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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Aug 2015 : 21:01:16
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When my group was still playing face to face, we had "Deathless" for good (intelligent) undead.
The concept and even the term later appeared in 3E (either BoED or in one of the Eberron books, I forget which came first). Don't know if D&D had a Deathless version predating this. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2015 : 22:19:41
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Archliches have been mentioned a couple of times... These are good-aligned liches, created by Ed. He created them for a Spelljammer supplement, but they exist in Realms canon, as well.
Off the top of my head, I can only recall one -- but she's from Ed's pen. Lady Alathene Moonstar was first mentioned in Volo's Guide to Waterdeep.
Of course, this is another case of lich terminology being wonky - "arch-" generally refers to a more powerful form or more highly ranked form of something. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 28 Aug 2015 22:21:37 |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2015 : 23:59:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
Aren't some Liches the result of a failed ascension to godhood?
I'm not familiar with any lore to that effect. Most of the lore I'm familiar with says that regular liches are folks that don't want to let death get in the way of their various magical studies.
I believe you guys may be thinking of one of those 'atropal' things from 3e.
I started doubting myself for a couple minutes, thinking that Cyric had gotten in my head again.
There may not be any other references to this in subsequent material, but on page 4 of my old AD&D Faiths & Avatars book, under the part about Births of Deities. If someone attempts to attain divinity through rituals or artifacts without an established deity's sponsorship, and get a "No" from AO, they might be turned into a Lich. |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2015 : 08:50:58
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| I've been banging my head on a wall trying to find a place that has the website's info I referred too earlier. I'm almost positive my original link to that site was found here at CK. It was pre 3e days I believe...and I know the website dealt with pre 3e material. Google search is only bringing up the usual sites depending on how I frame the search and my CK search is slow going. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2015 : 09:13:31
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| Hmm, maybe I can also add something actually germane to the conversation. Regarding failed attempts to become a god and turning into a lich, does anyone remember the Radiance from the world of Mystara? In that world, one could attempt to become an Immortal (god) through the Radiance...but a failed attempt could turn one into a lich (or a lich-like creature). |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2015 : 16:41:17
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Well, since Radiance = Old school 'positive energy', and old school mummies were created with positive, rather then negative, energy, then that creature would be the same as an Ancient Dead (old school Greater Mummy).
Not all mummies wear bandages.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2015 : 19:42:35
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| On the soul eating, back in 1st edition FR and many 2nd edition resources it was noted that liches often traded with hags for larvae, and they did so in order to maintain their existence. Personally, I like that idea that liches must feed their phylacteries souls periodically. I like the idea that liches have some kind of maintenance, even if its only one larvae every ten years or fifty years or somesuch. Now, if they don't feed their phylactery, having them turn into demi-liches... not so much... but maybe if they don't feed their phylactery, their phylactery quits working and they start degrading, maybe to the point that they become trapped in their phylacteries... and eventually their phylactery dumps them to "the place where vestiges go" and they become a "spirit"/"vestige" that works with binders (or warlocks) in order to interact with their world. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2015 : 19:53:35
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As to alternate names, hmmmm, lets throw some ideas out real quick
Devalich - "good" lich, powered by heavenly energy in return for doing good deeds
Devilich - a lich fiend who has enhanced his lich form by tying it somehow to the energies of the lower planes (i.e. maybe his phylactery is siphoning soul energy from these planes.... making him not a friend of the fiends by the way).
Semi-lich - a failed lich or a degraded lich |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2015 : 20:25:09
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
On the soul eating, back in 1st edition FR and many 2nd edition resources it was noted that liches often traded with hags for larvae, and they did so in order to maintain their existence. Personally, I like that idea that liches must feed their phylacteries souls periodically. I like the idea that liches have some kind of maintenance, even if its only one larvae every ten years or fifty years or somesuch. Now, if they don't feed their phylactery, having them turn into demi-liches... not so much... but maybe if they don't feed their phylactery, their phylactery quits working and they start degrading, maybe to the point that they become trapped in their phylacteries... and eventually their phylactery dumps them to "the place where vestiges go" and they become a "spirit"/"vestige" that works with binders (or warlocks) in order to interact with their world.
I really like this concept. It'd be fun to put a table of what could become of a lich if he doesn't feed and see what happens. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2015 : 20:28:12
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I like the idea that liches have some kind of maintenance, even if its only one larvae every ten years or fifty years or somesuch. Now, if they don't feed their phylactery, having them turn into demi-liches... not so much... but maybe if they don't feed their phylactery, their phylactery quits working and they start degrading, (snip)
If I recall correctly, something like this happened with the lich Azimer in the Grey Box adventure Lashan's Fall. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2015 : 20:39:52
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More of my Lich/Soul Cage lore...
Hoarcruxes:
It IS possible for a Lich (or other creatures capable of 'magic jarring' souls) to split their 'essence' (soul) into more then one piece. Such was the habit of the divine liches (mummies) created by pharonic priests (those Canopic Jars). In some settings these are known as 'Hoarcruxes, in others, 'soul jars' or 'soul cages'. It all amounts to the same thing. One can theoretically split one's soul into as many shards as they wish, based upon their personal power (one shard per level). In fact, this is the mechanism behind the (old school) level-draining undead. They are basically stealing a shard for themselves.
The upside to doing this is that you have more pieces to hide, and there for more ways to 'come back' after being killed. one must destroy every last shard to make sure death is complete. For example, the Lich Tan Chin was thought to be destroyed when the Ebony Atifacts were dealt with. However*, one of the artifacts was a counterfeit, and the Lich was able to return sometime after the heroes defeated him.
The downside is that with more pieces, there are more chances for people to find - and destroy - pieces of one's soul. Also, the ore times a soul is split, the weaker each piece becomes, and the easier to destroy. Strangely - through some 'cosmic mechanism', when one creates another Horacrux (soul shard stored in a item one has gained affinity with - usually a personal belonging or even body part), the other pieces all become 'weaker', no matter the distance away. In that way, the pieces all must be of equal value (life energy). It is said that some beings - including a few Uberliches - have figured out ways to separate differing amounts of energy into different vessels, but there is no proof of this, and most sages scoff at the notion (but not Elminster, who refuses to speak at all on the mater). Another downside is that if a person were to find one Horacrux, it would lead them to the others, one way or another. Powerful magic could be used to turn it into a type of 'spiritual compass', or just a series of seemingly random events would lead one to the other pieces (more of that 'cosmic mechanism' - the pieces are trying to get back together). It is for these reasons that liches - and others who like to hide their souls - tend to avoid this tactic. If a phylactory is viewed as a weakness, then having a dozen would be viewed as having a dozen weaknesses.
Using Soul Shards:
Pieces of a soul (or an entire soul, in the case of larvae and manes) can be used to create magical artifacts, most especially self-aware ones. Sometimes this happens by accident, when a age puts too much of his/her life energy into a magical item, but most often it is done with purpose. A third mechanism is when a soul becomes attached to an existing item - this is how 'Legacy items' are created (sometimes amusingly referred to by scholars as 'accidental artifacts'). If you apply a piece of soul to a golem, you get a humunculus - it is a proto-soul (soul shard that can grow into a soul-seed) placed within a body fashioned by a mage (usually an alchemist or some form of artificer). After the death of the creator, these types of devices often become 'awakened' after a time. If the shard (in the item)is the only one left (Xvim & Bane?), then the shard's persona (soul) immediately activates and begins to think it IS the deceased personage. This may be what happened with Myrkul and the Crown of Horns. There are other nefarious uses for life energy (soul shards) as well, too many to get into in this work. I refer you to the many tomes dealing with fiends and other outsiders.
Undeath:
Outsiders can NOT be 'undead'. They aren't alive in the mortal sense to begin with. This includes gods, as well as fiends, celestials, etc. A god can take any form it wishes, but when it is not exerting any will to look different, it will revert to its 'default' form, which may be a lich or some other frm of intelligent undead. its just 'cosmetic'. Undeath requires the use of negative energy, which is anathema to positive (divine) energy. HOWEVER, as with anything else in the universe, there are always 'exceptions'. Things that have 'broken the rules' either by a powerful ritual going awry, or by some sort of wild magic surge because (potent) conflicting magic is being used at the same time. Of all the 'god liches' in the universe, Mellifleur is the only one known for sure to be truly 'undead'. It is said that at the exact moment he became a lich (the FIRST lich?), the adoration of his acolytes - all of whom which were consumed in the ritual - became 'worship', and at the precise second he attained lichdom, he attained godhood. the timing couldn't have been more perfect (some think it was on purpose). Orcus is another example of one that 'broke the rules', although how he managed to become something (undead) only a mortal can achieve is beyond anyone.
*This scenario is based upon the events in Blood Charge, but the ending of that module has been tweaked so that the heroes both won and lost, to better jibe with some of Brian James' later lore regarding Tan Chin (some of which is only quasi-canon, because it is in a core book). Thus, this was my 'fix' for how to mesh all of that together. Tan Chin later dies again... or does he? He has re-arisen so many times he has more lives then the Black Panther (a cat), his ancient nemesis. I don't think we've yet seen the last of him.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Aug 2015 20:41:16 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2015 : 20:57:03
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Lastly...
Awakening:
Covered above, but needing some clarification. When the primary bearer of a soul (the mage or whomever) dies, the sentience awakens in whatever pieces are left. If one fragment is greater then the others, then only that one will be activated. When they are all of equal strength, they will all become 'soul seeds' and grow into a sentience of their own... usually with their own personalities. It is suspected this is what happened with Alias and her 'sisters'.
This means golems with soul shards (homunculi, or warforged, etc) would also awaken over time, and in time, their shard would grow into a complete soul. This takes many, MANY years (centuries?), and most of these creations go a little insane and try to rush the process (for game mechanics, its akin to gaining levels. There is a 5% chance per level of a soul seed blossoming into a full soul, rolled each time a new level is gained). Why would this be important, you might ask? A person without a FULL soul is where the saying 'not playing with a full deck' comes from. The more pieces one is missing, the more erratic one's behavior becomes. The individual has this deep, nagging feeling that they are 'incomplete', and weaker-minded persons will go insane from that feeling if it lasts long enough. This is not only another danger to a creature splitting its soul, its may be the number one reason for not doing so. Even a normal lich will feel an 'itch' when separated from their phylactory for any distance. A simple itch can make one mad given enough time (liches who's phylactories have been separated from them by hundreds or thousands of miles, or even on other planes, have been known for this). The greater the distance, the more urgent the feeling becomes. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Aug 2015 20:58:40 |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2015 : 21:23:47
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
On the soul eating, back in 1st edition FR and many 2nd edition resources it was noted that liches often traded with hags for larvae, and they did so in order to maintain their existence. Personally, I like that idea that liches must feed their phylacteries souls periodically. I like the idea that liches have some kind of maintenance, even if its only one larvae every ten years or fifty years or somesuch. Now, if they don't feed their phylactery, having them turn into demi-liches... not so much... but maybe if they don't feed their phylactery, their phylactery quits working and they start degrading, maybe to the point that they become trapped in their phylacteries... and eventually their phylactery dumps them to "the place where vestiges go" and they become a "spirit"/"vestige" that works with binders (or warlocks) in order to interact with their world.
I do like this idea. Perhaps one soul every 100 years or so.
But it still leaves a problem for good archliches. Consuming a soul, resulting it its destruction, is still an evil act (even if it's an evil soul). How do good archliches maintain their undeath?
As for the evil lich who forgets to eat souls and breaks down, retreating into the phylactery seems like a good option - at which point it becomes a cursed item: at that point, perhaps something like five souls are needed to rebuild the lich's physical form, and a hapless adventurer who touches the phylactery must engage in a will contest with the lich. If the lich wins, the adventurer is magic-jarred into the phylactery - and then the lich, in control of the body, hunts for four more souls to feed his "rebirth"?
Side note: I do like Harry Potter, but hoarcruxes in D&D just seem unnecessarily complex. Similarly, "soul shards" IMO is really just equivalent to the idea of mages sacrificing experience points to create items which is kind of an interesting idea but something that no one actually likes on a real, practical level.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Venomus
Acolyte
Poland
13 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2015 : 02:21:11
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quote:
The need to feed on souls gives Liches a reason to be engaged in the game-world, just like Vampires.
Well wasn't that the purpose in becoming a lich to be "immortal" without a need for sustenance from outher sources? Eternity for gaining knowledge but at a price of being a skeleton (without some valuable ekhm, fleshy bits).
If liches now need to feed souls then what is the point in becoming one? Every necromancer should instead invest in vampiredom. If you have to feed like mortals why not have all your body intact(with reproductive organs!) and look young. Souls, blood what's the difference,eh? Even better, you can drink without killing people (eating souls is...kinda terminal for health).
It's kinda sad becouse i always loved the idea of liches (in D&D and Warhammer especially) and seeing that a powerhouse like Larloch that just wants to be left alone must actively collect souls is...kinda lame. It just does't feel right for the mythology...
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"Know me and fear me. My embrace is for all and is patient be sure. The dead can always find you. My hand is everywhere - there is no door I cannot pass, nor guardian who can withstand me." - Myrkul |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2015 : 03:00:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
The need to feed on souls gives Liches a reason to be engaged in the game-world, just like Vampires
Which is not seen as a good thing by everybody. Not having a need to be engaged was one of the trademarks of liches. It enabled them to study quietly for decades and centuries until they came upon a reason to be enganged.
You don't get this "ancient lich coming out of nowhere" with liches that are well known in their regions for periodically feeding on souls.
It also made it easier to treat with a lich. You could do a lich a favor and then leave him be in the knowledge he would just quietly study for another century. Walking away from a lich know is letting a souleater continuing to pray on the innocent. |
Edited by - Mirtek on 30 Aug 2015 03:07:57 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2015 : 08:18:23
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Which is why, perhaps, liches (as stated back in 1e) fed on larvae. They didn't have to engage to local populace in order feed...and thus remained secret for centuries. I would also assume that they really don't need all that many larvae to feed upon to maintain their state of undeath (though there should be minimal requirements before insanity and/or decay into demi-lichdom sets in). Perhaps MTs formula of '1 level=2 months' is a bit high. What if were '1 level=1 year' instead?
And, of course, not all liches choose not to engage. Tam is a clear example of this. He would need souls...and in the trilogy centering on his taking over Thay he appeared to consume several people (though that may have just been for his ritual).
And whose to say that every lich arrives at their undead state the same way? Go back to 1e and you will see there was a Lichdom spell (9th level) at one time. There was also the creation of a potion that was a save (and become a lich once actual death occurred) or die on the spot (and fail to become a lich). There have also (apparently) been instances where individuals became liches through sheer force of will (though I really don't like that notion AT ALL).
MTs thoughts are a group of 'YMMV' examples. Take what you like, discard the rest. As for me...I like having multiple avenues for these things. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2015 : 16:23:50
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First off, I already demonstrated how the 'quality' of a soul can affect the 'nutritional value' ( ) it provides. In my example, a level 25 character would provide a lich with enough energy to sustain itself for a little over 52 years.
Second, I already explained that if they are changing 'demilich' because the name is misleading, then they need to change the meaning of 'archlich' as well. The archlich should NOT be 'a good lich', it should be a superior lich.
There should be some sort of 'good' lich. HOWEVER, 'good' is VERY relative. A Baelnorn created back in the day of the Crown wars could be murdering every human it comes across... because they are just 'filthy, thieving animals'. Thus, you can have a lich that is 'tainted' with positive (Divine) energy to sustain itself, and that type of lich would NOT need to "eat souls". This category would replace the old 'Greater Mummy' (Ancient Dead), because they would normally be created by priesthoods. That does not make them universally 'good', because I I just stated, that 'goodness' would be relative to the culture and religion that created it. That means an Urlich (going with the term I coined earlier) who is created by halflings probably bakes pies all day and just ignores whats going on, whilst an Urlich created by Drow priestesses probably tears everyone it meets apart... including the people who created it. Its all 'good', depending upon the culture. The only problem with this is that it makes sense RW, but in the D&D 'alignment system', not so much. Thus a Urlich should be neutral, with individuals having 'tendencies' that lean it one way or another. They are not so much 'immoral' as they are 'amoral'.
I really do LOVE the idea of liches 'feeding' on life energy - it makes sense on so many levels, and if we apply some of the things I've said here, we still get a vast panorama of arch-types and unique individuals, that would cover all the bases, both old-school and new. It just gives them more depth. Some liches (like the Suel lich that Tan Chin seems to be) have always done something along these lines, and as others have stated regarding both OD&D and 1e, this is NOTHING NEW. They are just high-lightening some things we have forgotten about liches over the years. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Aug 2015 16:28:34 |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2015 : 19:35:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
First off, I already demonstrated how the 'quality' of a soul can affect the 'nutritional value' () it provides. In my example, a level 25 character would provide a lich with enough energy to sustain itself for a little over 52 years.
Given that the new rules don't seem to specify a mathematical formula for sustenance, 52 years makes as much sense as 50 or 75 or 200.
quote:
Second, I already explained that if they are changing 'demilich' because the name is misleading, then they need to change the meaning of 'archlich' as well. The archlich should NOT be 'a good lich', it should be a superior lich.
Previous lore doesn't suggest any general sense of superiority for an archlich, just that they're different in terms of alignment.
This would be like saying, "since they broke one thing that didn't need fixing" that they should also break all the related concepts that went with the original.
quote:
I really do LOVE the idea of liches 'feeding' on life energy
Personally, I really don't like the idea. Classically, and in previous lore (and has been stated by another poster), a lich's goal is to retreat from mortal affairs and the needs of the flesh. Demiliches trapped and destroyed souls out of malice, for daring to invade their retreat. Liches really just wanted to study and gain more power and knowledge. It really set them apart from other undead, whether it was for duty (archliches) or personal gain (regular liches).
Fortunately, this is a game where we get to ignore rules we dislike, rather than being required to embrace formulaic requirements.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 30 Aug 2015 19:38:06 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2015 : 19:48:22
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I'm going to echo that I don't like liches needing to feed, because -- as pointed out earlier -- it invalidates prior lore about liches and leaves one wondering why that option instead of another, like vampirism.
Someone else pointed out that liches have been known to do trade for souls... Well, just because they acquire them, it doesn't mean they're eating them. They could be using them for research, for fueling other magical effects, or just getting them as a means of having something to trade to those who do deal with souls as currency. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2015 : 20:01:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm going to echo that I don't like liches needing to feed, because -- as pointed out earlier -- it invalidates prior lore about liches and leaves one wondering why that option instead of another, like vampirism.
Someone else pointed out that liches have been known to do trade for souls... Well, just because they acquire them, it doesn't mean they're eating them. They could be using them for research, for fueling other magical effects, or just getting them as a means of having something to trade to those who do deal with souls as currency.
Exactly. For liches who seek more knowledge by traversing the planes, souls have already been established as currency in the lower planes. They might trade some of their spells or items for a few souls, which then they can use to barter with high level demons or devils.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2015 : 21:10:27
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To each their own, but as for the argument concerning vampirism vs. lichdom I'll say this: Perhaps the reason for lichdom (and consuming souls rather than blood) could be that consuming the soul maintains the lich's strength for far longer than blood does for the vampire. This would allow the lich to continue its studies without the burden of having to feast on blood on a nightly (or near nightly) basis.
Just a thought. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2015 : 02:06:58
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
To each their own, but as for the argument concerning vampirism vs. lichdom I'll say this: Perhaps the reason for lichdom (and consuming souls rather than blood) could be that consuming the soul maintains the lich's strength for far longer than blood does for the vampire. This would allow the lich to continue its studies without the burden of having to feast on blood on a nightly (or near nightly) basis.
Just a thought.
Earlier you had mentioned seeing that liches fed on larvae (and I'm assuming you meant soul larvae) and I was going to ask you if you remembered the source? I've been delving around and haven't seen it yet (though I have seen some interesting other stuff, like the very early Dragon magazine article on how to build a lich).
Although I dislike the idea, it's mainly because it changes my long-standing perception of how liches operate, their motivations, and their needs. That said, I do agree that blood is certainly less "packed" with energy than a soul would be. And there are creatures that do use souls for nourishment - but I tend to see them as much more active, more of a direct threat than a lich.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 31 Aug 2015 02:07:55 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2015 : 02:59:28
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Not at home and near my sources, but I suspect that comes from the Hall of the Beast Tamers adventure in Dragon #95/the Old Grey Box or REF3 The Lords of Darkness. I know the latter talks about a lich needing to cast "Nulathoe's Ninemen" on his/her phylactery periodically, so I suspect it's the former.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2015 : 03:03:46
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Not at home and near my sources, but I suspect that comes from the Hall of the Beast Tamers adventure in Dragon #95/the Old Grey Box or REF3 The Lords of Darkness. I know the latter talks about a lich needing to cast "Nulathoe's Ninemen" on his/her phylactery periodically, so I suspect it's the former.
-- George Krashos
Ah, so perhaps a specialized or unique lich.
EDIT: Indeed, there it was - Ref5, Lords of Darkness. Most liches cast Nulathoe's Ninemen regularly on their phylactery to maintain their existence (once every 777 days, or they and their phylactery crumble to dust on the 778th). Others consume larvae instead of casting Nulathoe's Ninemen.
Good memory - and so it was in lore, interesting. This also allows an "out" for good liches to not need larvae/souls.
Makes one wonder if liches have an instinctive awareness of the 777 day time-clock. "Uh oh, approaching day #772 this year, better prep it again." Also, if memory serves, Nulathoe's Ninemen is unique to the Realms - do all liches in Greyhawk or other settings just know about larvae consumption? Or perhaps Nulathoe traveled the planes as many mages do, spreading some of his spells to other worlds?
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 31 Aug 2015 03:34:28 |
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Rymac
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2015 : 03:36:42
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Not at home and near my sources, but I suspect that comes from the Hall of the Beast Tamers adventure in Dragon #95/the Old Grey Box or REF3 The Lords of Darkness. I know the latter talks about a lich needing to cast "Nulathoe's Ninemen" on his/her phylactery periodically, so I suspect it's the former.
-- George Krashos
Predominantly it's from the adventure Lashan's Fall. However, Ed described liches that became liches through alternative means (which aren't described) in Ruins of Undermountain. Nester (sp?) is one of them that comes to mind, although is probably not the perfect example. |
Edited by - Rymac on 31 Aug 2015 03:43:37 |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2015 : 03:45:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Rymac
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Not at home and near my sources, but I suspect that comes from the Hall of the Beast Tamers adventure in Dragon #95/the Old Grey Box or REF3 The Lords of Darkness. I know the latter talks about a lich needing to cast "Nulathoe's Ninemen" on his/her phylactery periodically, so I suspect it's the former.
-- George Krashos
Predominantly it's from the adventure Lashan's Fall. However, Ed peppered liches that became liches (through alternative means which aren't described) in Ruins of Undermountain. Nester (sp?) is one of them that comes to mind, although is probably not the perfect example. Maybe one of those alternatives requires the sacrifice/consumption of souls or larvae?
Was Allokair (sp?) a traditional lich? I don't remember, although I'm guessing he was since he was among the featured undead in REF5 Lords of Darkness.
In Ref5, Allokair is statted up right before the very detailed "Becoming a Lich" process/description, so I'd argue he's probably a traditional lich.
Though really, I suppose an argument can be made that every lich is a unique lich.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2015 : 04:04:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Rymac
Predominantly it's from the adventure Lashan's Fall. However, Ed described liches that became liches through alternative means (which aren't described) in Ruins of Undermountain. Nester (sp?) is one of them that comes to mind, although is probably not the perfect example.
Interestingly, the lich Azimer in Lashan's Fall is seriously insane, and actually summons night hags and demons to harvest larvae to maintain his lichdom (though he believes it's because they'll eventually help him achieve godhood).
Although Nulathoe's Ninemen is detailed in a spellbook (right after the adventure of Lashan's Fall), it doesn't seem that Azimer has or uses the spell - though this could be buried somewhere in the adventure, I haven't seen it yet.
So far, the only source I've seen that says Nulathoe's Ninemen is Ref5. Might be in other places, though, not sure. But I've been bored today and spent quite a lot of time looking through old sources.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2015 : 10:45:59
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Well GK beat me too it, but yes, those adventures (which appear in the OGB) are the primary source of my comment about larvae. I had forgotten about the Ninemen spell though. This makes me wonder: Does consuming a single larvae last as long as casting that spell? I would think so (or maybe last even longer than the spell). This means that the lich's needs are minimal and it can study for quite a long time before needing to consume another one.
Now I'm wondering how long a larvae stays 'fresh' enough to consume. Can a lich procure a batch of pickled larvae and consume them as needed? Or do they spoil (i.e. lose their efficacy) in a short period of time? If the former, then the lich could purchase a batch and spend decades (or even centuries) in its studies before needing to interrupt them to traffic in souls again. If the latter, well then he needs to interact with hags or whatever more often. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2015 : 15:32:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
First off, I already demonstrated how the 'quality' of a soul can affect the 'nutritional value' () it provides. In my example, a level 25 character would provide a lich with enough energy to sustain itself for a little over 52 years.
well, having to eat whats essentially a demigod twice a century doesn't look like a reliable diet
I Actually Luke the larvae consuming AS a way out. A lich can do this quietly Form hi lair and only has to worry to not eat an already claimed larvae |
Edited by - Mirtek on 31 Aug 2015 15:36:18 |
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Topic |
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Liches & Demiliches in 5e
