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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 00:36:05
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I'm not really sure if it's just me but whenever I am reading any of RAS's new books, I find the words he uses to be too......modern.
It really feels like when Drizzt is speaking, it's like speaking with someone on the bus instead of a drow elf from a magical medieval type of land.
I hope I'm making sense here because it's really difficult to explain.
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“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 02:15:20
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I'm just going to quote one word in reply to this thread.
"Pyrotechnics".
>_> |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
745 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 04:25:04
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| what......really? |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 04:38:26
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I agree, there's a lot of modern verbage in RAS novels.
Also, highly repetitive plots, extremely silly joke names, and most of his characters eventually become Mary Sues.
This most recent novel, for example, is about putting the orcs in their place, reclaiming yet another dwarven underhold from the drow, has a plethora of new characters all with derptastic names, and he's showering Cattie-Brie with unique special powers and god-given magical items.
As for the language, a big portion of the battle scenes, such as they are, have ballista "batteries" and "spotters" and describe things as you would a modern battlefield.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 08:31:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
It really feels like when Drizzt is speaking, it's like speaking with someone on the bus instead of a drow elf from a magical medieval type of land.
I hope I'm making sense here because it's really difficult to explain.
Start with making sense of "a magical medieval type of land". 
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
Also, highly repetitive plots, extremely silly joke names, and most of his characters eventually become Mary Sues.
Or in one word: he's a hack.
Can and does write some really good stuff, then passable stuff, but each writer's block is quite obviously met by hacking on at the level of lame fanfic.
"Warning: the world beyond this point is mostly cardboard. Try to walk lightly."
quote:
As for the language, a big portion of the battle scenes, such as they are, have ballista "batteries" and "spotters" and describe things as you would a modern battlefield.
As opposed to... what? Referring to such things by Latin names? That would not be out of place in Harry Potter, but...  Also, what were those names, again? |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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BenN
Senior Scribe
Japan
382 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 09:31:22
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For some reason, its mostly the dwarven characters who are afflicted with RAS' derptacular names.
Thibbledorf
Dagnabbit (brother of Yosemite Sam?)
etc
Some of the drow names are also pretty laughable:
Berg'inyon Baenre (brother of Stro'ganoff Baenre, presumably....)
Others are just lazy:
Jack the Gnome  Surprised we haven't met Bob the Elf yet..... |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 11:03:21
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quote:
Originally posted by BenN
Some of the drow names are also pretty laughable:
Berg'inyon Baenre (brother of Stro'ganoff Baenre, presumably....)
At least the direction is right - there's Andzrel Baenre... that was Baker's joke, presumably. And one from Byers - Greyanna Mizzrym. But since Salvatore was overseeing WotSQ, he gets at least splash damage in either case.
How about Matron Mother Malice? And her daughter Maya.
With this in mind, we're just lucky priests usually don't get to name spells and items after themselves. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 18:25:53
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| Batteries ans Spotters have been around since before medieval times (ancient Rome). |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 18:48:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
Batteries ans Spotters have been around since before medieval times (ancient Rome).
Yes, but people seem to be missing the point. Typically in the Realms they have been given Realmsian names.
Using English or French terms is of course fine, but it's more of a core thing. Salvatore was too busy to phone up Ed and ask, "hey, what are some Realmsy-sounding names for this stuff?"
It's just one of those little details that's been dropped in the move towards the generic.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 19:19:58
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| It's a good thing that the language has to stay relatively PG-13, otherwise we'd be seeing the decidedly un-Realmsian F-bomb dropped instead of the myriad of Realmsian curse words. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 21:07:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
Yes, but people seem to be missing the point.
Someone probably does. The question is, who?
quote:
Typically in the Realms they have been given Realmsian names.
Using English or French terms is of course fine, but it's more of a core thing. Salvatore was too busy to phone up Ed and ask, "hey, what are some Realmsy-sounding names for this stuff?"
Sometimes tweaking language is a good thing (when it makes sense), sometimes it's necessary (in contexts incompatible with "our" obvious derivation of the word), and sometimes (vast majority of cases with invented words just for the sake of exotics) it rots the text into ridiculous poseur pidgin, and adds nothing of value.
See also Ed's answer on this.
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People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 22:04:32
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by BenN
Some of the drow names are also pretty laughable:
Berg'inyon Baenre (brother of Stro'ganoff Baenre, presumably....)
At least the direction is right - there's Andzrel Baenre... that was Baker's joke, presumably. And one from Byers - Greyanna Mizzrym. But since Salvatore was overseeing WotSQ, he gets at least splash damage in either case.
How about Matron Mother Malice? And her daughter Maya.
With this in mind, we're just lucky priests usually don't get to name spells and items after themselves.
Maya didn't fit as a drow name for me, but I don't see your problem with the others. We don't have a whole lot of context in which to judge drow names, since Salvatore has written most books about drow. But Elaine Cunningham and Lisa Smedman have both written drow trilogies, and I didn't see any noticeably superior drow names in their books. |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 22:09:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
I agree, there's a lot of modern verbage in RAS novels.
Also, highly repetitive plots, extremely silly joke names, and most of his characters eventually become Mary Sues.
This most recent novel, for example, is about putting the orcs in their place, reclaiming yet another dwarven underhold from the drow, has a plethora of new characters all with derptastic names, and he's showering Cattie-Brie with unique special powers and god-given magical items.
As for the language, a big portion of the battle scenes, such as they are, have ballista "batteries" and "spotters" and describe things as you would a modern battlefield.
I agree about repetitive plots, but I like his plots, so that's never bothered me too much (although I could have done without bringing Crenshinibon back as the Ghost King).
However, there's no basis to say that most of his characters are Mary Sue's. Can you name the ones you consider Mary Sue's? We can get somewhere with a point by point discussion, I think. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 23:06:42
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quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
I'm just going to quote one word in reply to this thread.
"Pyrotechnics".
>_>
quote:
pyrotechnic (adj.) Look up pyrotechnic at Dictionary.com
1704, "of or pertaining to fire;" 1825, "of or pertaining to fireworks," from pyro- + Greek tekhnikos "made by art," from tekhne "art" (see techno-). Figurative use attested from 1847. Related: Pyrotechnical (1610s, from pyrotechny "use of gunpowder," 1570s).
Considering that the two sections of the word are Greek, thus more than a few centuries older than what we consider medieval (5th to 15th century), I think I can give it to him. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
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Duneth Despana
Learned Scribe
Belgium
273 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 23:58:47
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| this scroll already exists... at least once http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19905 |
« There is no overriding « epic » in the Realms, but rather a large number of stories, adventures, and encounters going on all the time. [...]. Each creative mind adds to the base, creating, defining, and making their contribution to the rich diversity of the Realms. [...]. But Ed built the stage upon which all the plays are presented. Thanks Ed. » -FR Comic no.1
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2015 : 00:38:33
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You know, this reminds me of a friend of mine that used to hound the online forums of a young Portuguese writer who was getting his first high-fantasy books out.
The author made the mistake of saying that he based his world on a certain real-life historic period and region, so my friend would go after him whenever something out of that historic region appeared in the novels. Like scimitar swords. Funny part was when he wouldn't even notice actual serious problems with his books, like when a character that was supposed to be inconscious from poison is suddenly awake and well in one of the middle chapters, or a character being in two locations at once (can't believe how the editor didn't catch something like that).
The whole thing seemed silly to me, just like how I never got why people get so upset by the names that RAS uses in his novels. Sounds more like people have a bone to pick and they'll cling on to anything. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2015 : 01:59:32
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| considering there used to be a spell called pyrotechnics in even the early editions of D&D..... I don't see a problem with the term being used. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2015 : 15:21:19
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
considering there used to be a spell called pyrotechnics in even the early editions of D&D..... I don't see a problem with the term being used.
Fair enough, I wasn't aware of this, but now that I am, it makes sense.  |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2015 : 16:02:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
You know, this reminds me of a friend of mine that used to hound the online forums of a young Portuguese writer who was getting his first high-fantasy books out.
The author made the mistake of saying that he based his world on a certain real-life historic period and region, so my friend would go after him whenever something out of that historic region appeared in the novels. Like scimitar swords. Funny part was when he wouldn't even notice actual serious problems with his books, like when a character that was supposed to be inconscious from poison is suddenly awake and well in one of the middle chapters, or a character being in two locations at once (can't believe how the editor didn't catch something like that).
The whole thing seemed silly to me, just like how I never got why people get so upset by the names that RAS uses in his novels. Sounds more like people have a bone to pick and they'll cling on to anything.
I'm sure your friend would appreciate you talking about him in such an unflattering way on a public forum. ;P
In all seriousness, your post is rather rude, on top of being passive-aggressive. I'm sorry for bluntly introducing negativity into the thread, but I hate passive-aggressive vagueposting. It's fine for you to disagree with the opinions expressed here and elsewhere regarding some of Salvatore's choices in his writing, and I'm sure that folks here for the most part would simply respect your difference in opinion as well as agree to disagreeing. People here seem mature and reasonable, so I doubt it'd be difficult for them to understand and accept that not everyone shares the same opinion. That's the whole purpose of discussion, after all.
However, flat-out implying that people who are unhappy with the things that they're unhappy with are just being petty is extremely unfair. Can you tell us whom you feel are behaving like your friend, who, assuming that your anecdote represents an accurate portrayal of the events, nitpicked trivial points while ignoring gaping plotholes? As far as I can see, there are a few jokes about funny names and my own word citation made out of ignorance, but the subject of this thread is about the word choice that Salvatore uses. We could launch into bigger issues here of course, but that'd go off topic.
Before you draw parallels between the reasonable people here and your, by your account, unreasonable friend, make sure that you have a solid foot to stand on. |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
745 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2015 : 16:05:17
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| we can all agree it's just a symptom of the larger problem. A word by word validation isn't necessary from the linguists. |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2015 : 17:36:36
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...Circling back to Shadowsoul's original post...
It's definitely not just you, Shadowsoul. This is something where we're definitely on the same page. I didn't even think that the early Driz'zt books seemed to maintain an authentic verbal aesthetic. But, fact is I'm not even sure if any of the Realms-Novels by any of the authors have gone out of their way to try and use "Realms" vocabulary...
Maybe that's a good question for discussion. Are there authors that consistently use "Realms" vocabulary? Or have created more "Realms" vocabulary through their novels?
I don't think getting hung up on a word-by-word critique, of an authors published works will lead to a productive discussion... So, I'll just say that there really are many, many "Realmsian" vocabulary terms that have been established. If characters use "Realms" vocabulary in their conversations, and authors add to the "Realms" dictionary of words, it would definitely add to a readers sense of immersion and satisfaction in the fictional world.
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To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
745 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2015 : 17:39:53
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| Um Ed does. So do others. |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2015 : 18:16:40
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quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
Before you draw parallels between the reasonable people here and your, by your account, unreasonable friend, make sure that you have a solid foot to stand on.
Actually, my point is that both my friend and people complaining here about RAS' choice of names are being unreasonable and petty.
I've seen these arguments pop several times already, and it always sounds more like people resent RAS's success so they'll pick on any silly thing. RAS has published over 30 books in the Realms, he's one of the setting's most profilic authors so the argument that the names he uses are "not realmsian" is borderline silly. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
Edited by - Tanthalas on 05 Sep 2015 18:23:01 |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2015 : 18:33:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
Before you draw parallels between the reasonable people here and your, by your account, unreasonable friend, make sure that you have a solid foot to stand on.
Actually, my point is that both my friend and people complaining here about RAS' choice of names are being unreasonable and petty.
I've seen these arguments pop several times already, and it always sounds more like people resent RAS's success so they'll pick on any silly thing. RAS has published over 30 books in the Realms, he's one of the setting's most profilic authors so the argument that the names he uses are "not realmsian" is borderline silly.
Ah, okay. So RAS is above criticism. And if people do dare to send some his way, they get attacked for being "unreasonable" and "petty" and even silly and jealous.
Super glad you could clear that up.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2015 : 18:41:49
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I've never had problems with the modern lingo, because I agree with what Ashe Ravenheart said above (and so many folks have trouble wrapping their minds around). The stories are being told to US; would you prefer RAS write in Thorass? That might be 'cute', but I don't think he'd sell too many books like that.
His names, however, should NOT be using modern English or any other real-world language for that matter. Names do not change upon translation, and he wants to name someone 'Cookpot Lampshadehead' thats fine... but translate it into those words in their own language. It makes absolutely no sense that they would have a name in an Earth language.
That goes for locales as well... I'm looking at YOU, Baffenberg.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Sep 2015 18:43:54 |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2015 : 19:27:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I've never had problems with the modern lingo, because I agree with what Ashe Ravenheart said above (and so many folks have trouble wrapping their minds around).
"Trouble wrapping their minds around"? What an unfriendly, and uncivil statement to make.
What exactly is so wrong with people just sharing an opinion? It's a fairly MILD critical opinion at that, and obviously not one that has hindered any of his sales.
Also, isn't it rather obvious that authors write for modern audiences? Is there any other audience that they could write for? I'm part of that modern audience (after all, I'm not a centuries old vampire or immortal from a previous age), and I just think it'd be nice to actually see a little more immersion from RAS - because I enjoy the trend that Ed came up with, which is throwing in a few Realmsian words every now and then.
Otherwise it's core and generic. Which is fine, it's just different.
How about trying to see this not as a mean-spirited personal attack of RAS but instead as "I like this quality in Ed's writing, I wish other authors did it also."
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2015 : 20:37:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
Actually, my point is that both my friend and people complaining here about RAS' choice of names are being unreasonable and petty.
I've seen these arguments pop several times already, and it always sounds more like people resent RAS's success so they'll pick on any silly thing. RAS has published over 30 books in the Realms, he's one of the setting's most profilic authors so the argument that the names he uses are "not realmsian" is borderline silly.
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2015 : 20:46:57
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| For me, whenever I read the monologues at the beginning of each chapter it sounds like Drizzt was educated at a university. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Caladan Brood
Senior Scribe
Norway
410 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2015 : 20:52:47
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I find R.A. Salvatore to be one of the worst writers I've read. I have not managed to finish ONE book he's written. Fortunately I discovered I could get the gist of his tales about Drizzt by reading comics :)
Because, unlike a lot of people (apparently), I *do* think Drizzt is an interesting character.
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Edited by - Caladan Brood on 05 Sep 2015 20:53:45 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2015 : 21:54:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I've never had problems with the modern lingo, because I agree with what Ashe Ravenheart said above (and so many folks have trouble wrapping their minds around).
"Trouble wrapping their minds around"? What an unfriendly, and uncivil statement to make.
I'm from New York - that IS a New Yorker being pleasant-as-pie. 
It takes us a LOT of self-control not to rage 24/7... i think Bruce banner must have been a NYer.
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
What exactly is so wrong with people just sharing an opinion? It's a fairly MILD critical opinion at that, and obviously not one that has hindered any of his sales.
There is nothing wrong with it. Maybe I've been here too long (please tell me if that is the case), because I've seen this and very similar questions come up time-and-again. You should have been here when they used the letter 'K' for Karsus' emblem in some story.
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
Also, isn't it rather obvious that authors write for modern audiences? Is there any other audience that they could write for? I'm part of that modern audience (after all, I'm not a centuries old vampire or immortal from a previous age), and I just think it'd be nice to actually see a little more immersion from RAS - because I enjoy the trend that Ed came up with, which is throwing in a few Realmsian words every now and then.
I absolutely love that. I hope you don't think I am a 'RAS fanboi'. Quite the opposite, really. I am highly critical of him (and his constant twisting of canon).
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
How about trying to see this not as a mean-spirited personal attack of RAS but instead as "I like this quality in Ed's writing, I wish other authors did it also."
Wow... you are either the most tense person I've never met, or you just enjoy picking fights. As I said above, I'm from NY... we invented Trolls*. We live our lives that way. We also have extremely thick skins. You couldn't survive here without those things.
But enough about me...
I enjoy Ed's writing. I enjoy Salvatore's writing. I enjoy BOTH for very different reasons. BOTH have their strong points and their weak points, but thats okay, because I am a REALMS fan first and foremost, and I read what they write for The Realms. I've only very recently read something by Ed that wasn't FR, and I have NEVER read anything non-FR by RAS. I am not a fan of authors, I am a fan of settings.
I will even go outside my 'genre comfort zone' for a great setting, authors be damned.
There is only one FR author I enjoyed enough to try a work by him in another setting, and that was Paul Kemp. I enjoyed the book, but didn't bother with the second, because I was looking for more about the setting itself, which I wasn't getting. That doesn't take from the novel itself (The Hammer & The Blade) - it was very good - it just wasn't what I look for when I read.
Now, if you want to read a truly perfect novel, you'll just have to wait until I write one. 
Cheers
*Not the Scandinavian kind, the modern kind. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Sep 2015 18:03:52 |
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Not really sure if it's just me.
