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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Oct 2015 : 11:37:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
Well, since we're on the topic of Velsharoon & Myrkul...
I was looking through the ol' AD&D Monster Mythology, and was thinking that maybe the thing to do is have Velsharoon stay "dead", and have the returned Myrkul take his portfolios... and have Myrkul actually be Mellifleur.
...and maybe have the returned Bhaal actually be Kanchelsis.
So, if I can think of one more (instead of BANE) it could be the "Undead Three" this time around.
That'd be one hell of a demotion for Myrkul, not to mention the conflation with poor Mellifleur.
A lot of this seems really random. Myrkul was worshiped by necromancers, but he wasn't a god of necromancy or undeath. Bhaal has virtually nothing in common with Kanchelsis in backstory, portfolio or personality. The whole undead trio thing just doesn't work, not unless you drastically rework the Dark Three's personalities, but at that point you're just dealing with some dudes named Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul, not the actual deities Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul.
A lich god and a vampire god work, thematically, with Big V, Big M and Kanchy, because their backstories and personalities both tie into the behavior typically attributed to liches and vampires (and, in Big M's case, subverts it entirely). Myrkul isn't even remotely close to being a deity for undead scholars and has no interest in undeath and the undead barring how they can be used to further his goals. Bhaal's only connection to vampirism is that he ruled the Throne of Blood.
Bane has his baneliches, but that's about it. |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2015 : 16:01:25
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
Well, since we're on the topic of Velsharoon & Myrkul...
I was looking through the ol' AD&D Monster Mythology, and was thinking that maybe the thing to do is have Velsharoon stay "dead", and have the returned Myrkul take his portfolios... and have Myrkul actually be Mellifleur.
...and maybe have the returned Bhaal actually be Kanchelsis.
So, if I can think of one more (instead of BANE) it could be the "Undead Three" this time around.
That'd be one hell of a demotion for Myrkul, not to mention the conflation with poor Mellifleur.
A lot of this seems really random. Myrkul was worshiped by necromancers, but he wasn't a god of necromancy or undeath. Bhaal has virtually nothing in common with Kanchelsis in backstory, portfolio or personality. The whole undead trio thing just doesn't work, not unless you drastically rework the Dark Three's personalities, but at that point you're just dealing with some dudes named Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul, not the actual deities Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul.
A lich god and a vampire god work, thematically, with Big V, Big M and Kanchy, because their backstories and personalities both tie into the behavior typically attributed to liches and vampires (and, in Big M's case, subverts it entirely). Myrkul isn't even remotely close to being a deity for undead scholars and has no interest in undeath and the undead barring how they can be used to further his goals. Bhaal's only connection to vampirism is that he ruled the Throne of Blood.
Bane has his baneliches, but that's about it.
This scroll is intended to be a brainstorming scroll, so some of what is contained in it will be somewhat random. I've posted many ideas that I have subsequently dropped...
The ideas I'm kicking around in my head about Bhaal and Myrkul are primarily related to the concept that BANE & Kelemvor are at odds with Jergal and the returned Bhaal and Myrkul. BANE thinks that the entities that have returned to the Realms and have been permitted by Jergal to assume the names of Bhaal and Myrkul, are not the same entities that BANE was originally allied with...
What are your ideas for entities that could assume the divine titles of Bhaal and Myrkul? |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2015 : 08:11:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
That's a great observation Baltas... It adds to one of the ideas I've speculating about the Abyss. The idea that perhaps the Abyss generates an Echo of everything in the Multiverse. So if Demogorgon is an Echo of Corellon, and Orcus is an Echo of Gruumsh, perhaps Lolth is actually an Echo of Araushnee.
Yeah, that's an interesting idea, especialy that the Demonomicon, compared the Abyss to infection, or cancer of the multiverse. This may be why the Abyss has infinte planes - it's a counterbalance to the rest of the multivverse. In The Dark Eye there is an interesting idea that each Archdemon, if a dark reflection of one of the main 12 gods. While some seem to be sprouted out nowere as dark counterparts, other are more complex. Like the Archdemoness Charyptoroth, is the corrupted sister of the water and storm god Efferd.
In the same way Graz'zt could be seen as Asmodeus' Abyssal counterpart, as his three realms were even mockingly called the little Nine Hells by his opponents. And Graz'zt may be Asmodeus' son with Pale Night. Pale Night herself, might be an even more evil counterpart of Shar. But With her, it may be more complex, as the Demonomicon suggests Pale Night is much older than the current multiverse. So maybe the both Selune and Shar(as the twin goddess Shar-Selune?) were orignally created by the multiverse as a reaction, and defence mechanism against the great evil of Pale Night?
About Araushnee and Lolth, there is an Drow legend, that Araushnee absorbed a Dark Elf witch, that dabbled in Unseelie magic, in order to stop the evil dark elf witch. The dark elf witch, is now only known as The Spider Queen. Maybe Araushnee originally absorbed her Abyssal reflection(The Spider Queen), in order to to stop her, but got corrupted overtime, and became the Lolth we know? |
Edited by - Baltas on 05 Oct 2015 09:32:10 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2015 : 11:34:33
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Also, about Myrkul, he was tied to Vecna, a few times, in articles by Eric L. Boyd, for example with the Eye of Vecna becoming The Eye of Myrkul in the Realms. Both are from ancient cultures(Myrkul Murghom/Imaskar for Myrkul and Flan for Vecna), with Hammito-Semetic and Indian ties(Flan are in part based on the Berber, but also had the untouchable caste durig the time of Vecna).
Although Vecna rose from very humble beginings, being a member of the mentioned above untouchable caste, while Myrkul was the crown prince of Murghom.
[EDIT]
Also, some time ago Cyrinishad proposed Lolth is the same as Graz'zt. There definitely are similarities between the two. But maybe both are aspects of Slaanesh from Warhammer? Slaanesh has similarities to both Graz'zt and Lolth. While Lolth or Graz'zt doesn't devour thetr worshippers souls as Slaanesh, Lolth did seemingly devour most of her petitioners and demons serving her during her ascension as recorded in the War of the Spider Queen series.
In turn, Mephala from The Elder Scrolls series, resembles both Lolth and Slaanesh... |
Edited by - Baltas on 17 Oct 2015 16:58:11 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2015 : 08:32:28
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Also, speaking of Warhammer, one could link Myrkul to Nagash. Nagash is as outright theorized to be inspired by Vecna, but is more similar to Myrkul in background, being a prince.
Nagash is also a manipulative genius, his crown is an artifact, and in Age of Sigmar, he ascended to become the God of Death and Dead.
The Old Ones/Slann from both Warhammer Fantasy and 40,000 also show similarities to Batrachi and Slaadi.
Like Batrachi, the Old Ones had hands in creating other younger races, and were specialized in portal magic. Both were also amphibian in form.
The Slann are probably defendants of the Old Ones, although the End Times scenario, suggested that the Slann are both creations/defendants of the Slann, as well as the future Old Ones in the next/world universe.
Not to mention, the creator races, are also sometimes known as "The Old Ones".
Warhammer 40,000 curiously in some sources, also suggested the Old Ones were not a single amphibian species (the Slann), but probably several ancient species similarly to The Creator Races... |
Edited by - Baltas on 21 Oct 2015 12:32:39 |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2015 : 14:09:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
As part of the returned Mystra's effort to stabilize the Weave, she is creating her own divine alliance to make sure Shar & Cyric & Lolth don't try and usurp control of the Weave again. Here's what I have for magic schools & gods so far:
Abjuration - Deneir?
Conjuration - Shaundakul?
Divination - Savras
Enchantment - Sharess?
Evocation - Talos?
Illusion - Leira
Necromancy - Velsharoon
Transmutation - Finder?
Universal (all wizards) - Azuth
The deities with question marks next to their name are tenative, in some cases I may have to write something about why they've returned.
I had a similar idea except the rationale was to create a system where if the Goddess of Magic should die again the School gods could stabalise the weave before to much damage was done
Abjuration: Helm
Conjuration: No idea
Divination: Savras
Enchantment: Bane (Maybe)
Evocation: Portfolio split between the 4 Elemental gods
Illusion: Leira
Necromancy: Velshoon or Myrkul
Transmution: No idea (maybe Gond, Transmutation has alot of creating stuff or maybe Ilmater as it also seems to have quite a bit of healing under Master Transmuter)
also have an idea where Helms reborn church, Paladin orders and Monks have an Anti-outsider agenda and that Helm is Torils Guardian and his followers work to banish Outsiders (regardless of Alignment) from the prime and close gates and portals that lead to the Outerplanes
Bards: Milli
Sorceror: Maybe Talos (as he did try and claim wild magic after the ToT
Warlocks: Gargauth or Maybe Shar
Wizards: Azuth
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“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2015 : 11:10:47
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| The Mased Lady, if used, might be the best patron for Warlocks. Eilistraee was designed by Ed to be very Fey-like, and merged with her brother, she also represents the element of evil and darkness connected to Warlocks. That, and Eilistraee is confimed to be connected in some way to to Weave after her resurrection. |
Edited by - Baltas on 22 Oct 2015 11:13:56 |
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