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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 16:50:25
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Not sure where to stick this - D&D core or 'computer products'. However, I want it discussed so I'll just stick it here where everyone can see it, and weigh-in on it.
Pathfinder Online on shaky ground
I feel this somehow does not bode well for the industry in general, although MORPGs are a separate but related beast. Also, in the long run, a weakening of the PF brand might mean WotC will stop losing ground in the market. This could go either way. Thoughts?
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Sep 2015 19:02:15
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Hippo
Acolyte
USA
16 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 17:03:54
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Pathfinder Online is not canceled and is continuing to put out new updates.
They did lay off the majority of their staff and the studio was disbanded and brought back under Paizo. They're also short around 2 million dollars to "complete" the game.
I don't see any correlation between PFO effectively going into triage and a hit towards the industry. They were competing against other MMOs that were just better. PFO offered nothing new that wasn't being done by someone else. Not only were they offering nothing new they were charging a monthly fee on top of charging for the game while it was a complete mess. You don't sell a car missing it's wheels, doors, and has half a steering wheel and expect to make an impact in the industry. The game was a mess and I think it's reflected by them starting to slowly die. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 17:45:43
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Aye, I think its more a case of MMO-fatigue than fantasy RPG-fatigue that is at the core of the problem for PFO.
Golarion deserves some digital representation, though. I'd like to see a chunk of it rendered in glorious HD. Probably a long way off... |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 18:31:16
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| I watched some demos at Gen Con. Taking on a MMO is a massive, gigantic burden. It's really difficult to compete in the market. I didn't see anything that made it stand out from others. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 18:56:17
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I read the email that was sent out about it, and I didn't read it as a cancellation -- they specifically said it would keep going as long as they held at least 50% of its current subscribers, and that they were in talks with several companies to be able to get everything completed.
It's far from ideal, obviously, but it's not as dark as a full on cancellation. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 19:00:16
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Thanks for the correction/clarification, Hippo.
I'm not really seeing how Paizo is going to foot the rest of the bill; it may become their albatross. If they take too much from the rest of the company to keep it going, other areas may take a hit, and there will be backlash. Considering how poorly this is already being received in a saturated market, Paizo is probably better off just abandoning it (although, thats probably just how Hasbro feels about D&D these days).
Ahhhh, once again, hubris may have gone hand-in-hand with initial success. They were probably banking on their fandom automatically playing it no matter what, but we geeks are a finicky lot. We actually have pretty high standards, even when it come to our obsessions.
(so I hope the mods will see how this directly correlates to D&D and FR, so it is relevant). 
Golarion is a worthy successor to The Realms, and given enough time, could surpass it in lore. I doubt it, but it has the potential. I wish them well, but they really should bow-out gracefully on this one... while they still can.
EDIT: Edited my 1st post because new information made it seem misleading. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Sep 2015 19:03:07 |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 19:29:20
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Just a little clarification: Goblinworks is a separate company from Paizo, although it shares some leadership (Lisa Stevens in particular). Goblinworks has an exclusive license to develop and market an MMO based on the Pathfinder property as well, but it's not the same company.
From what I understand, Paizo (as a company) doesn't actually stand to lose anything if Goblinworks goes fully under. The game and code belong to Goblinworks, while the world belongs to Paizo. If Goblinworks gets purchased, the license they have goes with it. If they disappear entirely--which is not likely, given that it could continue to exist without ever actually doing anything--the corporation would maintain the rights to make an MMO based on Golarion for however long the contractual agreement allows. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
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Hippo
Acolyte
USA
16 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 22:15:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm not really seeing how Paizo is going to foot the rest of the bill; it may become their albatross.
Paizo won't be giving them any funds. They're currently operating strictly from the monthly subscription that players are paying with hopes they can shop the game around and get it picked up.
quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
Just a little clarification: Goblinworks is a separate company from Paizo, although it shares some leadership (Lisa Stevens in particular). Goblinworks has an exclusive license to develop and market an MMO based on the Pathfinder property as well, but it's not the same company.
Thought I read somewhere that Paizo was taking the reigns back. My mistake.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And wasn't the game initially a Kickstarter, anyway?
It was and did decently well if memory serves. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 23:13:13
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I think it was one of the largest in history - over a million, wasn't it?
And I guess that still wasn't enough. Takes money to make money, as they say.
And I wasn't saying Paizo was losing anything, what I said was that they stand to lose something if they try to finish it themselves, which is the notion I got when I read that article.
They've taken back control of it, and from what I gathered, hired-back the people who were laid-off under their own umbrella... unless I'm mistaken?
Hope this doesn't become their version of WotC's 'virtual tabletop'.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Sep 2015 06:29:24 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2015 : 02:15:36
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| Bear in mind, I invested about $200 in pathfinder online kickstarter. I tried to play the game. I ran around for hours trying to collect garbage to craft with. Essentially, what I want in the way of crafting for a pathfinder game is exactly what pathfinder does. If I'm willing to waste skill points on crafting instead of something else.... I should just automatically be a better crafter. I'm not looking for a time sink. I didn't get much further into the game, but the few things I looked at... all I could think was "this isn't pathfinder... this is someone making an MMO". |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2015 : 03:00:36
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MMORPGs as a market remain the same as it has always been. It's WoW and then everyone else. Even then, WoW is headed towards a steady decline, but they had a good solid decade run which is unprecedented with their number of subscribers. The subscription model is also for the most part outdated (except for WoW, for now) and most other games have switched to Free-to-Play with in-game purchases (sometimes 'pay-to-win') models. This has boosted tablet games to widespread popularity and also fueled the MOBA games to become the current 'it' MMOs.
I've backed a lot of Kickstarters, but the Pathfinder MMO was fortunately one I didn't put money on. It did not feel compelling at the time, and still doesn't seem interesting. This is coming from a fan who was a super-subscriber to their paper RPG products up until a few months ago. I stopped only because I ran out of room to store all those books, but remain a subscriber of their Adventure Paths.
In the same time frame, I backed several 'old school' CRPGs that aimed to fill the shoes of the old isometric Infinity Engine games and games of that era. Several of these spiritual successors have released (Shadowrun Returns, Divinity: Original Sin, Wastelands 2, Pillars of Eternity). For the most part they have been well received and I see their banners plastered all over various gaming e-retailers. Several have spawned expansions and/or preparing sequels. While they may not be mega-blockbusters on the scale of the Witcher or Dragon Age, they are for the most part as mainstream and respected in the CRPG genre as those better-funded flagship products.
Even if Paizo found a partner to help finish and fund the rest of the project and if their current subscriber base doesn't abandon ship after a few months in its current state (unlikely to hold steady I think), a traditional subscription MMO is a tough sell. We've seen far better funded efforts flounder over the years and the used far more famous and venerable IP (Warhammer: Age of Reckoning, Age of Conan, Star Wars: The Old Republic, and even D&D Online).
Though it would be a departure from their original plans, I think the best way to salvage funds spend on the Pathfinder MMO is to convert the assets into a more traditional CRPG. The other CRPG Kickstarters completed their games with just a few million dollars. Pathfinder MMO already has over a million in art and engine assets. Then again, not being a game designer or programmer, I'm not sure of the feasibility and costs of such a conversion project. |
Edited by - Dark Wizard on 05 Sep 2015 07:44:45 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2015 : 06:38:03
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From the little I know (haven't programmed - beyond modding - in years), it is far easier to go in that direction then the other.
Its all the multi-player online stuff that takes the most time and code, IMO. If they got the engine and graphics (most, anyway), they've already got the makings of decent CRPG. All the need now is a storyline, tons of quests strung together, and a grand finale. Thats more the 'lore' end of things if the code is already in-place.
And if they make the main storyline to discover what happened to Aroden, then I think they might just make out rather well (if they were willing to divulge that now). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Sep 2015 06:39:04 |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2015 : 10:54:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
The subscription model is also for the most part outdated (except for WoW, for now)
Final Fantasy XIV also uses a subscription model, and while it certainly hasn't reached the success levels of WoW, the game is a success and there's no indication that it'll be going F2P anytime soon.
I have never played Pathfinder online, but from the few videos I've seen its problem isn't the subscription fee, but rather it being an average to mediocre game. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2015 : 13:40:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Hippo
They were competing against other MMOs that were just better. PFO offered nothing new that wasn't being done by someone else.
Really? Because the only realy famous sandbox MMO I know about currently is Eve Online.
There may be others but I guess they are more of a niche. Even Eve can't compete with some of the theme park MMOs player numbers.
So PFO going for a similiar style as eve but with a fantasy instead of a SciFi setting could have a good chance if they do it right.
I can't say anything about the quality of the game so far, so if there are a lot of problems it could explain this step.
I for myself was very interested in PFOs future, even though I probably wouldnÄt have played it besides Eve. |
Edited by - _Jarlaxle_ on 06 Sep 2015 13:41:32 |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
657 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2015 : 16:56:11
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| Maybe they should redirect the remaining funds to Paizo Game Space, that seems like a realistic goal. |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2015 : 20:01:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
The subscription model is also for the most part outdated (except for WoW, for now)
Final Fantasy XIV also uses a subscription model, and while it certainly hasn't reached the success levels of WoW, the game is a success and there's no indication that it'll be going F2P anytime soon.
I have never played Pathfinder online, but from the few videos I've seen its problem isn't the subscription fee, but rather it being an average to mediocre game.
Did say "for the most part".
For years Square Enix struggled with FFXI and its expansions as a second-tier MMO (though probably the best option on console systems). If it didn't have the Final Fantasy name attached or the backing of a major company like Square Enix it would have folded long ago.
Despite their experience, (as many of the producers and team members of FFXI moved on to FFXIV), FFXIV launched with lackluster reviews and reception. The situation became so poor subscriptions were suspended for a time.
The game was revamped with improvements as FFXIV: A Realm Reborn. It is this version, after all the prior attempts and lessons learned, that the team has finally produced a MMORPG with good reception and a rapidly growing subscriber base (then again, the quote the game's lifetime subscriptions, not current numbers).
What did it take to succeed with a 'new' subscription MMO?
Only one of the most well-known and experienced video game RPG companies, using their most famous and venerable IP, after years of retooling and refinement and a near disaster, and primarily within the console market (while FFXIV is on computer, I'd imagine consoles players are their main draw).
Even Blizzard is not reliant on WoW's subscription base. They just shunt their F2P ideas to other IP, Diablo III, Heroes of the Storm, and soon Overwatch. |
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Hippo
Acolyte
USA
16 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2015 : 21:28:44
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
quote:
Originally posted by Hippo
They were competing against other MMOs that were just better. PFO offered nothing new that wasn't being done by someone else.
Really? Because the only realy famous sandbox MMO I know about currently is Eve Online.
There may be others but I guess they are more of a niche. Even Eve can't compete with some of the theme park MMOs player numbers.
So PFO going for a similiar style as eve but with a fantasy instead of a SciFi setting could have a good chance if they do it right.
I can't say anything about the quality of the game so far, so if there are a lot of problems it could explain this step.
I for myself was very interested in PFOs future, even though I probably wouldnÄt have played it besides Eve.
I'll go with just fantasy sandbox MMOs that are currently in a released and playable form. Albion Online (In beta with more players than PFO), Black Desert (In beta. Has larger population than Eve), Darkfall Unholy Wars, Mortal Online, Wurm Online, and ArcheAge(Has larger population than Eve). These are all fantasy sandbox games that are what PFO is competing against and they're more developed games. I would consider them on par or above where PFO is currently at.
Not only is PFO competing against them, but it will soon have to compete against Camelot Unchained which recently began doing weekend betas. Camelot Unchained obtained it's funding from Kickstarter as well, but it obtained $2,232,933 at 14,873 backers vs Pathfinders $1,091,194 at 8,732 backers. After the kickstarters ended I have no idea how much Pathfinder brought in, but I know Camelot is currently sitting at $3,577,158 from their backers.
PFO released as a subscription modeled game that was not even remotely close to being finished. Most of their systems were incomplete, buggy, or non-existent. Outside of the Pathfinder license I don't know of anything unique to the game. Having bought into the game, keeping up with it, and watching the forums and interviews they really seem to have banked on it being Pathfinder and that the Pathfinder players would flock to support them. That hasn't happened and I would risk guessing that the majority of MMO players are not willing to subscribe for $15 a month to a game that offers them nothing new, unique, and even comes across as broken.
Edit to add -
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
For years Square Enix struggled with FFXI and its expansions as a second-tier MMO (though probably the best option on console systems). If it didn't have the Final Fantasy name attached or the backing of a major company like Square Enix it would have folded long ago.
Square Enix never struggled with FFXI. It was one of the hottest MMORPGs on the market. It was met with fantastic sales and rave reviews. On PC the only games it competed with were EQ, DAOC, Lineage, AC, and AC2. Subscription number wise FFXI was on par with EQ which was the gold standard for western MMOs at the time. Lineage had more active subscribers than either of them though.
FFXI didn't compete on the console MMO market with anyone until 2003 and the release of Everquest Online Adventures. The console market for them didn't really pick up until later on in the life cycle of the game because the Playstation 2 required you to also own the Hard Drive and Modem to play online. Plus the Xbox 360 version of FFXI was not out yet.
FFIV's first attempt was atrocious and it's super interesting to see how well their second attempt at a launch is going. Last I saw they were above 5 million subs which is fantastic for companies to see a big name do a successful relaunch. |
Edited by - Hippo on 06 Sep 2015 21:43:12 |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2015 : 22:53:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Hippo
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
For years Square Enix struggled with FFXI and its expansions as a second-tier MMO (though probably the best option on console systems). If it didn't have the Final Fantasy name attached or the backing of a major company like Square Enix it would have folded long ago.
Square Enix never struggled with FFXI. It was one of the hottest MMORPGs on the market. It was met with fantastic sales and rave reviews. On PC the only games it competed with were EQ, DAOC, Lineage, AC, and AC2. Subscription number wise FFXI was on par with EQ which was the gold standard for western MMOs at the time. Lineage had more active subscribers than either of them though.
FFXI didn't compete on the console MMO market with anyone until 2003 and the release of Everquest Online Adventures. The console market for them didn't really pick up until later on in the life cycle of the game because the Playstation 2 required you to also own the Hard Drive and Modem to play online. Plus the Xbox 360 version of FFXI was not out yet.
FFIV's first attempt was atrocious and it's super interesting to see how well their second attempt at a launch is going. Last I saw they were above 5 million subs which is fantastic for companies to see a big name do a successful relaunch.
In retrospect I overstated the 'struggle', but its sales and numbers were lackluster, at least in the eyes of Square Enix's management at the onset (despite the lack of competition), most likely because of the reasons you stated with the hardware not up to spec at the time in supporting the game. That's not a good thing as the delay meant its peak arrived around the time of WoW (released late 2004, on the rise in 2005-2006, just as FFXI was floating around under half a million subs) and other comparable games (especially games that offered a JRPG aesthetic like Lineage II, Guild Wars, Perfect World etc.).
I guess Square Enix wanted to dominate (considering its brand name), but it was just the (relative) first among many. It would be WoW that would break out to become the phenomenon it was. FFXI might have been king on the consoles, but it peaked at around 500K subscribers, where as Lineage II using a relatively new IP hit 1.3 million at around the same time. It is also interesting to note that the critic reviews of Lineage II are inferior to FFXI, but it still managed to have subscribers (at peak in 2007) outnumber it by an order of magnitude. It must have been frustrating being SquareEnix, being able to see the pie, but unable to take a bigger piece of it despite the prestige of its ::ahem:: lineage.
Certainly it is now regarded as one of the most profitable of the Final Fantasy series (which is impressive considering the franchise), but that was not until looking back a decade later in 2012. Then again, none of its non-MMO FF brethren could sustain steady sales like a subscription service for over a decade, but that's an apples to oranges comparison as they weren't meant to.
I'll also admit to using Wiki for my numbers info, but their sources are consistent. I played these games about a decade ago for a trial or a couple of months and don't consider myself an expert. However, certain games I've notice "stick around" in the collective gamer culture. Even discounting WoW, FFXI isn't at the top of the list.
The turn of FFXIV from terrible to well-regarding is good to see and a sign Square Enix is firmly behind the game. The positive thing about MMOs is almost nothing is set in stone and changes can be made to improve the game. The downside is that resources required to sustain it are greatly increased. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2015 : 11:44:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Hippo
I'll go with just fantasy sandbox MMOs that are currently in a released and playable form. Albion Online (In beta with more players than PFO), Black Desert (In beta. Has larger population than Eve), Darkfall Unholy Wars, Mortal Online, Wurm Online, and ArcheAge(Has larger population than Eve). These are all fantasy sandbox games that are what PFO is competing against and they're more developed games. I would consider them on par or above where PFO is currently at.
Thanks, I never heard from most of them before. But atleast I wouldn't consider Wurm online a similar type of game. Also Albion says that it is running on PC and a various of mobile plattforms so I guess it has a rather simplistic playstyle. At the end it depends what type of game people want to play. |
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Hippo
Acolyte
USA
16 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2015 : 22:20:29
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
Thanks, I never heard from most of them before. But atleast I wouldn't consider Wurm online a similar type of game. Also Albion says that it is running on PC and a various of mobile plattforms so I guess it has a rather simplistic playstyle. At the end it depends what type of game people want to play.
Outside of Terraforming Wurm has a deeper customization system in place than Pathfinder does and is actually more open ended in gameplay and creation systems for the world and what players can accomplish.
Albion's customization actually appears to be on par with PFO, but looks like it's handled more like how Path of Exile handles character customization. Outside of being third person ALA Ultima (Which I believe is what they were going for, a Modern style Ultima) and it being on Mac, Linux, and Tablets, it's more stable than PFO while offering the a sandbox to play in.
I'm hoping PFO is handed over to another company to work on. I would love to continue to adventure in their world, but they really need to look at what they are doing and did and fix some things. My Dwarf cleric is waiting for me one day. |
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ZeshinX
Learned Scribe
Canada
210 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2015 : 15:16:26
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An MMO was a bad choice for Pathfinder RPG's first foray into video game land. Me thinks a better option would have been an offline adventure like a Baldur's Gate or Neverwinter Nights or Skyrim. It also doesn't help that it didn't much resemble the Pathfinder RPG in any significant way (from everything I've read of the game and its community).
I'm hoping Paizo's partnership with Obsidian will yield an eventual offline RPG adventure more closely resembling the PnP rules (though I think the OGL limits what they're able to do in that area...I think). |
"...because despite the best advice of those who know what they are talking about, other people insist on doing the most massively stupid things."
-Galen, technomage |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2015 : 18:01:40
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quote:
Originally posted by ZeshinX
An MMO was a bad choice for Pathfinder RPG's first foray into video game land. Me thinks a better option would have been an offline adventure like a Baldur's Gate or Neverwinter Nights or Skyrim. It also doesn't help that it didn't much resemble the Pathfinder RPG in any significant way (from everything I've read of the game and its community).
I'm hoping Paizo's partnership with Obsidian will yield an eventual offline RPG adventure more closely resembling the PnP rules (though I think the OGL limits what they're able to do in that area...I think).
I had thought to check out their MMO once it fully launched, but haven't been keeping track of what they've been doing.
Seems really odd that they didn't have the MMO resemble Pathfinder. That would've been one of their strongest selling points, I would think: go explore the Pathfinder world in "real time" through an MMO. Did they not have cities, locations, or areas that were pulled from Golarion, I believe it's called?
Most people play MMOs for either the flavor of the world or the challenge/fun of interesting raid bosses.
Or was it the case that they did have Golarion locations, NPCs and such, but the questing/exploring was lackluster?
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Pathfinder Online Canceled?
