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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Jan 2016 : 10:26:37
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
What I'm suggesting is that for these less common elves - oftentimes elves who have chosen lives of service or defense - it should be possible to be deserving of a moonblade.
The point of Mrs. Elaine Cunningham herself, I say again (because she wrote about it specifically), is that there were, yes, deserving elves of the less common type, but the swords did not choose individuals, but lineages. So, a worthy individual sometimes was not chosen because maybe his or her descendants would not prove a lineage worthy to Evermeet's throne.
EDIT: Then again, this was Mrs. Cunningham's original take on the moonblades. When Mr. Baker published a short story in Realms of the Elves with a gold elf moonfighter, she elegantly reconsidered, considering the rights of the stories do not belong to her. Some years later she even considered having Azariah Craulnober as one of these exceptions, she being a sun elf daughter to the famous moon elf crime lors, Elaith. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 24 Jan 2016 10:40:55 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2016 : 16:36:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
What I'm suggesting is that for these less common elves - oftentimes elves who have chosen lives of service or defense - it should be possible to be deserving of a moonblade.
The point of Mrs. Elaine Cunningham herself, I say again (because she wrote about it specifically), is that there were, yes, deserving elves of the less common type, but the swords did not choose individuals, but lineages. So, a worthy individual sometimes was not chosen because maybe his or her descendants would not prove a lineage worthy to Evermeet's throne.
EDIT: Then again, this was Mrs. Cunningham's original take on the moonblades. When Mr. Baker published a short story in Realms of the Elves with a gold elf moonfighter, she elegantly reconsidered, considering the rights of the stories do not belong to her. Some years later she even considered having Azariah Craulnober as one of these exceptions, she being a sun elf daughter to the famous moon elf crime lors, Elaith.
As I recall, Rich Baker later admitted he was unaware that moonblades were supposed to be a moon elf only thing. |
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Joran Nobleheart
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2016 : 17:36:41
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But if I'm not mistaken, Daried (I think that was the elf's name in the Baker story) didn't carry the moonblade. It was in the crypt of his family's home in Cormanthor forest and was dormant, buried with one of his family members. A human had broken into his home, broke through the elven wards to protect the estate, etc. The human claimed the moonblade as a share of his loot and put it over the mantle in his home for years, until the fey'ri burned his home and they took possession of it.
I feel that particular story isn't canon as it goes against established lore. It was just a poorly conceived tale in my mind, but I have many issues with Baker as a storyteller. I do respect him as a game designer, though. |
Paladinic Ethos
Saint Joran Nobleheart |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2016 : 22:46:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
What I'm suggesting is that for these less common elves - oftentimes elves who have chosen lives of service or defense - it should be possible to be deserving of a moonblade.
The point of Mrs. Elaine Cunningham herself, I say again (because she wrote about it specifically), is that there were, yes, deserving elves of the less common type, but the swords did not choose individuals, but lineages. So, a worthy individual sometimes was not chosen because maybe his or her descendants would not prove a lineage worthy to Evermeet's throne.
EDIT: Then again, this was Mrs. Cunningham's original take on the moonblades. When Mr. Baker published a short story in Realms of the Elves with a gold elf moonfighter, she elegantly reconsidered, considering the rights of the stories do not belong to her. Some years later she even considered having Azariah Craulnober as one of these exceptions, she being a sun elf daughter to the famous moon elf crime lors, Elaith.
As I recall, Rich Baker later admitted he was unaware that moonblades were supposed to be a moon elf only thing.
My response to all that is simple. In Elaine's Evermeet novel, it doesn't say it is impossible for other elves to draw a moonblade - just unlikely. It is unlikely that you will win money in a casino but people do it every day.
Beyond that - pretty much every stated fact (aside from the specific powers of her Moonblade) that Elaine created in Elfshadow has since been changed - for example, we know they were not conceived or created in Myth Drannor or by the council of Myth Drannor but this is a "fact" they learn about such blades in Candlekeep (the fictitious one, not the forum :D ).
Since you are very keen on the idea of judging a family line, I'd ask this: would the Seldarine allow to be created (under their supervision, and with their help - as is stated in the Evermeet novel) numerous elven artifacts thats only function would be to turn every elf in a given family to ashes - no matter their personal character - until they all became to afraid to try or had been wiped out completely? Of course not. That is just plain ridiculous. If such were tried I would expect Corellon to manifest and stop such blasphemy.
I'd also point out that the manner of judging a worthy family was not whether they were able to claim any moonblade - it was if they were able create and pass down a moonblade that was fit for the ruler of all elves and whether the clan had enough character to possess more moonblades than any other elven clan. |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2016 : 10:11:27
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You can freely disagree, but what I'm saying is what is written. I'm not saying Mrs. Cunningham is perfect (although I truly respect and admire her work), and I'm specially not saying ELVES, or even the Seldarine, are perfect... Then again, look some tidbits of what Mrs. Cunningham said about this issue through the years, here in Candlekeep:
"Yes, I am deathly weary of all the talk about a novel-induced stereotype of "moon elf GOOD, gold elf BAD." This simplistic summation ignores the many noble, goodaligned gold elf characters in the FR books to focus on the few gold elf villains. It also fails to acknowledge the moon elf rogue Elaith Craulnober, who is perhaps the best known of the not-so-good moon elves.
(...)
Elven lore abounds in magical swords. The moonblades had a limited, specific function: to select a royal family from among the moon elf clans. It makes sense to me that some high elves would take exception to this and try to claim a sword, but it does not make sense that some sun elves would succeed. That's rather like bringing in a boatload of Danes and another of Greeks to Camelot so they could try to tug Excalaber out of the stone. Some of those hopefuls might have been honorable men, great warriors or philosophers, or damn fine vikings, but they wouldn't be the king the particular magic of sword and stone would recognize.
(...)
No, you're right: the original creators of the moonblades had the moon elf race in mind. Nearly every wielder of these swords has been a full-blooded moon elf. The exception is Arilyn, a half-elf. A possible future exception is Azariah Craulnober, who takes after her mother, a gold elf and who may or may not be able to claim the sword Elaith holds in trust for her. Of course anyone may change Realmslore to suit his or her campaign, but the following reflects my understanding of moonblades.
(...)
One of the frustrations I've had over the years with moonblades is that the Arthurian nature - the essence of the thing - has been diluted and distorted by overuse. Imagine how different the Matter of Britain would appear if you had a bunch of minor lords setting up stone sheaths for their own swords. (Hey, if Arthur can do it...) Or if Saxons, Irishmen, Breton princes, and Welsh scullery maids all contended that THEY had a right to wield Excalibre, because weren't they "worthy" in their own right and their own sphere? And hey, how come only a king of the Britons can pull the sword from the stone? Let's "rehabilitate" the Saxons by giving them Excalibre knockoffs.
(...)
Keep in mind the swords' original purpose: To select a royal family in a manner that would avoid the sort of wholesale bloodshed the elves knew during the Crown Wars. To this end, families that passed swords along in a simple lineage, father/mother to son/daughter, were considered to be evidence of a line worthy of the throne."
EDIT: As for your question if "would the Seldarine allow to be created (...) numerous elven artifacts thats only function would be to turn every elf in a given family to ashes", SOME families fell at the first moment (as some moon elf lost their members), but let's consider that: 1) most gold elves would be of the proud type, as I said before, for the tendency of their race: the gold elf clans of the time were mostly responsible for the Crown Wars, and in fact the moonblade drawing ceremony ended up humbling, in a way, some of these clans; 2) the clean-hearted and wise ones more probably sheathed their blades, understanding its purpose and inclination (like the Durothil you cited); 3) no clan was wiped out to its last member, for once again, if the elf trying to clame the blade was the last of his line he would survive, and the blade become dormant; 4) moonblades were not so numerous, and its creation was a unique moment in elven history. Mrs. Cunningham declares that no moonblade was ever created after that, or would be again. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 25 Jan 2016 10:59:03 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2016 : 16:02:03
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The other point I was making earlier is that moonblades have evolved DRASTICALLY since Elaine wrote them up. With the expansion/flushing out of FR history - they became truly ancient weapons created long before anyone ever thought about a city called Myth Drannor. (About 7 years before :P ). This is just one of many examples about how they have been developed over time, other being that the blades must be directly handed down from one wielder to another (later we would learn that a blade not intended for an heir could be tried by anyone in the clan), or that failing to draw one was an instant death sentence. In fact, given the current lore of moonblades, the fact Arlyn's has only 9 runes/powers makes pretty much no sense as that would mean it had less than 1 wielder per 1000 years.
Also, Elaine's quote there says: "The original creators of the moonblades had the moon elf race in mind" but the text of Evermeet bends this saying only that they were the most likely to posses the desired traits, not that others were simply not qualified. Ethlando's spirit and sense of judgement was tied to the moonblades to judge whether someone facing the test was
I refer again to the Durothil moonblade. Their clan and probably another hundred other clans claimed a blade there that could not be drawn on that day. There is no evidence anywhere you look (in either novels or sourcebooks) with the Seldarine culling the elven people to create a stronger race - which would be all those 100 swords, created at the command and with the aid of the gods, would EVER be capable of doing. That is the behavior of Lloth, who does not care for her people.
On the other hand, the creation of weapons that demand more from a clan of elves - that they could aspire to and attain if they lived by the ideals sough by the blade - is exactly the kind of thing that Corellon would be into.
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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe
USA
297 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2016 : 05:50:09
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| It seems that moonblade = moon elves, would be kinda basic. Why not just have the sun elves have sunblades? |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jan 2016 : 17:58:41
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quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
It seems that moonblade = moon elves, would be kinda basic. Why not just have the sun elves have sunblades?
Actually, originally it was the other way around. Sun blades were a creation of early era D&D and the first "moonblades" were similar and mirrored their powers - not sure their source but it was probably Dragon Magazine. If memory serves both were in Enc. Magica. These were not the moonblades of the Tel'Quess of the Realms, however.
Also, I'd agree moon -> moon is basic... but I think the entire evolution of the moonblade (both in her own works and in source books) argues against Elaine's original thought that only moon elves could be moonfighters.
To be honest - if this were the case I'd expect the more arrogant gold elves to get together and hunt down the 40 or so surviving moonblades 1 by 1. |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2016 : 19:45:24
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Actually, originally it was the other way around. Sun blades were a creation of early era D&D and the first "moonblades" were similar and mirrored their powers - not sure their source but it was probably Dragon Magazine.
(...)
Mage, can you find this source? I'd like very much to see it!  |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2384 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2016 : 22:18:18
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
If you make the moonblades a secret tool of evil to divide and weaken the elven race then it makes perfect sense to have the blades favour only one subrace.
More divide and weaken than the elves did on their own?
Even after the Crown Wars there was The Seven Citadels' War...
quote:
Look what venali starym did to get his hands on one.
What his case have to do with this?
quote:
Lolth isolated and corrupted the illythiiri to turn them towards her.
Lolth? I thought the other elves isolated them (and themselves) and eventually sent them away. Maybe the latter involved a little sabotage from Lolth (or Ghanadaur), but not blatant enough that it was obvious - and it's not like the elves in question tried hard to reverse the unintended part of the effect.
quote:
Originally posted by Joran Nobleheart
But if I'm not mistaken, Daried (I think that was the elf's name in the Baker story) didn't carry the moonblade. It was in the crypt of his family's home in Cormanthor forest and was dormant, buried with one of his family members.
Which means there's no problem at all.
We know that even large clans tend toward one subrace, but it's more consequences of "either-or" lineage and predisposition to certain lifestyles, not some sort of selective breeding program. Mixed noble Houses aren't that rare. Starym is given as Gold/Silver on the list in Cormanthyr, others have an elf of subrace other than prevalent on the list of high-ups, too (Audark, Durothil).
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Beyond that - pretty much every stated fact (aside from the specific powers of her Moonblade) that Elaine created in Elfshadow has since been changed - for example, we know they were not conceived or created in Myth Drannor or by the council of Myth Drannor but this is a "fact" they learn about such blades in Candlekeep
Humans may or may not be bothered to give the three names for one Elven territory.
quote:
Each elven civilization at that time created at least 25 moonblades for their clans, both noble elder Houses to commoner clans alike.
...
Elven Court [...] was chosen as one of the sites for the creation of the moonblades, and the priests and High Mages created 25 of the mystical blades here (though legends speak of the moonblades numbering near 100 in all).
- Cormanthyr
So the precise tracking would be kind of hard, as we see the elves themselves lost it long ago.
But a Moonflower blade - and the one which won the game, at that - was seen in Cormanthyr for a while.
quote:
By the Year of the Fallen Tower, between 30 to 50 moonblades still touch the Weave. Of them, only two moonblades are found
within Cormanthyr's glades. Zaor Moonflower wears and wields one with honor among the Akh'Velahrn, and this is the only one known.
- Cormanthyr
Whether their set was from the batch of Arcorar, who knows, but this evidence may well have been taken into account. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 25 Apr 2016 22:28:52 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2016 : 09:08:14
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So a few musings regarding elves, evermeet, and thr moonblades.
We know malkizid manipulated the elves into creating evermeet. Why wouldnt the elves want an island all to themselves untouched by other sentient creatures that was like a little piece of heaven on earth.
So first things first. Why would malkizid want to have evermeet created. What purpose does it serve for him.
To answer that what does malkizid want? Im thinking it might be a combination of revenge upon his enemies while at the same time getting him back into heaven (either by invite or by force)
We know that for some reason malkizid hates the elves and presumably corellon and the seldarine. We also know he is a fallen outsider. What if malkizid was yet another victim of araushnee's manipulations and was cast out for his actions. What if malkizid was once a resident of arvandor.
So heres a proposal.
Malkizid helps get evermeet created. It rips a chunk of rock off the coast of the western heartlands and sends it careering west into the oceans. This effect ripples back and forth in time and in so doing it destroys an underwater batrachi empire before it even begins (prompting them to change into an amphibious race and move onto land).
What if the sundering is actually what broke up the torillian equivalent of pangea, fracturing the tectonic plates, moving the continents apart etc.
What if there was once a moon elven nation in the western heartlands and the sundering destroyed it before it was created thus wiping it from the records of history. Only a few planewalkers and non native elves were unaffected. So when the elves arrive on evermeet they find some already here (remnants of an empire destroyed before it began) some of those elves fled before the vyshaan arrived or were removed by the vyshaan and went to other continents.
This empire could have been an opponent of the vyshaan and wary of malkizid before they were destroyed back and forth in time. Thus one of malkizid's goals was achieved.
Evermeet then becomes a bastion of the vyshaan empire and the gold elves. Thus segregating them and placing them firmly under malkizids influence which meets another goal.
Then the plan starts to go wrong. Wars happen, the illythiiri get cast down, and the vyshaan lose and are exiled.
At some point during this timeline the Seldarine ascend to godhood and corellon chooses as his plane the old realm of malkizid. As an even greater snub he makes evermeet linked with arvandor so that the elves can live there forever.
Malkizid is really annoyed so comes up with another plan, using lolths own method of dividing the elven subraces and pitting them against one another.
He manipulates ethlando (who is just an unwitting pawn, even the old, wise, and powerful can be manipulated through their personality flaws, look at saruman). Ethlando proposes the moonblades, a series of unique magic artefacts that together will select a true ruler of all the elves and prevent a repeat of the crown wars.
Each noble house crafts and enchants its own sword (the swords come in all shapes and sizes and enchantments and range of power) and then each major realm assembles its high mages to cast a ritual that will bond the blades to ethlando's ritual (that he already cast and sacrificed himself into, which malkizid wanted because he knew of the old mans prejudice against gold elves).
The bonding rituals were repeated several times through the ages, one in -10000 at the start, another in -9000 dr and again much later in myth drannor. Unfortunately the knowledge of this ritual was ultimately lost during myth drannors fall so no more moonblades can be made without malkizids help.
The blades were bound to evermeet and the souls of elves. It had a number of odd side effects. First being that the souls of the wielders werr trapped in the sword. Second that the souls of all elves perishing on toril went to evermeet rather than arvandor. Third that the elves on evermeet became almost immortal.
Ethlandos sentience ensured that gold elves were actively discriminated against and the blades helped divide the elven people further (witness the gold elves actions after the death of eltargrim as to what happens when the gold elves feel they are not getting their rightful due).
When the king was chosen ethlandos soul and the souls of the other blades were released to evermeet. The blades then fall solely under malkizids sway (as the only living being who knows the details of ethlandos original ritual.
All he needs do then is help aid the assassination of the current king and then he can get started on the next stage of his plan.
He awakens dormant moonblades, particularly gold elf blades, and reactivates the king blade process which will result in a new king being chosen.
Gold elves will unite behind their new monarch and the elves will be plunged into civil war. Elves all over faerun will die and their souls will be trapped in evermeet. Then malkizid can use those souls as a bargaining chip to blackmail his way back into arvandor and have corellon cast out (as in give me my home back or ill sell the soul of every elf who ever lived in the past 14000 years to the devils, demons, and yugoloths).
At least thats an idea of where i want to go with this. The blades are as stated in history, but there is a hidden secret evil within that no one knows about.
And before you say the gods wouldnt allow, i'll just say that lolth and the other evil gods would so the seldarine can do nothing directly without risking divine war, so it will all have to be resolved through mortals, aka adventurers. Which is why gods dont run around smiting everyone who does something evil, because they cant.
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2016 : 13:20:56
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Hmm... According to his write up Malkazid was a servant of the Seldarine who was cast down for supporting Lloth... then he was in hell... then he was exiled from there too. So that part seems out of order.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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BrianDavion
Seeker
71 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2016 : 11:12:47
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| The problem with "Moon Elves = Moon Blades" is how elves work. when two elven sub races mate, the result is the children are one of those two subraces. Azariah Craulnober is HARDLY the first "Sun Elf child of a Moon Elf Sire" in forgotten realms history. I don't think it's entirely out of the realm of the possiable that there are sun elf and moon elf branches of every major elven house. I can't belive that if a moonfighter happens to have a sun elven child, the child by virtue of the Moon Elf choosing to marry outside their subrace. this is DOUBLY true if the blades are supposed to choose a monarch for ALL elves. as surely you don't want a royal line refusing to associate with and wed other subraces. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2016 : 15:48:20
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quote:
Originally posted by BrianDavion
as surely you don't want a royal line refusing to associate with and wed other subraces.
There you go -- that's the reason the focus is on moon elves. They're the ones most willing to go out and associate with other races. |
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BrianDavion
Seeker
71 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2016 : 10:34:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by BrianDavion
as surely you don't want a royal line refusing to associate with and wed other subraces.
There you go -- that's the reason the focus is on moon elves. They're the ones most willing to go out and associate with other races.
right my point is that any family worthy of a moonblade by that virtue is proably going to have moon elf and sun elf branches. along with branches of other families (going by Elaine's Evermmet novel for example we know the Moonflowers technicly have sun elf and SEA ELF branches) thus by now, logicly speaking there are almost certainly going to be sun elves weilding moonblades, inherited from Moon Elf relatives.
I suppose in my case it's also a matter of being a beliver in nurture playing a fairly big role in things. if a sun elf marries into moon elf family and has sun elven children, those children aren't going to suddenly be haughty stick in the muds if the majority of their family and friend influance are care free open and accepting moon elves. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2016 : 13:15:16
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| I don't see that it logically follows that any worthy moon elf family will include sun elves. Just because they are more accepting doesn't mean moon elves are going out of their way to find non-moon elves to hang out with, and it likewise doesn't mean that others are going to be more accepting of moon elves. Gold elves are known for being much more focused on gold elves; the friendliest moon elf in the world isn't going to convince a "gold elves are so very superior to everyone else!"-type to suddenly change their mind and marry a moon elf. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 21 Jul 2016 13:15:41 |
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Moon blades
