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combatmedic
Senior Scribe

USA
428 Posts

Posted - 23 Nov 2015 :  18:10:46  Show Profile Send combatmedic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by moonbeast

Well, according to SCAG, the Moonshaes have Fomorian presence…. that's a nod to Irish mythology, no?


It is. As are the 'firbolgs' I mentioned upthread.

Both the Fomor and the Fir Bolg are found in the Book of Invasions.
Although both races/nations there differ from the AD&D monsters of similar names, these are indeed the sources for those monsters.

YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :)
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 23 Nov 2015 :  20:10:15  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't believe Fomorians were ever mentioned in the Moonshaes until 4e.

Firbolgs were and I liked the twist that they arrived with Grond Peaksmasher and created an empire long ago.

I tried to reconcile the sudden appearance of fomorians by making them be firbolgs that were mutated by the touch of kazgoroth and twisted by rage and anger. After all is your average uneducated human really going to know what a fomorian looks like, they just see big ugly giant and think fomorian.

But that's just because I hate the 1480's/90's

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combatmedic
Senior Scribe

USA
428 Posts

Posted - 23 Nov 2015 :  20:38:44  Show Profile Send combatmedic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

I don't believe Fomorians were ever mentioned in the Moonshaes until 4e.

Firbolgs were and I liked the twist that they arrived with Grond Peaksmasher and created an empire long ago.

I tried to reconcile the sudden appearance of fomorians by making them be firbolgs that were mutated by the touch of kazgoroth and twisted by rage and anger. After all is your average uneducated human really going to know what a fomorian looks like, they just see big ugly giant and think fomorian.

But that's just because I hate the 1480's/90's




You may be right. I have a copy of FR 2 Moonshae (minus the color map).
I'm looking through it now. No fomorians so far.

YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :)
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe

USA
428 Posts

Posted - 23 Nov 2015 :  20:52:45  Show Profile Send combatmedic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
FR 2 describes the local firbolg population as "huge, ugly, and mean."

Maybe the 4E team decided to replace them with fomorians?

FR2 doesn't seem to have much in the way of giants besides firbolgs and trolls. I like that. Overdoing giant (and dragon) numbers leaves little room for smaller creatures-- like humans.


YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :)
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 24 Nov 2015 :  09:06:51  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
We'll the novels from what I can gather without reading then made the firbolgs ugly and deformed and little more than raiders and bandits. Then the idea of grind peak smasher was introduced and noble firbolgs came into play (one can assume they were to follow the traditional Dnd view of firbolgs which wasn't deformed).

I introduced the touch of kazgoroth as a means to explain this. Kazgoroth was originally a creature of anger and hatred and his first appearance caused many firbolgs to join his cause. Those blessed with his touch became raging berserkers and hideously deformed.

Not all firbolgs joined his banner though and so we have fomorian and firbolgs. Those firbolgs that bred with the "fomorians" gave rise to the populations of deformed firbolgs.

This thread has inspired me to return to the moonshaes and finish the adventure pathway I was working on to detail the return of kazgoroth, I just need to finish my rule system so I can stay him and the adventure out properly.

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6641 Posts

Posted - 24 Nov 2015 :  10:08:43  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's on the record that Douglas Niles mixed up firbolgs and formorians. They were always intended to be formorian giants.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 24 Nov 2015 :  10:48:33  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's a mistake that worked out well for me though. A flawed goodly race with an inherent weakness that makes them easy pawns of evil powers is much more interesting than always evil monsters

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combatmedic
Senior Scribe

USA
428 Posts

Posted - 24 Nov 2015 :  12:58:12  Show Profile Send combatmedic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think the cover art reflects the original version, where or not it was a mix up.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firbolg_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)#/media/File%3AFirbolg.JPG


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fomorian_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)#/media/File%3AFomorian.JPG

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moonshae#/media/File%3AFR2_TSR9217_Moonshae.jpg

Going by the art, I'd say the dude on the cover of FR2 may be a Firbolg who has used diminution on himself to be sneakier while hunting.

Of course, he may just be a " dude with club and long nose."

Anyway, I like the idea that the Giants are firbolgs and not fomorians. They can use alter self to make themselves look scarier when they want to spook humans.

YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :)
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 25 Nov 2015 :  08:40:17  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The idea of firbolgs using alter self had never even occurred to me but I do like it, I might even steal that for my adventure path.

I took Eric Boyds advice with the moonshaes and embraced its Celtic inspiration. So magic and monsters are rare but unique and terrifying. So the fomorians are only one or two creatures left over from thousands of years ago (kazgoroth lost the ability to make more) but they are more than a match for entire armies. What few magic items litter the isles are considered artefacts by the natives and are the stuff of legends.

Basically the moonshaes turn into a struggle of the common man against nature and mystic forces, into which the pcs are thrust to gather up the lost magics of history with which to fight back.

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combatmedic
Senior Scribe

USA
428 Posts

Posted - 25 Nov 2015 :  13:14:05  Show Profile Send combatmedic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That sounds like a lot of fun,Dazzerdal.

YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :)
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 25 Nov 2015 :  16:20:44  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well issues 8 and 9 of the alternate dimensions focused on the moonshaes with organisation write ups, a new timeline, and a detailed write up of each region. If I ever get the time to write issue 10 it could be an adventure path for the return of kazgoroth or it could be a netheril rewrite (I haven't decided).

If you want to play in the moonshaes in the 1350-70 period and would like some more detail then have a look at issue 8 and 9 in my sig.

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Roseweave
Learned Scribe

Ireland
212 Posts

Posted - 27 Nov 2015 :  01:38:19  Show Profile  Visit Roseweave's Homepage Send Roseweave a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think the Mulan are not necessarily a single race but a group of people that was taken from the Middle East & North Africa and dumped into Toril. They may have been assumed. I say this because Semphar, fantasy Persia, seems to have people of Mul heritage too. Persians are quite different from Egyptians, both both have quite a bit of admixture with Arab populations.

Gurs are quite obviously the Romani people. As of 4E they seem to have been amalgamated with the Vistani(which urgh, has issues). Gypsy is considered an ethnic slur, so please don't use it.

Rashemi is very confusing. The word itself almost sounds like a Romanes word. Rashemen itself seems to be largely based on Russia, but a smooshed amalgamation of the Slavic, Turkic, and Samoyedic cultures(especially in the north). The people itself seem to be quite brown, as opposed to typical slavs who tend to be more white. But there are clearly slavic elements to their culture.

Bedine sounds derived from the word Bedouin, which indeed describes Arab nomads, the original Arabs in fact.

Calimsham seems to be based on the Ottoman Empire, but the people look more Arab than Turkic. It has quite a smush of cultural influences for such a small area. I never liked how small Calimshan was, but you do have Zakhara. I wish more links were established between the two. I think of Calimshan as a "Little Al Qadim".

The Ffolk are Welsh.

I know some people dislike the "Earthifaction" of Toril but the thing about the Realms is that they're not particularly exotic in terms of fantasy - compared to something like the Elder Scrolls for example, if you look at Morrowind, it's hard to compare it directly to a real world culture though there are clear European influences. I don't like the idea of a world with only European influences, but white, western game developers often get stuff wrong.

If you've ever looked at a full map of Toril, it's actually pretty cool, and there's a few in between places(like Semphar) you might not have heard of. I don't like them ripping out or de-emphasising cool places just because they were done badly/stereotypically in the past. Hire a diverse group of designers/writers, and bam, problem solved.

Also, don't forget the Durpari who are Desi-ish. And the Native American proxies. I really dislike how the Poscadar elves are described as "savage". Bleh. I'd like to believe they're actually quite advanced, and have a mix of Elven/High Elven going on. Native American culture was actually more than people realised, and being elven on top of it...

Edited by - Roseweave on 27 Nov 2015 01:46:09
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe

Ireland
212 Posts

Posted - 27 Nov 2015 :  01:42:24  Show Profile  Visit Roseweave's Homepage Send Roseweave a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Btw I just wrote a rather length fic set in Realmspace, where they go to Karpri. They land in one particular Kingdom that's populated by very welsh Sea Elves who probably originate from the Moonshaes. If you want some ideas on the Moonshaes you could always read it, lol. Or read The Mabinogion Tetrology.
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe

Ireland
212 Posts

Posted - 27 Nov 2015 :  01:44:20  Show Profile  Visit Roseweave's Homepage Send Roseweave a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion

Is there an area in FR that has a Polynesian/Maori influenced flavor?



yes, Osse. it's the huge continent to the south east usually not labelled on maps. IMO it's stupidly big for something that isn't that detailed, and there aren't enough fantasy tropes in populate culture of a Maori/Polynesian option to make it feel like it justifies the size(Calimshan has the opposite problem if you leave out Al Qadim).
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe

USA
428 Posts

Posted - 27 Nov 2015 :  03:00:53  Show Profile Send combatmedic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Bedine do seem to be modeled on like preIslamic Arabian Desert nomadic tribes. 100% agreed about the name derivation. It's obvious but still nice.
I like the Bedine. It feels right for them to not be faux-Muslims at all.

Anauroch is clearly magical, and parts of it are cold desert, so I don't worry to much about how little sense a hot desert homeland for the Bedine makes placed where it is on the Faerun map.

YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :)
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe

USA
428 Posts

Posted - 27 Nov 2015 :  03:08:37  Show Profile Send combatmedic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Durpar in the Desert of Desolation module seems different than what followed. Those Durparis worshipped Anu as their only deity. I am fairly sure they were also described as eschewing idols and strong drink (the pious ones, anyway).
The could still be interpreted as vaguely Indian, but their religion seems to me more inspired by Islam than Hinduism. So Moghuls, maybe.
Of course such religious comparisons are merely cosmetic. FR religion has very little to do with real religions, despite some stylistic similarities and the borrowing of the names of a number of ancient mythological figures.

One could take this FR Anu as the version described in Deities and Demigods, and assume a Mulan cultural connection.


YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :)

Edited by - combatmedic on 27 Nov 2015 03:11:01
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe

Ireland
212 Posts

Posted - 27 Nov 2015 :  04:29:58  Show Profile  Visit Roseweave's Homepage Send Roseweave a Private Message  Reply with Quote
They could be Sikh or otherwise. Given there are things from Indian mythology it is a bit shit how they never developed a proper Indian culture.

I would say that Estagund more than Dupari is Indian, with Var the Golden being more Dravidian/Tamil territory perhaps.

IRL Anu is an Irish deity, often conflated with the Morrigan.
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe

USA
428 Posts

Posted - 27 Nov 2015 :  14:05:01  Show Profile Send combatmedic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Roseweave

They could be Sikh or otherwise. Given there are things from Indian mythology it is a bit shit how they never developed a proper Indian culture.

I would say that Estagund more than Dupari is Indian, with Var the Golden being more Dravidian/Tamil territory perhaps.

IRL Anu is an Irish deity, often conflated with the Morrigan.


Indeed?

Anu is also the English spelling of the name of the Sumerian/Akkadian sky-father deity. I had imagined that was the more likely source for the name of the deity in Desert of Desolation, given the regional and geographic themes in the module.
A game construct insipired by Anu appears in Deities & Demigods.


But an Irish angle is interesting.

YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :)
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe

Ireland
212 Posts

Posted - 28 Nov 2015 :  20:01:08  Show Profile  Visit Roseweave's Homepage Send Roseweave a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Were Sumerians Indo-Europeans? Probably not a coincidence in that case.
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe

Ireland
212 Posts

Posted - 28 Nov 2015 :  20:16:00  Show Profile  Visit Roseweave's Homepage Send Roseweave a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also Semphar is Muslim Persia, with Calimshan having some elements, is there a pre-Muslim, Zoroastrian-styled Persia?

Edited by - Roseweave on 28 Nov 2015 20:16:16
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe

USA
428 Posts

Posted - 29 Nov 2015 :  00:20:19  Show Profile Send combatmedic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Roseweave

Were Sumerians Indo-Europeans? Probably not a coincidence in that case.



Nope. Their language is an isolate, not in any known family.


YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :)
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe

USA
428 Posts

Posted - 29 Nov 2015 :  00:22:13  Show Profile Send combatmedic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Roseweave

Also Semphar is Muslim Persia, with Calimshan having some elements, is there a pre-Muslim, Zoroastrian-styled Persia?



Is Semphar described as monotheistic in The Horde? I vaguely recall some religion that started with the letter M, which seemed like a not too subtle hint at fantasy not-Islam. But my memory is vague.

I haven't got that box anymore. Sold it years ago.

But I do not think published FR draws on any of the real world monotheistic traditions in meaningful ways. It looks more like pulp fantasy polytheism to me, with an unusual number of benevolent deities.

It does seem to me that Toril gets more like Earth as one heads east of Faerun.
The Horde and Kara Tur are way more like Asia than Faerun is like Europe at any period of history. Or so it seems to me.

YMMV


YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :)

Edited by - combatmedic on 29 Nov 2015 00:43:23
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Xnella Moonblade-Thann
Learned Scribe

USA
234 Posts

Posted - 29 Nov 2015 :  00:53:09  Show Profile Send Xnella Moonblade-Thann a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brylock

It might be best to say that certain ethnicities RESEMBLE Earth ones (with one ethnic group actually being real-world Egyptians who got Stargated over to Toril and enslaved), but have a lot of differences that don't correlate much to real life due to cultural geographic differences between Earth and Toril.


Finally, I am not the only one who thinks the Stargate idea is what caused the cross-polination of Earth and Toril...gonna have to run with this idea and see where it gets me.

"Sweet water and light laughter until next we meet." - traditional elven farewell

Please forgive any spelling and grammer errors, as my android touch-screen phone has no spellchecker. If I do make a grammer mistake, please let me know and I'll try to fix it.

New laptop, still trying to sort my "scrolls" on its shelves...and when will this cursed thing stop doing things I tell it not to?
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe

Ireland
212 Posts

Posted - 29 Nov 2015 :  00:57:15  Show Profile  Visit Roseweave's Homepage Send Roseweave a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic

quote:
Originally posted by Roseweave

Also Semphar is Muslim Persia, with Calimshan having some elements, is there a pre-Muslim, Zoroastrian-styled Persia?



Is Semphar described as monotheistic in The Horde? I vaguely recall some religion that started with the letter M, which seemed like a not too subtle hint at fantasy not-Islam. But my memory is vague.

I haven't got that box anymore. Sold it years ago.

But I do not think published FR draws on any of the real world monotheistic traditions in meaningful ways. It looks more like pulp fantasy polytheism to me, with an unusual number of benevolent deities.

It does seem to me that Toril gets more like Earth as one heads east of Faerun.
The Horde and Kara Tur are way more like Asia than Faerun is like Europe at any period of history. Or so it seems to me.

YMMV





The Pseudo-Islam isn't strictly monotheistic(which is why it's pseudo Islam). The religion itself doesn't seem to have a proper name, but it revolves around "Fate" which is sometimes represented as a monotheistic gods. While polytheistic Gods are a normal part of life in Al Qadim it still seems to have that Abrahamic rule of "Qadir before all". So while you can worship other gods you can never put them before "Fate". The actual Zakharan pantheon could be viewed as aspects of Fate(and I think is meant to be). It's still sort of weird, especially when they're using so much real world Muslim terminology like Haraam and Caliph. I'd rather they went for more of a straight up Islam proxy.

OOI are there pseudo-jews in the realms? Where did Golems first come from?
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe

Ireland
212 Posts

Posted - 29 Nov 2015 :  01:00:33  Show Profile  Visit Roseweave's Homepage Send Roseweave a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Xnella Moonblade-Thann

quote:
Originally posted by Brylock

It might be best to say that certain ethnicities RESEMBLE Earth ones (with one ethnic group actually being real-world Egyptians who got Stargated over to Toril and enslaved), but have a lot of differences that don't correlate much to real life due to cultural geographic differences between Earth and Toril.


Finally, I am not the only one who thinks the Stargate idea is what caused the cross-polination of Earth and Toril...gonna have to run with this idea and see where it gets me.


in my own fantasy world i'm having it so this is extremely blatant, and it's very likely ALL humans come from real world cultures, originally. some of them very old cultures and ethnicities that have died out/merged into new ones, but there are still a lot of real world cultures.

it just feels honest to me because most fantasy proxies real world cultures. and there's nothing wrong with that, we all need a framework to work in and more abstract fantasy starts to blur the lines with abstract sci-fi. generally with fantasy we like to keep a strong influence from real life folklore & culture. Which is also why it's important we don't just stick to the European influences(even if Cultural Appropriation is also an issue).

Done properly the different parts of Toril that correspond to different culture would look like the source material for a fantasy game created by people from that culture, if that makes any sense. I know there's a Native American RPG that was kickstarted a while back that looks interesting, for example. Because Al Qadim, Maztica et. all still seem fairly popular with some players, and because there's a more diverse audience for fantasy geeks now, it would make a lot of sense to invest in these settings again, but do it right.
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe

USA
428 Posts

Posted - 29 Nov 2015 :  01:13:48  Show Profile Send combatmedic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't recognize"Cultural Appropriation" as a meaningful concept. People borrow stuff from other cultures. Diffusion, yo. That's how human cultures work.
But more to the point, it's only a game. Ideological stuff like"cultural appropriation" belongs on politics boards, not on game boards.
I'm not going to waste time arguing this with anyone.

All IMHO and YMMV

But back to the main topic...

Your fantasy world sounds fun, Roseweave. Do you use it for active gaming? Fiction? Both?

RE Maztica and other lines

I recall liking Maztica but never actually using it. Pluma and hishna magic seemed cool.
Conquistadors exploring a fantasy New World is a very gameable concept. Ditto natives fighting for the conquerors, or against them.
TSR may have missed a beat by not including the historical pandemic element. But IIRC, one of the gods turned the people of a city into goblins and orcs. If that transformation became contagious...

AQ was fun. But I would not be interested if it lost the 1001 Nights by way of Hollywood feel.
It was always supposed to be in good part a Sinbad movie kind of world. Going to far in the direction of history would miss the point, I think.


Kara Tur never really interested me. But an Oriental setting does seem like an obvious possibility for the game. Several exist, although I am not sure how many are in print.

YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :)

Edited by - combatmedic on 29 Nov 2015 01:24:29
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe

USA
428 Posts

Posted - 29 Nov 2015 :  01:56:22  Show Profile Send combatmedic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brylock

quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic

quote:
Originally posted by MTaylor

Thank you, I appreciate the response.

I know that the FR was never intended to be an exact replica of real-world cultures, but any GM will tell you that real-world analogues are excellent for providing descriptions, doing accents and the like. I'm really more interested in the example names as much as actual Realms lore, I guess, some kind of 'touchstone' to help players role-play their cultures better.

So that said...

Calishite: Ouch, should have imagined them as Ottoman Turks, that makes sense, and the Bedine as Bedouin nomads.

Damaran: I played the original Bloodstone modules back in the early 80's and didn't get an Eastern European feel at all. But the example names here are definitely Eastern European? Same with the Rashemi, and Minsc in Baldur's Gate is clearly portrayed as a mad Russian, even down to his name. But then Dynaheir is ethnically black...?

Ffolk: The names given here are traditionally English. I recall the AD&D Moonshaes gazetteer had a Celtic flavour.

Arkaiun: Maybe they are meant to be a 'generic exotic' race or something?

Halruaan: Ah, I get it :)

Nar: I get the 'horse nomads' thing. I didn't know the grey box guy was a Nar, but I always thought he looked very cool.

The Shaaran names are Awar, Cohis, Damota, Gewar, Hapaw, Laskaw, Moktar, Senesaw, Tokhis (male); Anet, Bes, Dahvet, Faqem, Idim, Lenet, Moqem, Neghet, Sihvet (female);
Cor Marak, Hiaw Harr, Laumee Harr, Moq Qo Harr, Taw Harr, Woraw Tarak (surnames). That REALLY feels like it's based on some real-world ethnic group, but I'm not sure what. It has echoes of a North African or Indian subcontinental culture, but I can't place it :(



I would look at the Fertile Crescent as one inspiration for The Shaar.
Online searches of dubious reliability tell me that SHARRA may mean 'many' or ''dry up' in Sumerian. Shoddy, lazy, two minute 'research', but may be good enough for gaming.
Land of Shinar, as per the OT?




It might also be like an ancient, pre-desertification Sahara region, inhabited by nomadic peoples.


Actually given the Sharran people's skin colors (bronzed with dark hair), I'm reminded more of the Great Plains tribes in North America. Admittedly the Great Plains tribes didn't have horses until much later after white settlers got there, but Kievan Russia didn't live next to Evil Wizard Egyptians either, so I think there's some flexibility.



Sure, why not?
Plains Indians look fun for gaming.

YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :)
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 29 Nov 2015 :  03:51:10  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've deleted a couple of posts from this thread, because it was going in a direction that could get ugly, fast. Let's try to keep things civil, please.

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