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Berkthgar
Learned Scribe
USA
163 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Oct 2015 : 22:38:27
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I just finished arch Mage. It was awesome! I have a myriad of questions. Please help my ignorance.
1) demogorgon is more powerful than errtu?
2) why aren't Devils ever summoned. Aren't they just as powerful.
3 ) where is entreri?
4) what's 9+10?
5 is dahlia finally coming back to normal?
6) remember the villains in the never winter series. The lichs and stuff. Where are they now ? Weren't they powerful?
Thanks.
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“Change is not always growth, but growth is often rooted in change.
Drizzt Do'Urden” |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2015 : 22:56:47
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1) Yes. Demogorgon is a demon lord, whereas Errtu is just a balor.
2) They are, just not in Salvatore novels.
3) It hasn't been revealed yet. Some speculate that he's "the human friend of Jarlaxle" that makes a very brief appearance in the book, but I'm hoping that's not the case. Either way, nothing confirmed yet.
4) 910
5) Remains to be seen. Could go either way.
6) Are you talking about Valindra Shadowmantle? I don't recall any other liches, unless you mean Szazss Tam, who's still kicking up trouble through Thay. |
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Berkthgar
Learned Scribe
USA
163 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2015 : 22:59:29
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| 6) I suppose that's who I'm talking about. And wasn't there a problem with zombies attaching neverwinter and Luskan. Like the whole issue with the host tower. What happened to all that shenanigans. Wasn't there an evil possessed woman with the skull jewel that housed the soul of a wizard in the sewers of Luskan? |
“Change is not always growth, but growth is often rooted in change.
Drizzt Do'Urden” |
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2015 : 23:48:55
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Lolth is a demon, and many demons work for her. Drow are chaotic evil. Demons suit them better than devils
Arkem Greeth, former master of the Hostower and the one who directed the zombies, was the other lich. I believe Gromph has him. Don't know where Valindra is, besides terrorizing PCs in Neverwinter online. She might be with Szazz Tam |
"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2015 : 23:49:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Berkthgar
6) I suppose that's who I'm talking about. And wasn't there a problem with zombies attaching neverwinter and Luskan. Like the whole issue with the host tower. What happened to all that shenanigans. Wasn't there an evil possessed woman with the skull jewel that housed the soul of a wizard in the sewers of Luskan?
Those issues are part of the 'Neverwinter Campaign Setting'. Salvatore isn't really writing for that project any more - WotC are continuing to license it out to others.
I believe the woman you mention IS Valindra Shadowmantle. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2015 : 02:38:28
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quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
quote:
Originally posted by Berkthgar
6) I suppose that's who I'm talking about. And wasn't there a problem with zombies attaching neverwinter and Luskan. Like the whole issue with the host tower. What happened to all that shenanigans. Wasn't there an evil possessed woman with the skull jewel that housed the soul of a wizard in the sewers of Luskan?
Those issues are part of the 'Neverwinter Campaign Setting'. Salvatore isn't really writing for that project any more - WotC are continuing to license it out to others.
I believe the woman you mention IS Valindra Shadowmantle.
If memory serves, that's correct. I think they "resolved" Valindra's story in the MMO, but I might be remebering a fan created quest. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Berkthgar
Learned Scribe
USA
163 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2015 : 04:24:17
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Can the primordial obliterate demogorgon?
What devil ranks as high as demogorgon? Thanks |
“Change is not always growth, but growth is often rooted in change.
Drizzt Do'Urden” |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2015 : 04:27:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Berkthgar
I just finished arch Mage. It was awesome! I have a myriad of questions. Please help my ignorance.
1) demogorgon is more powerful than errtu?
2) why aren't Devils ever summoned. Aren't they just as powerful.
3 ) where is entreri?
4) what's 9+10?
5 is dahlia finally coming back to normal?
6) remember the villains in the never winter series. The lichs and stuff. Where are they now ? Weren't they powerful?
Thanks.
1) Demogorgon is a LOTTTTTTTTTTT more powerful than Errtu. Demogorgon is pretty much cemented as the most powerful demon in the Abyss (once Orcus lost his godhood).
I thought the book was very clear on Demogorgon's power. It calls Gromph a mere insect compared to Demogorgon (and Gromph would kill Errtu). It also says that even Lolth (presumably her avatar) would not risk a physical confrontation with Demogorgon. He's easily the most powerful villain we've ever seen unleashed in an RAS novel.
2) Devils are equally powerful, but they are Lawful Evil. They can't just be summoned to just randomly destroy stuff the way demons can. Plus, drow always seek to be in control of everyone around them, and devils would inevitably outscheme the drow and eventually take control of the situation. Demons are a safer bet from the drow's perspective.
3) Don't know. Can't wait to see him!
4) The number of drow Entreri can kill before anybody realizes they are under attack.
5) Yes, but keep in mind that Lolth will fight tooth and nail to keep Dahlia enslaved. And keep in mind that even normal Dahlia is crazy and unpredictable.
6) I don't know where Valindra went. I was enjoying her storyline of attempting to regain her sanity and restore Arklem Greeth to a physical body. And she still owes Jarlaxle some payback. |
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Berkthgar
Learned Scribe
USA
163 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2015 : 05:17:31
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Hopefully the next novel will allow us to catch up on the ole gang. The tiefling, regis and wulfgar, the monk.
I think it was actually less claustrophobic not having to worry about regis and wulfgar this book. |
“Change is not always growth, but growth is often rooted in change.
Drizzt Do'Urden” |
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Veritas
Learned Scribe
209 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2015 : 06:04:04
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Lolth is a demon queen, hence drow summon demons. She doesn't have sway in the 9 hells.
By 2e, Demogorgon was treated as a lesser god and essentially was the most powerful of the demon lords.
He's since been kicked down a few notches. He really shouldn't be a blip on Lolth's radar. I'm not a fan of the level scaling system they put in for 4e-5e. Sure Prince Demo wasn't all that in 3e either, but bounding demon lords to around cr 25-30ish seems underpowered in an FR context. |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2015 : 10:15:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Berkthgar
Can the primordial obliterate demogorgon?
Potentially. Would be an open outcome
quote:
What devil ranks as high as demogorgon? Thanks
Asmodeus, maybe mephistopheled |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2015 : 10:16:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Veritas
, but bounding demon lords to around cr 25-30ish seems underpowered in an FR context.
well full fledged lesser deities are cr30 in 5e |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2015 : 11:39:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Veritas
(...)
By 2e, Demogorgon was treated as a lesser god and essentially was the most powerful of the demon lords.
(...)
There were other powerful demons treated as lesser gods, like Baphomet, Graz'zt and Kostchtchie. Orcus (Tenebrous), as mentioned by Lilianviaten was also in the list, just as Lolth. Later it was explained that they were demons lords who gathered worship power and became deities, and that lolth was a deity transformed into a demon queen and later becoming a goddess once again. 
EDIT: Forgot mentioning Pazuzu (or Pazrael)... These are the most known, but there are others. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 08 Oct 2015 14:52:13 |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2015 : 15:17:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Berkthgar
Can the primordial obliterate demogorgon?
Potentially. Would be an open outcome
quote:
What devil ranks as high as demogorgon? Thanks
Asmodeus, maybe mephistopheled
I would pay good money to read a battle between Mephistopheles and Demogorgon. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2015 : 14:50:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Berkthgar
(...)
What devil ranks as high as demogorgon?
(...)
In 2e the Lords of the Nine Hells were very powerful and unique devils, in a way similar to some demon lords. But only Asmodeus, as far as I remember, was ranked, like the demons mentioned above, as being as powerful as a deity. But I THINK he was a deity of greater stature, not only a lesser god. I'm not sure, also, if the demon lords and princes mentioned before were downgraded in power when they were deemed "abyssal lords"in PlaneScape, but I think so. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Veritas
Learned Scribe
209 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2015 : 16:40:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
There were other powerful demons treated as lesser gods, like Baphomet, Graz'zt and Kostchtchie. Orcus (Tenebrous), as mentioned by Lilianviaten was also in the list, just as Lolth. Later it was explained that they were demons lords who gathered worship power and became deities, and that lolth was a deity transformed into a demon queen and later becoming a goddess once again.
EDIT: Forgot mentioning Pazuzu (or Pazrael)... These are the most known, but there are others.
Certainly there was. I did not mean to imply Demogorgon was exclusive in that category. I would have preferred it if they kept it that way.
As for Mirtek's reply, yep, lesser gods are CR 30. That works well enough mechanically I suppose with a party level limit of 20, but for those of us who like to model out the world, that in my view is too limited to effectively model high powered beings below lesser god status. I couldn't translate Larloch, the Simbul, Elminster, etc. each of whom I'd put at a CR 30 at a minimum (Larloch far more), but I wouldn't put any of them at lesser god status. Now I'd have to "throw out the book" to place things in a way I'd feel is more accurate.
Unrelatedly to Mirtek, I know you're prolific here but it is good to see you around. I remember way back on the old WoTC forums (around 15 years ago and I had a different pseudonym) we had a knock down drag out forum fight for many many pages about the merits and demerits of Bane vs. Cyric that still tickles the memory. |
Edited by - Veritas on 08 Oct 2015 16:42:13 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2015 : 16:50:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Veritas
Certainly there was. I did not mean to imply Demogorgon was exclusive in that category. I would have preferred it if they kept it that way.
As for Mirtek's reply, yep, lesser gods are CR 30. That works well enough mechanically I suppose with a party level limit of 20, but for those of us who like to model out the world, that in my view is too limited to effectively model high powered beings below lesser god status. I couldn't translate Larloch, the Simbul, Elminster, etc. each of whom I'd put at a CR 30 at a minimum (Larloch far more), but I wouldn't put any of them at lesser god status. Now I'd have to "throw out the book" to place things in a way I'd feel is more accurate.
D&D isn't a good system to model a world, though. Its rules are way too rigid and rough (and far fetched, at times) to make for a good model. CR is also a very vague and unreliable indication of a creature's power: I've seen people claiming that standard groups of PCs can take down creatures up to a CR that is about equal to the party's average level, plus ten (5e rules).
At the end of the day, you'd have to throw out the book anyway, as D&D is too game-y to reliably model complex things. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Berkthgar
Learned Scribe
USA
163 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2015 : 16:50:44
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| I just hope my DM doesn't give us demogorgon to battle! |
“Change is not always growth, but growth is often rooted in change.
Drizzt Do'Urden” |
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Veritas
Learned Scribe
209 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2015 : 17:24:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Berkthgar
I just hope my DM doesn't give us demogorgon to battle!
If we learned anything from Baldur's Gate: Throne of Bhaal (the game, not the book), it is that Demo is extremely vulnerable to trip mines. |
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Drustan Dwnhaedan
Learned Scribe
USA
324 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2015 : 16:49:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Berkthgar
I just finished arch Mage. It was awesome! I have a myriad of questions. Please help my ignorance.
1) demogorgon is more powerful than errtu?
2) why aren't Devils ever summoned. Aren't they just as powerful.
3 ) where is entreri?
4) what's 9+10?
5 is dahlia finally coming back to normal?
6) remember the villains in the never winter series. The lichs and stuff. Where are they now ? Weren't they powerful?
Thanks.
1) Demogorgon is decidedly more powerful than Errtu.
2) They are, just not in RAS novels.
3) No clue. Hope he shows up soon.
4) Average IQ of a blonde.
5) When was Dahlia ever normal?
6) Again, no clue. Best guess, either dead or soon to be dead. |
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Berkthgar
Learned Scribe
USA
163 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2015 : 12:53:18
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Would you say Tiago now is like how entreri was back during the halflings gem days? Eager to kill drizzt to prove something to himself.
Do you think entreri has become more lawful evil than ever before. Rather than just plain old evil. |
“Change is not always growth, but growth is often rooted in change.
Drizzt Do'Urden” |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2015 : 15:24:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Berkthgar
Would you say Tiago now is like how entreri was back during the halflings gem days? Eager to kill drizzt to prove something to himself.
Do you think entreri has become more lawful evil than ever before. Rather than just plain old evil.
Entreri has been moving toward Neutral alignment ever since he spared Morik the Rogue's life in Servant of the Shard. After his time being enslaved to Herzgo Alegni, he's definitely not evil. (You could even argue that he was Neutral after Road of the Patriarch, but he's definitely Neutral now.) He never seeks killing as the first option anymore, and he's shown remorse about many of the evil acts he was forced to commit in service to the Netherese.
As for the Tiago comparison, I can see it, but there is a difference. Tiago is seeking glory and increased standing in drow society (which is a fool's errand). Entreri was seeking to justify his existence as an evil loner, because he had convinced himself that the only way to survive this world was by never trusting anyone and showing no mercy. Drizzt showed him that he was wrong (as did Jarlaxle, in his own way). Drizzt has friends, he goes out of his way to sacrifice his own safety to help others, and he even spared Entreri's life out of compassion. Yet Drizzt is still alive, and he's still the superior warrior. |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2015 : 18:06:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
quote:
Originally posted by Berkthgar
Would you say Tiago now is like how entreri was back during the halflings gem days? Eager to kill drizzt to prove something to himself.
Do you think entreri has become more lawful evil than ever before. Rather than just plain old evil.
Entreri has been moving toward Neutral alignment ever since he spared Morik the Rogue's life in Servant of the Shard. After his time being enslaved to Herzgo Alegni, he's definitely not evil. (You could even argue that he was Neutral after Road of the Patriarch, but he's definitely Neutral now.) He never seeks killing as the first option anymore, and he's shown remorse about many of the evil acts he was forced to commit in service to the Netherese.
As for the Tiago comparison, I can see it, but there is a difference. Tiago is seeking glory and increased standing in drow society (which is a fool's errand). Entreri was seeking to justify his existence as an evil loner, because he had convinced himself that the only way to survive this world was by never trusting anyone and showing no mercy. Drizzt showed him that he was wrong (as did Jarlaxle, in his own way). Drizzt has friends, he goes out of his way to sacrifice his own safety to help others, and he even spared Entreri's life out of compassion. Yet Drizzt is still alive, and he's still the superior warrior.
I would disagree with Entreri not being "evil" anymore. While he doesn't seek killing someone as the go-to option, he certainly doesn't have any qualms about doing so either. So long as he still kills people, which he very much does, he isn't a not evil character. Unless we consider people in our society that kills others to be not evil, then sure, Entreri's not evil. You can't argue that it's a different world, because last I checked, killing people isn't accepted as all right either in Faerun. Entreri still does what the most efficient thing is, and he's still very much about "what benefits me the most". I'd agree with him being Neutral Evil, but not True Neutral.
The juxtaposition between him and Drizzt is very clear throughout the Neverwinter Saga and even in Night of the Hunter, where we saw Entreri last. Simply recognizing that there are moral repercussions to the task but doing it regardless does not make him not evil when he does those things anyway. Likewise, "lawful evil" is arguably the most evil of the evil alignments, because the "lawful" aspect simply states that the individual will always do a deed regardless of how minor it is so long as it adheres to their code of law. Thus, some of the most cruel acts of evil could fall into this category, whereas someone of the neutral evil or chaotic evil alignments might not necessarily perform the same deed. Unlike the lawful evil, neutral/chaotic evil look a lot more to how they personally feel about something in guiding that evil act, rather than the stoic absolutism of a set of "law".
I would also argue against Drizzt sparing Entreri's life out of compassion. Out of his hope that Entreri could be redeemed, sure, but that's more along the lines of the whole the goodly must redeem everything perspective. Drizzt spares Entreri during Neverwinter explicitly because Entreri was his last tie to his former life, and even though it wasn't the sort of tie that he liked, it was better than nothing.
This is my personal opinion, so feel free to disregard it. I'm honestly puzzled by the feeling that Entreri needs to be "redeemed". Honestly, I feel that the character has his appeal exactly because he isn't yet another Drizzt Do'Urden. The whole redemption story trope is overdone, predictable and boring. Entreri will cease to be interesting if he did become "redeemed". As much as I love the character, I would've been ok with it if his story had ended with Road of the Patriarch as RAS originally had intended and we never saw him again after that. The Sellswords saw Entreri in a position in which he dealt with his past, but left him with a life in which many questions remained to be answered. He didn't ride off into the sunset facing a bright future, he rode off with the sky lit by smoldering fires into an existence that was as clear as the smoke-filled sky. His life is as likely to be less shoddy than the one he had as it is to be exactly as the same as it was, since he didn't actually solve any issues by killing the head priest. He certainly had no qualms about killing his supposed father and any that came in his way, and there was no indication that that tendency of his was going to change at the end of RotP.
Also, while I don't disagree that Drizzt is the better swordsman, I don't think it's as simple as it's because Drizzt has friends and Entreri doesn't. In the four decades that Entreri spent as a slave, during which his personal schedule was anything but his own, it stands to reason that he couldn't keep up with his training as much as he'd like, and instead find times to keep his skills as honed as possible in between the tasks that the Netherese put unto him. Whereas Drizzt made his own schedule, as turbulent as the times were, he still nonetheless had freedom of choice. If we go back in time to when Drizzt and Entreri first squared off, keep in mind that Entreri had, what, two decades at most? To level with Drizzt's more than half a century of training. The fact that they were even speaks quite a bit to Entreri's potential, not to mention that he could still level with Drizzt post-Neverwinter despite the difference in the way they spent the forty years. Now, the reason that Drizzt's plight in life allows him to do as he pleases is indeed due to the fact that he's always had people he could trust to watch his back, so yes, having friends indirectly has helped him be the better swordsman. However, it isn't automatic that one's skill is directly proportional to one's personal popularity. |
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Berkthgar
Learned Scribe
USA
163 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2015 : 21:29:57
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Who holds the famed jeweled dagger these days 1484 dr ? And charons claw is on par with khazid he'a? Entreri possesses the sword ?
And the ruby pendant from a century ago. Where is that? |
“Change is not always growth, but growth is often rooted in change.
Drizzt Do'Urden” |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2015 : 01:35:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Berkthgar
Who holds the famed jeweled dagger these days 1484 dr ? And charons claw is on par with khazid he'a? Entreri possesses the sword ?
And the ruby pendant from a century ago. Where is that?
All these questions have been answered in recent books. When you said you had just finished Archmage, I think it was implied that you've been keeping up with the series.
1) Beniago had the dagger, and Entreri took it back from him at Drizzt's request.
2) Entreri flat out tells Drizzt that Charon's Claw is a much more powerful sword than Cutter.
3) There was a whole book dedicated to Entreri's quest to destroy Charon's Claw and be removed from servitude. He doesn't wield the blade anymore, because if he tried, it would just enslave him again. It is in the pit of the primordial.
Asking for recaps on certain stuff is perfectly fine, because we all forget things. However, your questions are beginning to sound like you skipped a few books and want spoilers. No big deal, but just say that. But you also mentioned that you've read RAS religiously for the last 20 years or so. From the questions you've been asking, I certainly can't tell. |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2015 : 01:46:30
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Actually, as of the most current time, we don't know the fate of the dagger. Entreri left it in Port Llast hidden in the roof of a building before the drow captured him and dragged him to Q'Xorlarrin. Last we saw/heard of Entreri, it's only that he got away from the drow, but nothing's been said about whether he was reunited with his dagger or not.
The fate of the ruby pendant is just sorta lost. I think mentions of it was just dropped after Regis tried to use it to help Catti-brie out of her spelltouched state, but it had ended up putting him into one as well. |
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Berkthgar
Learned Scribe
USA
163 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2015 : 05:38:53
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| Kind of nostalgic to think about it right haha? |
“Change is not always growth, but growth is often rooted in change.
Drizzt Do'Urden” |
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Topic |
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Archmage questions. Spoilers!
