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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Oct 2015 : 16:01:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Veritas
Well, there is always the old rub suggesting Selune has been heavily involved the entire time. Her manipulations are just not easily detectable by mortals (and so far have been concealed from readers). If Shar was that successful, imagine how bad it would have been had Selune not been interfering with her plans off-screen.
Of course I'm just making that all up because there is little if any suggestion in the published Realms that I am aware of that had Selune intervened at all.
Still, that would probably be a better example of divine intervention, one whose effects are felt without mortals even being aware of it at all. Selune is extremely old. Perhaps Larloch unknowingly came to the conclusion that this was his time to intervene because of some machination of Selune. He was a chosen of Mystryl, a deity who was ostensibly a daughter to Selune. If you believe Mystryl's creation myth.
Good point, but according to her portfolio, Shar should have been acting behind the scenes as well. It's not as if WOTC has ever been afraid to have the gods act openly and boldly. Selune didn't even do anything to stop those pedophile rapist priests of hers in Road of the Patriarch, and they had been operating openly in Calimport for decades. |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1265 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2015 : 16:23:07
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| It seems like Selune was heavily used by one main Realms guru, Jeff Grubb. When his role declined with the Realms (SADLY), so did Selune. It is really odd that Shar and Selune are huge rivals, but Selune has done nothing to stop Shar's machinations for the last earth decade and a bit. Although, Shar didn't appear much in 1st or 2nd edition when Selune featured more heavily. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2015 : 20:30:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
It seems like Selune was heavily used by one main Realms guru, Jeff Grubb. When his role declined with the Realms (SADLY), so did Selune. It is really odd that Shar and Selune are huge rivals, but Selune has done nothing to stop Shar's machinations for the last earth decade and a bit. Although, Shar didn't appear much in 1st or 2nd edition when Selune featured more heavily.
Someone decided that everything related "shadow" was kewl, so they had to play that up -- even though Mask is the one with the Shadow portfolio. I think it was because they decided to bring back Shade, and Shade was associated with Shar, that they decided to make her the source of All That Is Evil In the Realms.
And of course there was already the love affair with Mystra and her Chosen, so suddenly it was all about Mystra and Shar, and pretty much all other deities (not just Selūne) were shoved off to one side. |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2015 : 20:56:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
It seems like Selune was heavily used by one main Realms guru, Jeff Grubb. When his role declined with the Realms (SADLY), so did Selune. It is really odd that Shar and Selune are huge rivals, but Selune has done nothing to stop Shar's machinations for the last earth decade and a bit. Although, Shar didn't appear much in 1st or 2nd edition when Selune featured more heavily.
Someone decided that everything related "shadow" was kewl, so they had to play that up -- even though Mask is the one with the Shadow portfolio. I think it was because they decided to bring back Shade, and Shade was associated with Shar, that they decided to make her the source of All That Is Evil In the Realms.
And of course there was already the love affair with Mystra and her Chosen, so suddenly it was all about Mystra and Shar, and pretty much all other deities (not just Selūne) were shoved off to one side.
I'm just particularly touchy about Selune, but you're correct. I would say that there are a few other gods who still managed to get a lot of attention, even with Mystra and Shar hogging the screentime: Lolth and Lathander are good about finding their way into everything, even without logical reason sometimes (like Lolth attempting to take over the Weave??). Cyric was one of the driving forces behind the Spellplague and got some feature time in a Sundering novel. Mask has always had a lot of novel features, even before the Erevis Cale series (especially when you consider that he's never been a Greater Deity). But yeah, it's a relative handful of gods that get all the press.
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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2015 : 21:54:55
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Frankly, what irritates me most about both Myth Drannor and Shade and many other matters is the way things are done. I can live and have fun with a ruined or reclaimed Myth Drannor, but the sudden reclamation, the sudden destruction, the sudden appearance of Shade and their infinite power that ridiculed everyone they involved themselves with... and then the rather cheap removal again.
Why not make things just stay some way or another for some time, with slow, sensible changes, instead of just blowing up things left and right?
All this does for me is make me throw new Realms events away. Without looking at them for the largest part, these days. Given how much I love the setting, how long I have and still am playing in it...
But the entire world turned upside down every few moments with random timejumps, poor excuses for in-setting resets and far too many holes left precisely due to those timejumps and lack of information? I can't use that. Not for P&P, and not for our NWN server, either. Bleeding shame, really.
Saddest thing? I've seen multiple suggestions in this thread on how they could've done better, by a lot, such as George's idea about crashing Thultanthar on arrival. |
silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2015 : 00:03:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
One of the 3E books teased us with the possibility of Selunarra returning to oppose Shade... I really liked the idea -- not from the perspective of another return, but to provide an effective counterbalance against Shade and another power group to mix things up.
I hated the whole idea of Selunarra. That's the most silly kind of mirroring balancing of the most silly kind. |
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lsls
Acolyte
34 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2015 : 04:58:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Heh, WotC doesn't really seem to like goddesses of the moon.
She did get some air time back in the days of 2E. She featured prominently in the DC/TSR comics, and fought Shar in them, during the ToT -- Shar actually came to Waterdeep and impersonated Selune. At the conclusion of the ToT, she went back to doing the divine gig, and left the bar her avatar had tended to one of her friends, the later Moonstar, Lord of Waterdeep, and Blackstaff Kyriani Agrivar.
Well, that kind of proves my point, since the last time Selune got some attention was when D&D/FR were under TSR.
Mistress of the Night described the story that Selune's followers and a shade cleric of Shar fight for an artifact called The Leaves of One Night. The novel also released some information about Selune such as new moon pact and new moon heresy. |
Edited by - lsls on 07 Oct 2015 05:05:15 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2015 : 05:14:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
I hated the whole idea of Selunarra. That's the most silly kind of mirroring balancing of the most silly kind.
Well... it is a copycat, but that's how the whole arms race thing works anyway.
So at least it's a copycat that makes sense, unlike "demonweave" and so on. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Veritas
Learned Scribe
209 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2015 : 04:04:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
MasterMustard, usually in cases like that, if any part of the ritual is interrupted or altered, the whole ritual is null and void. So I was under the impression that he didn't retain any of that power. Here's what we know for sure:
SPOILERS
SPOILERS
SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
1) Elminster notes in the next book (Spellstorm) that Larloch is still alive, but he is greatly diminished and is recovering. I forget exactly what the Srinshee hit him with, but she messed him up bad.
2) Spellstorm deals (in part) with a plot by Larloch's servitor liches, who are now clearly free. So we know that his previously unassailable mental link, through which he dominated his 60+ servitor liches, is now broken.
3) Srinshee sacrifices herself for no good reason at the end of The Herald.
4) Elminster admits in the Spellstorm novel that he would have lost a spell duel to Telamont, which is why he sneak attacked him through the Weave.
5) Manshoon, who had recently defeated Elminster (in El's diminished 4e state), was depowered in Spellstorm. Manshoon had a spark of Mystra's divinity in him that Mystra commanded Elminster to remove.
6) Shaan the Serpent Queen (yes, the one who once casually disintegrated an island) was killed beyond any hope of resurrection in the Spellstorm novel.
7) CONCLUSION: Three mages are revealed to be more powerful than Elminster in The Herald: Larloch, Srinshee, and Telamont. At the end of the novel, Telamont and Srinshee are dead, and Larloch is greatly diminished in power.
8) CONCLUSION: In Spellstorm, 2 mages are on Elminster's approximate level: Manshoon and Shaan the Serpent Queen. At the end of the novel, Manshoon is greatly diminished in power and Shaan the Serpent Queen is dead.
9) P.S.: SHAR herself also mentions in The Herald that with the SINGLE EXCEPTION of Szass Tam conquering Thay, Elminster has thwarted every major plot in the last 400 YEARS. So any mage capable of standing up to Elminster is dead or sidelined, and the goddess of secrets, who has been duping everybody throughout 3E and 4E, is at a loss for how to stop Elminster from foiling her plans. Should Iolaum take center stage in the next novel so Elminster can show us that elder brain Netherese liches are mere target practice for his spells?
When you put your list that way, it looks like El has been slowly working his way through the hit list. He only makes it look like coincidence and happenstance. Is he even really working for Mystra? :D
In any event, there can be other high powered Manshoons still running around and considering how Shaan has been touted as a great power of the Realms, she probably has a few duplicates of herself out there ready to go as well. Just about any of the characters who were killed could be contrived to have cheated death in some way.
As for Larloch's death and depowerment, well he tricked Elminster before. He might not be in ideal circumstances for the moment but when he gets back, he might be in tip-top shape.
I hope this wasn't some editorial mandate to depower significant Realms mages so they can fall within 5e 20 level rubric where gods are only CR 30ish. It seems like they'll avoid statting up Elminster for this edition but I'd dearly love to see their take on him in the current rules.
I really want to see Ioulaum (visibly) get involved in anything anywhere. That would be an interesting character to have a 10 minute conversation with, perhaps even a (m)eating of the minds.... |
Edited by - Veritas on 08 Oct 2015 04:05:55 |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2015 : 08:07:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Veritas
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
MasterMustard, usually in cases like that, if any part of the ritual is interrupted or altered, the whole ritual is null and void. So I was under the impression that he didn't retain any of that power. Here's what we know for sure:
SPOILERS
SPOILERS
SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
1) Elminster notes in the next book (Spellstorm) that Larloch is still alive, but he is greatly diminished and is recovering. I forget exactly what the Srinshee hit him with, but she messed him up bad.
2) Spellstorm deals (in part) with a plot by Larloch's servitor liches, who are now clearly free. So we know that his previously unassailable mental link, through which he dominated his 60+ servitor liches, is now broken.
3) Srinshee sacrifices herself for no good reason at the end of The Herald.
4) Elminster admits in the Spellstorm novel that he would have lost a spell duel to Telamont, which is why he sneak attacked him through the Weave.
5) Manshoon, who had recently defeated Elminster (in El's diminished 4e state), was depowered in Spellstorm. Manshoon had a spark of Mystra's divinity in him that Mystra commanded Elminster to remove.
6) Shaan the Serpent Queen (yes, the one who once casually disintegrated an island) was killed beyond any hope of resurrection in the Spellstorm novel.
7) CONCLUSION: Three mages are revealed to be more powerful than Elminster in The Herald: Larloch, Srinshee, and Telamont. At the end of the novel, Telamont and Srinshee are dead, and Larloch is greatly diminished in power.
8) CONCLUSION: In Spellstorm, 2 mages are on Elminster's approximate level: Manshoon and Shaan the Serpent Queen. At the end of the novel, Manshoon is greatly diminished in power and Shaan the Serpent Queen is dead.
9) P.S.: SHAR herself also mentions in The Herald that with the SINGLE EXCEPTION of Szass Tam conquering Thay, Elminster has thwarted every major plot in the last 400 YEARS. So any mage capable of standing up to Elminster is dead or sidelined, and the goddess of secrets, who has been duping everybody throughout 3E and 4E, is at a loss for how to stop Elminster from foiling her plans. Should Iolaum take center stage in the next novel so Elminster can show us that elder brain Netherese liches are mere target practice for his spells?
When you put your list that way, it looks like El has been slowly working his way through the hit list. He only makes it look like coincidence and happenstance. Is he even really working for Mystra? :D
In any event, there can be other high powered Manshoons still running around and considering how Shaan has been touted as a great power of the Realms, she probably has a few duplicates of herself out there ready to go as well. Just about any of the characters who were killed could be contrived to have cheated death in some way.
As for Larloch's death and depowerment, well he tricked Elminster before. He might not be in ideal circumstances for the moment but when he gets back, he might be in tip-top shape.
I hope this wasn't some editorial mandate to depower significant Realms mages so they can fall within 5e 20 level rubric where gods are only CR 30ish. It seems like they'll avoid statting up Elminster for this edition but I'd dearly love to see their take on him in the current rules.
I really want to see Ioulaum (visibly) get involved in anything anywhere. That would be an interesting character to have a 10 minute conversation with, perhaps even a (m)eating of the minds....
I wouldn't expect to see Shaan back. She was never a character focused on in sourcebooks or novels, so there won't be any outcry over her death. And I think it's significant that she was killed in that mansion where magic wasn't working. She probably had some type of resurrection or other contingency magic that was suppressed.
I didn't understand the purpose of bringing Shaan into a novel just to kill her off. Although she at least got an excellent portrayal. Larloch gets brought in to talk to himself, twirl his moustache, and then get blasted into oblivion while he's in the middle of a cheesy villain monologue. I mean, Larloch was a character we've all waited to read about for years. We finally get him in a novel, and the appearance is lackluster. Ed could have used a perpetual loser like Manshoon to fail miserably at taking over the Weave. I expected Larloch to be a more difficult opponent. I'm actually afraid of Iolaum being novelized, particularly if Elminster is in the book. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2015 : 18:29:22
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
The big question is what makes people think selunarra will be good.
The fact that it was taken to the divine realm of a good-aligned goddess, stayed there since then, and intermarried with the populace of that divine realm, is a pretty good indicator it will be good.
And given all that, I see no reason to assume they'd be xenophobic. Shade, having been in a hostile place and subject to frequent attacks, would be far more likely to be xenophobic. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 08 Oct 2015 18:30:44 |
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BrianDavion
Seeker
71 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2016 : 23:54:54
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| I always thought The Empire of Shade was a poor joke. "Hi, we're followers of the goddess of Nihlism, let's build an empire! |
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Lamora
Seeker
USA
81 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2016 : 02:39:39
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Another interesting post from Ed recently was that there was supposed to be around 30 fallen cities of Netheril in 5E. That would allow the Shade Empire to remain a strong power. I haven't seen anything in canon (besides the fallen city in Aunarach from the Drizzt stories), but Ed's words really show that the power of Shade can return to a decent level. I don't know how other books will play that though since I always thought there were only 2 flying cities of Shade which both crashed during the Sundering.
To actually answer the OP, I always thought that 5-10k elves should easily be able to clear out Myth Drannor pretty quickly. Plus they had 100 years to do so. I didn't really understand where all the 'monsters' are coming from in 5E Myth Drannor. I am a big fan of the Reclamation of Myth Drannor series, so I hated how WotC tried to destroy the city. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2016 : 03:14:26
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| I was a fan of Reclaimed Myth Drannor, too, so I was also upset, but, at least according to Ed, not *all* of the city was destroyed. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2016 : 03:38:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Lamora
I haven't seen anything in canon (besides the fallen city in Aunarach from the Drizzt stories)
What Ed says is indeed canon/official (as a part of his contract), unless WotC overwrites it. And WotC seems to be supporting it, given the extra enclave that showed up.
I agree about Myth Drannor. They could have easily made both those who liked the ruins, and those who liked the city, happy by being a bit more subtle, but I've already commented on that in this thread (although it is canon that parts of the city has survived). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2016 : 04:47:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Lamora
I haven't seen anything in canon (besides the fallen city in Aunarach from the Drizzt stories)
What Ed says is indeed canon/official (as a part of his contract), unless WotC overwrites it. And WotC seems to be supporting it, given the extra enclave that showed up.
WotC can not over right the contract, they purchased the contract when they purchased TSR.
There is only the possibility that the renegotiated the contract with Ed. There has been no indication of that event occurring. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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shades of eternity
Learned Scribe
288 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2016 : 17:43:48
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Honestly, I've been using the power vacuum of Anauroch and the reduction of power of both the netheril and the pherenium to create a wild west feel as adventurers pile into the area seeking their fortune.
and part of me thinks, off camera, lord Fzoul, the Avatar of Bane, showed up to let them know his dissatisfaction. <eg>. |
check out my post-post apocalyptic world at www.drevrpg.com |
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BrianDavion
Seeker
71 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2016 : 21:21:25
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| yeah it seems to me that there's a HUGE power vacuum in the realms right now, with the destruction of Shade, as well as the earlier destruction of Zhentil Keep and the Zents being less a public power player then they used to be |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2016 : 22:37:00
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quote:
Originally posted by BrianDavion
yeah it seems to me that there's a HUGE power vacuum in the realms right now, with the destruction of Shade, as well as the earlier destruction of Zhentil Keep and the Zents being less a public power player then they used to be
True.. but atleast an individual level, there will be powerful Mages ready to fill the void.
Szass tam for Larloch
Araevin Teshurr for Khelben Blackstaff
Catti-brie for the Simbul
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Lamora
Seeker
USA
81 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2016 : 23:13:21
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| I never understood why the sands reclaimed Aunaroch when the Shades caused it to bloom and be fruitful? Wouldn't the land be much better off if it wasn't desert? I understand from Salvatore's books that the Shades subjugated the desert people, but I never understood why anyone would want the desert to come back. Was there any reason why the Shade's magic disappeared besides 'hand wave' Sundering? |
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shades of eternity
Learned Scribe
288 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2016 : 23:18:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Lamora
I never understood why the sands reclaimed Aunaroch when the Shades caused it to bloom and be fruitful? Wouldn't the land be much better off if it wasn't desert? I understand from Salvatore's books that the Shades subjugated the desert people, but I never understood why anyone would want the desert to come back. Was there any reason why the Shade's magic disappeared besides 'hand wave' Sundering?
yeah, the main reason for it (the pherenium) have been hunted to near extinction at this point, so I'd imagine it's less of a desert then it used to be. |
check out my post-post apocalyptic world at www.drevrpg.com |
Edited by - shades of eternity on 10 Jun 2016 23:22:06 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2016 : 04:47:31
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From what I recall, in order to replenish the Anauroch the shades had to melt ice caps in the north with blankets of shadow-material. This caused severe storms, unprecedented weather patterns which negatively affected nations like Cormyr with heavy flooding, and overall bad for pepole in the Western Heartlands. People, until then, have been coexisting with the desert just fine so that was one of the reasons for stopping the Shades.
If I remember correctly this was detailed in the Return of the Archwizards trilogy. |
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Lamora
Seeker
USA
81 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2016 : 15:49:28
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| Yeah but after the 100 year timeskip, Aunaroch (or at least the portion the Shades controlled) was supposed to be fertile land. Then this fertile land just seems to disappear when the Sundering hits for... reasons. Any info on that? |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2016 : 15:56:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Lamora
Yeah but after the 100 year timeskip, Aunaroch (or at least the portion the Shades controlled) was supposed to be fertile land. Then this fertile land just seems to disappear when the Sundering hits for... reasons. Any info on that?
Yeah, I think that it was result of WotC's policy of ''everything that happened between the end of 3e and the end of 4e has been reverted''. The Sword Coast Guide doesn't provide any explanation, IIRC. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 11 Jun 2016 15:56:36 |
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BrianDavion
Seeker
71 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2016 : 02:05:00
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| I dunno there's been some things kept, but yeah by and large they seem to be winding back all the changes. A bit of an over correction, but I suppose they wanna get back all the 2nd and third edition fans they lost. |
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Austin the Archmage
Seeker
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2016 : 19:56:09
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by BrianDavion
yeah it seems to me that there's a HUGE power vacuum in the realms right now, with the destruction of Shade, as well as the earlier destruction of Zhentil Keep and the Zents being less a public power player then they used to be
True.. but atleast an individual level, there will be powerful Mages ready to fill the void.
Szass tam for Larloch
Araevin Teshurr for Khelben Blackstaff
Catti-brie for the Simbul
Is Aumvor still around? I'm unclear as to whether he did anything plotwise, or if he just exists as a potential challenge to epic level players? |
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Was destroying Shade & Myth Drannor necessary?
