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Roseweave
Learned Scribe

Ireland
212 Posts

Posted - 27 Aug 2015 :  22:05:43  Show Profile  Visit Roseweave's Homepage Send Roseweave a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I've been reading up more on this and have had a lot of thoughts in how they're depicted.

First off, Zakhara is pretty vast, so like the real Middle East it would make a sense for there to be a lot of Ethnic groups. Given Calimshan was populated by people randomly plucked from across Zakhara by the Djinn, it seems to be there are likely a lot of human ethnic groups there, in a relatively small country(compared to Zakhara). This doesn't seem to be something that's touched on much(that level of world building is difficult regardless).

The real world "Middle East" contains many different cultures; from Egypt to Iran. While it's the most common ethnic group(and quite a broad one in of itself) "Arab" is not the only ethnic group.

In the Al Qadim sources it seems to touch on the idea that Zakhara is a "melting pot" but pushes the idea that there is a degree of harmony among the races(as long as they're native to the land and "enlightened") which I suppose makes it come across as a more idealised albiet snobbish version of the real middle east.

While Kara-Tur seems fairly reasonably divided into rough real world proxies of the Far East, I'm not sure Al Qadim makes the same distinctions. Of course it's always going to be difficult to do this accurately, especially without literally copy/pasting the real world middle east but it would be nice to see some clear cut distinctions.

Our GM was thinking of using Calimshan as a Persia/Iran sort of proxy but it doesn't really work like that. It's language seems to be closely related to Midani(and both seem to be represented by a very Arabic-like language), coming from the elemental planes, as opposed to having a language related to an Indo-European proxy(Ruamathari?)

I'm always wary of course of westerners approaching fantasy versions of other cultures, but the problem if you don't do it is that you're left with just yet more fantasy europe. So I'm really interested in a version of Al-Qadim, Calminshan etc. that is "realistic" - but "realistic" to a fantasy version of the Muslim world/middle east rather than just a copy and paste. It's hard to do but I think it can be done with some tweaking. I think Wizards took the easy route by nuking Mulhollorand, Maztica, Unther etc. instead of just getting in consultants and designers from different cultures to help out.

Firestorm
Senior Scribe

Canada
826 Posts

Posted - 27 Aug 2015 :  22:34:44  Show Profile Send Firestorm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Roseweave

I've been reading up more on this and have had a lot of thoughts in how they're depicted.

First off, Zakhara is pretty vast, so like the real Middle East it would make a sense for there to be a lot of Ethnic groups. Given Calimshan was populated by people randomly plucked from across Zakhara by the Djinn, it seems to be there are likely a lot of human ethnic groups there, in a relatively small country(compared to Zakhara). This doesn't seem to be something that's touched on much(that level of world building is difficult regardless).

The real world "Middle East" contains many different cultures; from Egypt to Iran. While it's the most common ethnic group(and quite a broad one in of itself) "Arab" is not the only ethnic group.

In the Al Qadim sources it seems to touch on the idea that Zakhara is a "melting pot" but pushes the idea that there is a degree of harmony among the races(as long as they're native to the land and "enlightened") which I suppose makes it come across as a more idealised albiet snobbish version of the real middle east.

While Kara-Tur seems fairly reasonably divided into rough real world proxies of the Far East, I'm not sure Al Qadim makes the same distinctions. Of course it's always going to be difficult to do this accurately, especially without literally copy/pasting the real world middle east but it would be nice to see some clear cut distinctions.

Our GM was thinking of using Calimshan as a Persia/Iran sort of proxy but it doesn't really work like that. It's language seems to be closely related to Midani(and both seem to be represented by a very Arabic-like language), coming from the elemental planes, as opposed to having a language related to an Indo-European proxy(Ruamathari?)

I'm always wary of course of westerners approaching fantasy versions of other cultures, but the problem if you don't do it is that you're left with just yet more fantasy europe. So I'm really interested in a version of Al-Qadim, Calminshan etc. that is "realistic" - but "realistic" to a fantasy version of the Muslim world/middle east rather than just a copy and paste. It's hard to do but I think it can be done with some tweaking. I think Wizards took the easy route by nuking Mulhollorand, Maztica, Unther etc. instead of just getting in consultants and designers from different cultures to help out.


If you count Egypt among the middle east....

Egypt and ancient egyptian gods have(had) their own proxies in the realms. One of my favorite 2nd Edition settings to be honest lol.

Mulhorandi Pantheon

Back when "The southern lands" were dreaded for their unique and strange magic!

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Roseweave
Learned Scribe

Ireland
212 Posts

Posted - 28 Aug 2015 :  00:56:55  Show Profile  Visit Roseweave's Homepage Send Roseweave a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I mentioned it towards the end of my post :)

Is there anywhere that would be an equivalent of Persia though? Struggling to find one.
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe

USA
830 Posts

Posted - 28 Aug 2015 :  02:58:20  Show Profile Send Dark Wizard a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If I recall, it was either Murghom or Semphar that had a pasha. The other had a bey (again if memory hasn't failed me). Those would be the logical locations for a Persia (and another version of the Turks, which fits with the real world as they are a far and wide ranging group).
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 28 Aug 2015 :  05:09:56  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Semphar has a Caliph, but it is definitely FR's 'Persia' (minus the 'being a world power' thing).

It was calimshan that had pashas ('Pasha Pook').

The Bey may have been Murghôm - sounds about right (too lazy to look it up ATM).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 28 Aug 2015 15:33:14
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe

USA
830 Posts

Posted - 28 Aug 2015 :  05:45:04  Show Profile Send Dark Wizard a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That would be it.
Semphar was even conquered by a son of Yamun Khahan for the Tuigan Horde (aka Mongols), so that's also that angle.
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MrHedgehog
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688 Posts

Posted - 28 Aug 2015 :  08:53:48  Show Profile  Visit MrHedgehog's Homepage Send MrHedgehog a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Ancient Egypt is definitely not the same as modern Egypt. Over the eons of migration, conquest, wars, etc... Arabs are the majority in most of the middle east now but were not the original residents. (Assyrians in Syria, Copts in Egypt, were displaced etc.)
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 28 Aug 2015 :  15:37:20  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard

That would be it.
Semphar was even conquered by a son of Yamun Khahan for the Tuigan Horde (aka Mongols), so that's also that angle.

Semphar has been part of Mulhorand, Shou-Lung, and the Tuigan Empire... its one of the most conquered nations on Toril. In fact, I am pretty sure its been part of more then one at the same time.

However, its almost always given semi-autonomoous status. The Caliph just pays his 'tribute' (taxes, whatever) and keeps on running things. I think that's the main reason Semphar remains 'pristine' through the milenia, despite being in a highly volatile region.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 28 Aug 2015 :  21:30:15  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Roseweave

I'm always wary of course of westerners approaching fantasy versions of other cultures, but the problem if you don't do it is that you're left with just yet more fantasy europe ... I think Wizards took the easy route by nuking Mulhollorand, Maztica, Unther etc. instead of just getting in consultants and designers from different cultures to help out.
Not sure which particular ethnicities WotC's staff may (or may not) be able to pool together, so this may not be an entirely fair statement. In the final analysis, "easy" might equate to "lower costs" - always a make-or-break imperative within the RPG publishing business, if an experimental project costs too much and risks too much then it'll be aborted. Consider that WotC's market and target audience has traditionally been largely "fantasy European", perhaps because formative influences like Tolkein hadn't yet caught on much in other cultures. There is always risk with "exotic" new settings, even if they're ripoffs of not-so-exotic real-world settings. Al-Qadim might have been appended to the Realms but was essentially an entirely standalone campaign setting, and we've seen quite a few other adjunct-to-the-Realms D&D settings fail before.

I do agree that Al-Qadim seems to have survived the test of time and retained enough popularity to merit further work. WotC might indeed do well by hiring Arab consultants to rework their "Arabian" Realms. But again, if their primary market is unfamiliar (perhaps even disinterested) in Arab culture then it's just not a smart investment. Not to derail this scroll, but I suspect some degree of anti-Islamic political/religious/cultural prejudice might be involved, whether it's a real factor or just expected to be one by Wizbro's executives.

It seems to me that WotC should feel out potential interest (and profitability) of a new-Qadim which richly represents an "accurate" Arabian culture. Perhaps by submitting some short stories and web articles? Might you be willing to volunteer in this, lol?

[/Ayrik]
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1621 Posts

Posted - 31 Aug 2015 :  15:39:49  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've read that Calimshan was influenced by Turkey.
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1621 Posts

Posted - 31 Aug 2015 :  16:00:39  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd actually say get a group of middle eastern (not just Arab, other groups such as Persians, Yazidis, ect...) developers to do Al-Qadim and for Kara Tur farm it out to say a Japanese RPG company.
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 31 Aug 2015 :  17:08:10  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, Semphar has a long history of being subjugated, it was first part of the Imaskari Empire.

Calimshan is a bizarre beast. It's a mix of many elements, starting out as somewhat al-Andalus, with elements of Ancient Arabia and Canaan(With Brass Idol of Bhaelros, for Example), but later got elements of the Byzantine and Ottoman Empires.
Due to it's share age, Calimshan resembles somewhat Caananite countries, and their later form, Phoenicia. The earliest Canaanite settlement, Jericho, was founded 9000 B.C., and Phoenicia occupied territories roughly similar to Calimshan.

But I see Imaskar as maybe somewhat the Realms version of Mu/Lemuria.
Mu was said to be precursors of Sumerian, Ancient Egyptians, Indus civilization, Mayans, Incans, Aztecs, Turks, Mongols, Tibetans, Ancient China, and sometimes even Atlantis(with Lantan being Atlantis).

Imaskar is canonically, the precursor to Unther(Babylon/Akkad/Sumer), Mulhorand(Egypt), Solon(India), Var(India), possibly Utter East(India), Semphar(Persia, with elements of Mesopotamia, but after the fall of Babylonians, explaining the constant subjugation), Thay(somewhat Turkish, actually seems more mix of various Anatolian countries and Egypt. Ed himself said that Thay is a mix of many Oriental elements), Durpar(India and Afganistan with strong Semitic Elements), Raumathar(Iranian tribes, like Sarmates and Scythians, along with proto-Slaves), Shou Lung(China), Tuigan Tribes(Mongol and minor Turkish), Murghom(Turks and Semitic people), Ra-Khati(Tibet and Nepal) and possibly Lantan(Atlantis). It's also possible Imaskari had some connection to Maztica and especially the lands soutth of it - Lapongo(which is Inca-like), as many Imaskari names have a Quechuan etymology(Like Ususi), which was the language of Incas.

Of course, many may disagree to my connections of those Realmsian countries and cultures to real world counterpart, and indeed, I'm rather generalising here, to show Imaskar has indeed some parallels to Mu, intentional or not.

Lemuria(often identical with Mu) in Mighty Max, had advanced knowledge of portals, so I wonder if one could say they were a Imaskari survivor state, or colony.

Edited by - Baltas on 31 Aug 2015 17:13:48
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
1280 Posts

Posted - 31 Aug 2015 :  18:39:43  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If future FR products can give me some in-depth insight of a different cultures myths focused through Toril's Lens of Awesome I heartily encourage that.

Accurately described landscapes, 'in character' related (ghost) stories, exotic weapon masteries (and mysteries), eerily complex magic users and loads and loads more can be introduced into the realms if done with earths cross cultural mythological history in mind. So I would definitely would love to see Al-Qadim, Kara-Tur and Maztica revisited. I don't care were WotC gets their experts, as long as they can bring some refreshing perspectives for me to ponder over and plunder for my games, both as a story focused player or DM seeking inspiration.


W00tw00t, I hit my 1000th post on my birthday! And on subject I actually care allot about aswell! Thanks Roseweave for bringing it up.

And thank you all for keeping this place so awesome over all these years.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 31 Aug 2015 :  19:03:17  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
YOUR birthday is just one day after mine?

Happy Birthday! All hail us Virgos!

And grats on the milenial post.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
1280 Posts

Posted - 31 Aug 2015 :  19:27:44  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Fist time I had a thunderstorm. Loving the day already, so many bizarrely awesome gifts.

I'll preemptively reciprocate the congrats then!

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Druidic Groves

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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2015 :  02:06:36  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Gratulations on 100th post Bladewind, and Happy Birthday!
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe

Ireland
212 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2015 :  23:13:10  Show Profile  Visit Roseweave's Homepage Send Roseweave a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It doesn't really cost "more" to hire people from different cultures. If you just go on tumblr you can find a lot of passionate fans of almost anything of almost any ethnicity. I know tons of nerdy Muslim girls and people of Muslim extraction who'd jump at the chance to polish up Al-Qadim/Calimshan/Semphar et. all. It's really a matter of will, and even if their focus was on people seeking the fantasy europe experience, clearly Al-Qadim has been popular enough to keep people's attention, so why not do it right? That way you might attract more people from different cultures too. It's actually a fantastic way of avoiding stagnancies, as well as making it more accurate given medieval europe had a lot of travel from the middle & far east and africa.
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
1280 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2015 :  19:41:46  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Their work needs to be polished and comparable in quality to our current 'lore standards' to be printed, though.

The way the class kits were presented in the Land of Fate players supplement was excellent though; the class stories already lept from the pages. A few experts on muslim culture might be able to give added perspective into these.

Reshuffling some kits into backgrounds, class archetypes and features, feats and/or a new class or two can all be done by someone with some insight into the 5th editions game design, so that could be done by anyone.

I might try my hand at converting some of the classes in the old Al-Qadim settingbook to 5e mechanics if I can get a hold on a copy later this weekend. Really want to give Al-Qadim another run sometime soon.

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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2015 :  02:45:02  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The old 2E Al-Qadim stuff impressed me at first. I enjoyed being immersed right away into psuedo-Arabian culture, cultured maleficent djinns, haggling with relentless merchants, crazy scimitar-wielding desert warriors.

But it didn't take long to realize it wasn't Arab, it was Disney. Everything began to feel like a scene from Alladin, less about a real culture, more about cartoony stereotypes from a decidedly unreal culture. I had one player (an Iraqi Kurd) shrug WotC's presentation off as mildly insulting yet entirely expected, "a typically childish Western foreigner" sort of thing - he tolerated a few sessions but abandoned the campaign until we switched to another setting. Another player could never differentiate between Anauroch Bedine and random Zakharan desert folk, no matter how patiently we attempted to explain things.

Some of this societal preconception might be unavoidable. But much of it, I think, can indeed be avoided.

But it might be better to ask how similar to our Arabia do we want Al-Qadim to be? It is, after all, a fantasy region in a fantasy world.

[/Ayrik]
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2015 :  04:38:20  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

The old 2E Al-Qadim stuff impressed me at first. I enjoyed being immersed right away into psuedo-Arabian culture, cultured maleficent djinns, haggling with relentless merchants, crazy scimitar-wielding desert warriors.

But it didn't take long to realize it wasn't Arab, it was Disney. Everything began to feel like a scene from Alladin, less about a real culture, more about cartoony stereotypes from a decidedly unreal culture. I had one player (an Iraqi Kurd) shrug WotC's presentation off as mildly insulting yet entirely expected, "a typically childish Western foreigner" sort of thing - he tolerated a few sessions but abandoned the campaign until we switched to another setting. Another player could never differentiate between Anauroch Bedine and random Zakharan desert folk, no matter how patiently we attempted to explain things.

Some of this societal preconception might be unavoidable. But much of it, I think, can indeed be avoided.

But it might be better to ask how similar to our Arabia do we want Al-Qadim to be? It is, after all, a fantasy region in a fantasy world.



Didn't it establish, in one of the very first Al-Qadim books, that they were going more for the Hollywood version of Arabia, rather than a fantasy overlay of the real world?

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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe

USA
830 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2015 :  05:10:46  Show Profile Send Dark Wizard a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

But it didn't take long to realize it wasn't Arab, it was Disney. Everything began to feel like a scene from Alladin, less about a real culture, more about cartoony stereotypes from a decidedly unreal culture. I had one player (an Iraqi Kurd) shrug WotC's presentation off as mildly insulting yet entirely expected, "a typically childish Western foreigner" sort of thing - he tolerated a few sessions but abandoned the campaign until we switched to another setting. Another player could never differentiate between Anauroch Bedine and random Zakharan desert folk, no matter how patiently we attempted to explain things.

The same could be said about most gaming settings, even the Western European proxies. We're just more inoculated to the stereotypes and there are likely fewer vocal Westerners who take offense to caricatures of their heritage (for a variety of reasons, not a qualitative statement).

Every few years, some group objects to fantasy depictions of their religion. We may treat it as mythology, but for them it is an active and holy religion. It's not isolated to the Eastern or African religious devotees, but also Christians and Wiccans at various points (and again not limited to them, this is not about pointing groups out).

Also, I've heard that the Disney cartoon show based on the Aladdin movies were very popular in parts of the Mid-East during their run in the '90s and early '00s. Different strokes for different folks.

In general, the Disney take on stories are noted for being watered down, sanitized fairy tales but they maintain their popularity. Sometimes it's not about presenting something accurately or faithfully, but just presenting a fun story with beautiful visuals.

Just as most fantasy games aren't meant to be true representations of real world cultures. Do we think real life druids and the inspiration for paladins are remotely similar to their D&D representations? Not even close.

quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Some of this societal preconception might be unavoidable. But much of it, I think, can indeed be avoided.

But it might be better to ask how similar to our Arabia do we want Al-Qadim to be? It is, after all, a fantasy region in a fantasy world.


I think hiring designers based on ethnic heritage or culture to match the intended setting's motif would be a mistake, at least if expecting that to automatically providing a superior representation of the culture.

Sword & Sorcery fantasy has distinctly American* roots and is a very hodgepodge mashup. This is very different from writers of other cultures who have always lived in a place with an established cultural mythology.

Take wuxia writers for example. They don't set their stories in some facsimile of ancient China, they use actual historical China, down to specific dynasties and eras with the pre-established figures and events as a background. Use of secondary worlds, such as in some manga/anime or more modern media, is generally a more recent trend.

* Arguably, even Tolkien with his English roots created Middle-Earth, in part to show, what he thought a prehistoric, pre-Christian English national epic would resemble (like the Finland has the Kalevala, the Nordic countries have the Prose Edda and others, India has the Ramayana, etc.). Then the major inspirations for modern fantasy games have a tradition of fusion and cultural syncretism.

Would we get a "better" setting using ethnic designers? Maybe, hard to generalize.

We could simply be trading one set of biases for another skewed towards the author's own perspective. It is evident peoples of all regions can be biased towards their neighbors. There is no guarantee their works will 'read true'. The Middle East (or other regions) are not innocent in this regard in terms of some of the propaganda and their stereotypes versus the West and other countries (same for other regions). No one is perfect based on their background alone and no one is unbiased just because they belong to a fairly narrow portion of a very broad group.

Designers should try to do better in representing a variety of cultures, but it does not mean they must be born of that culture to represent it well in a fantasy medium. Nor should designers be slaves to history as even historical fiction on the face of being fiction is taking some liberties with history.

An example could be found in professor M.A.R. Barker and his Tekumel setting. He was someone not born to the cultures and languages he studied, but made compelling depictions of them through a distinctly fantasy lens using their traditions as inspiration and not a simple mold. He even decided to start from a clean slate using a sci-fi origin.

Recently I read an article about Chinese animated filmmakers scratching their heads on why Kung Fu Panda (an American film) was such a blockbuster in the Chinese market, while their natively developed Chinese offerings covering the same concepts were flops in their own market. I recall one of the Chinese filmmakers remarked the Americans took the styling familiar with the Chinese and spun a better, more emotional story, they found something that translated beyond a simple word-for-word transcript. This was not to say the Americans were better, but that some of the filmmakers had something to think over.

The reverse is true at times, martial arts films are popular here beyond their schlocky exposure and minimal representation here in the West. It goes beyond the spectacle of flashy fights. The genre often deals with a cathartic confrontation of the downtrodden versus a corrupted elite, it's often an underdog story. These things also translate to Western audiences beyond the poor dubbing.

Creating an interesting setting, whether typical Western fantasy or something drawing from a different source is a complicated matter and can't be parsed down to simply using writers of a particular group.
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TBeholder
Great Reader

2377 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2015 :  08:33:36  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert


Didn't it establish, in one of the very first Al-Qadim books, that they were going more for the Hollywood version of Arabia, rather than a fantasy overlay of the real world?

More of going for Arabian Nights before it was soaked in Disneycorp drool. There was even a quote about dealing with genies, IIRC.

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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore

Netherlands
1280 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2015 :  18:12:26  Show Profile Send Bladewind a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Disney did call their musical-like Aladdin animation a "Whole new world, with a new fantastic point of view".

I see little wrong with borrowing from a Disney movie, as most have nifty elements for a DM to steal. Aladdin had some awesome dungeon action scenes that might have been strait from a fantasy pulp novel (and it actually has indirectly stolen elements from Robert E. Howards Tower of the Elephant).

It would be less of a drag to play in a fantastical over a historically correct version of an arabian tale in any case. So in my view its just as important to give new 'western' spins on mythologies as it is to get the ambiance of a setting right, to get at a result that's more immersive at the gaming table.


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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1621 Posts

Posted - 07 Sep 2015 :  14:25:50  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Interestingly Aladdin was Chinese, not Arab at all, the writers were likely Arab, they got alot of details wrong about China, but Aladdin was Chinese, so was the Princess who wasn't Arab either, she was a Chinese Princess.
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1864 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2015 :  23:14:19  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

Interestingly Aladdin was Chinese, not Arab at all, the writers were likely Arab, they got alot of details wrong about China, but Aladdin was Chinese, so was the Princess who wasn't Arab either, she was a Chinese Princess.


Well, 'Chinese' in the same sense as Luke Skywalker or Han Solo from another galaxy, a long time ago. Culturally, the story is Arabian and 'Chinese' is just a way of setting the action far, far away in a land no one knows much about.

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SaMoCon
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USA
403 Posts

Posted - 19 Sep 2015 :  06:42:10  Show Profile Send SaMoCon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Actually, I have a question regarding this thread that is open to anyone to answer, not just the OP. How can anything in the Forgotten Realms have a Muslim proxy? That would be like requesting a Judeo or a Christian proxy. A monotheic religion, and the practices that allow a single-god faith to flourish, cannot withstand the very real presence of a multitude of gods and horrific beings that are stronger than the gods. So how can there be a Muslim equivalent if the very forces and events that propelled Islam in the real world are either absent or run counter to the progress of an equivalent to Islam in the Forgotten Realms?

Most of the Forgotten Realms religions do the things they do because there is a god walking about saying "Listen up, Mortal! This is how you properly worship me." And then these gods have specifically limited powers and stats. How well do you think that would be received by the pious worshippers of the Almighty to have a derivative of their god mocked up in a game and Nerfed in their diminished abilities to what is, for all intents and purposes, a pathetic mockery of their glory? I don't know about anyone else but that sounds patronizing to me and would seem like a PR nightmare for TSR/WotC. Also, wouldn't this unique setting have an equally unique way for the cultures to evolve in accordance with the conditions of the Forgotten Realms as opposed to having to shoe-horn in the real world equivalents?

Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for.
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Eltheron
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Posted - 19 Sep 2015 :  06:59:51  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon

Actually, I have a question regarding this thread that is open to anyone to answer, not just the OP. How can anything in the Forgotten Realms have a Muslim proxy? That would be like requesting a Judeo or a Christian proxy. A monotheic religion, and the practices that allow a single-god faith to flourish, cannot withstand the very real presence of a multitude of gods and horrific beings that are stronger than the gods. So how can there be a Muslim equivalent if the very forces and events that propelled Islam in the real world are either absent or run counter to the progress of an equivalent to Islam in the Forgotten Realms?

Most of the Forgotten Realms religions do the things they do because there is a god walking about saying "Listen up, Mortal! This is how you properly worship me." And then these gods have specifically limited powers and stats. How well do you think that would be received by the pious worshippers of the Almighty to have a derivative of their god mocked up in a game and Nerfed in their diminished abilities to what is, for all intents and purposes, a pathetic mockery of their glory? I don't know about anyone else but that sounds patronizing to me and would seem like a PR nightmare for TSR/WotC. Also, wouldn't this unique setting have an equally unique way for the cultures to evolve in accordance with the conditions of the Forgotten Realms as opposed to having to shoe-horn in the real world equivalents?


I was wondering the same things, actually. A true Muslim proxy would require Allah and the Qur'an, and just including that in a fantasy game would be seen as extremely offensive idolatry.

Unless the OP's DM wants pre-monotheistic Arabic culture(s), but then those wouldn't be Muslim.

Confusing, really.


"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer

Edited by - Eltheron on 19 Sep 2015 07:09:35
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Cyrinishad
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Posted - 20 Sep 2015 :  03:50:08  Show Profile Send Cyrinishad a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, in some ways Bane could be seen as a Christian proxy... he pretty much takes all of the negative characteristics of Dark-Ages/Inquisition style Christianity and plays that tune in a polytheistic environment. The first sentence of his dogma is "Serve no one but Bane", which is about as close as it gets to "Thou shalt have no other gods before me". Bane just decided that more than one commandment would dilute the message.

So, if you go that route with a Muslim proxy... Anyway, moving right along...

To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates

Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss

Edited by - Cyrinishad on 20 Sep 2015 03:54:32
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Eltheron
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Posted - 20 Sep 2015 :  07:59:42  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad

Well, in some ways Bane could be seen as a Christian proxy... he pretty much takes all of the negative characteristics of Dark-Ages/Inquisition style Christianity and plays that tune in a polytheistic environment. The first sentence of his dogma is "Serve no one but Bane", which is about as close as it gets to "Thou shalt have no other gods before me". Bane just decided that more than one commandment would dilute the message.

So, if you go that route with a Muslim proxy... Anyway, moving right along...


Hmm, I'm not sure about Bane. He would want to rule over other deities, but he's never claimed anything like he was the one and only.

Cyric, on the other hand, didn't he (maybe during his fit of madness) quite literally tell his followers that only he was a real god and all the others were false? I try to ignore the ToT deities, but I seem to recall something like that in one of the novels.


"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer
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Cyrinishad
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Posted - 21 Sep 2015 :  00:15:34  Show Profile Send Cyrinishad a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron

quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad

Well, in some ways Bane could be seen as a Christian proxy... he pretty much takes all of the negative characteristics of Dark-Ages/Inquisition style Christianity and plays that tune in a polytheistic environment. The first sentence of his dogma is "Serve no one but Bane", which is about as close as it gets to "Thou shalt have no other gods before me". Bane just decided that more than one commandment would dilute the message.

So, if you go that route with a Muslim proxy... Anyway, moving right along...


Hmm, I'm not sure about Bane. He would want to rule over other deities, but he's never claimed anything like he was the one and only.

Cyric, on the other hand, didn't he (maybe during his fit of madness) quite literally tell his followers that only he was a real god and all the others were false? I try to ignore the ToT deities, but I seem to recall something like that in one of the novels.





I know it's not an exact equivalency... and yes, Cyric did have that episode. But that was the result of him essentially cursing himself in order to become oblivious to a polytheistic reality.

With all of the stuff that's been thrown around about deities being aspects of other deities, and deities providing spells under the name of other deities, etc. There's definitely opportunity for a faction to develop that pushes the idea that all of the deities are simply aspects of singular divine power... That could have been one way to handle the return of the Imaskari, considering they've always been in conflict with the deities.

To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates

Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss
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Eltheron
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Posted - 21 Sep 2015 :  00:32:33  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad

I know it's not an exact equivalency... and yes, Cyric did have that episode. But that was the result of him essentially cursing himself in order to become oblivious to a polytheistic reality.

With all of the stuff that's been thrown around about deities being aspects of other deities, and deities providing spells under the name of other deities, etc. There's definitely opportunity for a faction to develop that pushes the idea that all of the deities are simply aspects of singular divine power... That could have been one way to handle the return of the Imaskari, considering they've always been in conflict with the deities.


Possibly, sure. I suppose AO also would've been another way to do a monotheistic variant, if AO hadn't forbidden worship of himself. And really it still could be, if a DM wants to utilize that for their own home-Realms campaign.

But I'm not sure that's really the point. To really and truly get a Muslim-oriented proxy, it really would require the themes, mores, and societal rules of an Allah and the dogmatic presence of a Qu'ran. Without those, an "arabic" culture would either be a variant of Zoroastrianism or one of the pre-duo-theistic Aryan tribes. And those were similar to Proto-Indo-European cultures. Or it'd be a kind of watered down Disney Aladdin-land, as others noted.

To truly be a Muslim proxy, I just don't think it's possible to get around needing Allah and the Qu'ran. And traditionalist Islamics would very likely find that to be offensive in the extreme. Jihads have been started over less.


"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer

Edited by - Eltheron on 21 Sep 2015 00:35:33
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