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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Sep 2015 : 19:31:41
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Was destroying these two really necessary?
Myth Drannor is one of the most famous places in the Realms and Shade is a place from an arcane age of mighty human wizards. Why didn't they just cause Shade Enclave to lose the magic of their flying cities and force them to rebuild Araunoch?
Seems like a waste to me.
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“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2015 : 20:00:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Was destroying these two really necessary?
Myth Drannor is one of the most famous places in the Realms and Shade is a place from an arcane age of mighty human wizards. Why didn't they just cause Shade Enclave to lose the magic of their flying cities and force them to rebuild Araunoch?
Seems like a waste to me.
Nope. I was beyond angry when they did. |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2015 : 20:00:39
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It was done to try to bring the Realms closer to the pre-4E era.
Talk about throwing away the baby with the bathwater. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2015 : 21:12:44
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Didn't Ed point out somewhere in the ask Ed Scrolls that Myth Drannor wasn't completely destroyed? I thought the word from Ed was that M. Drannor was a big place and that the City of Shade crashing there didn't destroy the whole city, just a few blocks. Looking at the map I have from the Myth Drannor box, that answer still makes sense.
Have they countered that absolutely? I know a few sources have said M. Drannor was destroyed, but there's a difference between being destroyed and having to rebuild (which, as I understand, was what was happening anyway) and being destroyed and abandoned. Are the elves now abandoning M. Drannor again? Or is it just a big wreck that'll take some time to rebuild? Because I can work with the last one. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2015 : 21:21:29
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| Not only Ed talked about that in his scroll, he also wrote an article: http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/after-fall |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 03 Sep 2015 21:21:57 |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2015 : 21:58:45
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I'm sorry Mr.Greenwood for saying this but this story only had one outcome to begin with and anyone with a pair of eyes could see it a mile away. I'm really tired of the endless success when it comes to Elminster and the Chosen. Shade and the Netherese didn't need to be destroyed and used on this fruitless quest that never had a chance of succeeding because of the players involved. I feel it is a waste of ancient and powerful NPC's that have a rich and full history. All super villains of the world should just go ahead and give up because the authors are not going to allow them to win. I'm also really getting tired of the many faces of Mystra. I would rather see her go back to being Mystryl, reclaiming all of her power, and making her hold on the Weave secure.
It just really gets old and makes me want to read FR novels less and less. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2015 : 22:07:29
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You guys are past 1357 DR?
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The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2015 : 22:17:34
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I get the frustration. There was a line in The Herrald--I don't recall the page number--where Elminster says something about Myth Drannor's coming fall in a way that seemed to jump right out and aim itself at the people in charge of the Realms at WotC. That line resonated with me.
Of course, if I were DMing a 5E Realms campaign I would skip the published stuff and send he players straight into newly ruined Myth Drannor/Shade as soon as possible. You've got the two overlapping cities, the remnants of an enormous mercenary army, tens of thousands dead (read: happy necromancers) and a host of terribly powerful monsters running around the perimeter that were kept in stasis by the Chosen and now are free to wreak havoc.
Talk about an adventure rich environment! |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 03 Sep 2015 22:19:10 |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2015 : 22:34:31
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I definitely get the frustration with them nuking Shade. I personally think that having small pockets of powerful Netherese refugees scattered about Faerun, vying for their own tiny little empire or sphere of influence is an excellent opportunity, and I prefer it to a huge floating City wandering around like an evil empire, crushing opposition with a shadowy fist, but I can put myself in those that disagree's shoes here.
I love Jeremy's idea about turning the Ruins of M. Drannor into an undead infested environment, with Necromancers striving for control of the area. It works even better if you add Elven factions into the mix trying to reclaim their ancestral city.
Was destroying Shade & Myth Drannor necessary? No, and I can see arguments for them doing it better than it was done. But the end result doesn't obliterate the Shadovar from the map. It just puts any ideas for conquest on a more... equal playing field, one that a DM can reflavor to his tastes.
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- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2015 : 22:44:18
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| There's also the Land Under Shadow. The Netherese must have done a lot to explore and even revitalize the region they claimed. With the sands advancing once more, a whole bunch of places just got reset to ruins. Plenty of opportunities to explore them, especially if the PCs discover something in the ruins of Shade that encourages them to make the journey west to Anourach. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2015 : 22:50:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
There's also the Land Under Shadow. The Netherese must have done a lot to explore and even revitalize the region they claimed. With the sands advancing once more, a whole bunch of places just got reset to ruins. Plenty of opportunities to explore them, especially if the PCs discover something in the ruins of Shade that encourages them to make the journey west to Anourach.
Aye. It'll be interesting to see what they've done there. From my perspective, one minute Shade was revitalizing the area, making it blossom and prosper, and the next its back to the mean old desert its always been. I'm sure I missed something, but I'd like to know more about that area. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2015 : 23:14:46
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I just get tired of the same old powerful NPC's that can't be stopped, end up beating the bad guys like they are naughty children, and saving the day.
Also, would someone make a claim as to why Mystra should continue to be the guardian of the Weave when a few nondivine immortals do it so much better? It's almost like the Chosen always have to clean up after her blunders. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2015 : 23:20:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
I just get tired of the same old powerful NPC's that can't be stopped, end up beating the bad guys like they are naughty children, and saving the day.
This didn't happen in The Herrald, mind. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2015 : 23:22:04
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I've not read the book in question, but I for one am damned glad to see the (literal) fall of Shade. I have been thoroughly fed up with the ALL SHADE, ALL THE TIME approach of the last several years, and in particular with seeing Shade curbstomp everyone in their path despite just being a single city. I found the destruction of Zhentil Keep to be quite objectionable, and Shade finding and conquering the Lost Vale remains one of my biggest complaints about the 4E era.
I realize that the Lost Vale is a relatively small and unimportant corner of the Realms, but that very fact is one of the things that makes Shade's attention there quite inexplicable.
As for Myth Drannor, turning it into a (somewhat) settled city robbed the setting of a lot of its potential. It turned one of the best "dungeons" of the Realms into just another city. Certainly, there is potential in a civilized and populated city, but the Realms has many other such locales -- ruins full of fiends, lost magical goodies, and fields of twisted magic are not as common.
So was the destruction of Shade and Myth Drannor necessary? In my opinion, the answer isn't just yes, it's hell yes. It was both necessary and long overdue. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2015 : 23:25:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
I just get tired of the same old powerful NPC's that can't be stopped, end up beating the bad guys like they are naughty children, and saving the day.
Also, would someone make a claim as to why Mystra should continue to be the guardian of the Weave when a few nondivine immortals do it so much better? It's almost like the Chosen always have to clean up after her blunders.
I kinda get the impression that that's what the Chosen are supposed to do. It's been repeated a lot (and rather explicitly in Spellstorm) that the Chosen are supposed to keep Mystra's power in check so she doesn't become more powerful than Ao.
I can see that not being everyone's cup of tea, but it is what it is. I, personally was kinda hopeful when they were playing up the whole, "Elminster grows weary of the world, and just wants to retire" line. I was kinda hoping he'd do just that, retire and become the wise old Sage in his tower that adventurers and others go to for advice... at their own peril.
I don't mind El being a Chosen, and I don't mind him being powerful. Yet, I don't get tired of him, I just don't read Elminster books if I'm not in the mood for Elminster saves the world stories. I get that there's pretty much nothing else new out there. We're pretty much limited to El, Havilar, and Drizzt at present. But that's where I start working on the Realms novels I haven't read. (I'm looking at the Harpers series right now. I've only read Elaine's books from that stack.)
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- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2015 : 23:29:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Shade finding and conquering the Lost Vale remains one of my biggest complaints about the 4E era.
I realize that the Lost Vale is a relatively small and unimportant corner of the Realms, but that very fact is one of the things that makes Shade's attention there quite inexplicable.
I didn't realize this took place. That kinda irks me. I loved the Sauriels. Did they wipe them out? Or just enslave them? |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2015 : 23:58:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've not read the book in question, but I for one am damned glad to see the (literal) fall of Shade. I have been thoroughly fed up with the ALL SHADE, ALL THE TIME approach of the last several years, and in particular with seeing Shade curbstomp everyone in their path despite just being a single city. I found the destruction of Zhentil Keep to be quite objectionable, and Shade finding and conquering the Lost Vale remains one of my biggest complaints about the 4E era.
I realize that the Lost Vale is a relatively small and unimportant corner of the Realms, but that very fact is one of the things that makes Shade's attention there quite inexplicable.
As for Myth Drannor, turning it into a (somewhat) settled city robbed the setting of a lot of its potential. It turned one of the best "dungeons" of the Realms into just another city. Certainly, there is potential in a civilized and populated city, but the Realms has many other such locales -- ruins full of fiends, lost magical goodies, and fields of twisted magic are not as common.
So was the destruction of Shade and Myth Drannor necessary? In my opinion, the answer isn't just yes, it's hell yes. It was both necessary and long overdue.
What's the difference between Elminster curbstomping any evil villain and Shade curbstomping anyone they come across?
The problem isn't Shade itself and the concept, it's how they were written in novels. I would have rather seen the flying city grounded in the desert and they spend many years trying to reverse the spells of the Phaerimm and bring Anauroch back to a resemblance of what it once was. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 00:11:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
I just get tired of the same old powerful NPC's that can't be stopped, end up beating the bad guys like they are naughty children, and saving the day.
Also, would someone make a claim as to why Mystra should continue to be the guardian of the Weave when a few nondivine immortals do it so much better? It's almost like the Chosen always have to clean up after her blunders.
I kinda get the impression that that's what the Chosen are supposed to do. It's been repeated a lot (and rather explicitly in Spellstorm) that the Chosen are supposed to keep Mystra's power in check so she doesn't become more powerful than Ao.
I can see that not being everyone's cup of tea, but it is what it is. I, personally was kinda hopeful when they were playing up the whole, "Elminster grows weary of the world, and just wants to retire" line. I was kinda hoping he'd do just that, retire and become the wise old Sage in his tower that adventurers and others go to for advice... at their own peril.
I don't mind El being a Chosen, and I don't mind him being powerful. Yet, I don't get tired of him, I just don't read Elminster books if I'm not in the mood for Elminster saves the world stories. I get that there's pretty much nothing else new out there. We're pretty much limited to El, Havilar, and Drizzt at present. But that's where I start working on the Realms novels I haven't read. (I'm looking at the Harpers series right now. I've only read Elaine's books from that stack.)
I used to enjoy keeping with the canon of the Realms but not anymore. Also, the bad thing is that what happens in the novels affects future products and stuff like this just rubs me the wrong way.
I don't buy into the whole Mystra becoming more powerful than Ao because he holds powers that we don't know of, he has the ability to strip all of them, as we have seen with the ToT, so I find that a poor excuse.
It's getting to the point now when I basically find out the plot of the book, I will know if it will work or not and I just stop reading when I know it won't work.
I don't see why Elminster, Telemont, The Srinshee, and Larloch couldn't have had a stalemate. Larloch and Telamont are not stupid individuals, but I hate it when writers make them do stupid things in order for the good guys to win the day.
Let's look at this Out of the Abyss story. Tell me why Elminster, the Chosen, or even the gods of Good don't step after feeling a disturbance in the balance and step in by sending Elminster, the Chosen, and the good gods open gates to the Heavens and command their Solars and Devas, and Planetars to step in, take the demon lords, and restore the balance?
I'm just losing more and more respect for the Realms every day. I'm beginning to feel like I need to get ready to mourn the passing of an old friend. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 00:29:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Let's look at this Out of the Abyss story. Tell me why Elminster, the Chosen, or even the gods of Good don't step after feeling a disturbance in the balance and step in by sending Elminster, the Chosen, and the good gods open gates to the Heavens and command their Solars and Devas, and Planetars to step in, take the demon lords, and restore the balance?
A better question is, why would they do something like this? |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 00:33:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Let's look at this Out of the Abyss story. Tell me why Elminster, the Chosen, or even the gods of Good don't step after feeling a disturbance in the balance and step in by sending Elminster, the Chosen, and the good gods open gates to the Heavens and command their Solars and Devas, and Planetars to step in, take the demon lords, and restore the balance?
A better question is, why would they do something like this?
Why not?
Demon Lords have gained access to the mortal Realms by mistake. This amount of evil would send a ripple in the balance and attract the attention of powerful good guys.
Shade catches their attention but loads of demon lords empty from the Abyss and you ask why? |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 00:47:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Demon Lords have gained access to the mortal Realms by mistake.
This has happened before, hasn't it? Where is the record of the Chosen riding to the rescue?
I'll tell you why: Chosen don't jump on the good guy bandwagon just because Something Really Bad(TM) is coming down the pipe.
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
This amount of evil would send a ripple in the balance and attract the attention of powerful good guys.
Not the Chosen. Their choices have always been their own.
If they follow Mystra's dictates at all, it's because they decide to do so, not because they are forced to.
I could see the Sword Coast-based Chosen being concerned, provided this event found its way to Waterdeep or Silverymoon. It just doesn't strike me as an event that ranks as one of the worst things to have happened in the Realms, much less the Sword Coast and the Savage North. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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BenN
Senior Scribe
Japan
382 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 01:14:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Not only Ed talked about that in his scroll, he also wrote an article: http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/after-fall
From that article:
quote:
a few blocks of central Myth Drannor are rubble under the shattered remnants of Thultanthar. Scavenging monsters are roaming the battlefield, which is a huge stretch of forest littered with elf and human mercenary corpses (for Myth Drannor was a city of living forest, not a paved-over area crammed with buildings, like most human cities). All living elves have temporarily abandoned the city and the corpse-littered vicinity
I think the key word here is "temporarily". One thing to remember is that the Tree of Souls is still standing amidst the rubble of downtown Myth Drannor, and the elves are hardly going to abandon it. On the other hand, their forces were greatly weakened by the war, so they will need outside help to secure Myth Drannor again & rebuild. In other words, a big adventure hook. |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 01:23:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Demon Lords have gained access to the mortal Realms by mistake.
This has happened before, hasn't it? Where is the record of the Chosen riding to the rescue?
I'll tell you why: Chosen don't jump on the good guy bandwagon just because Something Really Bad(TM) is coming down the pipe.
In their own novels, they definitely do.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
This amount of evil would send a ripple in the balance and attract the attention of powerful good guys.
Not the Chosen. Their choices have always been their own.
If they follow Mystra's dictates at all, it's because they decide to do so, not because they are forced to.
I could see the Sword Coast-based Chosen being concerned, provided this event found its way to Waterdeep or Silverymoon. It just doesn't strike me as an event that ranks as one of the worst things to have happened in the Realms, much less the Sword Coast and the Savage North.
Demogorgon and a ton of lesser demons pouring into the Underdark seems like a minor event to you, does it?
Let's be realistic. Although the Chosen (of Mystra, in particular) ostensibly have a choice to either do or not do what Mystra wants, as exemplified by a few rogue Chosen, we are actually talking about Elminster and the Seven Sisters here. And they ALWAYS do what Mystra asks of them, unless they're seriously compromised in some way.
The only real reason they're not dashing off to fight Demogorgon and aid the Northern Underdark is because real world considerations don't allow for it. Salvatore won't use Ed's characters any more than the reverse.
If the Realms had any sense of realism any longer, it's a completely safe bet that a major demonic interplanar invasion would draw not only Elminster and the Seven Sisters to investigate, a ton of other high level mages and heroes would also come. There's so much metastory cheese in the canon Realms now that very little feels realistic any more.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 04 Sep 2015 01:25:00 |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 01:36:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
But the end result doesn't obliterate the Shadovar from the map.
Not really sure how you reached that conclusion. The most powerful Shade and all the princes are gone along with their stronghold. We're left with a trio of clowns "ruling over" a scattering of Shadovar.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
As for Myth Drannor, turning it into a (somewhat) settled city robbed the setting of a lot of its potential. It turned one of the best "dungeons" of the Realms into just another city. Certainly, there is potential in a civilized and populated city, but the Realms has many other such locales -- ruins full of fiends, lost magical goodies, and fields of twisted magic are not as common.
Well, that's one way to look at it.
For me, I'm so tired of elves always being in some form of "retreat" in settings. That's why the reclamation of Myth Drannor was so great. Now, it's just another boring dungeon to me. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
Edited by - Tanthalas on 04 Sep 2015 01:40:52 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 01:47:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
As for Myth Drannor, turning it into a (somewhat) settled city robbed the setting of a lot of its potential. It turned one of the best "dungeons" of the Realms into just another city. Certainly, there is potential in a civilized and populated city, but the Realms has many other such locales -- ruins full of fiends, lost magical goodies, and fields of twisted magic are not as common.
Well, that's one way to look at it.
For me, I'm so tired of elves always being in some form of "retreat" in settings. That's why the reclamation of Myth Drannor was so great. Now, it's just another boring dungeon to me.
I don't like it as yet another dungeon, and I agree with you about the retreat, but the rebuilding angle (suggested by Ed's articles) is interesting, and it is what it should have happened after the reclamation, instead of Myth Drannor being fully rebuilt and cleared from threats in few years.
The Shadovar, on the other hand, could have used a reduction in power (even a drastic one), but their influence has basically been neutered. I'm not happy with that (especially after we have been promised: ''no more removing stuff from the setting'').
@Wooly
quote:
I've not read the book in question, but I for one am damned glad to see the (literal) fall of Shade. I have been thoroughly fed up with the ALL SHADE, ALL THE TIME approach of the last several years, and in particular with seeing Shade curbstomp everyone in their path despite just being a single city. I found the destruction of Zhentil Keep to be quite objectionable, and Shade finding and conquering the Lost Vale remains one of my biggest complaints about the 4E era.
I agree with you about the Shades being so prominent, but that doesn't need to be solved with their removal. I mean, should we remove anything that gets overexposed? The obvious solution was to inflict the Shades a sound defeat, decreasing their power (but not making their influence neglectable), and to simply stop overusing them. Also, that just shifted the problem: now their flavor of the month villain is Lolth, as she keeps plotting and plotting, even after having been defeated two times, having lost resources and so on, she is up to a new ''grand plan'' yet again...
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 04 Sep 2015 01:58:23 |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 01:56:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
The obvious solution was to inflict the Shades a sound defeat, decreasing their power (but not making their influence neglectable), and to simply stop overusing them.
This is what should have happened.
Yes, the shadovar were overused, but at least their victories made them a credible threat. Now they're just a joke like all the loser evil factions scattered arund the Realms. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 02:17:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
But the end result doesn't obliterate the Shadovar from the map.
Not really sure how you reached that conclusion. The most powerful Shade and all the princes are gone along with their stronghold. We're left with a trio of clowns "ruling over" a scattering of Shadovar.
By the exact argument you gave. There are still Shadovar, people and mages that once called Shade their home, that exist. It might be a trio of clowns, but that is still a sum greater than zero. We don't really know how many survived. There could be unnamed mages and arcanists aplenty that shadow stepped away from the city before the end. We just don't know. If we'd nuked Thulthantar and all its inhabitants, leaving no room for any survivors, that'd be one thing. But there are survivors. A survivor that might have motivation for revenge, or to integrate with cultures around them, or whatever. It's one huge plot hook waiting to be tinkered with.
quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
Well, that's one way to look at it.
For me, I'm so tired of elves always being in some form of "retreat" in settings. That's why the reclamation of Myth Drannor was so great. Now, it's just another boring dungeon to me.
I agree about the elves being always in retreat part. But to my knowledge, there's still elves in Cormanthor. They didn't retreat after Shade fell. They're still there. And unless something has come along and said they're retreating again (which would annoy me,) then they still intend to stay and rebuild their kingdom.
I look at it like Pearl Harbor after Dec 7th or NYC after 9-11. They've taken a huge hit, yes. But that doesn't mean they can't rebuild. And that doesn't mean I can't start a campaign with some elven PC's that are intent on helping drive back the Necromancer's Undead hoard (as Jeremy suggested) and help reclaim the city for the Tel'Quessir.
quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowsoul
I used to enjoy keeping with the canon of the Realms but not anymore. Also, the bad thing is that what happens in the novels affects future products and stuff like this just rubs me the wrong way.
I don't buy into the whole Mystra becoming more powerful than Ao because he holds powers that we don't know of, he has the ability to strip all of them, as we have seen with the ToT, so I find that a poor excuse.
It's getting to the point now when I basically find out the plot of the book, I will know if it will work or not and I just stop reading when I know it won't work.
I don't see why Elminster, Telemont, The Srinshee, and Larloch couldn't have had a stalemate. Larloch and Telamont are not stupid individuals, but I hate it when writers make them do stupid things in order for the good guys to win the day.
Let's look at this Out of the Abyss story. Tell me why Elminster, the Chosen, or even the gods of Good don't step after feeling a disturbance in the balance and step in by sending Elminster, the Chosen, and the good gods open gates to the Heavens and command their Solars and Devas, and Planetars to step in, take the demon lords, and restore the balance?
I'm just losing more and more respect for the Realms every day. I'm beginning to feel like I need to get ready to mourn the passing of an old friend.
I can certainly understand the objection to Mystra potentially being more powerful than Ao for the reasons you give. It makes sense. I guess I just approach it differently. It's printed in canon, so either it's a clever lie told by Mystra's Chosen, whom Ed has hinted might be insane, or it's the truth and we don't know something about the limits of Ao's power. I like to leave that little mystery as something my PC's characters can argue about incessantly, much as we do here. But I'm not everyone. Some people need their ducks all in a row, and I understand that.
The stalemate idea sounds fun, now that you mention it. I might tinker with an alternate timeline in my own games and see how my PC's react to it.
As for the Out of the Abyss storyline... I really don't know why El and the Chosen squad don't interfere personally. I just know they don't, and my PC's are supposed the be the key characters. If their characters start asking questions, I simply treat it as knowledge beyond their reach. They don't know why El's ignoring them. It's not relevant to the current plot. The Realms is a big place. Maybe some equally huge evil bad thing is going down in Rasheman. They aren't in Rasheman, so they aren't privy to that info.
Again, I can understand people wanting all their ducks in a row, but it doesn't bother me. There's plenty of times nothing seems to make sense in the real world. From that, we get conspiracy theories, Iluminati, etc. Similar speculation could work in the Realms.
We aren't omniscient, and in the Realms, the DM doesn't have to be omniscient, he just needs to have an idea of what's going on in teleport range of his current PC's. 
Or at least, that's my style. It doesn't work for everyone. 
(Sorry for spamming emoticons. I'm just really trying to word things a way that's amicable, and doesn't come across as condescending or jerkish, and It's not working. ) |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 02:20:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
their own novels, they definitely do.
Particular instances in some novels are not indicative of the behavior of amystra's Chosen in all novels.
Just because a demon army is on the horizon is no guarantee the Chosen will show up.
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
Let's be realistic. Although the Chosen (of Mystra, in particular) ostensibly have a choice to either do or not do what Mystra wants, as exemplified by a few rogue Chosen, we are actually talking about Elminster and the Seven Sisters here. And they ALWAYS do what Mystra asks of them, unless they're seriously compromised in some way.
In what instance has Mystra commanded that all of her Chosen are to race across the Realms to intercept every last extraplanar threat in existence?
The Chosen tend not to disobey, but they do disagree with each other as to how to achieve an end, they will even fight each other if they can't find common ground, their goals sometimes conflict, and their methods and motives oft put them against the authorities.
We know from at least one novel that Mystra has foreseen great troubles along the Sword Coast, but she deferred from sending Elminster; his meddling continues further inland.
Anyway, the Chosen are not now, and have never been, of one mind, and they are certainly not a unified fighting force whose job it is to waylay serious threats to the Realms.
Shadowsoul is right: the Chosen do maintain a balance, but that balance has to do with the spread of magic and its preservation. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 04 Sep 2015 02:20:55 |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 02:26:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
[
Yes, the shadovar were overused, but at least their victories made them a credible threat. Now they're just a joke like all the loser evil factions scattered arund the Realms.
Can you point to anything in the lore that shows this to be true?
I mean, Shade just fell, so let's see what the survivors do before we write them off. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 04:45:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
What's the difference between Elminster curbstomping any evil villain and Shade curbstomping anyone they come across?
How many villains have been entirely removed from the equation by Elminster? How many times has he gone out of his way to kill a villain just because they were there? How many times has Elminster casually defeated greater foes with no apparent effort at all?
Elminster is powerful, yes, but most of what he's done has simply kept a balance. Shade, on the other hand, skewed everything out of balance and into their favor. It's not at all the same thing. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 04:48:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I agree with you about the Shades being so prominent, but that doesn't need to be solved with their removal. I mean, should we remove anything that gets overexposed? The obvious solution was to inflict the Shades a sound defeat, decreasing their power (but not making their influence neglectable), and to simply stop overusing them. Also, that just shifted the problem: now their flavor of the month villain is Lolth, as she keeps plotting and plotting, even after having been defeated two times, having lost resources and so on, she is up to a new ''grand plan'' yet again...
They weren't entirely removed; they're just not the top of the pile any more.
And destroying Shade didn't shift the problem: WotC's continual refusal to play up the shifting balances of many groups is the problem. Neutralizing Shade gave them a chance to bring things back into balance, but instead, they've chosen to run with the Threat of the Week! crap, and the OMG drowz are t3h kewl! schtick. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Was destroying Shade & Myth Drannor necessary?
