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eeorey
Seeker
Bulgaria
96 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Sep 2015 : 23:43:47
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After reading the book I share a lot of the negative opinions expressed in this thread, it was indeed to me simply a filler between Vengeance of the Iron Dwarf and the next novel in the series.
One thing that bugged me quite a lot however was that now that Gromph has a daughter, and this is a significant part of the plot as she is implanted with the memories of Yvonnel, there is no mention of his previous daughter - Liriel, I know different authors and all that but come on I just felt like we should get a mention and see how Gromph feel after all that time about her taking off and messing up his plans for her.
Also I would have liked to see how the Silver Marches were recovering, what is being done there to repair the damage caused by the war, what happened to the captives in Nesme from the previous book, they apparently have recovered their freedom and town, but how, after all that was a large part of the plot in the previous novel. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2015 : 00:19:24
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quote:
Originally posted by eeorey
One thing that bugged me quite a lot however was that now that Gromph has a daughter, and this is a significant part of the plot as she is implanted with the memories of Yvonnel, there is no mention of his previous daughter - Liriel, I know different authors and all that but come on I just felt like we should get a mention and see how Gromph feel after all that time about her taking off and messing up his plans for her.
When I saw threads mentioning Gromph's daughter, the last year, I immediately got excited, because I thought we would see more of Liriel. I was really disappointed when I learned that it was just a vessel for a matron to get reincarnated. We've got like 30 books focusing exclusively on Drizzt and RAS' cast, Drizzt currently takes 2 of the 4 yearly novels, come on... they could at least make an effort and include some varied lore in those novels. Even little passages or appearances, like the ones Ed includes, would make me happy.
quote:
Also I would have liked to see how the Silver Marches were recovering, what is being done there to repair the damage caused by the war, what happened to the captives in Nesme from the previous book, they apparently have recovered their freedom and town, but how, after all that was a large part of the plot in the previous novel.
My feeling is that this will either be adressed in the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide (which will basically be the 5e FRCS), or be handwaved away. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2015 : 13:32:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
I can agree on Cunningham and Kemp, you guys. Both have written some of my favorite novels in the Realms. They aren't better than RAS to me outright, but if forced to choose among those 3, I can't say who I would pick. If you've been keeping up with RAS novels, he does give us a LOOOONNG awaited update on Shakti Hunzrin from the Starlight and Shadows trilogy. I've always loved her.
RAS books to me now, feel a bit like WWF wrestling did in the early 90's.
Characters that are too perfect and have gotten stale. Hulk Hogan was boring by the early 90's. Only so long you can watch the same story of the ultimate good guy prevailing despite the odds. It was great at first. Hogan slamming Andre the giant. Hogan facing his former teammate Macho man. Hogan standing off against American traitor Sgt Slaughter.
But eventually Hulkamania lost its luster.
Wrestling went into the dark ages with comical good guy vs bad guy themes and it was targeting children. Villains like Yokozuna the unstoppable sumo and Doink the clown just did not feel compelling. Telling the same story of Lex Luger slamming Yokozuna as an American hero was done and old and the fans could not get behind it with the same vigor.
Hulk Hogan was actually booed as a good guy for a long time before he made his historic Heel turn against the fans in WCW and it revitalized wrestling. They started targeting teenagers and young adults age 17-35. WWF started following suit as fans had begun to cheer for bad guys like Steve Austin, who was so bad he was cool. The attitude era began. The age of the selfish anti hero and wrestling popularity exploded beyond anything previously seen.
We are in that age now. HBO shows like OZ, The wire and Game of thrones, which push the envelope with antiheroes and characters who throw morals aside to win, have taken over mass popularity, while standard PG fare can barely stay afloat.
I honestly felt really good after Gauntlgrym. It felt like Drizzt was entering the modern era. He had become less moral and more willing to kill with abandon with age as all his friends died and life's apathy hit him, and even became closer to Entreri in that series as his character leaned towards grey area, while Entreri's had long ago begun going from pure bad guy to grey area.
But it quickly spiraled back into goodie two shoes territory and lost steam to me. I read them still, but not with passion. Nor do I feel they are written with as much passion like they used to be.
Paul Kemp's books are the one's that truly encapsulated the "Attitude era", in darker themes game of thrones lite style.
But alas, the owners of WOTC now feel like the owners of WCW after Turner merged with Time Warner and AOL merged with them. WCW became a show they did not really care about and wanted off the air, so they did nothing to support it and even hindered it.
If WOTC cared at all for keeping FR going, they would immediately resign Kemp, Byers, Cunningham and others to write more books and pay them fairly.
One almost feels like wrestling went from a worldwide conglomerate to having downsized to a mere northeastern promotion with 3 shows a year |
Edited by - Firestorm on 05 Sep 2015 13:42:23 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2015 : 14:15:30
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IMO, we should be careful with the ''grey area'' thing. I'm all for nuanced character, but nuanced (and ''realistic'', so to speak, forgive me the expression) doesn't automatically mean grey morality. Some characters are meant to be ''lights'', that's part of who they are, they should not be made grey just to fit ''the attitude era'' (and a character who can show mercy and that will try to find a way around a problem that doesn't involve taking live, can show as much ''badassery'' as the grey, edgy and dark characters).
I'll premise that I don't read Drizzt (I've read the ''classics'' and like the character, but don't feel like reading more than that), so take what I say with a grain of salt. In his case, the shift made sense as character development, because he had lost a lot of what he held dear, and apathy kicked in. Now that he has got his friends and stuff back, it doesn't really make sense anymore. A complete reversal wouldn't make sense either, he should be still one of those ''lights'', just without leaving behind his last century experience.
What i think that is missing, however, are nuanced bad guys. Why must most of them basically be the reskin of the same kind of villain, with identical goals? Grey bad guys actually make for really interesting characters and stories, because they have a real purpose, even something relatable, and they fight for something concrete, rather than one (or more) among generic ''power, riches, evulz'' for their own sake. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 05 Sep 2015 16:18:03 |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2015 : 16:15:50
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One thing that's always bothered me about Salvatore's books is that, since very early on, lesbian activity is a definite thing, to the point where we are explicitly told that lesbian orgies are happening. Female non-heterosexual characters are confirmed to be very much that way, while the first openly gay male character appeared fairly recently, and has once again disappeared. I was honestly surprised to see that lesbian chemistry was restricted to sexual tension in the most recent book, given how overt female/female sex existed in the previous ones of the more recent novels. Yes, I am accusing Salvatore of fetishizing female/female sex/romance.
I've been really unimpressed with the return of the Companions, but in this most recent book, it's appalling to me that we're supposed to accept these people as the good guys. Wulfgar is a womanizer who has no qualms about cheating, and Bruenor is engaging in polygamy. Bob can justify it all he wants with Wulfgar finally being free of spirit and Bruenor following his heart, but when that freedom and that heart leads them to paradigms that our society determines as wrong, then no, the means by which they took there doesn't justify the actions. Psycho killers could just be following their hearts when they choose to mass murder people. Following one's heart is a good thing, mass murdering people is very much not.
To me, this is especially egregious because we're already led to accept sex with dragons and sentient beasts more readily than we're to accept that men can have sex with other men in Salvatore's dark elf series. Especially given that Ed's world, so stipulated by Mr. Greenwood himself and embraced by WotC, is one that is accepting of all sexualities, it just makes me mad that beastiality, cheating and polygamy are more prominent than non-heterosexual male characters. |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2015 : 17:18:59
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Shoutout to Firestorm for using a pro wrestling analogy. I LOVED the Golden Age of wrestling, with guys like Hulk, Macho, Perfect, Superfly, Flair. But I also loved the early 90s with Hitman, HBK, old school Undertaker, Razor Ramon, etc. But even with that said, my heart does lie in the Attitude Era (Stone Cold, The Rock, Mankind/Cactus Jack, DX, NWO, Crow Sting, Goldberg). Ok, I got sidetracked, but anyway, wrestling is awesome!
Back to FR, I like morally grey characters, and the Paul Kemp novels are BRILLIANT depictions of grey heroes (really, antiheroes). You have to admit though, the villains were mostly standard evil. Both the Shadovar and the Slaadi were dominate/destroy the world type of villains, but he characterized them very well. Vhostym the Sojourner does stand out to me as a truly unique, exceptionally crafted villain.
I miss the archetypes in some ways though. Lots of people hated Herzgo Alegni as a villain, and so did I. But people have become so used to these cremepuff, sympathetic villians that they expect to like the villain and identify with his plight. That gets old too! I liked seeing a villain who was an unrepentant killer and rapist. He was sick, he was evil, and I relished the thought of him being put down. The way Dahlia butchered him beyond recognition was immensely satisfying to me.
I would use a horror movie analogy. Horror movies stopped being scary when the villain became the centerpiece. This is especially true of slasher films, where they started to purposely make the "good guys" (see: teenagers) obnoxious and unlikable, so that we would want them to die. Combine that with a very sympathetic excuse for the villain (often mental illness or abuse), and now you have audiences rooting for the villain. I could do without the abundance of sparkly vampires, misunderstood ghosts, and emo werewolves. I want to fear the bad guys and be repulsed by their misdeeds.
Finally, RAS does an excellent job with grey characters. People always bring up Drizzt being a "goody 2 shoes", while completely ignoring his other characters. Artemis and Jarlaxle are 2 of the best antihero sort of characters I've ever read. Personally, I think Artemis has the best character progression of any RAS character. Zaknafein, Valas Hune, and Tos'un have all been great morally neutral characters as well. (Though for record, I have no clue what happened with Tos'un in the Companions Codex novels. Maybe the sword Cutter changed him over time?) |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2015 : 17:34:10
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quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
One thing that's always bothered me about Salvatore's books is that, since very early on, lesbian activity is a definite thing, to the point where we are explicitly told that lesbian orgies are happening. Female non-heterosexual characters are confirmed to be very much that way, while the first openly gay male character appeared fairly recently, and has once again disappeared. I was honestly surprised to see that lesbian chemistry was restricted to sexual tension in the most recent book, given how overt female/female sex existed in the previous ones of the more recent novels. Yes, I am accusing Salvatore of fetishizing female/female sex/romance.
I've been really unimpressed with the return of the Companions, but in this most recent book, it's appalling to me that we're supposed to accept these people as the good guys. Wulfgar is a womanizer who has no qualms about cheating, and Bruenor is engaging in polygamy. Bob can justify it all he wants with Wulfgar finally being free of spirit and Bruenor following his heart, but when that freedom and that heart leads them to paradigms that our society determines as wrong, then no, the means by which they took there doesn't justify the actions. Psycho killers could just be following their hearts when they choose to mass murder people. Following one's heart is a good thing, mass murdering people is very much not.
To me, this is especially egregious because we're already led to accept sex with dragons and sentient beasts more readily than we're to accept that men can have sex with other men in Salvatore's dark elf series. Especially given that Ed's world, so stipulated by Mr. Greenwood himself and embraced by WotC, is one that is accepting of all sexualities, it just makes me mad that beastiality, cheating and polygamy are more prominent than non-heterosexual male characters.
I'm not sure how having wild sex lives would make Wulfgar and Bruenor any less the good guys here. Maybe they are not paragons of virtue like Drizzt, but I would be hard pressed to see how you could not root for them over orcs, drow, or shades. Unlike the orcs, drow, and shades, Wulfgar and Bruenor at least give women a choice in whether to have sexual relations with them. When they got captured in Gauntlgrym, it was clear that the drow intended to rape Dahlia and put her through all sorts of agony. It's only by Quenthel's decree that they haven't already, and I can't imagine what the shades would have done if they had recaptured her.
On the sex with dragons thing, I never could wrap my mind around that. Even if they are in human disguise, they are still giant lizards!! I have to think that realistically, the very idea would gross most people out. I love Afafrenfere (like RAS, I have a weakness for monks), so I surely hope to see him return. I want him to bring the ascended Grandmaster Kane along, so they can reintroduce Kane's foot to Orcus's behind. I wouldn't mind seeing him with a love interest either, but I don't know if his vows allow for that.
I too, am surprised that Quenthel's love interest hasn't been explored. As I recall for the WOTSQ series, she's a lesbian, and that's how Danifae was able to manipulate her with sex. So I would think she's been messing around with some hot drow lady since she returned to Menzo. |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2015 : 17:59:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
I'm not sure how having wild sex lives would make Wulfgar and Bruenor any less the good guys here. Maybe they are not paragons of virtue like Drizzt, but I would be hard pressed to see how you could not root for them over orcs, drow, or shades. Unlike the orcs, drow, and shades, Wulfgar and Bruenor at least give women a choice in whether to have sexual relations with them. When they got captured in Gauntlgrym, it was clear that the drow intended to rape Dahlia and put her through all sorts of agony. It's only by Quenthel's decree that they haven't already, and I can't imagine what the shades would have done if they had recaptured her.
On the sex with dragons thing, I never could wrap my mind around that. Even if they are in human disguise, they are still giant lizards!! I have to think that realistically, the very idea would gross most people out. I love Afafrenfere (like RAS, I have a weakness for monks), so I surely hope to see him return. I want him to bring the ascended Grandmaster Kane along, so they can reintroduce Kane's foot to Orcus's behind. I wouldn't mind seeing him with a love interest either, but I don't know if his vows allow for that.
I too, am surprised that Quenthel's love interest hasn't been explored. As I recall for the WOTSQ series, she's a lesbian, and that's how Danifae was able to manipulate her with sex. So I would think she's been messing around with some hot drow lady since she returned to Menzo.
There's a difference between having wild sex lives and engaging in questionable practices. Wulfgar being promiscuous is perfectly fine. Wulfgar having no qualms about potentially cheating on Aleina is another matter. While it's true that the relationship between Wulfgar and Aleina is most likely just a casual hook-up, the reactions of the other Companions indicate that such hasn't been determined to be the case, and Aleina may have been more committed to the idea of the relationship than Wulfgar was. As for Bruenor taking on two queens, that's... I mean, part of me says that, so long as all the parties are consenting that it's ok, and Salvatore tried to paint this picture in which Fist 'n Fury has to share EVERYTHING (including, apparently, a husband).
Realistically, however, how likely is that? About as likely as every other female character having bisexual tendencies, it seems. :
It's not that I'd root for the monstrous horde over the "good guys" (although personally I've always been more fond of the villains like Artemis and Jarlaxle over the CotH). It's just that I find it questionable that the "good guys" would behave in such ways. It's one thing when Wulfgar and Penelope have casual sex, because that's what it's understood be to both parties, but another thing when Wulfgar is running off to sleep with everything he can while not making sure his partners are on the same page. And again, back to Bruenor, the consent is implied to be there, as unrealistic as it is. To me, Bruenor's "arrangement" is as illogical as having sex with giant lizards.
Afrafrenfere's sexuality is something that was just barely mentioned, so subtly that most people would've missed it. Only if a reader paid attention to Parbid's gender (which was difficult because Parbid lived a total of what, a page or two?) and assume that Ambergris had some measure of truth in her teasing of Af can we determine that the young monk is into men. I'm just baffled by how much Bob tiptoes around the subject of non-heterosexual males while he drops lesbian orgies in our faces. :
Quenthal is an interesting one, but I don't think that Bob will ever explore her sexuality. Like all female drow it seems (and really, all female non-drow as well -_-), she copulates with both men and women. This fact, along with his inadequate depictions of female characters in general, makes me wonder and worry about how exactly Bob feels about women in general. >_> |
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DandelionClock
Seeker
67 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2015 : 18:23:10
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Maybe good guys can be asses, too. I don't mind that as much, as it's being pointed out by Regis, too. There'll be consequences.
What leaves me wondering is how a) an author can write more relaxed about a guy having sex with dragons while remaining super vague about his one gay character (it remains second hand knowledge, his lover lives for a few lines, Amber calling it "confusion" etc pp - we have yet to see someone leaving the scene smirking over the shoulder of his lover, whereas we've had several such scenes with Jar and the dragon ladies now, for example) - and it's all supposed to be super progressive because no one gives Afafrenfere grief over something that basically never happened "on screen".
And then there's this ongoing trend of canonically bi (or lesbian, and in Parbid's case, gay) characters being either evil or at a morally ambigious time of their lives. Dahlia is portraied as bi (again, off screen, as mentioned, mostly) and it very much reeks of the "psycho/ promiscous bi bitch" trope, is it does with most of the drow women or rather "evil society knows no sexual . Any gayYou can argue for every single case or story line, but there's a pattern.
And just no one misunderstands me here, "happening onscreen" isn't explicit sex scenes, it's seeing someone actually, in the plot, with their partner - as we frequently see all the m/f couples interact, no more, no less. Did I miss something? |
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Veritas
Learned Scribe
209 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2015 : 23:23:53
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| After finishing the novel, I feel that this has been Bob's weakest entry in a long time. I've been on a Bob bender of sorts, having just worked my way through Demon Wars and am midway through the Saga of the First King series and I can feel a huge difference. For whatever reason, Archmage to me is not a compelling read. |
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GERGE
Acolyte
9 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2015 : 11:36:49
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| What do you think about the changes of a Wulfgar&Regis book? I think it might be good. |
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BenN
Senior Scribe
Japan
382 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2015 : 12:26:31
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Now finished it. I've revised my initial impressions somewhat. As others have mentioned, it does feel like the set-up for a grander/larger story coming in later books.
My opinion of the characterisation of Cattie-Brie, Drizzt & other main characters has not changed; they are not particularly interesting, and some (especially Cattie-Brie) are becoming ridiculously powerful.
The most interesting developments are towards the end (including the involvement of Zeerith Q'Xorlarrin); the storyline is becoming a bit more nuanced.
Speculation (highlight to reveal, as it is somewhat spoilery):
When Demogorgon & other major nasties from the Abyss realize that Lloth is plotting a coup in their absence, how will they get their revenge? One of the main sources of a deity's power is the prayers of their worshippers, so if Demogorgon goes after the drow, that could damage Lloth, no? |
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DandelionClock
Seeker
67 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2015 : 15:06:11
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quote:
Originally posted by BenN
Now finished it. I've revised my initial impressions somewhat. As others have mentioned, it does feel like the set-up for a grander/larger story coming in later books.(...)
Yeah, that's been said about several of the last books, though... at some point, shouldn't that all just happen, with the set up being in the same book as the big events?
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2015 : 16:46:27
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quote:
Originally posted by GERGE
What do you think about the changes of a Wulfgar&Regis book? I think it might be good.
RAS mentioned at one of his AMAs that he'd love to write a story about Regis, as well as Afrafrenfere. He didn't mention Wulfgar though, but with Regis and Wulfgar splitting off like that, I'd imagine that we'd at least see something about their journey in future books. I personally can't really imagine much substance other than on Regis' side, as the reborn Wulfgar is rather boring. Regis, however, has his own life and legacy to figure out, so I can see an involved story there. I just don't see what Wulfgar brings to Regis' tale. |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2015 : 05:13:58
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So, at the final conclusion of all this... when Lolth conquers the Abyss and kills off Demogorgon & Co... then Drizzt jumps into the scene and casually kills Lolth, will Drizzt just reveal himself to be Grazzt, and mock us for reading all the novels, before he flushes all of reality into the Abyss?  |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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Veritas
Learned Scribe
209 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2015 : 13:27:43
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quote:
Originally posted by eeorey
One thing that bugged me quite a lot however was that now that Gromph has a daughter, and this is a significant part of the plot as she is implanted with the memories of Yvonnel, there is no mention of his previous daughter - Liriel, I know different authors and all that but come on I just felt like we should get a mention and see how Gromph feel after all that time about her taking off and messing up his plans for her.
Just to this point, Gromph undoubtedly has fathered several, if not many, children already and doesn't value them more than their usefulness to him. With Liriel he experimented with raising her as a Baenre and as a wizard hoping to enhance his status by having dominion over a female of rank when Liriel came into her own. Instead, his youthful and wayward daughter ran off. She was of no more use to him.
I doubt Gromph spares much of any thought to Liriel or any other children he may have. |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2015 : 13:37:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Veritas
quote:
Originally posted by eeorey
One thing that bugged me quite a lot however was that now that Gromph has a daughter, and this is a significant part of the plot as she is implanted with the memories of Yvonnel, there is no mention of his previous daughter - Liriel, I know different authors and all that but come on I just felt like we should get a mention and see how Gromph feel after all that time about her taking off and messing up his plans for her.
Just to this point, Gromph undoubtedly has fathered several, if not many, children already and doesn't value them more than their usefulness to him. With Liriel he experimented with raising her as a Baenre and as a wizard hoping to enhance his status by having dominion over a female of rank when Liriel came into her own. Instead, his youthful and wayward daughter ran off. She was of no more use to him.
I doubt Gromph spares much of any thought to Liriel or any other children he may have.
It seems weirder to me that Quenthel and all focus SO heavily on going after a "mere male" of a house that was destroyed (aka Drizzt) than going after Liriel who was not only a powerful female but an actual Baenre. Not just that, Liriel was formerly a priestess of Lolth - who rejected Lolth AND refused the powers of being Lolth's Chosen.
But hey, forget Liriel, go after the houseless male.
There are real-world author reasons, of course, but the verisimilitude keeps dropping.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 07 Sep 2015 13:45:19 |
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Veritas
Learned Scribe
209 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2015 : 13:49:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
It seems weirder to me that Quenthel and all focus SO heavily on going after a "mere male" of a house that was destroyed (aka Drizzt) than going after Liriel who was not only a powerful female but an actual Baenre.
There are real-world author reasons, of course, but the verisimilitude keeps dropping.
Not so strange when you consider the character's history.
Drizzt was used, in part, as a pretext for the invasion of Mithril Hall. He was a nobody until Yvonnel Baenre herself inflated his importance and she was a massively influential figure. Then he escaped, while slaying Baenre's famous weapon master and causing a spike to go through the Baenre chapel.
Considering how one drow so inconvenienced the first house at the height of its power, it doesn't seem so odd that other drow would begin to think that his head would be a particularly noteworthy trophy.
Regarding Quenthel, Drizzt killed her. She's not the type to let bygones be bygones. Yvonnel's assault on Mithril Hall (using, among other things, Drizzt as a pretext) resulted in the Matron's death, among other notable drow nobles.
Liriel by comparison caused a tiny ruckus and didn't accomplish much of any import to Menzoberranzan at large. She's probably presumed dead and hasn't been thought about by anyone in the city (except for maybe Shakti) in more than a century.
In any event, I didn't read Drizzt as all that important to many of the truly powerful top nobles. His head seems much more valuable to those who are somewhat stuck in their position and need the prestige boost to advance. |
Edited by - Veritas on 07 Sep 2015 13:53:40 |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2015 : 13:54:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Veritas
Not so strange when you consider the character's history.
Drizzt was used, in part, as a pretext for the invasion of Mithril Hall. He was a nobody until Yvonnel Baenre herself inflated his importance and she was a massively influential figure. Then he escaped, while slaying Baenre's famous weapon master and causing a spike to go through the Baenre chapel.
Considering how one drow so inconvenienced the first house at the height of its power, it doesn't seem so odd that other drow would begin to think that his head would be a particularly noteworthy trophy.
Regarding Quenthel, Drizzt killed her. She's not the type to let bygones be bygones. Yvonnel's assault on Mithril Hall (using, among other things, Drizzt as a pretext) resulted in the Matron's death, among other notable drow nobles.
Liriel by comparison caused a tiny ruckus and didn't accomplish much of any import to Menzoberranzan at large. She's probably presumed dead and hasn't been thought about by anyone in the city (except for maybe Shakti) in more than a century.
Lolth would care more about Liriel than Drizzt, I think. She doesn't take well to being rejected, particularly one she has favored as a Yor'thae (Chosen).
Yet nothing has been even mentioned about Liriel. Tons of resources are spent focusing on Drizzt, though, with the full favor of Lolth.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2015 : 14:17:15
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I agree about Liriel. What puzzles me is the in-world reason why Lolth keeps focusing on Drizzt. There are s lot of drow who have rejected her, the followers of her two children have even actively fought her influence and tried to bring more and more drow to refulse her, and yet she has this special thing for Drizzt. I get that he is a Chosen, but, as said, so was Liriel (she was her chosen), and so was Qilué (whom she basically ignored).
That's even more evident now. The drow keep going on with their Drizzt-hunts, but Lolth is basically indifferent to Eilistraee and Vhaeraun being alive and kicking again. They are way more of a threat to her dominance than Drizzt could ever be (I mean, most drow beyond Menzoberranzan probably don't even know who he is), their return is a huge thing for the drow, and yet Lolth seems to not care at all. That's just weird, from an in-world perspective.
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So, at the final conclusion of all this... when Lolth conquers the Abyss and kills off Demogorgon & Co... then Drizzt jumps into the scene and casually kills Lolth, will Drizzt just reveal himself to be Grazzt, and mock us for reading all the novels, before he flushes all of reality into the Abyss?
That would actually be amusing... |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 07 Sep 2015 14:20:09 |
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Veritas
Learned Scribe
209 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2015 : 14:24:07
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We haven't exactly seen enough about Lolth post Sundering to determine what she cares about. In any event, Drizzt is more useful to Lolth than Liriel.
Liriel has done little to anything of consequence to the city of Menzoberranzan. She is just one of a number of drow who have slipped out of her influence.
Lolth uses Drizzt the way Yvonnel did, as a convenient pretext to stir her followers into action. Drizzt, at least, inflicted actual harm to the city and slew some of its most famous nobles. Moreover, his importance is largely inflated for that very reason, so she can channel the energies of the drow without giving the appearance of doing so too overtly.
Liriel did nothing of the sort. Her actions were only of consequence to a handful of drow.
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2015 : 14:40:35
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If she cared about what Eilistraee and Vhaeraun could do now that they are back, you'd guess that they would at least be mentioned by her clergy and that they would have taken action by now. Idk about Drizzt being a way to move the drow: the followers of Lolth would obey her no matter what she told them to do, and I can't really see why would the drow care about Drizzt slaying a few nobles, especially not more than -say- followers of Vhaeraun destroying a whole city. They are not known to be united or care for each other, nor (correct me if I'm wrong) they have some sort of city pride, or something along those lines. Killing Drizzt could net Lolth's favor to those who manage it, and this could be (as you say) the way that Lolth keeps ''channeling the energies of the drow''. But why only Drizzt? You have many drow slipping out of Lolth's control, she could ''channel the energies of the drow'' by making them focus their efforts on all those who may be an obstacle to her influence. That's why the Drizzt hate/focus seems to be quite exaggerated to me. But then, I haven't read the books, so take this with a grain of salt.
About Liriel, IIRC she achieved something *big*, she made drow magic work on the surface, and she refused Lolth's gift, despite being her chose. Definitely not just another drow. Lolth could be interested in her just for that, tbf. What has Drizzt done to affect the lives of the drow on a large scale (this is a honest question, as I said, I haven't kept up with his series)?
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 07 Sep 2015 14:56:27 |
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Veritas
Learned Scribe
209 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2015 : 15:18:03
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Drow magic probably already works on the surface and has since 3e. I believe they even covered it in one of the novel series.
That aside, Liriel's accomplishments with the Windwalker was not made known to Menzo. In short, the drow don't really know anything about Liriel, what she has accomplished, or even whether she is alive. Liriel has not involved herself in anything related to Menzoberranzan since she left the city as far as we can tell.
I may not have made it clear earlier but the reputation and importance of Drizzt was largely manufactured by Yvonnel Baenre as her casus belli for war on Mithril Hall. He was not important (and likely still isn't). However, he managed to turn the tables on her, damage one of Lolth's greatest shrines in Menzoberranzan, and slew one of the city's greatest weapon masters. He also slew the drow who is the current sitting matron mother of the first house. These are not just a "few nobles", they are closer to drow royalty. Moreover, when Yvonnel the Eternal indicates that Lolth demands Drizzt's death (regardless of whether Lolth cares or not), and Drizzt completely thwarts her, the city will take notice.
Regarding Lolth, as a goddess of chaos, she has always been depicted as working by pitting her minions against each other. There were only a few rare cases in exceptional circumstances where she overtly commanded her minions to act in a unified manner or at least give the appearance of doing so. Lolth was more than content to let her drow fail to take Mithral Hall since it would create further chaos. She sets people up to knock them down, all while letting them THINK that they're following her divine mandate.
She also works subtly. For example, in Archmage, she could have just given the magic to Gromph and Kimmuriel and commanded them to work the spell to free the demon lords. Gromph and Kimmuriel would surely comply with a directive straight from the goddess. Instead she went to the trouble of arranging an elaborate deception to achieve the same ends.
If she wanted the drow to conquer surface realms, she could simply have commanded them to do so. Why does the svirfneblin realm of Blingdenstone survive? She could easily have had the drow march out in force and whipe it off the map. She wants the drow occupied with enemies internal and external because it creates chaos. Lolth doesn't really care all that much for what the drow do. Even Jarlaxle hinted in Archmage that from his perspective, Lolth probably doesn't pay much attention to anyone except for the ruler of the first house. Her ambitions have generally been depicted as increasing her divine power, fostering chaos, and expanding her planar domain. Unleashing one of the greatest demon lords in the heart of her greatest city on Toril says quite a bit about her lack of interest in her followers.
Regarding Vhaerun and Eilistrae, we have perhaps a novel involving drow post sundering? Lolth hasn't been represented as concerning herself overly much with Vhaerun or Eilistraee in previous editions. When she actually did put some attention to it, she managed to get both of them slain. I don't think their re-emergence is particularly important to her, and she's been involved with other heavy stuff in the interim. She tried to usurp he weave, had some degree of complicity with Tiamat, and now looks like she's out to greatly expand her abyssal domain, perhaps make a play for the entire plane itself. Even if Vhaerun and Eilistraee's re-emergence was a problem for her, they had little to no presence in Menzoberranzan itself and considering the harsh indoctrination of the city, most Menzoberranyr drow probably are unaware that other drow deities exist.
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Edited by - Veritas on 07 Sep 2015 15:39:11 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2015 : 15:47:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Veritas
Drow magic probably already works on the surface and has since 3e. I believe they even covered it in one of the novel series.
That aside, Liriel's accomplishments with the Windwalker was not made known to Menzo.
Yes, drow magic was made to work on the surface by Liriel. Lolth could be interested in her, not to make magic work, as it already does, but because Liriel achieved something great (and because she invested power in the drow girl).
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I may not have made it clear earlier but the reputation and importance of Drizzt was largely manufactured by Yvonnel Baenre as her casus belli for war on Mithril Hall. He was not important (and likely still isn't). However, he managed to turn the tables on her, damage one of Lolth's greatest shrines in Menzoberranzan, and slew one of the city's greatest weapon masters. He also slew the drow who is the current sitting matron mother of the first house. These are not just a "few nobles", they are closer to drow royalty.
Yes, I see. I was aware of that, in my mind I didn't see it worth all that hate/focus on the drow side. Killing a matron or ''royalty'' doesn't get you hated among lolthite drow (at least probably not more than you already are), as they don't care for each other and rejoice in each other's deaths. Quenthel, however, I might see her wanting revenge, and -by extension- the Baenre. I still can't picture other houses spending resources to go after him, though (unless it brought them Lolth's favor. But then, this brings us back to my point: if Lolth wanted to influence the drow in this way, why only Drizzt, with many drow rejecting Lolth or turning to other deities?)
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Regarding Lolth, as a goddess of chaos, she has always been depicted as working by pitting her minions against each other. There were only a few rare cases in exceptional circumstances where she overtly commanded her minions to act in a unified manner or at least give the appearance of doing so. Lolth was more than content to let her drow fail to take Mithral Hall since it would create further chaos. She works subtly. For example, In Archmage, she could have just given the magic to Gromph and commanded him to work the spell to free the demon lords. Gromph would surely comply with a directive straight from the goddess. Instead she went to the trouble of arranging an elaborate deception to achieve the same ends.
If she wanted the drow to conquer surface realms, she could simply have commanded them to do so. Why does the svirfneblin realm of Blingenstone survive? She could easily have had the drow march out in force and whipe it off the map. She wants the drow occupied with enemies internal and external because it creates chaos. Lolth doesn't really care all that much for what the drow do. Even Jarlaxle hinted in Archmage that from his perspective, Lolth probably doesn't pay much attention to anyone except for the ruler of the first house. Her ambitions have generally been depicted as increasing her divine power, fostering chaos, and expanding her planar domain. Unleashing one of the greatest demon lords in the heart of her greatest city on Toril says quite a bit about her lack of interest in her followers.
Yeah, the fact that Lolth acts with complete disregard for her followers is true. But she is extremely sensitive to her influence/domain being contested, which brings us to Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, and why I think that they are not non-factors to their mother.
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Regarding Vhaerun and Eilistrae, we have perhaps a novel involving drow post sundering? Lolth hasn't been represented as concerning herself overly much with Vhaerun or Eilistraee in previous editions. When she actually did put some attention to it, she managed to get both of them slain. I don't think their re-emergence is particularly important to her, and she's been involved with other heavy stuff in the interim. She tried to usurp he weave, had some degree of complicity with Tiamat, and now looks like she's out to greatly expand her abyssal domain, perhaps make a play for the entire plane itself. Even if Vhaerun and Eilistraee's re-emergence was a problem for her, they had little to no presence in Menzoberranzan itself and considering the harsh indoctrination of the city, most Menzoberranyr drow probably are unaware that other drow deities exist.
Menzoberranzan isn't the only drow city (and AFAIK it's far from being the largest, or greatest. It's just the most zealous). Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, especially if we assume that they could be working together, have a relevant and non neglectable influence on the drow. They can and have brought many of them to forsake Lolth and oppose her. Their ideas expose the flaws in Lolth's brainwashing and show that a different life exists. Their follower base, if combined, is a relevant part of the drow. One would think that Lolth would want to avoid that coming up again. But you're right, we haven't got a novel, or book, or article covering the drow, even if we have got some insight on Lolth's plans with RAS' work, and her apparently being indifferent to her children's return feels weird.
Also, on a side note, to be fair, Lolth did very little to get rid of her children. For some reason, one after the other, every deity of the drow pantheon, out of their own voliton (not tricked by Lolth), went against Eilistraee (and that was even out of character for Vhaeraun, to prioritize her sister over Lolth). Then you had that final scene (in which, again, Lolth did basically nothing) and in which the Masked Lady could have very well survived. Either way, the actions of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun brought many drow away from her (a minority, sure, but still a non neglectable number) and they can do this again, now that they are back. It would be foolish of Lolth to ignore that. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 07 Sep 2015 16:05:01 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2015 : 17:08:52
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Just finished the book last night. I didn't read through this entire thread, but here are my thoughts.
I actually like that Lolth was a character, especially since RAS tends to stay away from the gods. I like that he actually invovled one for a change. It was nice to see. I know a lot of people are tired of the gods being involved, and I am one of the few that disagree with that. I actually like when the gods are characters. This doesn't mean I want them to be the center of the story, but it's fun to see them now and then. It's not as though Lolth was a main character. It's the Realms, after all, and the gods are part of the setting. Putting them as a minor character doesn't change the story for me. The mortals are still center stage, and it's still about them dealing with the gods' actions, so it really isn't that big of a deal for me. If you're going to bring in big powerful demons, you might as well bring in the gods, too.
Overall, I liked the book. Wulfgar annoys me with his lusty, carefree attitude, but I have never been a huge Wulfgar fan, anyway. I didn't mind Bruenor falling for the sisters, though I did think it a bit out of character for him. I agree with earlier statements that there should be more gay characters featured with their partners. I would love to see a male-male relationship in the Realms (I read a lot of boys love manga, what can I say). I think most drow are "bi". Females have sex with males mainly for dominating and breeding purposes. Granted they use it for dominating other females too, but being as they see females as superior, it would make sense they would want to have sex with someone who wouldn't "dirty" them. By the same token, many males have probably turned to each other for sexual pleasure, because constantly being dominated and demeaned by females in the bedroom would get old. Drow are fairly free with their sexuality. I wouldn't be surprised if Jarlaxle is bi, but we've only seen him with females, likely because of the whole "taboo" of non-hetero relationships in our society.
Drizzt was severely injured and out for about a quarter of the book, which bothered me. It's like they stuck the Drizzt label on the book and put Drizzt in it just so they could call it the latest Drizzt book and it would sell, when Drizzt himself didn't have much screen time.
Overall it was a decent read, but I am hungry for any Realms novel at this point. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 07 Sep 2015 17:29:26 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2015 : 17:12:21
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| Oh, I also thought the coming of the demons was a bit...sudden. Quenethel gets this idea, and then there are suddenly demons in Menzo. There was very little leading up to it. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Veritas
Learned Scribe
209 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2015 : 17:39:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Yes, drow magic was made to work on the surface by Liriel. Lolth could be interested in her, not to make magic work, as it already does, but because Liriel achieved something great (and because she invested power in the drow girl).
That is all valid. I just feel that Lolth hasn't proven herself to be particularly interested in accomplished mortals unless they're useful to some larger scheme. Gromph feels that he is mistreated, despite his status, and Lolth didn't do anything to dissuade his misery, instead capitalizing on it to enact her scheme in Archmage. Considering his personal power and intellect, he's probably far more competent than most of her clergy. She was happy to send Yvonnel Baenre to her death, arguably her most powerful servant who channeled Lolth's power directly. Lolth is more than happy to throw out her toys when she gets bored. I don't think, without author fiat, that Liriel is a blip on Lolth's radar if she is even still alive.
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Yes, I see. I was aware of that, in my mind I didn't see it worth all that hate/focus on the drow side. Killing a matron or ''royalty'' doesn't get you hated among lolthite drow (at least probably not more than you already are), as they don't care for each other and rejoice in each other's deaths. Quenthel, however, I might see her wanting revenge, and -by extension- the Baenre. I still can't picture other houses spending resources to go after him, though (unless it brought them Lolth's favor. But then, this brings us back to my point: if Lolth wanted to influence the drow in this way, why only Drizzt, with many drow rejecting Lolth or turning to other deities?)
The drow have the pretense of order and civility in their society. The Menzoberranyr "hate" Drizzt (the ones who care at least) not for what he did to the Baenre's personally but because they believe that Lolth demands his death and his actions are a slap in the Spider Queen's face. I do not doubt that the bulk of the city rejoiced at House Baenre getting taken down a peg or two, but vocalizing that publoicly could, to their mind, draw the disfavor of Lolth.
Most of the drow that we see lately don't hate Drizzt. They lust after the prestige they would get for killing him. Not only do they get renown for killing this legendary enemy but they think they may get in the good graces of Lolth and Baenre to boot.
Moreover, if a the Drizzt slayer is a warrior, he catapults himself as being the equal if not superior of past legendary weapon masters of the city. Zaknafein had a degree of respect and standing in the city because he was considered to be the best, or among the best weapon masters of his time, rivalled by Dantrag Baenre and Uthegental Armgo. Drizzt is believed to be Zaknafein's equal and bested Dantrag Baenre.
As for why only Drizzt, its because he's the most notorious outlaw from Menzoberranzan and the drow of Menzoberannzan have been depicted outright to see their city as the center of their world. For those who are even aware of Eilistraee and Vhaerun, they have little to no presence in Menzoberanzan and are a problem for other places. You are entirely right when you point out that Menzo is not the largest drow city but it is the citadel of Lolth's faithful.
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Yeah, the fact that Lolth acts with complete disregard for her followers is true. But she is extremely sensitive to her influence/domain being contested, which brings us to Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, and why I think that they are not non-factors to their mother.
Considering the only word we've gotten on Eilistraee is that she was tucked away in the weave and has only recently been manifesting herself to her followers, it could be that the word hasn't gone out yet that she (and Vhaerun) are back in town. That may explain why the drow we have seen so far haven't commented on it. It may just also just mean that Lolth's current agenda is more important to her than the minor drow deities re-appearing.
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Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, especially if we assume that they could be working together, have a relevant and non neglectable influence on the drow. They can and have brought many of them to forsake Lolth and oppose her. Their ideas expose the flaws in Lolth's brainwashing and show that a different life exists. Their follower base, if combined, is a relevant part of the drow. One would think that Lolth would want to avoid that coming up again. But you're right, we haven't got a novel, or book, or article covering the drow, even if we have got some insight on Lolth's plans with RAS' work, and her apparently being indifferent to her children's return feels weird.
Also, on a side note, to be fair, Lolth did very little to get rid of her children. For some reason, one after the other, every deity of the drow pantheon, out of their own voliton (not tricked by Lolth), went against Eilistraee (and that was even out of character for Vhaeraun, to prioritize her sister over Lolth). Then you had that final scene (in which, again, Lolth did basically nothing) and in which the Masked Lady could have very well survived. Either way, the actions of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun brought many drow away from her (a minority, sure, but still a non neglectable number) and they can do this again, now that they are back. It would be foolish of Lolth to ignore that.
Since Lolth is master of intrigue and weaver of webs in more than the physical sense, she probably has stuff in the works that we haven't seen. I still maintain though that we just don't have enough content out there yet to accurately determine whether WotC wont have Lolth address the issue.
With respect to Lolth's "inaction", I felt that it was strongly implied in that novel chain that Lolth had somehow orchestrated those events to happen, even when seeming not directly involved. There was even a heavy handed reference to a sava board if I recall correctly where Lolth seemingly swept the table until Corellon appeared as her next challenger.
In any event, I agree that Vhaerun and Eilistraee returning should provoke some sort of reaction from Lolth. It would be nice to see it in print, but likely we're going to have to infer it.
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Edited by - Veritas on 07 Sep 2015 17:41:49 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2015 : 17:45:03
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| I too would like to see E and V appear in print. It'd be awesome if they were actually featured as minor characters, but I am surprised RAS even featured Lolth, so it might be asking too much. But another author could always take it up, too. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Xelbon Lu nrae
Acolyte
2 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2015 : 22:22:26
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Hi guys,
First post for me. There are a few things referenced in the book that I don't know where to find info on, nor do I really want to read multiple novels of other authors to figure out.
Plainly put:
1) when/how was it announced that the other Drow gods/goddesses were back?
2) when/how did we gain insight that Lolth failed to take over the Weave? Who controls magic now?
If there are some links/cliff notes/wiki topics on this info I'd appreciate it. Otherwise if it is all found in a Greenwood novel, a summary would be great. Hell, maybe I missed it in a previous Salvatore book......
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2015 : 22:26:51
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| There was a reference to Eilistraee in the latest Greenwood novel, and in the Adversary, there was a drow follower of Vhaeraun, though the name of his god was never actually stated, it was pretty obvious. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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First thoughts on Salvatore's Archmage
