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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe

Ireland
705 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2015 :  06:59:49  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I don't know about you but the more I read up on the current state of the Realms, the more I really want to see it ripped away from WoTc's grasp. The stories are appalling and the place is just a massive mess.

How about "we" put our heads together and come up with our own version of the Realms? We could designate certain individuals who would make the final call as to which ideas would be part of the finished project. We would also need to decide on the starting year.

What does everyone think?

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*.

Dargoth
Great Reader

Australia
4607 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2015 :  07:19:38  Show Profile  Visit Dargoth's Homepage Send Dargoth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Id actually thought of proposing something similar but not as extreme

I was going to suggest that we keep the current timeline (Im not a fan of the 4ed events, but Im willing to try and push past it and give the 5ed published realms a chance) What I was going to propose was that we try and do a City state (Like City of Splendors) book using the 5th edition rules my suggestion would have been to use Steve Schend's Rhymanthiin and postualte how it would be in 1490 DR

“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”

Emperor Sigismund

"Its good to be the King!"

Mel Brooks

Edited by - Dargoth on 08 Oct 2015 07:20:41
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2015 :  08:25:56  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I believe I've already proposed this several times, but the reception is mixed and lacklustre. It would seem people cannot agree on what they want and what would please everyone so they don't want to start.
That didn't stop me though and I have made a start on a modular campaign setting that can include any novels you wish or alternate novel neutral versions of the events, all the way up to 1375 dr.
I can however find no way to resolve the spell plague nonsense and huge time jump so I stopped at 1375, but I've been including primordials and other bits of 4e lore where it's good enough.
It's very early days and I stopped for a bit while I finish a rule system to go with it, but the timeline is started and I've worked out the cosmology, and I made a start on anauroch and the moonsea.

I don't know if you'll get anyone to help with ur idea, but that shouldn't stop you. WoTC are poor guardians of their IP in my opinion and are concerned only with safe guarding it legal rather than protecting its quality. So I think it's up to us to save it.

If you want to get on board with the project I started then great, I could always use an extra brain. If you want to go it alone then great and I wish you luck, it's a monumental task. And if not then I hope u enjoy what WoTC deliver.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2015 :  12:13:51  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh and the date for me would be Somewhere in the 1340s when things start getting interesting. It allows people to start at the beginning but it's also easier to move things forward with a detailed timeline. It's less easy to go back in time when designing stuff.

Although I would treat the major timeline events as mini campaign sourcebooks so that people can pick any time after 1340 and not have much work to do researching etc.
So if someone wanted to play after the return of shade (an alternate and non naff version) then they could open that sourcebook and see all the updated sections for anauroch and the stone lands and just copy and paste those bits over what's in the big campaign guide and voila they are in 1372.

That's just how id do it though.

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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe

Ireland
705 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2015 :  13:29:23  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Two brains are better then one Dazz. I will help as much as I can.

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2015 :  14:02:04  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Excellent, send me your email address and we can talk shop

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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1265 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2015 :  15:29:46  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Any era in the two decades pre-ToT are the most interesting and appealing Realms days to me.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2015 :  15:39:54  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
But if you didn't have to use the ToT and your version was compatible with later eras that did use the ToT would it matter when you ran a game.
So if you didn't use ToT then Banes church fractures into 3 churches before fzouls non orthodox branch seizes control, myrkul is deposed by jergal, Tiamat and Gilgeam still fight, but otherwise the realms are unaffected (as happens with all toril shattering events, it all gets fixed after by magic).
For those that do use ToT then banes church fractures into bane, xvim, and Cyric, myrkul is replaced by kelemvor, and the unther stuff still happens.
If you want to use novel events then do so, if not then the campaign could provide a more plausible version of events that is playable and has a similar end result.

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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader

USA
2717 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2015 :  23:32:59  Show Profile Send Jeremy Grenemyer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If dissatisfaction with the status quo works as inspiration to write about the Realms, then I say go for it.

The more people writing about the Realms, the better.

Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver).

Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 08 Oct 2015 23:33:33
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe

Ireland
705 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2015 :  23:39:06  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would actually like to see the ToT done away with or handled differently. I think Cyric should just be some mortal who's name fades with time and Midnight doesn't assume the mantle along with Kelemvor.

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2708 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2015 :  23:39:26  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Where would we post our ideas? Here? This idea is good in theory, but there are many scribes here, and not all of us agree on things. I feel there would be a lot of arguing, and nothing would end up getting done. If it was designated to a few people, fine, but again, that would isolate everyone else who may want to contribute.

I would love to write a novel set in the Realms someday though lol.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe

Ireland
705 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2015 :  23:48:01  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Where would we post our ideas? Here? This idea is good in theory, but there are many scribes here, and not all of us agree on things. I feel there would be a lot of arguing, and nothing would end up getting done. If it was designated to a few people, fine, but again, that would isolate everyone else who may want to contribute.

I would love to write a novel set in the Realms someday though lol.



That's why I say we designate a few people to make the final decision. Look we can't please everyone but I think if we put our heads together, we can come up with a better Realms than Wizards. They are turning the Realms into a giant pit of endless facepalming and I want to change that.

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*.
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe

Ireland
705 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2015 :  23:48:59  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
We could even propose a vote?

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2708 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2015 :  23:57:31  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Again though, we risk singling people out, and I'm sure everyone here would want to contribute. There are those here who are more knowledgeable than others in the ways of the Realms, but we're all here because we love the Realms (even if we don't love what is currently happening). We all want a say in what happens.

Maybe certain sages would be responsible for certain aspects. I fully admit I am not the most lore-wise member here, but if I were to contribute, I would be focused on the gods and elves, as those are my favorite aspects of the Realms (though I wouldn't want to be the only one to do it).

Sweet water and light laughter
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2708 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2015 :  23:59:08  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What would be awesome is if we could all work with Ed

Sweet water and light laughter
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Kentinal
Great Reader

4684 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2015 :  00:20:57  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well Ed likely could not help with an alternate realms. He sold the rights with retaining a few rights on adding to Lore, that (WotC can over rule at this time.)

There is also the other issue of some kind of vote of deciding on whom is acceptable to offer an alternative Realms. Who gets to vote?

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2708 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2015 :  00:24:32  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Right, exactly (about the voting).

Sweet water and light laughter
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
1853 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2015 :  02:59:11  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would like to see this develop, but I have reservations about dividing it into sections and giving each section to someone. Individuals will tend to impose their own wishes, and there's nothing wrong with that but it will limit the Realms in the same way as WotC -- only one vision is presented, reflecting the individuals who like that vision enough to develop it.

What I would really like to see, and contribute to, is a more inclusive vision of the Realms. Because none of us is so awesome that absolutely everyone will love what we would do with our section. Duh, I know... but we're each trying to build a setting that we can love in its entirety, rather than taking WotC's bad-with-the-good, so it seems unwise for this kind of project to present only one possible future for each section of the Realms.



  • Markustay's "Misbegotten Realms" is well-developed and many would like to see it presented as a campaign setting. Not all of us want his version to replace all of Faerun, but several of us would like to cherrypick.


  • CorellonsDevout has a strong vision of the elven pantheon and the elves themselves. I (speaking for myself) like it for some campaign purposes, but I would like other options. Going back to a perhaps-forgotten discussion on the Descent... a benevolent Seldarine is great, but a Seldarine which favors most elves and holds a deep grudge against Lolth (and the drow) and "occasionally" pounces on opportunities to screw over other races is also great. It can all depend on the DM's mood and the flavor of each campaign, right?


  • My own major project is more controversial. It returns Toril to a primeval state by extrapolating the "return of the sarrukh" plot that was dropped at the end of 3e. They take over the world and execute an Extreme Makeover: Toril Edition. When it's over, huge jungles dominate the map and reptilians are a lot more common. Basically every city wall has been toppled and the people are scattered.




Obviously, if I were WotC and imposed my vision on everyone, like they've been doing, there would be some (justified) rage. But as a campaign the sarrukh plot works because after it's done we can start anew, with the world as it stands in 1357 or 1490, or at the height of Aryvandaar if we want.

If you want to rearrange the political boundaries or the balance-of-power or the pantheon, I can (eventually) provide an outline, and you can choose for yourself which realms/gods will be rebuilt and which will be replaced.

The point of a campaign setting is to create a foundation, and provide material for enjoying it and expanding it. A string of RSEs (yes, including my sarrukh campaign) which continuously yank the world's stories in random opposing directions while demanding that we all suffer with the consequences is --in my admittedly loudmouthed opinion-- the worst possible design strategy for a setting. Those who need a single canon will get it from WotC. Let's do something different.

Of course I want to see more of George's Impiltur... but I'd also like to see Markustay's, and whatever other versions everybody's put together. I don't want anybody to pick one and only shine a spotlight on that one.

Many of us have elements (RSEs or otherwise) in our home campaigns that others will like, and elements that others will not like. Rather than one new Realms 5.0, I'd like to see a menu.

tl;dr: I think this project should incorporate more than one possible direction whenever possible, because the purpose of a setting is to serve all campaigns, not just the ones that agree with one person's desires.

Thankya if you put up with reading all that.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2708 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2015 :  03:19:23  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh I would keep the Descent, because I like drow too lol (unless we could come up with another explanation for their existence).

I didn't mean one person would work on a certain aspects. I meant groups of people, though I see your point in that even doing it in groups might create a division, and there would probably be division within those groups too.

Please correct me if I misunderstand, but are you suggesting that maybe each of us (or those who want to) provide ideas for the Realms (or several ideas), be it for certain aspects or on a larger scale, and then we can take what we like from those ideas?

Sweet water and light laughter
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Jeff Strix
Acolyte

Germany
21 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2015 :  03:31:32  Show Profile Send Jeff Strix a Private Message  Reply with Quote
To make our own "Candlekeep 5E FRCS", that would be nice. 1490 DR as a starting point, Sundering is over, the parts of Abeir are gone. To focus on different Faerun regions (not only Sword coast and "north"), like for example Thay, Great Dale, Aglarond, Tethyr, Calimshan, Amn, Impiltur, Rashemen and and and. Some information about actual religions and gods coming soon with SGAG (and of cource we can add some own information about gods, if WotC forget about some "important" gods). If WotC don't want to make a 5E FRCS (but instead they make crap and only), we can do it, for us and for all who really need it...theoretically; practically it's of course mega hard work and serious project for long time and only for group of people.

Edited by - Jeff Strix on 09 Oct 2015 03:40:24
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BenN
Senior Scribe

Japan
382 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2015 :  04:39:20  Show Profile Send BenN a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think it's a great idea (always good to give our imagination-muscles a work-out!), but I suggest we wait to see what new info & updates will be included in the forthcoming Sword Coast Aventures Guide.

For example, I`m interested to see what (if any) updates there are for the Moonshaes, the High Forest, Evereska, Cormanthor & Evermeet. In the SCAG, I guess there may well be updates for the Moonshaes & High Forest, but probably not for the other places.
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mastermustard
Seeker

USA
78 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2015 :  06:15:32  Show Profile Send mastermustard a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm kind of just holding out on the hope that Wizards will get their act together and things will be like the good old days again.
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe

Ireland
705 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2015 :  06:35:45  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BenN

I think it's a great idea (always good to give our imagination-muscles a work-out!), but I suggest we wait to see what new info & updates will be included in the forthcoming Sword Coast Aventures Guide.

For example, I`m interested to see what (if any) updates there are for the Moonshaes, the High Forest, Evereska, Cormanthor & Evermeet. In the SCAG, I guess there may well be updates for the Moonshaes & High Forest, but probably not for the other places.



I can tell you right now that SCAG is not going to have what I want and the Realms has already gone in a direction Im not happy with so Dazz and I have decided we are going ahead and anyone else who wants to join is welcome.

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*.
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe

Ireland
705 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2015 :  06:38:02  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Again though, we risk singling people out, and I'm sure everyone here would want to contribute. There are those here who are more knowledgeable than others in the ways of the Realms, but we're all here because we love the Realms (even if we don't love what is currently happening). We all want a say in what happens.

Maybe certain sages would be responsible for certain aspects. I fully admit I am not the most lore-wise member here, but if I were to contribute, I would be focused on the gods and elves, as those are my favorite aspects of the Realms (though I wouldn't want to be the only one to do it).



Like I said before, you can't please everyone and Im not about to take the stance of doing nothing because everyone's ideas won't make it instead of doing something.

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*.
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe

Ireland
705 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2015 :  06:45:11  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BenN

I think it's a great idea (always good to give our imagination-muscles a work-out!), but I suggest we wait to see what new info & updates will be included in the forthcoming Sword Coast Aventures Guide.

For example, I`m interested to see what (if any) updates there are for the Moonshaes, the High Forest, Evereska, Cormanthor & Evermeet. In the SCAG, I guess there may well be updates for the Moonshaes & High Forest, but probably not for the other places.

Don't forget this book is only about 160 pages so it won't be containing much.

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*.
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Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe

Singapore
408 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2015 :  08:33:24  Show Profile Send Derulbaskul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is very much why *My Realms* is the 4E version. While I know it is hated, loathed, and despised by most here with a passion, it provides a nice blank slate on which to create a new version of FR that is hopefully more in line with Ed's original vision before the novels etc... turned many aspects of FR into a horrible un-Realms-like pastiche.

(If I was running another edition, I would probably roll back to 1372 DR or so... and then work out how to kill off a lot of the characters I don't like.)

Like others, I am not confident that WotC will ever become good stewards of the Realms consistent with my interpretation of Ed's vision. (And, yes, that is purely a statement of personal taste.) I've got two options: embrace another world such as Eberron (a definite possibility) or make the Realms my own.

Cheers
D

NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2015 :  08:58:46  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well for me there isn't enough information for 4e or even 5e to make a decent campaign world. Therefore the sensible conclusion is (to me anyway) go back to the beginning, cut out all the novels, god nonsense, RSEs, and anything else that people cannot agree on.
I'm sure nobody cuts out cormyr because they don't like the place, they simply don't play there. However some don't include the ToT, some don't include the return of shade, some don't include the rage of dragons, therefore you cannot have these as mandatory events because it immediately makes the world different for people. Instead they have to be optional but certain permanent outcomes have to occur (like major deaths or destroyed cities).
Once you have a palatable base of a living, breathing world, that has tons of depth. Then you can start adding on optional bits that people can include or not as they wish. All novels and RSEs then become plug and play events that people can include or not (and they can have their own booklet of detail) but the base world stays the same that everyone can use.

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Jeff Strix
Acolyte

Germany
21 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2015 :  13:09:27  Show Profile Send Jeff Strix a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BenN

I think it's a great idea (always good to give our imagination-muscles a work-out!), but I suggest we wait to see what new info & updates will be included in the forthcoming Sword Coast Aventures Guide.

For example, I`m interested to see what (if any) updates there are for the Moonshaes, the High Forest, Evereska, Cormanthor & Evermeet. In the SCAG, I guess there may well be updates for the Moonshaes & High Forest, but probably not for the other places.


I also think, we should wait til we have info from SCAG. After that we should make some voting for the starting year, cos as I see, the opinions about it are different, some of us want Pre-Spellplague, some want Spellplague times (or 4E times), and some (including me) Post-Sundering. As for me, I think 1490 DR would be the best for this case.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2015 :  13:16:52  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Well for me there isn't enough information for 4e or even 5e to make a decent campaign world. Therefore the sensible conclusion is (to me anyway) go back to the beginning, cut out all the novels, god nonsense, RSEs, and anything else that people cannot agree on.
I'm sure nobody cuts out cormyr because they don't like the place, they simply don't play there. However some don't include the ToT, some don't include the return of shade, some don't include the rage of dragons, therefore you cannot have these as mandatory events because it immediately makes the world different for people. Instead they have to be optional but certain permanent outcomes have to occur (like major deaths or destroyed cities).



Cutting out events also makes it different for some people -- some of us do like the novels and events like the ToT.

Besides, unless you go all the way back to the OGB and no further, most novel events have been incorporated into the source material.

I think that regardless of whether or not you like an event, you have to have a consensus on whether or not to include it, and everyone has to stick to it -- otherwise, you get continuity issues. If the general consensus is that the ToT didn't happen, and someone has a major plot point to include that revolves around Myrkul being in the Crown of Horns, then there's a problem.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2015 :  13:42:30  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Unless you have another standard non novel event that means myrkul is in the crown of horns anyway (or at least a part of him). That way it doesn't matter if you use the ToT or not, the important world changing outcomes are the same ( just without the god nonsense).

It's early days yet but I reckon it's achievable to have a base setting that advances along the timeline without novel events that changes the world in a way that is compatible with the novels for comparison.

After all the novels and RSEs have very few permanent outcomes, they are all usually undone sooner or later by other events or artefacts. Things always change, people die (azoun), nations fall (tethyr), new nations appear (silver marches), even new gods, if you have plausible reasons for those events to occur then it I imagine they would be accepted by those who do not want the novel and Rse version of events

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Jeff Strix
Acolyte

Germany
21 Posts

Posted - 09 Oct 2015 :  13:43:06  Show Profile Send Jeff Strix a Private Message  Reply with Quote
...That's why I don't want "to go" to the past of Realms, but go further, after Sundering and create new lore.
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