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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Aug 2015 : 16:55:27
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Well GK beat me too it, but yes, those adventures (which appear in the OGB) are the primary source of my comment about larvae. I had forgotten about the Ninemen spell though. This makes me wonder: Does consuming a single larvae last as long as casting that spell? I would think so (or maybe last even longer than the spell). This means that the lich's needs are minimal and it can study for quite a long time before needing to consume another one.
Now I'm wondering how long a larvae stays 'fresh' enough to consume. Can a lich procure a batch of pickled larvae and consume them as needed? Or do they spoil (i.e. lose their efficacy) in a short period of time? If the former, then the lich could purchase a batch and spend decades (or even centuries) in its studies before needing to interrupt them to traffic in souls again. If the latter, well then he needs to interact with hags or whatever more often.
My guess, based on the fact that it seems Azimer summons hags/demons fairly often to bring him larvae (it's happened more than once, and how long has Azimer been undead?), is that they don't last as long as the Nulathoe's Ninemen spell. It doesn't say how long, but 777 years seems a long time for just one larvae.
Once a soul is transformed by the Abyss (and perhaps the Hells also) and has become a larvae, I'd imagine it's fairly stable if they're used as currency.
And here's an interesting tidbit: in the original AD&D Monster Manual, it notes that liches use larvae in order to maintain their undead status and powers (under the entry for larvae). So it's part of the AD&D core.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2015 : 02:37:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
More of my Lich/Soul Cage lore...
Hoarcruxes:
It IS possible for a Lich (or other creatures capable of 'magic jarring' souls) to split their 'essence' (soul) into more then one piece. Such was the habit of the divine liches (mummies) created by pharonic priests (those Canopic Jars). In some settings these are known as 'Hoarcruxes, in others, 'soul jars' or 'soul cages'. It all amounts to the same thing. One can theoretically split one's soul into as many shards as they wish, based upon their personal power (one shard per level). In fact, this is the mechanism behind the (old school) level-draining undead. They are basically stealing a shard for themselves.
The upside to doing this is that you have more pieces to hide, and there for more ways to 'come back' after being killed. one must destroy every last shard to make sure death is complete. For example, the Lich Tan Chin was thought to be destroyed when the Ebony Atifacts were dealt with. However*, one of the artifacts was a counterfeit, and the Lich was able to return sometime after the heroes defeated him.
The downside is that with more pieces, there are more chances for people to find - and destroy - pieces of one's soul. Also, the ore times a soul is split, the weaker each piece becomes, and the easier to destroy. Strangely - through some 'cosmic mechanism', when one creates another Horacrux (soul shard stored in a item one has gained affinity with - usually a personal belonging or even body part), the other pieces all become 'weaker', no matter the distance away. In that way, the pieces all must be of equal value (life energy). It is said that some beings - including a few Uberliches - have figured out ways to separate differing amounts of energy into different vessels, but there is no proof of this, and most sages scoff at the notion (but not Elminster, who refuses to speak at all on the mater). Another downside is that if a person were to find one Horacrux, it would lead them to the others, one way or another. Powerful magic could be used to turn it into a type of 'spiritual compass', or just a series of seemingly random events would lead one to the other pieces (more of that 'cosmic mechanism' - the pieces are trying to get back together). It is for these reasons that liches - and others who like to hide their souls - tend to avoid this tactic. If a phylactory is viewed as a weakness, then having a dozen would be viewed as having a dozen weaknesses.
Using Soul Shards:
Pieces of a soul (or an entire soul, in the case of larvae and manes) can be used to create magical artifacts, most especially self-aware ones. Sometimes this happens by accident, when a age puts too much of his/her life energy into a magical item, but most often it is done with purpose. A third mechanism is when a soul becomes attached to an existing item - this is how 'Legacy items' are created (sometimes amusingly referred to by scholars as 'accidental artifacts'). If you apply a piece of soul to a golem, you get a humunculus - it is a proto-soul (soul shard that can grow into a soul-seed) placed within a body fashioned by a mage (usually an alchemist or some form of artificer). After the death of the creator, these types of devices often become 'awakened' after a time. If the shard (in the item)is the only one left (Xvim & Bane?), then the shard's persona (soul) immediately activates and begins to think it IS the deceased personage. This may be what happened with Myrkul and the Crown of Horns. There are other nefarious uses for life energy (soul shards) as well, too many to get into in this work. I refer you to the many tomes dealing with fiends and other outsiders.
Undeath:
Outsiders can NOT be 'undead'. They aren't alive in the mortal sense to begin with. This includes gods, as well as fiends, celestials, etc. A god can take any form it wishes, but when it is not exerting any will to look different, it will revert to its 'default' form, which may be a lich or some other frm of intelligent undead. its just 'cosmetic'. Undeath requires the use of negative energy, which is anathema to positive (divine) energy. HOWEVER, as with anything else in the universe, there are always 'exceptions'. Things that have 'broken the rules' either by a powerful ritual going awry, or by some sort of wild magic surge because (potent) conflicting magic is being used at the same time. Of all the 'god liches' in the universe, Mellifleur is the only one known for sure to be truly 'undead'. It is said that at the exact moment he became a lich (the FIRST lich?), the adoration of his acolytes - all of whom which were consumed in the ritual - became 'worship', and at the precise second he attained lichdom, he attained godhood. the timing couldn't have been more perfect (some think it was on purpose). Orcus is another example of one that 'broke the rules', although how he managed to become something (undead) only a mortal can achieve is beyond anyone.
*This scenario is based upon the events in Blood Charge, but the ending of that module has been tweaked so that the heroes both won and lost, to better jibe with some of Brian James' later lore regarding Tan Chin (some of which is only quasi-canon, because it is in a core book). Thus, this was my 'fix' for how to mesh all of that together. Tan Chin later dies again... or does he? He has re-arisen so many times he has more lives then the Black Panther (a cat), his ancient nemesis. I don't think we've yet seen the last of him. 
Just a note, the god of liches, Mellifleur (now Velsharoon in FR) was known for having multiple phylacteries. Also, there was a feat in FR in order to do this. There was no lessening of power of the phylacteries, but that is a good idea.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2015 : 02:41:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Venomus
quote:
The need to feed on souls gives Liches a reason to be engaged in the game-world, just like Vampires.
Well wasn't that the purpose in becoming a lich to be "immortal" without a need for sustenance from outher sources? Eternity for gaining knowledge but at a price of being a skeleton (without some valuable ekhm, fleshy bits).
If liches now need to feed souls then what is the point in becoming one? Every necromancer should instead invest in vampiredom. If you have to feed like mortals why not have all your body intact(with reproductive organs!) and look young. Souls, blood what's the difference,eh? Even better, you can drink without killing people (eating souls is...kinda terminal for health).
It's kinda sad becouse i always loved the idea of liches (in D&D and Warhammer especially) and seeing that a powerhouse like Larloch that just wants to be left alone must actively collect souls is...kinda lame. It just does't feel right for the mythology...
Ummm, to live more than say 80 years.... that's why |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2015 : 02:46:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
First off, I already demonstrated how the 'quality' of a soul can affect the 'nutritional value' ( ) it provides. In my example, a level 25 character would provide a lich with enough energy to sustain itself for a little over 52 years.
Given that the new rules don't seem to specify a mathematical formula for sustenance, 52 years makes as much sense as 50 or 75 or 200.
quote:
Second, I already explained that if they are changing 'demilich' because the name is misleading, then they need to change the meaning of 'archlich' as well. The archlich should NOT be 'a good lich', it should be a superior lich.
Previous lore doesn't suggest any general sense of superiority for an archlich, just that they're different in terms of alignment.
This would be like saying, "since they broke one thing that didn't need fixing" that they should also break all the related concepts that went with the original.
quote:
I really do LOVE the idea of liches 'feeding' on life energy
Personally, I really don't like the idea. Classically, and in previous lore (and has been stated by another poster), a lich's goal is to retreat from mortal affairs and the needs of the flesh. Demiliches trapped and destroyed souls out of malice, for daring to invade their retreat. Liches really just wanted to study and gain more power and knowledge. It really set them apart from other undead, whether it was for duty (archliches) or personal gain (regular liches).
Fortunately, this is a game where we get to ignore rules we dislike, rather than being required to embrace formulaic requirements.
No, classically, they required larvae and traded with hags for them. Also, larvae don't require tending, so they could really stack up a bunch of them and use them as necessary if they desperately needed to stay in hiding for centuries. However, I can see even a lich in hiding being able to transport themselves for a day to where the plane where night hags are, arrange to buy some larvae, and come back. Its not some horribly game changing thing. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2015 : 03:00:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
To each their own, but as for the argument concerning vampirism vs. lichdom I'll say this: Perhaps the reason for lichdom (and consuming souls rather than blood) could be that consuming the soul maintains the lich's strength for far longer than blood does for the vampire. This would allow the lich to continue its studies without the burden of having to feast on blood on a nightly (or near nightly) basis.
Just a thought.
Earlier you had mentioned seeing that liches fed on larvae (and I'm assuming you meant soul larvae) and I was going to ask you if you remembered the source? I've been delving around and haven't seen it yet (though I have seen some interesting other stuff, like the very early Dragon magazine article on how to build a lich).
Although I dislike the idea, it's mainly because it changes my long-standing perception of how liches operate, their motivations, and their needs. That said, I do agree that blood is certainly less "packed" with energy than a soul would be. And there are creatures that do use souls for nourishment - but I tend to see them as much more active, more of a direct threat than a lich.
1st edition Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, page 57
"This is the place where Azimer has been killing larvae brought to him by summoned demons and night hags, which helps him to maintain his lichhood (though he no longer sees himself as a lich at all)."
1st edition Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, page 61
"Though he still summons night hags and demons to collect larvae, enabling him to maintain his existence as a lich, he now believes he is doing this in order to achieve godhood (which will never occur)."
Planescape Monstrous Compendium I, Larva entry in 2nd edition
"Powerful liches feed on larval energies to maintain their undead immortality, and in return the liches destroy creatures who refuse to trade with the hags. The complex bartering system is sustained by the growing numbers of lower planar inhabitants." |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2015 : 03:14:46
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It's always curious when people decide to respond to earlier posts in a thread, without first reading the latter parts of the thread.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Venomus
Acolyte
Poland
13 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2015 : 18:31:47
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quote:
Ummm, to live more than say 80 years.... that's why
Yeah, but it shouldn't work that way.
I've always seen liches as one step under deities. Mortal who didn't want to die so hard that they're created means to become immortal without achieving apotheosis of goodhood.
One ritual and, bam - not needing to worry for such trivialties as seeking some kind of fuel for themselves for millenia. Like a infinite powerplant/nexus/core of energy inside them (seen as the cool glowy light in liches eye sockets). Even gods die without worship. But liches? If you don't destroy his philactery they can go without signs of madness or age technically forever. Kill a paladin then sit on a throne for a hundred years or so and thinking only minutes have passed and being mildly amused that the paladin's corpse is nothing more than bones. You just killed him moments ago...right?
The soul sucking or larvae consumption just makes them... a "throw a d20 for a monster at the end of the crypt/dungeon". A con thrown so they need to re-fuel. |
"Know me and fear me. My embrace is for all and is patient be sure. The dead can always find you. My hand is everywhere - there is no door I cannot pass, nor guardian who can withstand me." - Myrkul |
Edited by - Venomus on 02 Sep 2015 18:34:55 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2015 : 18:38:59
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In my opinion, an argument can be made for liches to have a need to periodically "replenish" the magic that keeps them up and kicking.
I'm just not cool with the larvae/soul thing being the only way to do that. |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2015 : 23:32:57
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Well, an argument could be made that Fiends & Celestials & Petitioners could serve as alternate sources of energy... Since, they're all theoretically entities that have metamorphisised out of souls/larvae.
Making the Liches have a mechanism that is generally "evil" to sustain themselves is however consistent with the overall characterization that Necromancy/Undead are "evil"... considering they've changed Healing Spells to be Evocation instead of Necromancy in the PHB. |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2015 : 01:11:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
Well, an argument could be made that Fiends & Celestials & Petitioners could serve as alternate sources of energy... Since, they're all theoretically entities that have metamorphisised out of souls/larvae.
Making the Liches have a mechanism that is generally "evil" to sustain themselves is however consistent with the overall characterization that Necromancy/Undead are "evil"... considering they've changed Healing Spells to be Evocation instead of Necromancy in the PHB.
I don't think it had to be something evil, though. Why could they not do something like sacrifice magical items, or perhaps redo the process that they used to gain undeath?
I get that most liches are evil, but it's not necessarily a malicious, no concern about hurting others type of evil... Some D&D lore has even explicitly stated that it's not necessary to be evil to become undead, but that undeath has a tendency to disconnect a person from the world and push them towards evil.
A lich that wasn't evil to begin with, or that wasn't overly evil originally, may be more inclined to use some method of renewal that doesn't involve a soul. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2015 : 01:57:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
In my opinion, an argument can be made for liches to have a need to periodically "replenish" the magic that keeps them up and kicking.
I'm just not cool with the larvae/soul thing being the only way to do that.
See my earlier ideas for alternate lich names/types. People were saying they'd like to see a "good" lich besides the archlich. The "devalich" (name not important... but I did like that devalich and devilich might be confused) might keep their phylactery energized by drawing upon powerful celestial resources (even if they're arcane casters). This ultimately might be soul energy, as petitioners meld with the celestial planes or their deity, but from a gameplay standpoint it could be seen as "a flower from the bush of life" or "water from the celestial pools of rejuvenation", etc..... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2015 : 02:03:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
Well, an argument could be made that Fiends & Celestials & Petitioners could serve as alternate sources of energy... Since, they're all theoretically entities that have metamorphisised out of souls/larvae.
Making the Liches have a mechanism that is generally "evil" to sustain themselves is however consistent with the overall characterization that Necromancy/Undead are "evil"... considering they've changed Healing Spells to be Evocation instead of Necromancy in the PHB.
I don't think it had to be something evil, though. Why could they not do something like sacrifice magical items, or perhaps redo the process that they used to gain undeath?
I get that most liches are evil, but it's not necessarily a malicious, no concern about hurting others type of evil... Some D&D lore has even explicitly stated that it's not necessary to be evil to become undead, but that undeath has a tendency to disconnect a person from the world and push them towards evil.
A lich that wasn't evil to begin with, or that wasn't overly evil originally, may be more inclined to use some method of renewal that doesn't involve a soul.
That being said, it should also be remembered that magic is sympathetic... so fire magic will tend to be better fueled by fiery things... undeath magic will be better fueled by soul energy. Still, an alternate energy resource should be doable (just as a fire spell fueled by lightning makes sense). Similarly, as you say sacrificing magic items should work.... but maybe they work better if they are necromantic magic items, etc.... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2015 : 02:55:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
Well, an argument could be made that Fiends & Celestials & Petitioners could serve as alternate sources of energy... Since, they're all theoretically entities that have metamorphisised out of souls/larvae.
Making the Liches have a mechanism that is generally "evil" to sustain themselves is however consistent with the overall characterization that Necromancy/Undead are "evil"... considering they've changed Healing Spells to be Evocation instead of Necromancy in the PHB.
I don't think it had to be something evil, though. Why could they not do something like sacrifice magical items, or perhaps redo the process that they used to gain undeath?
I get that most liches are evil, but it's not necessarily a malicious, no concern about hurting others type of evil... Some D&D lore has even explicitly stated that it's not necessary to be evil to become undead, but that undeath has a tendency to disconnect a person from the world and push them towards evil.
A lich that wasn't evil to begin with, or that wasn't overly evil originally, may be more inclined to use some method of renewal that doesn't involve a soul.
Oh, I'm with you there Wooly... I was just saying that they were being consistent with the baseline presentation of the Undead & Necromancy, in the core books. I'm totally not pushing a good/evil perspective, or that this is the right way or wrong way or anything like that.
My general sense of things is that energy is just energy. I don't think the Monster Manual is redefining all previous variations of Lichdom, it's just presenting the "generic evil lich" that exists at the end of "generic dungeon". It makes sense that a "generic evil lich" would use souls as their energy source, since they are the cornerstone energy resource in the planes.
(I am glad though that there is more lore that supports the concept).
...Another thought that occured to me is that perhaps creating a stable Portal to either the Positive or Negative Energy Plane, could enable a Lich to siphon the requisite energy on a regular basis. |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2015 : 14:18:30
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Maybe all the good points here will be seen by some WOTC guy and taken into consideration when they come up with rules for creating liches eventually  |
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Liches & Demiliches in 5e
