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Mirtek
Senior Scribe

595 Posts

Posted - 08 Sep 2015 :  10:44:00  Show Profile Send Mirtek a Private Message  Reply with Quote
According to Magic of Faerun the deities (and planes in General) do not use the weave.

Thus Mystra should not have been able to deny magic to Cyric.

However Cyric started to overcame the ban in the novel, since when he later fought Mystra in Pandemonium he performed feats that were clearly magical by drawing directly from the plane itself.

Thus others theorized that Cyric was only affected by Mystra's ban because as a young deity he did not know yet that he could simply circumvent it and just started to realize it later

Edited by - Mirtek on 08 Sep 2015 10:45:02
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe

595 Posts

Posted - 08 Sep 2015 :  11:01:00  Show Profile Send Mirtek a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer

quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas

[
Yes, the shadovar were overused, but at least their victories made them a credible threat. Now they're just a joke like all the loser evil factions scattered arund the Realms.

Can you point to anything in the lore that shows this to be true?

I mean, Shade just fell, so let's see what the survivors do before we write them off.

The survivors we saw in spellstorm were a joke.

And it makes sense as the survivors were lesser arcanists not in shade when it crashed down.

Just before the crash the competent arcanist all gathered in shade to assisst the most high in bis Ritual.

Larloch mentally assaulted and incapacitated the lot of them in one grand stroke and thus they all dies when shade crashed shortly thereafter as they were not yet revovered and able to escape.

Aside Form a few competent arcanists that could not make it to shade in time, the survivors are those so useless the most high didn't bother to have them add to bis ritual
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 08 Sep 2015 :  13:03:39  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek

According to Magic of Faerun the deities (and planes in General) do not use the weave.

Thus Mystra should not have been able to deny magic to Cyric.

However Cyric started to overcame the ban in the novel, since when he later fought Mystra in Pandemonium he performed feats that were clearly magical by drawing directly from the plane itself.

Thus others theorized that Cyric was only affected by Mystra's ban because as a young deity he did not know yet that he could simply circumvent it and just started to realize it later.
This is a simplified version of how I described it working a LONG time ago, myself.

A deity could use the Weave to deliver spells. If we picture the Weave being like a huge (magical) computer-interface, then divine magic could be an App designed to run on it, sort of how Credit cards were piggy-backed onto the internet later on. They have their own system, but the Weave could just make things 'easier' (for the lazy, or newb, god). Its like a corporate credit card in that way - he throws some 'cash' (power) at it, and then individuals can use an ATM (prayers) to download what they need.

The normal, DIVINE system is more hands-on, and requires the deities attention. In fact, Ao mandated that this be so after the ToT (it probably took awhile for the ones using the Weave to make the switch). Many gods - especially evil ones - wouldn't have bothered with the weave system in the first place, because just like the 'surcharge' you get when you use credit/cash cards, Mystra siphoned-off a wee bit of that energy for herself (she automatically get power from anything/anyone using the weave - its part of her portfolio). Since many evil deities wind-up at odds with her, they wouldn't want to help empower her in that fashion.

Cyric - as you've said - was a newb, and thought that was the only way it worked. It took him awhile to figure out there was a more direct way for him to do things. Just like when you get good with computers, and start to tweak your own settings (and stop using automatic updates!) and download apps that work better then the stuff that comes with windows.

So yeah... the Weave is magical 'Windows', and Cyric found the Linux community (mac users are a separate thing - they're using the Shadow-Weave).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 08 Sep 2015 13:04:31
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 08 Sep 2015 :  13:42:45  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It was my understanding that deities needed to use the Weave to act on Toril. On the outer planes and in their domains, their spells and energy are powered by faith and ideas (like basically anything on the outer planes), but does that work on Toril?

As for the alternative magic, how exactly is it powered? The Weave reflects the energy of the natural processes in the world (Ed said this in his 2012 thread, can't find the quote tho) but what about the rest? If the Weave functions as said above, then it means that its energy must come from anything that happens or exists on Toril. Even if a kind of spellcasting used -say- the ''energy of spirits'', it would be included in the Weave anyway. If this was true, then alternative magic would not be really alternative, just different ways to ''access'' the Weave (perhaps in the same way we could generate the heat used to power some machines through many processes).

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe

Ireland
705 Posts

Posted - 08 Sep 2015 :  15:22:49  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Lads, this is why consistency is very important.

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*.
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader

USA
2717 Posts

Posted - 08 Sep 2015 :  16:32:46  Show Profile Send Jeremy Grenemyer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek


Aside from a few competent arcanists that could not make it to Shade in time, the survivors are those so useless the Most High didn't bother to have them add to his ritual

You must have been reading a different book than me.

Regardless, let's see what the survivors--all of the survivors--do first before we write them off.

Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver).
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 08 Sep 2015 :  16:51:28  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Yeah good point. I'm happy the gods are back, even if it was Ao snapping his fingers. I guess they (Wizards)was ttrying to get everything to a certain point so they could move on with their plans. Still, there comes a point when there is too much cheap explanations/events.



We've reached that point a long time ago. But yes, I'm happy to see the gods, nations, organizations being back. It's just that I'd like something more to explain all of that...

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe

489 Posts

Posted - 08 Sep 2015 :  17:04:58  Show Profile Send Lilianviaten a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer

quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek


Aside from a few competent arcanists that could not make it to Shade in time, the survivors are those so useless the Most High didn't bother to have them add to his ritual

You must have been reading a different book than me.

Regardless, let's see what the survivors--all of the survivors--do first before we write them off.




Cmon man, all the princes are dead, along with all of the most powerful arcanists. I'm sure there are other powerful spellcasters who survived here and there. There are always some. But the ones left are not anywhere near the level of the ones who were killed. And all the most competent battle commanders (like Herzgo Alegni from the RAS Neverwinter books) were on the front lines fighting in Cormyr or Myth Drannor.

The power left may be sufficient to form a mercenary group or a criminal syndicate like the Zhentarim, but it will still take a long time to find and consolidate them all under new leadership. And no matter how talented those 2 annoying twins are at seduction, they don't have anywhere near the powerful presence of Telamont to draw all the former Netherese to them.

Plus, the new severely weakened Netheril has all the same powerful enemies that they made when they were untouchable (Harpers, Zhents, church of Cyric, Szass Tam, Cormyr, Chosen of Mystra, church of Lathander, church of Selune if WOTC ever remembers that she is Shar's archnemesis). They have all these enemies, plus they are universally despised. Anyone found with allegiance to Netheril or to Shar will be persecuted in any civilized lands. They have no power, a ton of enemies, a scattered band of potential allies, and no refuge.

Netheril is toast, and I'm cool with that. They had an awesome run, and Telamont accomplished more than any villain in FR that I've ever seen. It's time for new threats to Faerun.
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe

489 Posts

Posted - 08 Sep 2015 :  17:15:38  Show Profile Send Lilianviaten a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As an aside, does anyone have the timeline of the war clear? The Sundering books kept making the situation sound increasingly dire in Cormyr. By book 5, the Shades seem to have completely beaten Cormyr down and are ready to finish it off. Yet in book 6, the Shades seem to divert all of their attention from Cormyr to attack Myth Drannor.

Of course, the Sundering books were vague on details, so it's possible that there is a good explanation for that. It just struck me as a ridiculous blunder, especially given that Shade provoked the war with Cormyr. If their ultimate goal was snatching the Weave for Shar, why not attack Myth Drannor first? Once she had the Weave, Cormyr would have fallen anyway. I just don't see the logic in having a 100 year cold war with Cormyr, then finally attacking and gaining the upper hand, only to let up on them.

I enjoy Cormyr immensely as a setting, but I would rather only read about one upsmanship games among the nobility. Reading about threats to Cormyr as a whole is pointless, because it's one of the FR setting's untouchable places (along with Waterdeep and Menzoberranzan). Nothing can take these places down: ancient dragons, demon lords, divine avatars, spellplagues, nothing. Which is cool, but I'd rather have small stories set within those areas.
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader

USA
2717 Posts

Posted - 08 Sep 2015 :  18:33:24  Show Profile Send Jeremy Grenemyer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten

Cmon man, all the princes are dead, along with all of the most powerful arcanists.

Not sure where you draw the line for "most powerful arcanists." Me? I'm not convinced they're all dead.

But I also think it doesn't matter. You don't need to be one of the most powerful arcanists, or even a passable one, to be dangerous. Nor to begin the process of building things back up the way you want them to be, now that the Most High has fallen.

I like your summary of the situation the survivors face. I'll add that I think a lot of them don't want to join back up with others of their kind.

Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver).
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1477 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2015 :  00:28:10  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The most sensible thing to do would be Ao splitting the power of the Weave between Velsharoon, Mystra and Savras, so Mystra doesn't nuke herself or something. Hell, you could even add in the uneasy alliance between the Arcane Triad; Savras has bitter memories of his imprisonment (that Mystra 1 sanctioned), Velsharoon is a Red Wizard who has to put aside his own ambitions and deal with a goddess he despises while trying to build a faith, and Mystra has to deal with her own memories and prejudices as a mortal conflicting with Mystra 1's memories.

Together they fight crime.

Or something.

Meanwhile, the villain problem gets worse. You think Mr. Greenwood slapping Telamont and Larloch with villain balls was bad? Look at poor Manshoon.
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe

Portugal
508 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2015 :  16:32:11  Show Profile Send Tanthalas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer

quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek


Aside from a few competent arcanists that could not make it to Shade in time, the survivors are those so useless the Most High didn't bother to have them add to his ritual

You must have been reading a different book than me.

Regardless, let's see what the survivors--all of the survivors--do first before we write them off.



And how long do we have to wait until we can say that they're a joke? We already know that both of their strongholds are gone and that the majority of their more powerful arcanists went down with the city. Spellstorm certainly didn't give a good impression of them (though of course villains in Ed's books tend to be incompetent).

Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage".
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader

USA
2717 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2015 :  18:08:52  Show Profile Send Jeremy Grenemyer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas

And how long do we have to wait until we can say that they're a joke?

I don't know. Are you in a rush to be somewhere?

Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver).
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JohnLynch
Learned Scribe

Australia
243 Posts

Posted - 22 Sep 2015 :  03:43:52  Show Profile Send JohnLynch a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul

the bad thing is that what happens in the novels affects future products and stuff like this just rubs me the wrong way.

That's why I adventure like it's 1357!

DM of the Realms: A blog for my Forgotten Realms adventures.

Edited by - JohnLynch on 22 Sep 2015 03:44:56
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Austin the Archmage
Seeker

USA
57 Posts

Posted - 04 Oct 2015 :  19:54:37  Show Profile Send Austin the Archmage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer

quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas

And how long do we have to wait until we can say that they're a joke?

I don't know. Are you in a rush to be somewhere?



It's a fair question. How long should people wait before they're allowed to decide if a certain element is working? It's not right to tell people to wait and see, and then act like they should just wait the plot out indefinitely. It's like asking someone to check out a TV show, then when they tell you they don't like, advise them to just keep watching more episodes.
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe

USA
428 Posts

Posted - 05 Oct 2015 :  00:54:19  Show Profile Send combatmedic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

You guys are past 1357 DR?





Roooocckk onnnn!

My first thought was, "Isn't Myth Drannor already in ruins?"


YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :)
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader

USA
2717 Posts

Posted - 05 Oct 2015 :  02:31:01  Show Profile Send Jeremy Grenemyer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Austin the Archmage

It's a fair question.
Not particularly, because it wasn't really a question as it was posed. Rather a statement meant to cement the idea that "Shade is now a joke" and to cut off further discussion.

quote:
Originally posted by Austin the Archmage

How long should people wait before they're allowed to decide if a certain element is working?
Who among us has the power to allow people to do or not do anything? I certainly don't.

quote:
Originally posted by Austin the Archmage

It's not right to tell people to wait and see, and then act like they should just wait the plot out indefinitely.
Who are you talking about here? I hope it's not me, because I said, "Wait and see," not "Wait forever until you die and hope your ancestors figure out how to get word to you in the afterlife to tell you how the plot turned out."

quote:
Originally posted by Austin the Archmage

It's like asking someone to check out a TV show, then when they tell you they don't like, advise them to just keep watching more episodes.
You do realize this is a perfectly fine thing to do, don't you? People have done it before. Honest!

Regardless, advice is something you take or leave. There are no absolutes here, because we're not having a debate, we're having a discussion.

Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver).
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6641 Posts

Posted - 05 Oct 2015 :  08:47:58  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just as an aside, I remember arguing long and hard in the review of the 3E FRCS before it was published that bringing back a whole freaking city of Netherese arcanists was overkill and too big a power shift in the Realms. I advocated that they bring Shade back but make it crash down into Anauroch, killing most of its inhabitants and leaving a situation where you had a 'Ruins of Thultanthar' situation for adventuring as well as an opportunity to have some Shadevari scattered throughout the Inner Sea in disguise and acting behind the scenes to manipulate a few places/people (I'd recommended that Sembia be corrupted, one of the Dales, Mulmaster, there be a group in the Fallen Lands, one manipulating the humanoids of the Stonelands, etc). Of course we weren't to know that the introduction of the Shades in the setting went hand in hand with a bunch of novels already in the works.

In my view the return of Shade was the first step in the escalating crises trope that dominates WOTC's thinking and planning regarding the Realms. It's a bit like an ice addiction. The high lasts only for a short time and then you have to get another one quickly and need more of the drug to achieve the high. I can say openly I'm not a fan of the adventure-driven direction of the 5E Realms. The faction concept is so poor in its logical consistency with the campaign setting that it makes my eyes hurt whenever I have looked at one of the products. Coupled with the slavish submission to the requirements of the book and computer games departments, the RPG Realms is now a parody of itself. Gods again soon. Then drow. Then the demons or devils. Wash, rinse, repeat. Yay. It no longer is a campaign setting. Just a setting.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Edited by - George Krashos on 05 Oct 2015 08:48:53
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe

Portugal
508 Posts

Posted - 05 Oct 2015 :  21:11:33  Show Profile Send Tanthalas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
Not particularly, because it wasn't really a question as it was posed. Rather a statement meant to cement the idea that "Shade is now a joke" and to cut off further discussion.


Shade is a joke. They simply don't exist anymore. They no longer have a powerful stronghold. We just have a scattering of shadovar with the only thing resembling leadership being an unimpressive arcanist and two relatives of the Most-high.

For that to change they actually have to do something of worth. Not have us pretending that they do.

Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage".
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 05 Oct 2015 :  21:40:42  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Just as an aside, I remember arguing long and hard in the review of the 3E FRCS before it was published that bringing back a whole freaking city of Netherese arcanists was overkill and too big a power shift in the Realms. I advocated that they bring Shade back but make it crash down into Anauroch, killing most of its inhabitants and leaving a situation where you had a 'Ruins of Thultanthar' situation for adventuring as well as an opportunity to have some Shadevari scattered throughout the Inner Sea in disguise and acting behind the scenes to manipulate a few places/people (I'd recommended that Sembia be corrupted, one of the Dales, Mulmaster, there be a group in the Fallen Lands, one manipulating the humanoids of the Stonelands, etc). Of course we weren't to know that the introduction of the Shades in the setting went hand in hand with a bunch of novels already in the works.




One of the 3E books teased us with the possibility of Selunarra returning to oppose Shade... I really liked the idea -- not from the perspective of another return, but to provide an effective counterbalance against Shade and another power group to mix things up.

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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe

Ireland
705 Posts

Posted - 05 Oct 2015 :  23:30:31  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What bothers me is how reckless WoTc made the Shadovar. There is arrogance and there is stupidity and Wotc made Shade into stupidity. Telemont had been alive for a few thousand years so he shouldn't have been in a hurry to take over the world. What he should of done was reestablish Netheril, even though it would be a slow process, and go from there.

Wizards goes too much for the big "BANG" without thinking about the aftermath.

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*.
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe

489 Posts

Posted - 06 Oct 2015 :  00:53:49  Show Profile Send Lilianviaten a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Just as an aside, I remember arguing long and hard in the review of the 3E FRCS before it was published that bringing back a whole freaking city of Netherese arcanists was overkill and too big a power shift in the Realms. I advocated that they bring Shade back but make it crash down into Anauroch, killing most of its inhabitants and leaving a situation where you had a 'Ruins of Thultanthar' situation for adventuring as well as an opportunity to have some Shadevari scattered throughout the Inner Sea in disguise and acting behind the scenes to manipulate a few places/people (I'd recommended that Sembia be corrupted, one of the Dales, Mulmaster, there be a group in the Fallen Lands, one manipulating the humanoids of the Stonelands, etc). Of course we weren't to know that the introduction of the Shades in the setting went hand in hand with a bunch of novels already in the works.




One of the 3E books teased us with the possibility of Selunarra returning to oppose Shade... I really liked the idea -- not from the perspective of another return, but to provide an effective counterbalance against Shade and another power group to mix things up.




I loved the idea of Selunarra too, because Selune was always Shar's archnemesis. According to 3E, 4E, and 5E (so far) FR lore, Selune has done virtually nothing to oppose Shar during the time when Shar was most dangerous.

1) Shade returns: Mystra's minions lead the charge in opposing Shar's minions

2) Shade initiates the Shadowstorm: Followers of Mask and Lathander lead the way in opposing Shar's plot to end Faerun

3) Shade besieges Cormyr and Myth Drannor: LARLOCH, of all people, is revealed to be behind much of Shade's success. Shar, goddess of SECRETS, is completely shocked by his involvement. Larloch single-handedly wipes out all of Netheril's most powerful mages. ?????

(And of course, everyone who was more powerful than Elminster is now either massively depowered or dead, leaving him the undisputed "Weavemaster" sigh....)

4) Lest I forget, Shar had another plot to destroy the world during the Sundering that was foiled by the followers of Helm, Sune, and Siamorphe. SIAMORPHE is involved in the battle to thwart Shar's plans, and STILL NO SELUNE????


Aside from Erin Evans, who has a follower of Selune as one of her supporting characters, the existence of Selune is completely ignored. Which wouldn't be such a big deal if Selune weren't the archnemesis to the villain that has been hogging all the spotlight. It's baffling to me. Larloch did more to defeat Shade than Selune did, and he's not even a god.

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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 06 Oct 2015 :  02:16:31  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Just as an aside, I remember arguing long and hard in the review of the 3E FRCS before it was published that bringing back a whole freaking city of Netherese arcanists was overkill and too big a power shift in the Realms. I advocated that they bring Shade back but make it crash down into Anauroch, killing most of its inhabitants and leaving a situation where you had a 'Ruins of Thultanthar' situation for adventuring as well as an opportunity to have some Shadevari scattered throughout the Inner Sea in disguise and acting behind the scenes to manipulate a few places/people (I'd recommended that Sembia be corrupted, one of the Dales, Mulmaster, there be a group in the Fallen Lands, one manipulating the humanoids of the Stonelands, etc). Of course we weren't to know that the introduction of the Shades in the setting went hand in hand with a bunch of novels already in the works.




One of the 3E books teased us with the possibility of Selunarra returning to oppose Shade... I really liked the idea -- not from the perspective of another return, but to provide an effective counterbalance against Shade and another power group to mix things up.




I loved the idea of Selunarra too, because Selune was always Shar's archnemesis. According to 3E, 4E, and 5E (so far) FR lore, Selune has done virtually nothing to oppose Shar during the time when Shar was most dangerous.

1) Shade returns: Mystra's minions lead the charge in opposing Shar's minions

2) Shade initiates the Shadowstorm: Followers of Mask and Lathander lead the way in opposing Shar's plot to end Faerun

3) Shade besieges Cormyr and Myth Drannor: LARLOCH, of all people, is revealed to be behind much of Shade's success. Shar, goddess of SECRETS, is completely shocked by his involvement. Larloch single-handedly wipes out all of Netheril's most powerful mages. ?????

(And of course, everyone who was more powerful than Elminster is now either massively depowered or dead, leaving him the undisputed "Weavemaster" sigh....)

4) Lest I forget, Shar had another plot to destroy the world during the Sundering that was foiled by the followers of Helm, Sune, and Siamorphe. SIAMORPHE is involved in the battle to thwart Shar's plans, and STILL NO SELUNE????


Aside from Erin Evans, who has a follower of Selune as one of her supporting characters, the existence of Selune is completely ignored. Which wouldn't be such a big deal if Selune weren't the archnemesis to the villain that has been hogging all the spotlight. It's baffling to me. Larloch did more to defeat Shade than Selune did, and he's not even a god.





Heh, WotC doesn't really seem to like goddesses of the moon.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 06 Oct 2015 02:16:51
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mastermustard
Seeker

USA
78 Posts

Posted - 06 Oct 2015 :  03:05:47  Show Profile Send mastermustard a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul

I just get tired of the same old powerful NPC's that can't be stopped, end up beating the bad guys like they are naughty children, and saving the day.

Also, would someone make a claim as to why Mystra should continue to be the guardian of the Weave when a few nondivine immortals do it so much better? It's almost like the Chosen always have to clean up after her blunders.



I couldn't agree more. It was nice a nice change of pace to see Elminster get tossed about so casually by Larloch though.
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Veritas
Learned Scribe

209 Posts

Posted - 06 Oct 2015 :  03:06:04  Show Profile  Visit Veritas's Homepage Send Veritas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, there is always the old rub suggesting Selune has been heavily involved the entire time. Her manipulations are just not easily detectable by mortals (and so far have been concealed from readers). If Shar was that successful, imagine how bad it would have been had Selune not been interfering with her plans off-screen.

Of course I'm just making that all up because there is little if any suggestion in the published Realms that I am aware of that had Selune intervened at all.

Still, that would probably be a better example of divine intervention, one whose effects are felt without mortals even being aware of it at all. Selune is extremely old. Perhaps Larloch unknowingly came to the conclusion that this was his time to intervene because of some machination of Selune. He was a chosen of Mystryl, a deity who was ostensibly a daughter to Selune. If you believe Mystryl's creation myth.

Edited by - Veritas on 06 Oct 2015 03:09:16
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mastermustard
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Posted - 06 Oct 2015 :  03:12:23  Show Profile Send mastermustard a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Just as an aside, I remember arguing long and hard in the review of the 3E FRCS before it was published that bringing back a whole freaking city of Netherese arcanists was overkill and too big a power shift in the Realms. I advocated that they bring Shade back but make it crash down into Anauroch, killing most of its inhabitants and leaving a situation where you had a 'Ruins of Thultanthar' situation for adventuring as well as an opportunity to have some Shadevari scattered throughout the Inner Sea in disguise and acting behind the scenes to manipulate a few places/people (I'd recommended that Sembia be corrupted, one of the Dales, Mulmaster, there be a group in the Fallen Lands, one manipulating the humanoids of the Stonelands, etc). Of course we weren't to know that the introduction of the Shades in the setting went hand in hand with a bunch of novels already in the works.




One of the 3E books teased us with the possibility of Selunarra returning to oppose Shade... I really liked the idea -- not from the perspective of another return, but to provide an effective counterbalance against Shade and another power group to mix things up.




I loved the idea of Selunarra too, because Selune was always Shar's archnemesis. According to 3E, 4E, and 5E (so far) FR lore, Selune has done virtually nothing to oppose Shar during the time when Shar was most dangerous.

1) Shade returns: Mystra's minions lead the charge in opposing Shar's minions

2) Shade initiates the Shadowstorm: Followers of Mask and Lathander lead the way in opposing Shar's plot to end Faerun

3) Shade besieges Cormyr and Myth Drannor: LARLOCH, of all people, is revealed to be behind much of Shade's success. Shar, goddess of SECRETS, is completely shocked by his involvement. Larloch single-handedly wipes out all of Netheril's most powerful mages. ?????

(And of course, everyone who was more powerful than Elminster is now either massively depowered or dead, leaving him the undisputed "Weavemaster" sigh....)

4) Lest I forget, Shar had another plot to destroy the world during the Sundering that was foiled by the followers of Helm, Sune, and Siamorphe. SIAMORPHE is involved in the battle to thwart Shar's plans, and STILL NO SELUNE????


Aside from Erin Evans, who has a follower of Selune as one of her supporting characters, the existence of Selune is completely ignored. Which wouldn't be such a big deal if Selune weren't the archnemesis to the villain that has been hogging all the spotlight. It's baffling to me. Larloch did more to defeat Shade than Selune did, and he's not even a god.





You say anyone who was more powerful than Elminster is now dead or depowered, but do we know if this is true of Larloch?

I recall it being stated in The Herald that the wards of Candlekeep, which Larloch absorbed, could have turned a toad or a pixie into a demigod. Obviously this can't be true (right?) since neither toads nor pixies have a divine spark, but it is a pretty massive power up. He then went on to absorb much of a powerful mythal before being driven away. We still don't know as far as I'm aware (though admittedly I'm a few months behind) if Larloch was able to keep what he took to use towards his ends.

Edited by - mastermustard on 06 Oct 2015 03:18:24
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 06 Oct 2015 :  04:55:33  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

Heh, WotC doesn't really seem to like goddesses of the moon.



She did get some air time back in the days of 2E. She featured prominently in the DC/TSR comics, and fought Shar in them, during the ToT -- Shar actually came to Waterdeep and impersonated Selūne. At the conclusion of the ToT, she went back to doing the divine gig, and left the bar her avatar had tended to one of her friends, the later Moonstar, Lord of Waterdeep, and Blackstaff Kyriani Agrivar.

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Jeremy Grenemyer
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Posted - 06 Oct 2015 :  05:41:08  Show Profile Send Jeremy Grenemyer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas

Shade is a joke.
Actually, it's a ruin. Pretty fresh one, too.

quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas

They simply don't exist anymore.
Shade isn't a "they." The Shadovar still exist.

quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas

They no longer have a powerful stronghold.
I don't recall reading anything in the Herald that confirms this.

Did you mean to say that they don't currently occupy a powerful stronghold?

quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas

We just have a scattering of shadovar with the only thing resembling leadership being an unimpressive arcanist and two relatives of the Most-high.
I don't recall The Herald indicating the trio you're referring to as being the only Shadovar aspiring to some sort of power position.

quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas

For that to change they actually have to do something of worth.
So you agree: let's wait and see.

I knew we'd get there eventually.

Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver).
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Irennan
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Italy
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Posted - 06 Oct 2015 :  13:08:40  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

Heh, WotC doesn't really seem to like goddesses of the moon.



She did get some air time back in the days of 2E. She featured prominently in the DC/TSR comics, and fought Shar in them, during the ToT -- Shar actually came to Waterdeep and impersonated Selūne. At the conclusion of the ToT, she went back to doing the divine gig, and left the bar her avatar had tended to one of her friends, the later Moonstar, Lord of Waterdeep, and Blackstaff Kyriani Agrivar.



Well, that kind of proves my point, since the last time Selune got some attention was when D&D/FR were under TSR.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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Lilianviaten
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Posted - 06 Oct 2015 :  15:57:44  Show Profile Send Lilianviaten a Private Message  Reply with Quote
MasterMustard, usually in cases like that, if any part of the ritual is interrupted or altered, the whole ritual is null and void. So I was under the impression that he didn't retain any of that power. Here's what we know for sure:


SPOILERS


SPOILERS



SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!







1) Elminster notes in the next book (Spellstorm) that Larloch is still alive, but he is greatly diminished and is recovering. I forget exactly what the Srinshee hit him with, but she messed him up bad.

2) Spellstorm deals (in part) with a plot by Larloch's servitor liches, who are now clearly free. So we know that his previously unassailable mental link, through which he dominated his 60+ servitor liches, is now broken.

3) Srinshee sacrifices herself for no good reason at the end of The Herald.

4) Elminster admits in the Spellstorm novel that he would have lost a spell duel to Telamont, which is why he sneak attacked him through the Weave.

5) Manshoon, who had recently defeated Elminster (in El's diminished 4e state), was depowered in Spellstorm. Manshoon had a spark of Mystra's divinity in him that Mystra commanded Elminster to remove.

6) Shaan the Serpent Queen (yes, the one who once casually disintegrated an island) was killed beyond any hope of resurrection in the Spellstorm novel.

7) CONCLUSION: Three mages are revealed to be more powerful than Elminster in The Herald: Larloch, Srinshee, and Telamont. At the end of the novel, Telamont and Srinshee are dead, and Larloch is greatly diminished in power.

8) CONCLUSION: In Spellstorm, 2 mages are on Elminster's approximate level: Manshoon and Shaan the Serpent Queen. At the end of the novel, Manshoon is greatly diminished in power and Shaan the Serpent Queen is dead.

9) P.S.: SHAR herself also mentions in The Herald that with the SINGLE EXCEPTION of Szass Tam conquering Thay, Elminster has thwarted every major plot in the last 400 YEARS. So any mage capable of standing up to Elminster is dead or sidelined, and the goddess of secrets, who has been duping everybody throughout 3E and 4E, is at a loss for how to stop Elminster from foiling her plans. Should Iolaum take center stage in the next novel so Elminster can show us that elder brain Netherese liches are mere target practice for his spells?
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