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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Oct 2015 : 15:34:50
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Unless you have another standard non novel event that means myrkul is in the crown of horns anyway (or at least a part of him). That way it doesn't matter if you use the ToT or not, the important world changing outcomes are the same ( just without the god nonsense).
It's early days yet but I reckon it's achievable to have a base setting that advances along the timeline without novel events that changes the world in a way that is compatible with the novels for comparison.
After all the novels and RSEs have very few permanent outcomes, they are all usually undone sooner or later by other events or artefacts. Things always change, people die (azoun), nations fall (tethyr), new nations appear (silver marches), even new gods, if you have plausible reasons for those events to occur then it I imagine they would be accepted by those who do not want the novel and Rse version of events
So how do you explain Myrkul happily being an artifact and not a god, and have that reconcile with him being a god and never having lost his power? How do you reconcile the destruction of a place with it never having been destroyed? How do you reconcile Cyric being a god and yet never having had the chance to ascend if the Time of Troubles didn't happen?
You can't have it both ways. Either something happened, or it didn't. And you can't keep things straight if Person A details one area and said some events didn't happen, but Person B details a neighboring area and the effects of those same events.
For this project to have any kind of success, all participants have to agree to one particular set of events and go forward from there. Otherwise, it's not a unified setting, it's just another random collection of fanlore.
And given that novel events are canon and have been referenced in later source material, the only way to entirely excise the novels is to roll back to the OGB or earlier and start over from there. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2015 : 15:51:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Unless you have another standard non novel event that means myrkul is in the crown of horns anyway (or at least a part of him). That way it doesn't matter if you use the ToT or not, the important world changing outcomes are the same ( just without the god nonsense).
It's early days yet but I reckon it's achievable to have a base setting that advances along the timeline without novel events that changes the world in a way that is compatible with the novels for comparison.
After all the novels and RSEs have very few permanent outcomes, they are all usually undone sooner or later by other events or artefacts. Things always change, people die (azoun), nations fall (tethyr), new nations appear (silver marches), even new gods, if you have plausible reasons for those events to occur then it I imagine they would be accepted by those who do not want the novel and Rse version of events
So how do you explain Myrkul happily being an artifact and not a god, and have that reconcile with him being a god and never having lost his power? How do you reconcile the destruction of a place with it never having been destroyed? How do you reconcile Cyric being a god and yet never having had the chance to ascend if the Time of Troubles didn't happen?
You can't have it both ways. Either something happened, or it didn't. And you can't keep things straight if Person A details one area and said some events didn't happen, but Person B details a neighboring area and the effects of those same events.
For this project to have any kind of success, all participants have to agree to one particular set of events and go forward from there. Otherwise, it's not a unified setting, it's just another random collection of fanlore.
And given that novel events are canon and have been referenced in later source material, the only way to entirely excise the novels is to roll back to the OGB or earlier and start over from there.
All depends on what novels you don't want to include. Some novels would have no change what so ever. Also, certain events can be altered to have a different outcome. Killing Cyric while mortal changes things but not in an earth shattering bad way.
We have the luxury of cherry picking. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2015 : 15:57:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeff Strix
quote:
Originally posted by BenN
I think it's a great idea (always good to give our imagination-muscles a work-out!), but I suggest we wait to see what new info & updates will be included in the forthcoming Sword Coast Aventures Guide.
For example, I`m interested to see what (if any) updates there are for the Moonshaes, the High Forest, Evereska, Cormanthor & Evermeet. In the SCAG, I guess there may well be updates for the Moonshaes & High Forest, but probably not for the other places.
I also think, we should wait til we have info from SCAG. After that we should make some voting for the starting year, cos as I see, the opinions about it are different, some of us want Pre-Spellplague, some want Spellplague times (or 4E times), and some (including me) Post-Sundering. As for me, I think 1490 DR would be the best for this case.
If you are going to use SCAG then you don't need us as that's what Wizards wants you to do anyway. Those who actually do the work with have the most say as that's fair. Dazz and I are going to lead off and anyone who wants to join can. People are are throwing up too many roadblocks to the point where it will never get done. If lonely Johnny likes one thing while everyone else doesn't then guess who won't be getting what they like? If you don't like our version then change it to whatever you like. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2015 : 16:23:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
We have the luxury of cherry picking.
There is still the problem of a group deciding on the cherries.
You need to either select a time base or a group base to be able to start to work on such a project.
Time base would likely be end of 2nd (which was not much different then the limited 1st) or end of 3rd.
As for core group I have seen a few names mentioned up scroll. I do not believe all of them have expressed interest in such a project.
Also up scroll was the idea of voting for those to work on this project.
Clearly one way to try to do this would be a nomination scroll as some of those named and not yet named might not wish to be involved in the proposed project because of personal life restrictions or just not in favor of such a task.
If you take this route, I would advise at least one month to find out if proposed users are even willing to serve.
Then you might seek a vote on each to see the community supports all or some of those nominated. Then, if not sooner, you need to decide whom can vote. A user could create many accounts to vote for a nominated person that does not really reflect a true opinion of the community.
Then you need a way to make sure there is no voter fraud. Clearly one way to do it is an open ballot. That is each user posts publicly a yes or no vote. This of course offers the possible problem of some nominated users feeling insulted or less important to the community if not elected.
running a secret ballot or a poll holds the problem of vote stuffing that maybe the moderators can detect some of the times. While I am not sure the extent of tools available to the moderators here, I clearly know that some spammers have used 20 to 30 IPs from 46.???.???.??? to 92.???.???.??? . I would need to check logs better to know how many a single user used and range that was used, however this is conservative based on a site I help moderate.
In the end odds are in the end you will end up with a fan based group effort that not all will like and and might be something the team that builds it will not like at least one part of a compiled project.
In other words, this is a bad idea to be a candlekeep project in my opinion. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2015 : 16:26:57
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If this is going to be between just a few people then why bring it up? If it's going to be a collaborative approach, then make it one.
However, haven't people been taking what they like and leaving out what they don't for years, anyway? |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2015 : 16:37:02
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What we could do is do what some scribes do here from time to time anyway: someone has an idea (or several ideas) about a certain aspect of the Realms, and they poat about it here. Others can give then give their in put. I have seen this done before in these halls. Like how people sometimes post their homebrew ideas.
It's true that you aren't going to please everyone, but I worry that that this could lead to a lot of argument and infighting. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2015 : 16:51:39
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
If this is going to be between just a few people then why bring it up? If it's going to be a collaborative approach, then make it one.
However, haven't people been taking what they like and leaving out what they don't for years, anyway?
Corellon, I do apologize for forgetting you were nominated and had some interest in a proposal (When I posted before that some proposed had not even been seen in this scroll.
The problem with collaborative is still deciding on whom would do so. The entire community can not fully agree on anything. Some like 4th Edition and even some like parts of 5th Edition in part viewed as removing some errors of 4th. I still have problems with certain aspects of 3rd Edition which I will not repeat.
The basic goal of the scroll is to fix where the Realms started to feel incorrect, each user however has a different starting point.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2015 : 16:58:46
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| The vote is to decide who will be the judges who give the final say into what makes it into the finished piece. Not a vote to see who works on it. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2015 : 17:05:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
If this is going to be between just a few people then why bring it up? If it's going to be a collaborative approach, then make it one.
However, haven't people been taking what they like and leaving out what they don't for years, anyway?
Corellon, I do apologize for forgetting you were nominated and had some interest in a proposal (When I posted before that some proposed had not even been seen in this scroll.
The problem with collaborative is still deciding on whom would do so. The entire community can not fully agree on anything. Some like 4th Edition and even some like parts of 5th Edition in part viewed as removing some errors of 4th. I still have problems with certain aspects of 3rd Edition which I will not repeat.
The basic goal of the scroll is to fix where the Realms started to feel incorrect, each user however has a different starting point.
I didn't even know I was nominated lol. I think I was writing the post when you posted yours, which is why mine appeared after yours.
And I agree with you. While it might be fun, it could also get ugly fast. We would all have to think hard of a way to make it work.
@Shadowsoul: oh I see. That makes more sense |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Jeff Strix
Acolyte
Germany
21 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2015 : 18:11:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
quote:
Originally posted by Jeff Strix
quote:
Originally posted by BenN
I think it's a great idea (always good to give our imagination-muscles a work-out!), but I suggest we wait to see what new info & updates will be included in the forthcoming Sword Coast Aventures Guide.
For example, I`m interested to see what (if any) updates there are for the Moonshaes, the High Forest, Evereska, Cormanthor & Evermeet. In the SCAG, I guess there may well be updates for the Moonshaes & High Forest, but probably not for the other places.
I also think, we should wait til we have info from SCAG. After that we should make some voting for the starting year, cos as I see, the opinions about it are different, some of us want Pre-Spellplague, some want Spellplague times (or 4E times), and some (including me) Post-Sundering. As for me, I think 1490 DR would be the best for this case.
If you are going to use SCAG then you don't need us as that's what Wizards wants you to do anyway. Those who actually do the work with have the most say as that's fair. Dazz and I are going to lead off and anyone who wants to join can. People are are throwing up too many roadblocks to the point where it will never get done. If lonely Johnny likes one thing while everyone else doesn't then guess who won't be getting what they like? If you don't like our version then change it to whatever you like.
I'm going to use only some useful lore information from SCAG, and nothing more. How much useful info is there (or maybe nothing at all)...we will see very soon. So, if you want to lead this "idea" with Dazzlerdal, can you tell me which year (or era) do you want to use as "starting point"? As I saw, Dazzlerdal is focused on Pre-Spellplague times. |
Edited by - Jeff Strix on 09 Oct 2015 18:11:52 |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2015 : 19:18:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeff Strix
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
quote:
Originally posted by Jeff Strix
quote:
Originally posted by BenN
I think it's a great idea (always good to give our imagination-muscles a work-out!), but I suggest we wait to see what new info & updates will be included in the forthcoming Sword Coast Aventures Guide.
For example, I`m interested to see what (if any) updates there are for the Moonshaes, the High Forest, Evereska, Cormanthor & Evermeet. In the SCAG, I guess there may well be updates for the Moonshaes & High Forest, but probably not for the other places.
I also think, we should wait til we have info from SCAG. After that we should make some voting for the starting year, cos as I see, the opinions about it are different, some of us want Pre-Spellplague, some want Spellplague times (or 4E times), and some (including me) Post-Sundering. As for me, I think 1490 DR would be the best for this case.
If you are going to use SCAG then you don't need us as that's what Wizards wants you to do anyway. Those who actually do the work with have the most say as that's fair. Dazz and I are going to lead off and anyone who wants to join can. People are are throwing up too many roadblocks to the point where it will never get done. If lonely Johnny likes one thing while everyone else doesn't then guess who won't be getting what they like? If you don't like our version then change it to whatever you like.
I'm going to use only some useful lore information from SCAG, and nothing more. How much useful info is there (or maybe nothing at all)...we will see very soon. So, if you want to lead this "idea" with Dazzlerdal, can you tell me which year (or era) do you want to use as "starting point"? As I saw, Dazzlerdal is focused on Pre-Spellplague times.
Dazz has mentioned starting before the Spellplague. I am still looking over several bits he has come up with. Very nice work! |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2015 : 19:22:02
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One of the first things I would like to discuss is Mystra, the Chosen and the whole concept.
I believe Mystra should be a completely neutral deity who's only goal is to preserve "all" forms of magic. I think the concept of the Chosen is flawed because the goddess is needlessly exposing herself to harm. She doesn't need to put part of her essence into mortals because then she needs to give them super powers in order to protect it when she could just protect herself on her home plane and not make the whole concept of magic so easily taken and abused. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2015 : 19:32:15
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| Or if she has Chosen, they can be like the "Chosen" of other deities. They would serve a similar function, but not necessarily carry bits of her power. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2015 : 19:43:50
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Or if she has Chosen, they can be like the "Chosen" of other deities. They would serve a similar function, but not necessarily carry bits of her power.
That sounds good. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2015 : 19:54:30
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| I think there should be one Chosen who's also called The Magister. I think this should be the Blackstaff. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2015 : 20:01:08
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| What about the other "magic" deities, such as Azuth? If we decide to make Mystra the -only- deity who dealswith magic, then Azuth could be like a servitor of some sort to Mystra. Or, we can keep Azuth in his current role. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2015 : 20:41:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
People are are throwing up too many roadblocks to the point where it will never get done.
I should like to say that I'm not trying to throw up a roadblock -- I'm offering a bit of advice. A collaborative project that doesn't have everyone on the same page is not one that's going to succeed. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Abeir
Acolyte
26 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2015 : 05:32:12
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
What about the other "magic" deities, such as Azuth? If we decide to make Mystra the -only- deity who dealswith magic, then Azuth could be like a servitor of some sort to Mystra. Or, we can keep Azuth in his current role.
I personally think that if she is just a neutral overseer of all magic/the Weave, lesser deities could just oversee certain aspects or types of magic. As an example, during the ToT when Talos tried to use the aspect named Malyk to gain control over wild magic. I kind of like the idea of a demigod of wild magic under Mystra, one who isn't a rival but that she butts heads with as his antics/plots constantly threaten (but never destroy) the integrity of the Weave. |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
745 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2015 : 03:01:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
quote:
Originally posted by BenN
I think it's a great idea (always good to give our imagination-muscles a work-out!), but I suggest we wait to see what new info & updates will be included in the forthcoming Sword Coast Aventures Guide.
For example, I`m interested to see what (if any) updates there are for the Moonshaes, the High Forest, Evereska, Cormanthor & Evermeet. In the SCAG, I guess there may well be updates for the Moonshaes & High Forest, but probably not for the other places.
Don't forget this book is only about 160 pages so it won't be containing much.
I'm with you guys. Call on me in whatever capacity you'd like. I am a technical writer by trade. Editing is one of my strengths. I specialize in the North, Silver Marches.
I'm not exactly sure what your specific vision is but I'm great with no ToT, pre-ToT, no Spellplague etc. For me the further back the better the lore is. In my own game, the canon events form about 1372 or 1375 onward did not happen.
I think we should really push to enlist George (or secure his permission) so that we have an excellent historical context in which to place the lore we want to see.
I'm also a huge fan of more modularity. |
Edited by - Cards77 on 15 Oct 2015 03:05:14 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2015 : 03:23:12
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I personally wouldn't mind keeping at least some aspects of the ToT (Kelemvor being the god of death, Cyric ascending to divinity). If we didn't want the actual ToT to take place, we could find another way to explain those events. I don't like Cyric, but I like him as a god, if that makes sense.
I would also prefer the god of death to be neutral, like Kelemvor. I think he makes a fair deity.
I'm more for moving forward rather than ret-conning a bunch of things, but if we want to do away with the Spellplague, I could get behind that, at least. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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coach
Senior Scribe
USA
479 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2016 : 18:57:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Well Ed likely could not help with an alternate realms. He sold the rights with retaining a few rights on adding to Lore, that (WotC can over rule at this time.)
actually with the new DM's Guild, he now can (and is!) |
Bloodstone Lands Sage |
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valarmorgulis
Learned Scribe
112 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2016 : 03:39:19
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| I'm redoing the ToT in my home campaign right now. There will be no Kelemvor, no Midnight, and likely no Cyric. Myrkul is neutral (with evil tendencies). So it has some of the things that some of you seem to like. But there will still be a ToT. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2016 : 04:00:32
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| I am a Kelemvor fan myself,but if you make Myrkul neutral, then maybe he can take the place of Kel (as I think the deity of the dead should be neutral) |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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valarmorgulis
Learned Scribe
112 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2016 : 04:43:05
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| I think I'll have Bhaal take over some of the more evil aspects of Myrkul. Kelemvor's okay, but doesn't inspire me, and I definitely don't like Midnight. |
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A collaborative Forgotten Realms done here.
