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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
952 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Feb 2016 : 19:54:13
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Comments welcome.... Tried to make them balanced against other elven races, but they are still a bit more complex than your average PC race for 5E.
Elf, Lythari
The reclusive lythari, or ly-tel-quessir, are known as silver shadows among their elven brethren. These reclusive elves prefer to live life more often as wolves and more simply, eschewing the trappings of modernity. Much like a werewolf, which they are sometimes mistaken for, they can shapechange into the form of a wolf, but lack the hybrid form of most lycanthropes. Lythari also lack the cursed bite of lycanthropes, though they are capable of performing a special ritual that will turn a consenting elf into a lythari.
In wolf form, lythari are beautiful, with pale gray or silver fur and intelligent, blue or brown eyes. Wolf form lythari leave no impression of danger or ferocity, but rather seem friendly and companionable. An adult is the size of a small pony and might carry a man-sized ally if the need is great.
In the rare times they assume elf form, the lythari are beautiful and otherworldly, even for elves. They dress in furs, hides, and other natural garb decorating themselves with feathers, bone jewelry, and similar objects in a fashion more ancient than the oldest wood elf tribes. Tall and pale skinned, they have light blue or green eyes and silver hair.
Lythari Weapon Training. You have proficiency with the dagger, spear, and shortbow.
Mask of the Wild. You can attempt to hide even when you are only lightly obscured by foliage, heavy rain, falling snow, mist, and other natural phenomena
Shapechanger. You can shapechange into an enormous wolf the size of a pony. In that form, you take on many characteristics of a wolf and you gain the following benefits:
• Your Strength score increases by 4 and your Dexterity score increases by 2. Neither bonus can increase the score above 20.
• Your base walking speed increases to 50 ft.
• You gain +2 natural armor.
• You gain a natural melee bite attack with a reach of 5 ft. that deals 2d4 + Strength modifier piercing damage. If the target is a creature, it must succeed on a Strength saving throw (DC = 10 + Strength modifier) or be knocked prone.
• You gain advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on hearing or smell.
In wolf form, you cannot wear armor, wield weapons, speak—though you can communicate with other lythari in the manner of wolves—or cast spells that require a verbal or somatic component.
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2016 : 23:07:12
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I'd actually really like to play this race...
Do you think some type of resistance to the effects of harsh weather and cold might be appropriate? I remember them walking around nearly naked in cold climes without a complaint. Would it imbalance the race to give them cold resistance?
Also, wolves have a walking speed of 40ft. Were you likening them more to a Winter Wolf or Worg? |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2016 : 00:13:51
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| Just a note on phrasing. There is no such thing as natural armor "bonus" in 5e. You would instead state that its "natural armor" is 12. This would simply be its armor class unless a heavier armor is placed over it. The other way to phrase it would be simply giving a +x bonus to armor class. That all being said, that +2 is a little steep when compared to various lyncanthropes found in the monster manual, all of whom only gain a +1 bonus. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2016 : 09:43:09
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| What about immunity or damage reduction for non-silver weaponry? |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2016 : 11:05:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
What about immunity or damage reduction for non-silver weaponry?
They're not lycanthropes. |
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JohnLynch
Learned Scribe
Australia
243 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2016 : 11:29:46
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Is this a base race? Looking at it as a base race (and NOT as a subrace) here are my thoughts:
Lack of ability score modifier in elven form is a problem. As is the lack of speed (assuming 30 foot).
Lythari Weapon Training is weak on the verge of pointless. There are very few classes that will benefit from this weapon selection. I'd be inclined to remove it.
Mask of the Wild is a nice touch. 5e tells us this is the equivalent of a free cantrip which makes it perfectly fine as a base Lythari ability.
+4 Strength and +2 Dexterity is problematic. This is effectively +2 to hit and damage and +1 AC. I think +1 Dexterity in Elf form and some better elf weapons with elven weapon training would be better than +2 dexterity when in wolf form.
+4 Strength is just flat out too good. Compared to a human +4 Strength is the equivalent of +2 Dexterity and +2 strength when in wolf form would be better than what you have here. This is too good.
50 foot base speed is too good. This is better than wood elves and barbarians, is almost as good as a rogue's dash ability and is equal to a 10th level monk's speed improvement. Bring it down to 35 feet speed IMO.
As their signature ability, bite attack + trip with bite is fine. This is the equivalent of darkvision, fey ancestry and trance. That's not a problem. It might be verging onto the "too good" phase, but given you don't get a strength bonus unless in wolf form, there's no real issue here.
Advantage on wisdom (perception) checks could be moving too far into "too good" territory. I'd be swapping this out for keen senses + darkvision.
------
Conclusions: As a Lythari you are giving up:
- A +2 to an ability score that is always active
Darkvision
Fey Ancestry
Trance
Elf Weapon Training (just not worth it IMO)
In return you get:
- A +2 ability score that is active when it counts
- Speed boost that is active when it counts
- The ability to trip people when you attack them successfully
The above assumes that you swap out advantage on perception when in wolf form for keen senses that is always active. If that seems a bit too weak, give them darkvision (they should have it IMO as both elves and wolves have darkvision).
Overall I think you're in the right ballpark. I just think you need to tone down the ability boosters and look at what actual benefit the racial traits are really giving the player. |
DM of the Realms: A blog for my Forgotten Realms adventures. |
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JohnLynch
Learned Scribe
Australia
243 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2016 : 11:32:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
Would it imbalance the race to give them cold resistance?
IMO yes. However giving them immunity to damage from cold environments wouldn't be too bad IMO. That could be something that's only active when in wolf form. |
DM of the Realms: A blog for my Forgotten Realms adventures. |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
952 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2016 : 14:04:29
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Here was my thinking on some of the comments. So the lythari do get the base elf abilities. I was not clear on that. My apologies. And sleyvas could catch on some of the language.
They have been tweaked from edition to edition and in the books. I based their "lycanthrope-like" stats on something more than a wolf and a bit less than a worg or dire wolf. They are described as big as a pony, that's a freakin' huge wolf, but it isn't size Large in D&D parlance, so smaller than a worg or dire wolf. That said, I really hemmed and hawed about using the wild shape rules, which are great for a quick change without disrupting game play, but in the end decided they would be somewhat less fulfilling from a player perspective when the player would have ample time to lay out what their bonuses would be.
Regarding the natural armor class of 12. It's in line with a big magic wolf and basically means they have a similar AC in wolf form as they would in elf form since they can't wear armor in wolf form, but maybe I should lower to +1.
Speaking to the stat bonuses in wolf form. They are a big deal, but I didn't want to sell them short either. They turn into a pony sized wolf. It's clearly advantageous for them to do so. That said, that is why I didn't give them a base ability bonus for the subrace. They still get their elf bonus to Dex, but no additional bonuses for the subrace.
I also hemmed and hawed about giving them the higher speed of the wild elf, since they are clearly wild elves, but in the end settled on them getting the higher speed in wolf form.
All that said, the wolf form is great for a lot of things, but it has serious limitations in its ability to grow with the character. There's a little room, and it should always be decent, but I think at lower levels, it will be better than at higher levels. For example, wolves cannot manipulate tools, wear armor, wield weapons, etc.
Generally speaking they have not been described as having a lycanthropes weapon immunities, which as a player race would be too powerful in my opinion.
Finally, I thought about giving them some cold protection too, but regular wolves don't have it and it already seemed on the edge of being too powerful.
Thanks for the comments all. |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2016 : 15:29:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
They're not lycanthropes.
I know it, you know it, but do THEY know it? 
Actually, in 2e they were a special kind of lycanthrope and so were immune to non-silver weapons.
Elves of Evermeet says:
"In the same manner as ordinary lycanthropes, lythari may be hit only by silver or enchanted weapons.";
Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume IV, which revised them, says:
"In the same manner as ordinary lycanthropes, lythari can be hit only by silver or weapons of at least +1 enchantment when in wolf form." |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 02 Feb 2016 15:30:16 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2016 : 17:10:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
They're not lycanthropes.
I know it, you know it, but do THEY know it?
Actually, in 2e they were a special kind of lycanthrope and so were immune to non-silver weapons.
Elves of Evermeet says:
"In the same manner as ordinary lycanthropes, lythari may be hit only by silver or enchanted weapons.";
Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume IV, which revised them, says:
"In the same manner as ordinary lycanthropes, lythari can be hit only by silver or weapons of at least +1 enchantment when in wolf form."
I stand corrected.  |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
952 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2016 : 17:30:50
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| At the same time, I don't remember them ever shrugging off hits from normal weapons in the novels, but I didn't go back and double check. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2016 : 18:51:35
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quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
At the same time, I don't remember them ever shrugging off hits from normal weapons in the novels, but I didn't go back and double check.
I don't recall that, either, at least not in Elaine's books. Those eastern ones seemed a separate breed, to me.
Elaine's lythari also had an ability to move to an alternate plane that resembled but was not Faerie. It wasn't clear if this was an innate ability not in any rulebook, or if they were using portals.
Either way, the eastern lythari didn't have that ability or even refer to it; my personal theory is that they traded or lost that by bonding to that local spirit thing (I've only read that book once, and it was a long time ago). |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
952 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2016 : 20:53:53
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| Agreed Wooly. I always thought the portals to the Feywild worked exactly as they were spelled out in 3E and 4E. Perhaps, I should make them Fey like eladrin were instead of humanoid (although eladrin's in the 5E DMG aren't). |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2016 : 21:23:47
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quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
Agreed Wooly. I always thought the portals to the Feywild worked exactly as they were spelled out in 3E and 4E. Perhaps, I should make them Fey like eladrin were instead of humanoid (although eladrin's in the 5E DMG aren't).
Using the crossroads and backroads approach works... But since it's never before been described as a racial ability, I would spin it a bit differently. Perhaps something like the fey'ri, with a list of abilities they could choose from. Or maybe a lythari racial class, that gives some other bonuses and that sidestepping ability.
Those are my thoughts. I am not, however, a game designer-type.  |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2016 : 23:20:43
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| No comment on the lythari. I'm just thrilled to see Tom Costa playing in the Realms again! :) |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2016 : 00:08:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
I'm just thrilled to see Tom Costa playing in the Realms again! :)
I, too, was quite stoked to see him pop back up, here! |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
952 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2016 : 02:03:56
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| Thanks Gents. |
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JohnLynch
Learned Scribe
Australia
243 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2016 : 08:31:50
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quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
Here was my thinking on some of the comments. So the lythari do get the base elf abilities. I was not clear on that. My apologies.
I wrote my post twice. First time I assumed it was a subrace, but after seeing how good they were on their own merits I rewrote it (feedback for lythari as a subrace was essentially this is way too good and needs to be pared back significantly).
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
All that said, the wolf form is great for a lot of things, but it has serious limitations in its ability to grow with the character. There's a little room, and it should always be decent, but I think at lower levels, it will be better than at higher levels. For example, wolves cannot manipulate tools, wear armor, wield weapons, etc.
Can lythari shape change at will? I saw no daily limitation (might have missed it though) and if it is at will none of these limitations are meaningful. You rarely need to manipulate objects in combat, so they can freely change back to elf form whenever they need to speak or manipulate objects.
Armour and weapons are also meaningless. See comparisons below.
Level 1 Lythari (STR 14, DEX 15+1)
Wolf form (STR 18, DEX 17)
AC 15
Claw Attack: +6; 2d4+4 damage (9)
Elven form
AC 13 (higher if armoured)
Rapier: +5; 1d8+3 damage (7.5)
Longbow Attack: +5; 1d8+3 damage (7.5)
Level 1 Human (STR 15+1)
AC 14 (ring mail)
Greatsword: +5; 2d6+3 damage (10)
Spear: +5; 1d6+3 damage (6.5)
In total Lythari get +1 AC, +1 attack roll, -1 damage. So that's why I'm not seeing any real limitations. |
DM of the Realms: A blog for my Forgotten Realms adventures. |
Edited by - JohnLynch on 03 Feb 2016 08:36:42 |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
952 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2016 : 01:38:52
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John, yes lythari can shapechange at will.
And I totally agree they are slightly better as wolves at first level, but that will change as they move up in levels, get a magic weapon, gets other abilities, etc.
I don't see that as a game breaker, but I agree it's on the edge. I'm not quite sure how else to portray them without grossly overcomplicating things. |
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JohnLynch
Learned Scribe
Australia
243 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2016 : 11:36:09
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quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
And I totally agree they are slightly better as wolves at first level, but that will change as they move up in levels
I think you mean humans, not wolves. And I disagree that they get less powered as time goes on. Here's a level 12 comparison:
Lythari Barbarian Level 10 (STR 14+2, DEX 15+1+3, CON 13+1)
Wolf Form (STR 20, DEX 20, CON 14)
HP: 113
AC: 19 (natural armour, dexterity and constitution)
Speed: 60
Claw Attack: +9/+9; 2d4+5 damage (10) per attack
Elven form
AC 14 (higher if armoured)
Rapier: +8/+8; 1d8+4 damage (8.5) per attack
Speed: 40
Longbow: +8/+8; 1d8+4 damage (8.5) per attack
Human Barbarian Level 10 (STR 15+1+4, DEX 14+2, CON 13+1)
HP: 137
AC: 15 (dexterity and constitution)
Greataxe: +9/+9; 1d12+5 damage (11.5) per attack
Spear: +9/+9; 1d6+5 damage (8.5) per attack
Feats: Toughness
Humans get a slight edge (they get +24 more hit points, +1 point of damage on average and deal +4.5 more damage on a critical hit), but lythari get +4 AC, +2 on initiative rolls, +2 on dexterity saving throws and the vast array of standard elven traits.
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
get a magic weapon, gets other abilities, etc.
Magic items (including weapons) aren't built into the advancement of characters. You could very well go through 20 levels and never get a magic item. However, yes, most characters will get magic items. But as a GM, unless I'm actively seeking to disadvantage the lythari player, magic items will be handed out that they can use (such as belts of incredible dexterity, or belts of mighty constitution, or a whole array of other magic items that would sensibly work on a wolf). If my players are playing cooperatively than they will optimise who gets what magic item. As for other abilities, totem barbarians work perfectly fine with a lythari. Now it the only subclass that doesn't get useless abilities (fighting styles do not work in wolf form and even beserkers get abilities that require abilities) but that's okay if I was planning on playing a totem barbarian ;)
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
I don't see that as a game breaker, but I agree it's on the edge.
Fair enough. I do admit that not being able to use manufactured weapons is more of a disadvantage than I initially thought it would be (at least until fighting styles and feats are invented to help out characters that do use natural attacks).
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
I'm not quite sure how else to portray them without grossly overcomplicating things.
For me the biggest culprit is the +4 strength. Remove that OR tone it down to a +1 and remove the wolf form Dex bonus would be a big improvement. I'd be tempted to change the trip attack to instead become damage OR trip and remove the saving throw OR keep it and give creatures larger than the Lythari advantage on the saving throw. With those changes this subrace would be much more in line with the other PHB races.
OR
Keep the Lythari exactly as it is but require that the wild shape ability can only be used once per short rest. Naratively it makes sense (I'm assuming in the novels you don't have Lythari changing shape every 6 seconds) and it makes those disadvantages (cannot speak, cannot manipulate objects) genuine disadvantages. |
DM of the Realms: A blog for my Forgotten Realms adventures. |
Edited by - JohnLynch on 05 Feb 2016 11:38:20 |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
952 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2016 : 16:08:34
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| I like the short rest thing. I think that works well. Thanks for helping me think this through. I really appreciate the honest feedback. |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
952 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2016 : 21:46:49
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So here's the redo on the mechanics....
The lythari subrace has the elf traits in the Player’s Handbook, plus the subrace traits below.
Lythari Weapon Training. You have proficiency with the dagger, spear, and shortbow.
Mask of the Wild. You can attempt to hide even when you are only lightly obscured by foliage, heavy rain, falling snow, mist, and other natural phenomena
Shapechanger. You can shapechange into an enormous wolf the size of a pony. You can use this trait twice—once to turn into a wolf and once to turn back into an elf (or vice versa). You regain expended uses when you finish a short or long rest.
In wolf form, you take on many characteristics of a wolf and the following rules apply:
• Your Strength score increases by 2 and your Dexterity score increases by 2. Neither bonus can increase the score above 20.
• Your base walking speed increases to 50 ft.
• You gain a natural armor class of 11.
• You gain a natural melee bite attack with a reach of 5 ft. that deals 2d4 + Strength modifier piercing damage. If the target is a creature, it must succeed on a Strength saving throw (DC = 10 + Strength modifier) or be knocked prone.
• You gain advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on hearing or smell.
• You can speak with wolves and other canines. Your ability to clearly convey your ideas is diminished with other wild canines, such as coyotes and foxes, and further diminished with domesticated canines, such as dogs. It as if these two groups speak with a very different accent or in a different dialect.
• You retain the benefit of any features from your race, class, or other source and can use them if your wolf form is physically capable of doing so, including your elven darkvision.
• In wolf form, your equipment falls to the ground in your space, and you cannot wear armor, wield weapons, manipulate most objects, speak—though you can communicate with other lythari in the manner of wolves—or cast spells that require a verbal or somatic component. Shapechanging, however, doesn’t break your concentration on a spell you’ve already cast or prevent you from taking actions that are part of spell, such as call lightning, that you’ve already cast.
At 11th level, your Strength score in wolf form increases by an additional +2 (total +4) and your natural armor class in wolf form increases to 12.
Speak with Wolves. Through sound and gesturers, you can communicate simple ideas with canines of all sorts, especially wolves. |
Edited by - TomCosta on 07 Feb 2016 21:47:56 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4426 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2016 : 06:45:06
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| In wolf form, does this double the total Dex score since Elves, regardless of sub-type, already receive a +2 to Dexterity? |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
952 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2016 : 13:56:19
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| Yes, they have a total of +4 to Dex in wolf form (+2 from elf and +2 from wolf). This is the reason they don't get a subrace ability bonus. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4426 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2016 : 05:33:59
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At first I thought that was too much but realistically the fact that their armor drops to AC 11 and can't benefit from armor or shields, they're only at AC 16 (with Dex 20). Now that changes of you have one multiclass into Monk to double dip with Wisdom. Even still, that's AC 21 with Dex/Wis @ 20 and no magic items.
I'd have to Playtest one for a better understanding but initial looks appear fairly balanced. |
Edited by - Diffan on 10 Feb 2016 05:36:13 |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
952 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2016 : 15:27:45
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| Thanks. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2016 : 17:58:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
Agreed Wooly. I always thought the portals to the Feywild worked exactly as they were spelled out in 3E and 4E. Perhaps, I should make them Fey like eladrin were instead of humanoid (although eladrin's in the 5E DMG aren't).
Using the crossroads and backroads approach works... But since it's never before been described as a racial ability, I would spin it a bit differently. Perhaps something like the fey'ri, with a list of abilities they could choose from. Or maybe a lythari racial class, that gives some other bonuses and that sidestepping ability.
Those are my thoughts. I am not, however, a game designer-type.
Elaine's most recent excerpt refers to the gate as being something in a specific place, and usable by others -- so that answers that question. |
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5E lythari conversion
