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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Nov 2015 : 20:33:42
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Well I've noticed they already have some of the lore wrong. According to the book, Azuth was around before the Dawn Cataclysm and served as a mediator between Tyche, Lathander, and Selune.
Now unless more lore has gotten screwed up elsewhere, I thought Azuth was a human mage who became the first magister who wasn't hanging around before the Dawn Cataclysm.
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“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2015 : 21:09:34
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Well, Azuth might have become a deity by the time before the Dawn Cataclysm, as the Dawn Cataclym took place anywere between the fall of Netheril in -339 DR, to the The Founding of Myth Drannor in 261 DR. Some of the comments from the creators, suggested even the Dawn Cataclysm took place outside the moortal perception of Time, making the situation even more complicated.
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Edited by - Baltas on 10 Nov 2015 21:10:29 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2015 : 21:45:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
Well, Azuth might have become a deity by the time before the Dawn Cataclysm, as the Dawn Cataclym took place anywere between the fall of Netheril in -339 DR, to the The Founding of Myth Drannor in 261 DR. Some of the comments from the creators, suggested even the Dawn Cataclysm took place outside the moortal perception of Time, making the situation even more complicated.
Some of the lore we have indicates it happened between 700 and 712 DR.
But absent a definitive place in the chronology and the fact that we already had conflicting information on when it happened, I can't say the SCAG got it wrong, here. |
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swifty
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
517 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2015 : 22:56:35
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| What exactly was the dawn cataclysm. |
go back to sleep america.everything is under control.heres american gladiators.watch this.shuttup. BILL HICKS. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2015 : 23:49:39
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quote:
Originally posted by swifty
What exactly was the dawn cataclysm.
Some sort of conflict among the gods, kicked off when Lathander tried to take some unspecified action against the evil powers of the Realms.
We don't have a huge amount of detail about it -- mostly just passing references here and there.
We know a deity named Murdane died during the Dawn Cataclysm, presumably as a result of whatever was going on. Tyche was sundered into Tymora and Beshaba during the DC, though this was an apparently unrelated event.
The designers have quite resolutely refused to even come close to giving a time frame for it, and have even implied it happened "outside of time" -- an explanation that I really dislike.
Most of the references we have to it are "this happened just before the Dawn Cataclysm" or "this happened during the Dawn Cataclysm" and nothing else.
My personal thinking is that since gods are immortal, the easiest fix is to say that it spanned several centuries and was an on-again/off-again thing. Going that way allows us to reconcile most of the wildly differing dates -- the "outside of time" explanation, in my opinion, falls apart when we can put specific time frames on things we know happened during or as a result of the DC.
My reasoning for thinking we do have a specific time frame for it is that we know when Tyche's church split -- and given the constant bickering of the gods, especially Tymora and Beshaba, I don't believe that Tyche's church would have lasted more than a few months after those two split. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2015 : 00:23:23
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It seems implausible to me that everyone in Faerun agrees with everyone else on mythology and history.
Some stories will be widely shared, but I would expect significant variation.
Is the material in the Guide presented as " objective" facts about the setting, or as what adventures might know ( or believe, regardless of accuracy)?
YMMV
I have not seen the book. I am not in the market for a new edition or a new version of an old setting. I do wish Hasbro success with their project.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 11 Nov 2015 00:26:19 |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2015 : 00:24:04
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As I understand it, the Dawn Cataclysm has remained vague in terms of the timeline, because that better encourages theorizing and discussion among the fans.
It would appear the SCAG isn't in error, rather it poses questions via the information it contains, which is a good thing. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2015 : 00:32:02
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The Dawn Cataclsym is when the Teeessarr captured Toril and began altering the world through their minion, AO.
Tyche " birthed" Tymora at that time. The Great Glacier melted back a long way, revealing the Bloodstone Lands. The Moonshaes shook and rose, forming a chain of large islands where a spray of a thousand islets had been.
Aslan's avatar, which had arrived on Toril via Weathercote Wood's pool portals, adapted fully to Faerun and started calling itself Nobanion.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 11 Nov 2015 00:33:43 |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2015 : 02:08:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by swifty
What exactly was the dawn cataclysm.
Some sort of conflict among the gods, kicked off when Lathander tried to take some unspecified action against the evil powers of the Realms.
We don't have a huge amount of detail about it -- mostly just passing references here and there.
We know a deity named Murdane died during the Dawn Cataclysm, presumably as a result of whatever was going on. Tyche was sundered into Tymora and Beshaba during the DC, though this was an apparently unrelated event.
Several years ago, I ran a campaign where my players discovered a mysterious ruined outpost of old Jhaamdath. One part of the ruins held a decaying, broken temple of the forgotten goddess Murdane.
Their discovery, and their actions, led to the rebirth of Murdane. One of the PCs took up her worship, and a new/old faith was restored in my Realms. And indirectly, they gained the gratitude of both Helm and Lathander. And the cold enmity of Umberlee.
Pretty fun and exciting campaign, if I do say so myself. 
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2015 : 03:26:41
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That sounds excellent, Eltheron. Very cool.  |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2015 : 04:13:36
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I had a sidebar on Murdane that was cut from my Impiltur article in Dragon #346. The excerpt is somewhere in my thread.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4426 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2015 : 05:13:48
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| What do we know about Murdane? And, combatmedic, the Aslan/Nobanion idea is pretty damn amazing! I'll definitely be using that in my Realms from now on. |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2015 : 11:55:07
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quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
The Dawn Cataclsym is when the Teeessarr captured Toril and began altering the world through their minion, AO.
Tyche " birthed" Tymora at that time. The Great Glacier melted back a long way, revealing the Bloodstone Lands. The Moonshaes shook and rose, forming a chain of large islands where a spray of a thousand islets had been.
Aslan's avatar, which had arrived on Toril via Weathercote Wood's pool portals, adapted fully to Faerun and started calling itself Nobanion.
Very interesting ideas, but I'm very curious, who are the Teeessarr? |
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Veritas
Learned Scribe
209 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2015 : 13:37:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by swifty
What exactly was the dawn cataclysm.
Some sort of conflict among the gods, kicked off when Lathander tried to take some unspecified action against the evil powers of the Realms.
We don't have a huge amount of detail about it -- mostly just passing references here and there.
We know a deity named Murdane died during the Dawn Cataclysm, presumably as a result of whatever was going on. Tyche was sundered into Tymora and Beshaba during the DC, though this was an apparently unrelated event.
The designers have quite resolutely refused to even come close to giving a time frame for it, and have even implied it happened "outside of time" -- an explanation that I really dislike.
Most of the references we have to it are "this happened just before the Dawn Cataclysm" or "this happened during the Dawn Cataclysm" and nothing else.
My personal thinking is that since gods are immortal, the easiest fix is to say that it spanned several centuries and was an on-again/off-again thing. Going that way allows us to reconcile most of the wildly differing dates -- the "outside of time" explanation, in my opinion, falls apart when we can put specific time frames on things we know happened during or as a result of the DC.
My reasoning for thinking we do have a specific time frame for it is that we know when Tyche's church split -- and given the constant bickering of the gods, especially Tymora and Beshaba, I don't believe that Tyche's church would have lasted more than a few months after those two split.
In fact, to harken back to dating the Dawn Cataclysm, it would have to be during or after Azuth's ascension from the perspective of the mortal world. In Elminster: The Making of a Mage, characters invoked Tyche several times.
Azuth had ascended by that point.
Assuming Tyche did split into Tymora and Beshaba during the Dawn Cataclysm
This leaves us with several possibilities from the linear mortal perspective, the most likely are:
1) The Dawn Cataclysm occurred after or was a continuous event occurring during the time of El:MoaM.
2) Tyche had already split but mortals hadn't caught on yet.
Presupposing (1) which is most likely, Azuth would have been a deity at or around the time of the DC.
Circling back to the OP, it doesn't look like you've identified any "incorrect" lore yet. Did you have anything else?
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2015 : 14:44:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
The Dawn Cataclsym is when the Teeessarr captured Toril and began altering the world through their minion, AO.
Tyche " birthed" Tymora at that time. The Great Glacier melted back a long way, revealing the Bloodstone Lands. The Moonshaes shook and rose, forming a chain of large islands where a spray of a thousand islets had been.
Aslan's avatar, which had arrived on Toril via Weathercote Wood's pool portals, adapted fully to Faerun and started calling itself Nobanion.
Very interesting ideas, but I'm very curious, who are the Teeessarr?
Ah, Teeessarr was a pun. I meant it as a play on TSR.
I'm referring to a number of changes made to published FR after the publication of Down to Earth Divinity (article in Dragon Magazine that details how Ed selected gods for his home campaign, with Tyche instead of Tymora and Aslan instead of Nobanion) and during the writing of the first boxed set. TSR made a number of changes. I don't know if Tyche and Aslan changed because TSR editors made the call, or because Ed had already changed them at some point after that article. Moonshaes and Bloodstone Lands were added (original Greenwood Moonshaes were apparently a region of many small islands).
But while I meant the whole thing as a joke, it might indeed be fun to connect things like geological and climate shifts with the Dawn Cataclysm.
Or, if it really did take place "out of time" maybe it was a "reality quake'' event that altered the past and the future as well as the present. The arrival of AO could be such an event.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2015 : 14:49:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
What do we know about Murdane? And, combatmedic, the Aslan/Nobanion idea is pretty damn amazing! I'll definitely be using that in my Realms from now on.
Thanks, but give Ed Greenwood the credit. or at least ''the lion's share.'' :)
It's been a while since I read Down to Earth Divinity, but I know that Aslan is one of the gods. I don't recall if Lurue had her name yet, but Ed wanted a 'lion and unicorn' fairy tale thing. He borrowed the name Aslan and the lion god concept, but I doubt he wanted the theological background for Narnia in FR. At some point he changed the name to Nobanion, or TSR editors did.
I am not sure, but it may be that Nobanion arrives as an interloper god through Weathercote Wood in canon. If he does not, then I guess that is my contribution. I am not sure, but I would not be surprised if Greenwood had the Wood Between the Worlds in mind when he wrote up Weathercote. More Narnia!
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 11 Nov 2015 14:52:56 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2015 : 15:21:46
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quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
Ah, Teeessarr was a pun. I meant it as a play on TSR.
I'm referring to a number of changes made to published FR after the publication of Down to Earth Divinity (article in Dragon Magazine that details how Ed selected gods for his home campaign, with Tyche instead of Tymora and Aslan instead of Nobanion) and during the writing of the first boxed set. TSR made a number of changes. I don't know if Tyche and Aslan changed because TSR editors made the call, or because Ed had already changed them at some point after that article. Moonshaes and Bloodstone Lands were added (original Greenwood Moonshaes were apparently a region of many small islands).
But while I meant the whole thing as a joke, it might indeed be fun to connect things like geological and climate shifts with the Dawn Cataclysm.
Or, if it really did take place "out of time" maybe it was a "reality quake'' event that altered the past and the future as well as the present. The arrival of AO could be such an event.
Indeed, although TSR allready done some changes when Ed wrote Down to Earth Divinity, as in original ie Ed home Realms, Lurue is THE Goddess and Incarnation of Magic. As Ed wrote in one of the responces to his questions, TSR thought a unicorn goddess of all magic, would be strange, and didn't want such an non-humananoid divinity to be so important(human/humanoid supremism anyone XD). So they asked Ed to make a human oddess of Magic, and so Mystra was born, if I remember well. |
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Korginard
Learned Scribe
USA
126 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2015 : 17:15:19
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| The Novel Tymora's luck had some info on the Dawn Cataclysm. It suggested that Lathander plotted to remake the entire Pantheon in his own image. He was depicted as having his heart in the right place, but being dangerously naive about the consequences of his actions. Tyche was corrupted by Moander and the gods split her into Tymora and Beshaba in an attempt to save her from this corruption. The Novel involves a plot to join the two goddesses back into one. |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2015 : 20:23:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
Ah, Teeessarr was a pun. I meant it as a play on TSR.
I'm referring to a number of changes made to published FR after the publication of Down to Earth Divinity (article in Dragon Magazine that details how Ed selected gods for his home campaign, with Tyche instead of Tymora and Aslan instead of Nobanion) and during the writing of the first boxed set. TSR made a number of changes. I don't know if Tyche and Aslan changed because TSR editors made the call, or because Ed had already changed them at some point after that article. Moonshaes and Bloodstone Lands were added (original Greenwood Moonshaes were apparently a region of many small islands).
But while I meant the whole thing as a joke, it might indeed be fun to connect things like geological and climate shifts with the Dawn Cataclysm.
Or, if it really did take place "out of time" maybe it was a "reality quake'' event that altered the past and the future as well as the present. The arrival of AO could be such an event.
Indeed, although TSR allready done some changes when Ed wrote Down to Earth Divinity, as in original ie Ed home Realms, Lurue is THE Goddess and Incarnation of Magic. As Ed wrote in one of the responces to his questions, TSR thought a unicorn goddess of all magic, would be strange, and didn't want such an non-humananoid divinity to be so important(human/humanoid supremism anyone XD). So they asked Ed to make a human oddess of Magic, and so Mystra was born, if I remember well.
Hmmmm...I think I might undo that change if I run FR again some day. Unicorn goddess (or god) of magic sounds fun to me. Unicorns are magical creatures, after all.
Mystra might remain as a goddess of wizards in place of Azuth. Maybe Mystra and Azuth would be the same deity in its male and female aspects.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 11 Nov 2015 20:24:21 |
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pedro2112
Acolyte
11 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2015 : 05:59:55
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quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
Is the material in the Guide presented as " objective" facts about the setting, or as what adventures might know ( or believe, regardless of accuracy)?
Most of the text regarding the lands of Faerun are in the form of journals/manuscripts from travelers to those particular areas. |
Pedro2112 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2015 : 06:46:00
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| I did find issue with the Dethek chart in the book -- three letters have the same character, and the pictured runestone has a character that's not on the chart. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2015 : 12:24:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I did find issue with the Dethek chart in the book -- three letters have the same character, and the pictured runestone has a character that's not on the chart.
Seriously? Why do they feel the need to change the letters from the original gray box? I know they changed Espruar I think back during 3.5.... I just don't get why. Its so easy to make a font nowadays, they can just scan in the old figures and whammo font done. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2015 : 15:24:48
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I did find issue with the Dethek chart in the book -- three letters have the same character, and the pictured runestone has a character that's not on the chart.
Seriously? Why do they feel the need to change the letters from the original gray box? I know they changed Espruar I think back during 3.5.... I just don't get why. Its so easy to make a font nowadays, they can just scan in the old figures and whammo font done.
I've not compared the old to the new -- I don't think they were changing anything; I think someone dropped the ball with the chart. It may not have even been an editorial mistake, it could have happened at the printers. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2015 : 17:53:31
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Many balls dropped on this product, IMO.
The maps with no scale, the truly mediocre crunch options.
All of 4E and even the Sundering novel repeatedly hammered in that Amaunator and Lathander were the same deity. Now both appear in this?
Myrkul's apparently taking Bhaal's former portfolio, yet Bhaal is the god of murder. Does that mean both are back but dramatically reduced in power? No explanation for Leira?
Halruaa hide-n-seek, repeated planet-swapping of huge land masses, it's all just dumb.
The entire history "update" reads like painfully bad fanfiction, though I blame most of that on 4E - but the minimalist "everyone's back and sort of feeling better, and we're explaining nothing about the Spellplague or the Sundering" is just flat-out lazy and poor writing.
We need a full reboot more than ever, the metaplot story is so abysmally bad.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 28 Nov 2015 18:23:40 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2015 : 18:26:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
"everyone's back and sort of feeling better, and we're explaining nothing about the Spellplague or the Sundering"
When in doubt, try ''Ao did it''... |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2015 : 00:36:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
"everyone's back and sort of feeling better, and we're explaining nothing about the Spellplague or the Sundering"
When in doubt, try ''Ao did it''...
Never much liked AO or the concept of an Overdeity. I say fire AO.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide wrong in places.
