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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Jul 2015 : 03:58:49
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George Krashos penned some excellent additional lore about Jergal, which of course kept the gears in my head grinding away on ideas for my home game... But, I just realized that the return of Bhaal and Myrkul and various other deities pose some broader Realms-Lore questions, which probably don't have clear cut answers at this point... So, I encourage you to provide any number of wild speculations, suggestions on how you would handle things in your campaigns, or other questions that you want cleared up. And, yes as the title of the scroll may have implied, the first couple questions that came to mind were about the Fugue Plane...
1. Who is in charge of the Fugue Plane now, Kelemvor, Myrkul, or Jergal?
2. Has the functionality of the Afterlife and the Fugue Plane changed?
3. Are returned deities, like Talos, still just aspects of other deities, or are they separate entities now?
4. If a deity took a portfolio, and the deity that originally held the portfolio returns, what happens to the portfolio?
5. If Xvim has just been masquerading as Bane this entire time, are there now Two Banes, or is Xvim actually killed by Bane's resurrection this time?
6. Are there any lesser gods, or demigods that should either get a boost this time around, or greater gods that should get taken down a notch?
...Any other questions need to get asked & answered?
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To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2015 : 04:07:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
5. If Xvim has just been masquerading as Bane this entire time, are there now Two Banes, or is Xvim actually killed by Bane's resurrection this time?
I just want to make it clear that this is a theory of mine, based on a lot of little tidbits scattered about here and there. I fully expect that we will no longer get those tidbits, and that the default assumption will be that Bane 2.0 really is just Bane 1.0. |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2015 : 04:58:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
5. If Xvim has just been masquerading as Bane this entire time, are there now Two Banes, or is Xvim actually killed by Bane's resurrection this time?
I just want to make it clear that this is a theory of mine, based on a lot of little tidbits scattered about here and there. I fully expect that we will no longer get those tidbits, and that the default assumption will be that Bane 2.0 really is just Bane 1.0.
Oh, I know Wooly. That's why I phrased it with the word "If" instead of "Since". I just think it's a very credible theory, in the context of all the other imposter and aspect scenarios that have been part of Canon Realms Lore...
7. Sseth finally woke up from his god-sleep... Will Ulutiu ever wake up or is he a permanent ice cube?
8. Speaking of Sseth... Is Ubtao just going to keep withering away in Chult now that his nemesis is back in action? |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2015 : 13:57:18
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| I thought Ulutiu finaly died from Auril draining his energy... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2015 : 14:30:13
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The 'Bane thing' may have worked something akin to what happened with Doctor Doom in Marvel comics - there were two of them for awhile - one a 'child' and the other turned out to be a malfunctioning (deranged?) robot. Eventually, the real Doctor Doom came home from his 'cosmic romp' and put both of them in their place.
Thats what I would use, modified for FR and on a deific scale:
The real (core) Bane begets an offspring, and as things work in the universe (usually), a little of his devine essence is tranferred to Xvim. As Xvim grows up, Bane begins to get 'the itch'- he wants to become even more powerful, but the rules of Realmspace (Tablets of Fate) have him stymied. Looking at the Elvish and other non-human pantheons, he decides to make a name for himself on a multispheric scale. The first thing he does is create a self-aware, independent avatar to leave in his stead. If all goes correctly, no-one should notice and the avatar will slowly power back up to Bane's full level in short order (because of all the 'worship energy' going his way). Then Bane packs is bags and leaves for the Outlands.
Some time goes by - maybe a century (how old is Xvim, anyway?), or maybe just two decades (the period between 1e and 3e) - and (core) Bane returns, all glistening and shiny with new found power (he managed to get his faith started on at least a dozen worlds where the divine interloping rules weren't as strict). He returns to his own, home religion in shambles! The avatar started wondering about those self-same 'rules', and even participated in a ridiculous plan to steal the Tablets of Fate (and thus maybe keep the mantle of 'THE Bane' for himself). This didn't end well, his avatar was destroyed, and the entire pantheon was shaken-up.
He also found his son masquerading around as a 'returned Bane', and using that shard of godhood he had inside him he was able to rest some of his father's faithful away from Cyric and at least keep a foothold in The Realms. Rather then destroy him - after all his child did save what little of his faith he could - he simply told him to step down and re-assumed the mantle of 'The Bane' himself. Xvim would be a demipower again, serving under him. He didn't know who this Kelemvor was that replaced Myrkul, but if Myrkul was stupid enough to have gone along with his avatar's ridiculous plan, then he could live would a new, more level-headed god of the dead. This Cyric fellow was another problem, and greatly annoyed him. He seems to have held all three of the 'dead gods' portfolios for a time, and even a few others. Even with Bane's newly acquired multispheric powers, this Cyric fellow could prove to be quite a thorn in Bane's side.
Jergal was Jergal - enigmatic as ever. He never really understood Jergal's motives, and he always felt that Jergal was secretly laughing at him behind his back. That was not a problem, because it seems to be one of the few things that hadn't changed.
And then there was Shaar - she had been up to her old tricks as well. Although he owed her a few favors, he had a sneaking suspicion that she was somehow behind the fiasco that was the Time of Troubles, and the meteoric rise of Cyric. That was a problem that could wait - he's already had centuries to negotiate with his old sponsor. If Jergal was somehow involved in the Avatar Crisis along with Shaar - either as allies, or one of them using the situation to their advantage - that could be very problematic down the line. It all depended on whether they were working independently or not.
Yes, it was a mixed-up, shook-up world, but he could work with it. While he began making new plans, the Spellplague struck (or maybe he engineered that with his new, multispheric powers? Maybe in his wanderings he discovered Abeir?) Now he had an entire century of confusion and fear to weave a new , Machiavellian web of intrigues, and that was VERY much to Bane's liking.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Jul 2015 14:36:05 |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2015 : 20:27:53
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| Wow! Thanks for the inspiration Markustay... That ties in excellently with me still wanting to use the Bane/Gruumsh conflict as part of my Realms plotline. Very nice. |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2015 : 05:01:21
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While I obviously prefer my own musing, I think there is some niftiness in Markustay's idea.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
(how old is Xvim, anyway?)
I'm not sure that we've ever been given a date of birth for Xvim... But the old Westgate Dynasties doc that that was, as I recall, a web enhancement for the wonderful Cloak & Dagger notes that Xvim ruled Westgate from 710 to 734. It's quite reasonable to assume he was at least a century old at that time, likely older -- he had to have spent some time going from a relative nobody to a true power (note the lower-case P, not a capital one). |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2015 : 15:43:27
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Okay, then, thats even better. It gives Bane much more time to develop his faith on other worlds, and maybe only 'checked-in' on Toril every so often during that period.
The point of that last post was to not only explain away the initial question - how can both Bane and Xvim be around post-4e, but to also marry the concept of 'core' Bane' to the FR one. Previously when I tried to do this, I had it where our (FR) Bane was just an avatar/aspect of the real, multispheric Bane, but I think by turning that around the lore goes down a bit easier for FR fans (that OUR Bane is the core Bane).
It also helps to patch some of the stupidity surrounding the ToT (in much the same way that Marvel used that story to patch their own stupidity (Doom was starting to become something of a joke). Thus, BANE was always brilliant and manipulative... but his 'lesser' self - the avatar - not so much. The Avatar crisis was caused by a not-as-good substitute that over-stepped his bounds. Xvim became 'activated' (just as Kristoff* did in Marvel comics), and tried to save what he could of hid father's faith and hold it for him.
Wooly's version still works; the piece of Bane (divinity shard) within Xvim became activated as it received worship, and eventually the Bane consciousness buried within his subconscious emerged, like a caterpillar turning in a butterfly. Xvim's own consciousness was not absorbed - it was pushed back down into his own subconsious. The dramatic visual of Bane bursting forth from Xvim was done on purpose, so word would spread and more Cyricists would come back to the fold (and it worked very well). When the real Bane returned to set things right, he simply swapped the two personas again (so that his own consciousness still resides buried within Xvim... just in case).
The reason why I am taking to this latest theory is that I was never really happy with the whole ToT, as were a lot of other fans. The gods were behaving stupidly, and it 'lessened' them in our eyes. Combine this with other musings going on around here - that certain other gods weren't who we thought they were - and also that some of the deities involved may have been manipulated/taken over by other Powers, that would go a LONG WAY in explaining why so many of them were acting like idiots. There was even a scene in Shadows of the Avatar wherein a mortal was reading the mind of Bane! I don't think he could have done that to the real Bane, but a fairly weak avatar standing in for Bane? It just makes sense that that was a cheap imitation all along.
*Kristoff was NOT a clone - that was a different Victor Von Doom knock-off. I got the two mixed up. I just read the Wiki on that. It doesn't effect what I have here - the comparison between Doom and Bane is nearly perfect, and Doom is known for leaving behind all sorts of 'substitutes' to do his bidding in his name, so why not Bane? It fits with a megalomaniac tyrant who wants to be everywhere at once.
EDIT: I am surprised no-one jumped all over the idea that the real (core) Bane may have caused the spellplague himself, or at least, the forced conjunction of Abeir and Toril. I am sure thats not what Cyric or Shar had in mind at all. Another (powerful) hand in the mix would help explain how all of their plans got away from them like that. Now, if we go with the idea I presented in the other thread - that Bane = Asmodeus - then it makes sense he showed up (hidden) at the fight with Mystra and absorbed Azuth into himself. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Jul 2015 15:49:00 |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2015 : 03:05:52
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It's always interesting to see how people view the whole Spellplague event... I always thought of the Spellplague was the ultimate Chaos-effect of Cyric trying to absorb Mystra, and briefly interacting with the Weave itself. I tend to see Cyric as similar to the Joker from Batman. The scene from the Batman films when Joker decides to burn the giant mountain of cash, seemed to fit my vision of Cyric generating the Spellplague.
...I definitely agree that Bane would see the Spellplague as a huge opportunity for him to bring Order to the Chaos. Bane somehow forcing the conjuction of Abeir & Toril sounds like a supremely epic Banite response to the Spellplague... Especially since eliminating Maztica would massively undermine the other deity that rivaled him as a symbol of Order: HELM.
Although, it occurs to me now that perhaps Bane & Myrkul stealing the Tablets of Fate could be construed as the event the enabled Bane (and possibly Myrkul) to access Abeir (and perhaps the rest of the Multi-verse)... Thereby leaving behind sub-optimal Avatars of themselves that promptly get slaughtered in the Avatar Crisis. So, AO destroys the Tablets of Fate using the pretext the deities don't care enough for their worshipers, when it is truly to try and prevent the other deities from becoming Multi-verse entities beyond his control.
Brining up the topic of Abeir made me think of a couple other questions to throw out into the Aether:
9. How did the Afterlife function on Abeir... Did they all filter to the Fugue Plane as well, or was there an Abeir-Fugue Plane?
10. Is Telos the Primordial still just sitting in Vaasa churning out Ironfell?
11. Are all the Dragonborn (and the rest of the Abeirians) that got dumped on Toril basically screwed & condemned to the wall surrounding the City of Judgment?
12. With the Spellplague effects gone, is it assumed that Halruua is effectively a blank-slate waiting to be recolonized by someone?
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To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2015 : 03:23:28
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I seem to recall reading somewhere around here hints that Halruua isn't as "gone" as it appears or has appeared for the past century or so. It might not be quite so blank a slate as one might think.  I want to say that's from Ed, but can't pull up the exact post or anything at present. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2015 : 15:45:34
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Yeah, I think I commented on that and then Ed /THO commented back : "Just like that".
I figured they took massive damage, and rather then let their enemies (and any greedy folks, which is just about everyone on a world of adventurers) know exactly what condition they were in, they spread the rumor themselves that the destruction was COMPLETE, and the area extremely dangerous. The few that still showed up to see for themselves were eliminated, which added credence to the story. Not saying they weren't hurt bad, just saying they wanted to hide for a time until they were able to get their defenses back up to snuff (and also learn how this 'new magic' worked).
9. How did the Afterlife function on Abeir... Did they all filter to the Fugue Plane as well, or was there an Abeir-Fugue Plane? Same Fugue - you loose your memory as you hangout there, and I would bet nearly everyone on Abeir - except for the immortals/primordials - wouldn't have known their history anyway. To any other soul from Toril, they would have just been 'some odd spirit from some weird place I've never been", and that covers a LOT of ground with FR.
10. Is Telos the Primordial still just sitting in Vaasa churning out Ironfell? I would imagine so; The Warlock Knights of Vassa was one of the niftiest pieces of lore that came out of 4e. Why throw the baby out with the bathwater?
11. Are all the Dragonborn (and the rest of the Abeirians) that got dumped on Toril basically screwed & condemned to the wall surrounding the City of Judgment? It works like this: "Have you excepted Helm as your personal savior?"
Dragonborn would only be condemned to the wall if they didn't bother to believe in the gods, even after they came to Toril where there was plenty of evidence they existed. Besides, Kelemvor got rid of the wall, IIRC. Before the planets swapped stuff, I would imagine it worked the same way it does in Christianity - "you cannot be condemned for never hearing The Word". In other words, how can someone be punished for a decision that was taken completely out of their hands?
Just my thoughts on the matter. I actually have grown fond of the whole 'Abeir' thing, because its like having a box of 'spare parts' lying around to fix your setting. And its not just for designers - we can ALL use it - it really is a pretty clever device for over-writing canon, whilst staying within canon. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Jul 2015 15:47:45 |
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Taurendil
Acolyte
Chile
43 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2015 : 17:49:19
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quote:
7. Sseth finally woke up from his god-sleep... Will Ulutiu ever wake up or is he a permanent ice cube?
When did Sseth wake up? Is that 4th Ed. lore, 5th?
Haven't read about that since 3.5 and the last thing I knew was that Set kept him dormant in the Abyss, while masquerading for him. |
- Ideas desordenadas sin RPG en especķfico www.juegoconamnesia.blogspot.com (Spanish)
- Des idées en vrac pour n'importe quel JdR www.jeudeloubli.blogspot.com (French) |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2015 : 18:37:57
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Thanks for the FYI on Halruua. I totally missed the Ed-Update on that one. Good to know before my players start asking me questions about it.
Am I completely off-base on the Sseth reawakening thing too? I could have sworn that I read somewhere that he woke up after the Shades were defeated at the end of the 4e period.
Hooray for Telos. I also thought he was one of the best additions to Realms-Lore from 4e, and I didn't get a chance to use him in my 4e campaign... I won't miss the opportunity this time.
Regarding the "Abeir-Fugue" connection... Since both worlds feed souls to Fugue plane, wouldn't that imply that the beings that were either given Deity status by Jergal, or ruled over the City of Judgement would be aware of the existence of Abeir (and possibly have portion of their divinity residing there)?
So, that's Bane, Bhaal, Myrkul, Cyric, and Kelemvor? If so, wouldn't that help justify Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul circumventing their own deaths during the Avatar Crisis?
13. Apparently I missed the boat on Kelemvor's demolition of the wall, too... So, does that mean that "Faithless" souls just wander the Fugue for enternity now?
14. Does the destruction of the wall surrounding the City of Judgement mean that the deal with Asmodeus & the treatment of the "False" souls over and done with too, and the Fugue just emulates the standard "Souls proceed to their Plane of Alignment" approach to the Afterlife?
15. Did Jergal bring Myrkul & Bhaal back to start rebuilding the wall?
16. Do Demons just raid the Fugue Plane for all souls now that they can't steal bricks from the Wall?
...I can't believe I had that many questions about that Wall... |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2015 : 19:41:14
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| I didn't know the Wall was demolished either. Woohoo! I never liked the idea of the Wall. I actually like the "preceed to plane of alignment'" idea, considering most souls who didn't worship a particular deity went to the realm of the deity who was best aligned with their ideologies or the way they lived their lives. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2015 : 22:20:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Besides, Kelemvor got rid of the wall, IIRC.
Do you have any reference or hint or vague memory of where is this stated in canon? |
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Taurendil
Acolyte
Chile
43 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2015 : 02:14:09
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Back in home, couldn't find any source for Sseth imprisonment by Set post 3.5 Ed, not any reference to Sseth in general, actually.
5th Ed. MM, under Yuan-Ti entry, has a side box that talks about Merrshaulk being asleep and impersonated by Sseth. No reference to Set whatsoever, but then again I'm not sure if that's generic D&D or FR lore.
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- Ideas desordenadas sin RPG en especķfico www.juegoconamnesia.blogspot.com (Spanish)
- Des idées en vrac pour n'importe quel JdR www.jeudeloubli.blogspot.com (French) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2015 : 06:03:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Besides, Kelemvor got rid of the wall, IIRC.
Do you have any reference or hint or vague memory of where is this stated in canon?
Sorry, not a clue. In fact, I don't think it was something I read so much as something I was told (probably on some thread right here at the keep).
If its not something I read myself but was told about, then the most likely suspect would be Crucible: The Trial of Cyric the Mad. Thats just a shot in the dark, though.
Or it could have been come from an online article, now that I think about it. Also, if it was 4e lore, then its probably over-written... again (considering a lot of 'dead gods' are back). Hope not, though - the wall was a bit confusing. Not a big fan of FR's whole afterlife thingy - I'm old school and stick with the Great Wheel (so I am in agreement with CorellonsDevout above). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2015 : 13:15:26
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| So the Great Wheel is more along the lines of what I said? (I am not too familar with it). Souls going to the god that best suits them, whether or not they worshiped that specific deity? I know certain things changed over editions in regards to the layout of the planes and such, but the afterlife didn't seem to change (other than whether there was a Wall or not). |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2015 : 14:11:25
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
So the Great Wheel is more along the lines of what I said? (I am not too familar with it). Souls going to the god that best suits them, whether or not they worshiped that specific deity? I know certain things changed over editions in regards to the layout of the planes and such, but the afterlife didn't seem to change (other than whether there was a Wall or not).
In the pre-3E cosmology, dead souls in the Realms went to the Fugue Plain, where they were retrieved by their deity (usually a divine servant) and then taken to the deity's abode on the Great Wheel.
So it was pretty much standard Great Wheel, there was just an extra stop for the dead. A waiting period for the afterlife, if you will. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2015 : 14:17:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Besides, Kelemvor got rid of the wall, IIRC.
Do you have any reference or hint or vague memory of where is this stated in canon?
Sorry, not a clue. In fact, I don't think it was something I read so much as something I was told (probably on some thread right here at the keep).
If its not something I read myself but was told about, then the most likely suspect would be Crucible: The Trial of Cyric the Mad. Thats just a shot in the dark, though.
Or it could have been come from an online article, now that I think about it. Also, if it was 4e lore, then its probably over-written... again (considering a lot of 'dead gods' are back). Hope not, though - the wall was a bit confusing. Not a big fan of FR's whole afterlife thingy - I'm old school and stick with the Great Wheel (so I am in agreement with CorellonsDevout above).
4e lore wasn't really overwritten, most changes were just reverted. Even if Myrkul is back, it doesn't mean that the Wall has to suddenly pop up again. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2015 : 14:47:11
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So, are we saying that 4e was really the thing that demolished the Wall?
I know I have a minority opinion on this one, but I always liked the Wall. Here's why: I always thought that at some point, someone could change the overall functionality and aesthetic of the Fugue Plane. A place the enlightens souls before they move on, instead making them forgetful, aimless, and confused. With Jergal being the primary force that shapes the plane, it ends up being a very gloomy, evil distortion of a Lotus Flower... Or a necromantic version of a Beehive...
Maybe there's somebody out there that could brighten the place up a bit, or make a deal with a Celestial instead of Asmodeus, or maybe turn Jergal's frown upside down and teach him how to love and laugh... The functionality of the wall could shift, and heal or repair souls instead of painfully disintegrating them... I know, I know, it's just a pie in the sky idea... |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2015 : 15:23:51
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I just checked the very ending of Prince of Lies, on the outside chance it was in there, but nope.
As of right now, what I said is just hearsay. If it wasn't in that second Cyric novel, then I would think it would have to have been an online article (even if I didn't read the article, because I still have the feeling that it was something mentioned by someone else here at the keep, or perhaps even on the WotC site back when I was still going there).
Now that I think about it, if Kelemvor did get rid of the Wall of the Faithless, that would have been 3e, not 4e; why would he have waited so long to do so? Unless the events of the Spellplague made him rethink the wall (which is a possibility - those events really shook-up the pantheon, and would have caused many to not trust in 'the gods').
The 3e Faiths & Pantheons tome states he 'judges the False and the Faithless', which indicates the two are still separate things in his mind - if not the Wall, then how else would he separate the two? We need someone around here who is a planer expert, because now I am not sure if I am just remembering someone's version (homebrew) of The Realms cosmology. Its one of the areas I am deficient in, because I've always just used the default D&D (Great Wheel) cosmology. I have it* where the 'Fugue Plane' is really just a waiting room (weigh station) in The Outands. Most of the major pantheons have these - they are like demi-planes within the Outlands (for those religions that have some sort of 'judgement' before they move on to their final placement).
EDIT: And for what its worth, my D&D leanings in these matters reflect my RL beliefs - you judge yourself, when your soul is "stripped bare before god" (or 'the gods'). Only YOU truly know you, and since we are all part of the 'cosmic consciousness' that is God, you receive the afterlife you deserve. Thus, like CorellonsDevout stated above, you go where you belong (the plane on the Great Wheel). The only time 'the gods' come into play is if you were especially faithful and earned a place in a 'private heaven' (or hell).
*This last part is once again homebrew - how I personally reconciled the FR material with the core cosmology. My Faerūnians may picture a 'Great Tree', but its their own preconceptions of the default cosmology that changes what they see. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Jul 2015 15:34:52 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2015 : 15:58:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
So, are we saying that 4e was really the thing that demolished the Wall?
Here's a thought: At the end of Prince of Lies Oghma tells Kelemvor, "Reward? What makes you think being made Lord of the Dead is a reward? The last two deities to hold the post went mad." If anything would drive Kelemvor insane, it would be the death of Mystra. Thus, the 4e version of FR's afterlife could look very different then what it did in 3e (he could have become a harsh and angry deity, prone to swift, merciless judgement).
quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
I know I have a minority opinion on this one, but I always liked the Wall. Here's why: I always thought that at some point, someone could change the overall functionality and aesthetic of the Fugue Plane. A place the enlightens souls before they move on, instead making them forgetful, aimless, and confused. With Jergal being the primary force that shapes the plane, it ends up being a very gloomy, evil distortion of a Lotus Flower... Or a necromantic version of a Beehive...
You've just inspired me - instead of the whole person being shoved in the wall, how about just the head? When being judged one must kneel before the 'lord of the end of everything' (or whatever title crazy Kelevor may have taken). If you are found guilty of being Faithless, a jagged, rusty blade descends onto your neck. The head is picked up by one of the attendants and placed on top of the wall. A wall of talking heads, ready to bestow wisdom upon the clever, but mostly just crying and bemoaning their fate. It would be a pretty grisly site.
quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
Maybe there's somebody out there that could brighten the place up a bit, or make a deal with a Celestial instead of Asmodeus, or maybe turn Jergal's frown upside down and teach him how to love and laugh... The functionality of the wall could shift, and heal or repair souls instead of painfully disintegrating them... I know, I know, it's just a pie in the sky idea...
His 'kind' do not smile or joke - they do not know how. I am sure they experience amusement on some level, though.
You go where you deserve, no matter what cosmology/religion you follow. If you wound up in the Fugue then you weren't faithful to anyone but yourself, and deserve your fate. It should NOT be all 'rainbows & unicorns' - thats the afterlife for people who have earned it. People who 'lost faith' because of circumstances may be able to earn back their reward after a time of service in Kelemvor's realm (this last part is pure supposition). I only assume this because otherwise of what need do we even have a 'Judge of the Dead'? There has to be a few worth saving.
And now that has me thinking of the K-T thread(s). Yen-Wang-Yeh is FR canon in the eastern realms, and since the original Chinese pantheon seems to be replaced (one personage at a time) over the years by native deities/mortals, and Kelemvor seems to be acting very much like Yen-Wang-Yeh (a stern, completely impartial judge), it would make sense that in 4e/5e Kelemvor has taken over that god's faith on Toril (he would still have his own place in the Outlands for other worlds). He could still be going by that name as an alias, though (I would imagine they brokered a deal - after the Horde wars you get a lot of people living on the border of both pantheons, and they probably pay lip-service to both). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Jul 2015 16:00:15 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2015 : 16:29:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
So, are we saying that 4e was really the thing that demolished the Wall?
Here's a thought: At the end of Prince of Lies Oghma tells Kelemvor, "Reward? What makes you think being made Lord of the Dead is a reward? The last two deities to hold the post went mad." If anything would drive Kelemvor insane, it would be the death of Mystra. Thus, the 4e version of FR's afterlife could look very different then what it did in 3e (he could have become a harsh and angry deity, prone to swift, merciless judgement).
I'm not as sure on that one. The same book saw Kelemvor shedding some of his mortal emotions, apparently including those for Mystra, and her protection of Velsharoon was a further issue between them. That was part of what got Cyric off the hook -- he caused strife between former lovers. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2015 : 17:29:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
So the Great Wheel is more along the lines of what I said? (I am not too familar with it). Souls going to the god that best suits them, whether or not they worshiped that specific deity? I know certain things changed over editions in regards to the layout of the planes and such, but the afterlife didn't seem to change (other than whether there was a Wall or not).
In the pre-3E cosmology, dead souls in the Realms went to the Fugue Plain, where they were retrieved by their deity (usually a divine servant) and then taken to the deity's abode on the Great Wheel.
So it was pretty much standard Great Wheel, there was just an extra stop for the dead. A waiting period for the afterlife, if you will.
That's how I understood it, and I think the afterlife pretty much stayed that way throughout the editions, the only difference being the Wall, where those who didn't acknowledge any of the gods went. Most Faerunians pay homage to numerous gods, it being a polytheistic soicety. When they died, their soul would be retrieved by the deity (or serivtor as you pointed out) of the deity that best suits them.
I never liked the idea of the Wall |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2015 : 17:35:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Here's a thought: At the end of Prince of Lies Oghma tells Kelemvor, "Reward? What makes you think being made Lord of the Dead is a reward? The last two deities to hold the post went mad." If anything would drive Kelemvor insane, it would be the death of Mystra. Thus, the 4e version of FR's afterlife could look very different then what it did in 3e (he could have become a harsh and angry deity, prone to swift, merciless judgement).
This one allways confused me. Oghma said the lasttwo gods of dead went mad. I understand Cyric, but Myrkul seemed pretty sane. Or does just Oghma refer that Myrkul stealing the Tablet's of Fate was insane? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2015 : 19:03:50
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
So the Great Wheel is more along the lines of what I said? (I am not too familar with it). Souls going to the god that best suits them, whether or not they worshiped that specific deity? I know certain things changed over editions in regards to the layout of the planes and such, but the afterlife didn't seem to change (other than whether there was a Wall or not).
In the pre-3E cosmology, dead souls in the Realms went to the Fugue Plain, where they were retrieved by their deity (usually a divine servant) and then taken to the deity's abode on the Great Wheel.
So it was pretty much standard Great Wheel, there was just an extra stop for the dead. A waiting period for the afterlife, if you will.
That's how I understood it, and I think the afterlife pretty much stayed that way throughout the editions, the only difference being the Wall, where those who didn't acknowledge any of the gods went. Most Faerunians pay homage to numerous gods, it being a polytheistic soicety. When they died, their soul would be retrieved by the deity (or serivtor as you pointed out) of the deity that best suits them.
I never liked the idea of the Wall
I'm not fond of it, myself, but not so much as to even home-brew it out of existence -- especially after my idea the other day, of using the Wall to help maintain the containment of some serious nastybad that scares the gods themselves.
However -- and I'm not directing this at anyone in particular -- debating the Wall is not something I'm enthusiastic about. It got seriously ugly the last time. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2015 : 02:10:26
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Alright, Wooly. I hear you. Unless Markustay digs something up something definitive about a change in the status of the Wall, we should observe the rules of "Fugue Club".
Rule #1: You do not talk about the Wall of the Faithless.
AND
Rule #2: You DO NOT TALK about the Wall of the Faithless!
BUT REMEMBER
Rule #3: If this is your first trip to the Fugue Plane... You will be Judged!
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To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2015 : 20:28:22
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I think someone brought up Ulutiu, and I had an inspiration the other day.
What if someone/something had tunneled beneath the ice a thousand or so years ago, and found the necklace? Then they took the large, central stone and mounted it in a ring.
The Ring of Winter. 
And with the necklace gone, the ice began to thaw, albeit slowly, Eventually Vassa and Damara were released from the eternal ice...
Now we just have to figure out who the likely culprits were (dwarves, most likely), and what happened to Ulutiu himself? Would his physical form be like stone or something, if he is now a 'dead god'? Would he just be in stasis? Did Auril subjugate or absorb him? Or has he been around all this time in another guise and we just didn't know it?
EDIT: And I am just going through the Scales of war AP and noticed the Seed of Winter - once again, this could be the Jewel from Ulutiu's necklce, that somehow wound-up in a Fomorian king's hands (after a stint in the 'Ring of Winter'). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Aug 2015 17:27:20 |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2015 : 02:22:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
5. If Xvim has just been masquerading as Bane this entire time, are there now Two Banes, or is Xvim actually killed by Bane's resurrection this time?
I just want to make it clear that this is a theory of mine, based on a lot of little tidbits scattered about here and there. I fully expect that we will no longer get those tidbits, and that the default assumption will be that Bane 2.0 really is just Bane 1.0.
I included the "Bane is really Xvim" heresy in Monument of the Ancients, so this theory is now more fully grounded in Realmslore. Alas, my understanding is that a recent 5E adventure saw these heretical Banites killed off... |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Who the Fugue is in charge around here?!
