of presentday
Dun-Tharos, recognizing it as a place
of great evil.

-10000DR
— Like their kin elsewhere, the dark elves the dark elves of Narathmault [–10400, –9750] are transformed into drow by the will of the Seldarine, shattering their bindings over a host of fiends who swiftly turn on their former masters. Led by Undrek of Clan Sethomiir, the drow and their minotaur servants are forced to flee Narathmault, traveling south and east into the underground caverns beneath the present-day Plateau of Thay.

–9750 DR
The Riildath (present-day Rawlinswood and Forest of Lethyr) is settled by moon elves and gold elves of Shantel Othreier fleeing the persecution of the Vyshaan of Aryvandaar, becoming the realm of Lethyr [–2465]. The elves of the Riildath discover the horrors of Narathmault [–10000, –1015] and resolve to clear the forest of all N’Tel’Q uess (non-elves) so as to safeguard them from the foul legacies of Ilythiir.

–1015 DR
The Nar chieftain Tharos leads his people into the Riildath and discovers the ruins of Narathmault [–9750]. He and his people uncover many secrets of demonic lore, a legacy of the original Ilythiiri inhabitants, and soon abandon their gods and turn to the worship of the powers of the Abyss.



So, were the people of Narfell corrupted by their environment? They abandoned their gods and started worshipping demons. Thus, the various demon lords may have simply started helping them in order to gain a worshipper base. Or is it that there's something buried down in Narathmault/Dun-Tharos (homebrew Bheuristahl). It was a site of great evil even BEFORE the Ilythiiri elves were led there by Wendonai... so what happened there?

That brings me back to some of the ideas you and I had written up with Chupoclops having been in the "Dark Pit" eating spirits long ago, and then later the hags building an underground city there in roughly -27000 DR.

Originally, my thoughts were the hags breeding with the ogres of the giant empires. However, I could see the Hags and the Fomorians, Ogres, trolls, and Cyclops breeding. I could also see the hags enslaving the local surface minotaur and quaggoth populations and dragging them beneath the surface into the Dark Pit. Finally, I could definitely see goblin servants from the feywild essentially being slaves to this hag culture.

What if these hags started say sacrificing goblins, captured beings, etc... in order to make Larvae or soul-bound magic items, etc...

Finally, after this great evil hag culture eventually fell..... what other evil atrocities were committed in what would one day become Narathmault?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2016 :  10:49:26  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well I might include a few nods to narathmault but what would a demon lord find so interesting about a dead primordial. One might have a use for it but not 5.

I think I need to go back to basics, what does a demon want? To eat souls, destroy everything, and kill devils. Why haven't the endless hordes of demons done that already, because they are a planar dimension away from the material plane and need summoning to enter it, once there they still only have access to places they can travel.

I think the answer to why the demon lords are interested in narfell or were interested in narfell lies in the discrepancy between 2e and 4e lore on thakorsils seat because at the end of the day demons need access to other worlds more than anything else.

Also eltab himself was summoned, kossuth was an ur-hortha which I presumed meant avatar. So what is the hortha of kostchie. At first I was going to go with an aspect, but that's an artificial construct of the d20 rule system made to allow players to challenge the gods and I felt it never quite fitted in with demons and devils. So what about an emissary, a corruptor, a trusted servant or even offspring that was sent to tempt the last remaining giants of jhothun.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2016 :  10:06:53  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also, it appears so many rulers of narfell appear to have been sired by the demon lords themselves which I find improbable because it requires a personal visit of the demon lord into the bed chamber of a woman (who's is quite happy to die when the child is born) or for the woman to go to the abyss and meet the demon lord. I can see this scenario happening maybe once but that's it.

So how do demon lords father so many children. Could a ritual implant a seed of the demon lord into a recipient. What about a succubus or incubus? I'm sure I've read in places that they are barren (comes in handy when you are a born seducer) but there are instances of offspring from these demons. What if they cannot reproduce because they obviously lack a soul, but what if their demonic patron can infuse them with a twisted soul enough to allow the next coupling to be productive. Demonic genetics are likely complex but I could believe the child would then be of grazzts bloodline or whichever patron provided the soul.

Just a thought but it then provides a mean for any demon to spawn a child with any partner and be of any bloodline

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 14 Feb 2016 :  14:32:16  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Also, it appears so many rulers of narfell appear to have been sired by the demon lords themselves which I find improbable because it requires a personal visit of the demon lord into the bed chamber of a woman (who's is quite happy to die when the child is born) or for the woman to go to the abyss and meet the demon lord. I can see this scenario happening maybe once but that's it.


I'm pretty sure that most demon lords don't show up in their normal forms when they're looking to get it on with a human woman, and I'm equally sure they omit the detail about the upcoming death during childbirth.

Demon lords are not exactly known for being truthful and forthcoming with relevant info.

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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
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Posted - 14 Feb 2016 :  15:01:34  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That may be, but surely they have better things to do than turn up and inseminate everyone that fancies getting it on with a demon lord (and they might omit the gory details but history won't).
And how does an undead goat human father a child.
And these demon lords are still demons so they probably lack the basic human anatomy necessary to fertilise anything, never mind that they are also beings without souls that spring up spontaneously from the chaos of the abyss. The more I think about it the more I question whether any demon can procreate in a traditional manner with another being.
Souls must be important currency among the outer planes for a reason

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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 14 Feb 2016 :  19:09:31  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ooh and the 2nd ed death moon orb lore has a stray comment that helps explain what on earth Larloch was doing in Narfell. The timing in the change of dynasties couldn't be better placed either.

One could make a spurious link to Nentyarch and Netyarch through Larloch but I don't fancy that spurious a link.

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moonbeast
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Posted - 15 Feb 2016 :  12:44:01  Show Profile Send moonbeast a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Korginard

It's possible that people would want to hold on to the proud heritage of their past, but lets take a look at that past. Narfell is known to have been a land of Demon-Worshipers. It was also destroyed, quite spectacularly to boot. Now, taking pride in your ancestry is one thing, but what kind of stories would we be telling here? Crazy old Grandpa Lenny who worshiped a Dark Lord and sacrificed untold numbers of people to feed it's terrible hunger? Tales of our glorious ancestors who summoned the hoards of the Abyss to ravage the world and slaughter their enemies? Sure some people might convince themselves that it was simply what they had to do to survive against those nasty Raumvira, but generally speaking, most sane folk would not really take much pride in these kind of things. It may have been easier to set aside their Nar heritage and embrace a new culture instead.
I do however like the idea of some of the refugees transforming to survive. In looking at Demon Lords, it seems that Kostchchie in particular would be a good candidate to have transformed them to survive cold and hostile regions. They could have become Yetis as you suggested, or perhaps even Frost Giants or some demonic blend of Frost Giant and Human. They could also have been tainted with Lycanthropy, modeled after winter wolves or bears. I usually tend to think of Were-Bears as gentile giants, but a savage and brutal type of Were-Bear berserker would be truly terrifying!

You have a point. Although I will also point out that human history and story-telling gets skewed and redefined over the centuries. For example, take the Asiatic peoples of the Asian steppes and Eastern Europe. Around 1100 AD, they probably thought that the Mongol Hordes were vicious barbaric murderers who put to the sword entire cities and populations, etc. Now if you fast forward to the modern era, many of the countries (including countries like Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, Tataric provinces of Russia, etc) many of those people actually take some pride in their Mongol-Tatar past, culture and origins. They are proud that they were (partially) descended from fearsome steppe warriors and Khans that spanned 2 continents. Human viewpoint can change dramatically over several hundred years.

Edited by - moonbeast on 15 Feb 2016 12:46:39
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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 16 Feb 2016 :  07:48:52  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well the languages of the bloodstone lands are a real conundrum.
Raumathar and it's survivors speak an imaskari derived dialect as expected. But the nar and damarans speak an ulou language while impilturans speak chondathan.
I've tried my best to reconcile it by proposing that either the ancient nar or the suren spoke an ulou language but it's a real unknown.

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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
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Posted - 16 Feb 2016 :  11:07:23  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Nars' ancesotors, Arthraen, weren't originally as concentrated on north, being around the territories of Yuirwood, Aglarond, the Great Dale, so I doubt they were the origin of the Ulou group language used today by Nars.

Suren could be though an Ulou tribe, that traveled through the Sea of Moving Ice to Hordelands.

It's also possible that as the the Nar, or Suren language and culture, just mixed with the Ulou language of the northern tribes, until the language became more Ulou, than native Nar, and Suren(which probably was Imaskari derived).
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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 16 Feb 2016 :  13:00:25  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'll admit the suren speaking ulou is unlikely but as a people they suddenly swept out of the hagga Shan and conquered much of the hordelands before becoming naturalised by the Kao or being forced out by the shou and other imaskari successors.
The hagga Shan is a mountain range on the far north of the hordelands so it is more likely a horde migrated to the region than swelled in the mountains (although in a fantasy land they could have lived in caves surviving on mushrooms, or something else equally improbable in normal reality).
As for the arthraen, they may have started in the north and spread south (they were around for a long time before narfell). I'm thinking it unlikely the nar adopted ulou from the ulutiuns because if anything they would have adopted the language of their conquerors (suren) meaning that naric is a fusion of suren and nar languages so either of those two had to be ulou. The parallels are with the conquests of England over the years, each time the native and conquering language merged over time to give English which I believe is close in sentence structure to a Celtic language (back to front from Latin languages) but gets many words from Latin based languages.

However I have no idea what the real answer is which is why I left my theories as suitably vague.

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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2016 :  13:33:09  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Well I might include a few nods to narathmault but what would a demon lord find so interesting about a dead primordial. One might have a use for it but not 5.

I think I need to go back to basics, what does a demon want? To eat souls, destroy everything, and kill devils. Why haven't the endless hordes of demons done that already, because they are a planar dimension away from the material plane and need summoning to enter it, once there they still only have access to places they can travel.

I think the answer to why the demon lords are interested in narfell or were interested in narfell lies in the discrepancy between 2e and 4e lore on thakorsils seat because at the end of the day demons need access to other worlds more than anything else.

Also eltab himself was summoned, kossuth was an ur-hortha which I presumed meant avatar. So what is the hortha of kostchie. At first I was going to go with an aspect, but that's an artificial construct of the d20 rule system made to allow players to challenge the gods and I felt it never quite fitted in with demons and devils. So what about an emissary, a corruptor, a trusted servant or even offspring that was sent to tempt the last remaining giants of jhothun.



Hmmmmmmm..... what do demons want..... souls.... or spirits....

Hey, remember that theory of Chupoclops having been in Bheuristahl/Narathmault/Dun-Tharos prior to everything else? He was known for devouring spirits. What if some of the early spirits of Faerun are STILL trapped in the husk of its body at the bottom of this dark pit? Maybe even the spirits of some powerful primordials OR gods?



Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2016 :  13:37:20  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmmm, and if their is some sort of giant soul phylactery at the bottom of Dun-Tharos.... could this be what attracted the hags (some of whom may have went on to become nighthags)? Maybe the Narfellians were sacrificing their enemies to this pit as well, and during their delvings they may have freed a few of the demon lords that came to their aid (we are talking almost 12,000 years ago.... so some of the current demon lords may not have been near as powerful back then...... and some of them may have only gained their power after wheedling power here).

This idea too cheesy?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2016 :  13:40:10  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Also, it appears so many rulers of narfell appear to have been sired by the demon lords themselves which I find improbable because it requires a personal visit of the demon lord into the bed chamber of a woman (who's is quite happy to die when the child is born) or for the woman to go to the abyss and meet the demon lord. I can see this scenario happening maybe once but that's it.


I'm pretty sure that most demon lords don't show up in their normal forms when they're looking to get it on with a human woman, and I'm equally sure they omit the detail about the upcoming death during childbirth.

Demon lords are not exactly known for being truthful and forthcoming with relevant info.



Nor necessarily do the "current" rulers of Narfell care much for their offspring daughters when they can breed them to a demon lord in exchange for power..... just saying, may not have been by choice.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2016 :  13:54:59  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

I'll admit the suren speaking ulou is unlikely but as a people they suddenly swept out of the hagga Shan and conquered much of the hordelands before becoming naturalised by the Kao or being forced out by the shou and other imaskari successors.
The hagga Shan is a mountain range on the far north of the hordelands so it is more likely a horde migrated to the region than swelled in the mountains (although in a fantasy land they could have lived in caves surviving on mushrooms, or something else equally improbable in normal reality).
As for the arthraen, they may have started in the north and spread south (they were around for a long time before narfell). I'm thinking it unlikely the nar adopted ulou from the ulutiuns because if anything they would have adopted the language of their conquerors (suren) meaning that naric is a fusion of suren and nar languages so either of those two had to be ulou. The parallels are with the conquests of England over the years, each time the native and conquering language merged over time to give English which I believe is close in sentence structure to a Celtic language (back to front from Latin languages) but gets many words from Latin based languages.

However I have no idea what the real answer is which is why I left my theories as suitably vague.



I kind of picture the Suren as more of a conglomeration of cultures even before they invaded western Faerun. Basically, I picture them as invading, taking slaves from other cultures, breeding with them, then moving on. Thus, I'd picture them as having Shou, Imaskari, Mulan, Ulou, Raumvira, etc... long before they invaded Narfell and cut a swathe through the lands above Rashemen.

I also don't picture the Suren as having gone much beyond Narfell, since at that time, Damara was more icy, and I don't see them favoring icy. The Jhaam though, I see through necessity having spread into the area. Therefore, I don't see Narfell's influence on modern Damaran bloodlines as being a heavy influence.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2016 :  14:18:38  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's a lot of posts in a short while. Regarding the demon lords and breeding in on board with the lack of choice (although they could just run away) but some of the lineage in GHoTR implies voluntary breeding and rituals around the death of the mother as some kind of tradition. However does a demon lord heed every booty call made to him, they must get thousands a day and they have very busy schedules managing a near infinite layer of an infinite abyss. Maybe they did all turn up in narfell over the years but it just seems improbable to me therefore another explanation may be needed.

Regarding the nar influence on damara you are confusing several things. Firstly the modern and ancient nar, and the damaran people and damara the nation.
The ancient nar definitely had an influence on the damarans as the ancient nar were present in impiltur and the southern parts of damara (polten most likely was not ice covered and probably morov wasn't ice locked all year).
The damaran people have their origins the moment the jhaam landed in the unapproachable east around -200 dr. They were enslaved by the nar then abandoned by the nar, then mingled with the nar while welcoming other natives into their group and more waves of jhaam (probably 2 or 3 more). The damarans have to be a majority nar and jhaam mix given the proximity of impilturans and modern nar which reinforce the jhaam and nar bloodlines.

I like the idea of a big pit in dun Tharos that people were chucked into. The ancient nar are not really pertinent to what I'm doing but how they existed is as is what demon lords were physically involved in narfell and which were involved by proxy

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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2016 :  15:18:03  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, the Bulgars were originally Turkhic, but were assimilated within by the Slavic people's within, and who migrated feom elsewere,and current Bulgarians use a Slavic language. A similar situation could be with Suren and Ulou, especially since it seems the Suren were pseudo-TurkhicMongolian too...
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