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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Jul 2015 : 22:59:19
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You're right, I misread her entry in the Fiendish Codex... Having competing consorts in charge of Hell & the Abyss would probably intesify the Blood War, not end it... I'll have to go back to the drawing board on her.
BANE's immediate goal (at least in my campaign) is vengeance against Tiamat and Szass Tam. After that, BANE's primary motivation and long-term goal is to become the Ultimate Tyrant of the multi-verse... To achieve this, it means he will inevitably have to destroy Asmodeus, precisely because Asmodeus is arguably the most powerful evil entity in the multi-verse, and it is unlikely that he would ever surrender his authority to BANE. So, I'm trying to figure out what kind of Alliance BANE would have to build to dethrone Asmodeus.
As far as Yurtrus goes, I had definitely considered making him an Aspect of Moander (possibly being tied to why Finder gets overcome by Moander's power). But, I've also considered the idea that he was just an Orcish interpretation of Jergal... And if I decide that Yurtrus is truly his own Orc, I might just have him wait and see how things play out between BANE's forces and Ghaunadaur's forces... |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
Edited by - Cyrinishad on 11 Aug 2015 14:48:15 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2015 : 23:24:16
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Well, Mephistpheles might be a nice candidate for an aliance, but Baalzebul might be better, as he might ally himself with Bane, if Bane frees him from his sluglike form, and helps him regain his original, angelic(with insectoid elements) form.
Also, it's also interesting that the most numerous of his followers are bugbears, so it also ties to Bane dominating the goblinoids, and their pantheon.
Zariel, the current Lord(or rather Lady) of the First, might also want to ally with Bane, as Asmodeus let her be imprisoned, eaten bit, by bit by Bel, before retaking her position as the ruler of the first Hell.
Belial, and Fierna, also want revenge against Asmodeus, as Asmodeus very brutaly murdered Naome, Belial's consort, and Fierna's mother, before their eyes. A plus is, that Baalzebul, Belial, and Zariel, were once alies, and Belial and Baalzebul still are. |
Edited by - Baltas on 25 Jul 2015 23:49:49 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2015 : 03:10:16
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I had toyed with the notion awhile back that Bane is Asmodeus - at least, the FR interpretation of him. The whole 'core' Bane thing in 4e actually helps back that up (since Bane became multispheric and far more powerful then just the local Bane we know).
I got the idea from some thread a long time ago where someone was asking why Asmodeus really doesn't have any followers in the Realms (when plenty of other, lesser fiends do). It made me think, "maybe he does, he's just clever enough to disguise it" (because of the nature of Realmspace, and its importance to the multiverse as a whole).
That certainly wouldn't fit in with your thoughts on him being Gruumsh... or would it? Toward the end of 3e the Orcs weren't 'good' by any stretch of the imagination, BUT, they had started to behave awfully lawful (for orcs, anyway). Could the rise of Obould be tied to the rise of Bane as the new head of the Orcish pantheon? He did seem like an odd choice for Gruumsh to pick as a Chosen. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Jul 2015 03:55:51 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2015 : 05:04:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I had toyed with the notion awhile back that Bane is Asmodeus - at least, the FR interpretation of him. The whole 'core' Bane thing in 4e actually helps back that up (since Bane became multispheric and far more powerful then just the local Bane we know).
I got the idea from some thread a long time ago where someone was asking why Asmodeus really doesn't have any followers in the Realms (when plenty of other, lesser fiends do). It made me think, "maybe he does, he's just clever enough to disguise it" (because of the nature of Realmspace, and its importance to the multiverse as a whole).
That certainly wouldn't fit in with your thoughts on him being Gruumsh... or would it? Toward the end of 3e the Orcs weren't 'good' by any stretch of the imagination, BUT, they had started to behave awfully lawful (for orcs, anyway). Could the rise of Obould be tied to the rise of Bane as the new head of the Orcish pantheon? He did seem like an odd choice for Gruumsh to pick as a Chosen.
I've been staying quiet on this thread, of late, because the speculation has gone into areas that don't work for me... But this post makes me wonder: what if Gruumsh had been slain/absorbed by Asmodeus? It tosses a wrench into the whole Asmodeus/Azuth thing, but it would explain Obould a heck of a lot better than anything else I've seen or personally thought of. |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2015 : 05:08:00
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Baalzebul, Belial & Fierna, seem to fit the bill for the Vengeance-focused BANE in this campaign... After rereading Mephistopheles and his ally Dispater they actually seem like a better fit to side with the Elder Eye Ghaunadaur, since they are more a magic-focused.
Although the BANE=Asmodeus angle has a lot of merit... In this campaign I'm almost presenting BANE as a foil to Asmodeus. Framing BANE as the Tyrant chosen by the Mortals, against Asmodeus the Tyrant chosen by the Gods... This is in part, why BANE is encouraging the Zhentarim to work with, or at least tolerate the other adventuring organizations like the Harpers. This is also why he has brought the Orcs & Goblins to heel under his banner, by creating Malekith. Malekith is commanding the Orcs & Goblins to stop attacking Human settlements, and serve in the Zhentarim Legions to fight against the Fiendish, Undead, and Draconic threats to Faerun. BANE is expecting this strategy to sell an image of him as the saviour of Faerun, enable him to exact vengeance of the "evil" forces that have betrayed him over the years, while undermining the faith and image of the "good" gods...
I'm almost thinking of having BANE try and convince the people of Faerun that Asmodeus=AO, thereby conflating people's perceptions of good & evil. Since this would imply that the "good" gods are actually serving evil, and portray BANE the Tyrant as a "freedom fighter" for the mortal realm, since he stole the Tablets of Fate... |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
Edited by - Cyrinishad on 11 Aug 2015 14:50:35 |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2015 : 05:33:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I had toyed with the notion awhile back that Bane is Asmodeus - at least, the FR interpretation of him. The whole 'core' Bane thing in 4e actually helps back that up (since Bane became multispheric and far more powerful then just the local Bane we know).
I got the idea from some thread a long time ago where someone was asking why Asmodeus really doesn't have any followers in the Realms (when plenty of other, lesser fiends do). It made me think, "maybe he does, he's just clever enough to disguise it" (because of the nature of Realmspace, and its importance to the multiverse as a whole).
That certainly wouldn't fit in with your thoughts on him being Gruumsh... or would it? Toward the end of 3e the Orcs weren't 'good' by any stretch of the imagination, BUT, they had started to behave awfully lawful (for orcs, anyway). Could the rise of Obould be tied to the rise of Bane as the new head of the Orcish pantheon? He did seem like an odd choice for Gruumsh to pick as a Chosen.
I've been staying quiet on this thread, of late, because the speculation has gone into areas that don't work for me... But this post makes me wonder: what if Gruumsh had been slain/absorbed by Asmodeus? It tosses a wrench into the whole Asmodeus/Azuth thing, but it would explain Obould a heck of a lot better than anything else I've seen or personally thought of.
This is a really great point about Obould. I hadn't realized how much I had overlooked Obould as a shift toward a Lawful alignment orientation for the Orcs until now, but I think my oversight is directly tied to my 4th Edition campaign... Because in that campaign, the storyline was that the Uthgardt Barbarians, the Elves of Silverymoon, and King Obould forged an Alliance to defend each other from the emerging threats of the Shadowfell & the Feywild. One of the characters was a Half-Orc son of Obould, so this combination of factors definitely made me overlook Obould's broader impact of representing a shift in the Orcs from Chaotic Evil to Lawful Evil. |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2015 : 06:21:14
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| I'd not considered their shift as being towards lawful, either -- not until I read MT's post. But the shoe fits, so it sent my thinking in another direction. And that's the key to where my creativity is strongest: find the other angle to look at something. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2015 : 12:44:21
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Although ironicaly, Gruumsh was Lawfull Evil in first and second edition of d&d, and so was the majority of orcs...
Orcs were meant to represent a mindless horde aspect of Lawfull Evil, in the sense that one loses individuality, and forgets about ones own choice, as a part of such brutal horde.
Also, another idea could be that Eldath could use Gruumsh's death, to redeem more orcs. She allready has the ondonti orcs worshipping her. Alternately, Eldath could became the goddess of all good aligned goblinoids. That would also put her among Bane's and Malekith's enemies though. |
Edited by - Baltas on 26 Jul 2015 12:52:26 |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2015 : 14:38:04
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Interesting... Perhaps this campaign is a good opportunity to have the reborn Mystra encourage Eldath become the beacon of the good gods, since BANE is trying to undermine the integrity of the good gods and frame them as part of the cause of perpetual conflict & chaos.
Thanks for the insight on Obould, Wooly & Markustay. The events that played out in the transition from 4e to 5e in the Silver Marches, synch up nicely with the idea of aligning Obould with BANE... It also plays well with my ideas about Shargaas, indicating that he had started coordinating with Drow and anticipating Gruumsh's fall very early on... Perhaps Shargaas saw the alignment shift by Obould's influence back in the 3e time period, and immediately thought Gruumsh's days were numbered. |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
Edited by - Cyrinishad on 11 Aug 2015 14:52:02 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2015 : 15:13:51
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I also had a thought, back in the day, for Obould, that didn't require divine shuffling...
Scro.
If you're not familiar with scro, they were a Spelljammer race, descended from orcs. Thanks to a visionary leader that eventually became their deity, the scro went from being common orcs to a highly organized, militaristic society. They are educated, disciplined, and highly aggressive -- and they still hate elves, to the point that some scro learn elvish just to insult elves in their own tongue.
Appearance-wise, though, they look pretty much like regular orcs.
So a potential alternate spin that I came up with was that some scro landed on Toril during the Second Unhuman War. Maybe they were an advance force of some kind, maybe they were shipwrecked. Either way, they would up integrating with regular orcs, and then trying to push them down the same path that Dukagsh had once pushed his followers. Obould could even be a scro that disguises his heritage. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2015 : 16:11:10
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As for the whole Bane = Asmodeus thing, thats an over-simplification, really.
In my homebrewed Realms, I have it where Bane was a secret worshiper of Asmodeus, some 1000 years ago or so. Asmodeus wanted an 'in' into the realms, and Bane was already a tyrant and building an empire (around the Moonsea). And YES, I went with Bane being a half-orc, but an extremely brilliant one. In fact, he used that - that people underestimated him - during his rise to power.
Now, it was Bane's plan all along to simply use Asmodeus's help to acquire godhood - The Old Serpent may have whispered in his ear about the 'Lost Gods' and their power. By the same token, Asmodeus looked at Bane as a tool to get what he wanted - a foothold in the Forgotten Realms: He planned to eventually just take over Bane and use him as an alias. Whether Jergal was aware of all of this or not is up to you.
So, as the DM, you can go either way with this - Did Bane succeed and become SO powerful that Asmodeus could not take him over (he was far stronger then Asmodeus anticipated, plus the 'Godwall' still kept him from directly acting within Realmspace). Then you can go with my theory that Bane quickly decided to branch-out and become multispheric.
On the other hand, what if Asmodeus was successful? What if Bane ascended, and then just became a puppet of Asmodeus? Or worse, Asmodeus simply absorbed him and now had an alias to work under in the Realms? Can you just picture that 'bowling' game they all played? Jergal just looking at the three of them with almost pity, if he knew what was coming. He certainly wasn't going to stand in the way of Asmodeus... not in a direct confrontation, at any rate. This scenario actually simplifies the whole 'core Bane' strangeness - Asmodeus was ALWAYS multispheric, and maybe 'The Bane' is just his favorite alias to use on worlds where he is normally blocked. The big downside to this choice is that OUR Bane simply becomes one amongst many, and not all that important (which lessens FR lore in favor of Planer lore).
Tying this into the other thread, what would that mean for the Gruumsh/Bane connection? Is it Asmodeus trying to get the goblinoids to worship the Lord of the Nine? It would totally make sense if he was trying to become THE 'ultimate evil' in the multiverse (since most folks already consider him that, why not?) If others caught wind of what was going on - like the demons - would they not try to stop him? Could Cyric be a 'fix' for Asmodeus' power grabs? It would make for a very interesting campaign - 'good' and 'chaotic evil' working together to stop a tyrant from taken over everything. Imagine your PCs 'seeing' (in a vision/whatever) Graz'zt brokering a deal between an archangel and Lolth. 
That just tickles my nerd/DM bone in ways it shouldn't be tickled. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Jul 2015 16:16:15 |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2015 : 03:59:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I also had a thought, back in the day, for Obould, that didn't require divine shuffling...
Scro.
If you're not familiar with scro, they were a Spelljammer race, descended from orcs. Thanks to a visionary leader that eventually became their deity, the scro went from being common orcs to a highly organized, militaristic society. They are educated, disciplined, and highly aggressive -- and they still hate elves, to the point that some scro learn elvish just to insult elves in their own tongue.
Appearance-wise, though, they look pretty much like regular orcs.
So a potential alternate spin that I came up with was that some scro landed on Toril during the Second Unhuman War. Maybe they were an advance force of some kind, maybe they were shipwrecked. Either way, they would up integrating with regular orcs, and then trying to push them down the same path that Dukagsh had once pushed his followers. Obould could even be a scro that disguises his heritage.
Oh, wow! I'm glad you brought this up, Wooly. I had read about the Scro and Dukagsh, and thought they were excellent. I was trying to emulate some of their elements by having BANE take control of the Orcs & Goblins, heightening Hoar's influence on BANE, and conflating BANE & Gilgamesh... I was hesitant to bring Spelljammer into the campaign, but the idea that Obould's heritage originated from the Scro is excellent... It hadn't occured to me, because for whatever reason the Scro made me imagine Orcs that had embraced an almost Samurai-esque sense of themselves. (Perhaps it's because the Shou Lung are the primary Spelljammers from Toril). |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
Edited by - Cyrinishad on 11 Aug 2015 14:53:37 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2015 : 15:27:18
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Never a fan of the Scro (because I never cared for SJ). Making him a 'better type of Orc' makes some sense, though. He doesn't have to directly be a Scro - he could just be a 'throwback' because both his parents had some Scro ancestry.
Another option is using the Sharakim from Races of Destiny. I peg those guys as the breed that interacted with the dwarves in that weird city RAS wrote about (Baffenburg).
You could even connect them to the Scro - what if they were a VERY early scout force sent to check out Toril and got stranded? Then they make peace with the dwarves (somehow), and became the Sharakim. I suppose someone/something got annoyed about them and dwarves being friends and nuked that city (at least, that's the most logical conclusion - we never did learn more).
I personally think the Sharakim were an early branch of Orcs regardless, and the Ondonti could be yet another offshoot of them. On some worlds Orcs fell into savagery, but the Sharakim (and Scro, and Ondonti) is more like what the Orcs were meant to be like, before the universe handed them a 'bum deal'.
In the words of my favorite Orc, General Vrakk: "If you treat us like monsters, then we BE monsters!" |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2015 : 19:55:03
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Markustay, I'm on the same page with you on Spelljammer, in a general sense... Probably because I could never get past Space-Travel functioning the way it's presented in the setting. Portals and Planar Travel basically allows you to just have Space function the way it does in reality, and if you want to travel in Space the Portals can function exactly the same way as they did in "Stargate". Heck, the Realms literally did the "Stargate" thing with Mulhorand and Unther anyway.
There are a lot of creative lore-related elements I like about it, but I always want to make sure that anything I integrate into the Forgotten Realms doesn't undermine the setting. I like the Scro concept a lot, if presented in a way similar to the end of Battlestar Galactica... The Scro crash land and lose their tech, but integrate into the native Orcs, and make some shifts in the culture. That way the Space-Travel thing ends up being analogous to any another Ancient Empire influence, or Celestial/Fiendish influence, etc.
...In some ways I like the idea that the Seldarine were Aliens before the creation of Evermeet, more than I like the idea that they were Deities. It fits with my view of Corellon being the cause of more problems than he solves.
I looked through the info on the Sharakim, and the Ondonti, and I thought they might actually fit well with my tenative idea of Mystra and the "good" gods raising the importance of Eldath. |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2015 : 21:22:04
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Well, to be clear, there are theories the Seldarine are ascended members of LeShay/the Fey creator race...
Also, I had once a theory that Eldath had some hand in the formation of the Gatekeeper cuture of orcs on Eberron. Orcs in Eberron were thaught of druidism by Vvaraak, a Black Dragon. But Black Dragons are the Aquatic of Chromatic Dragons. So it would have sense if Vvaraak was a worshipper and/or proxy of Eldath. Maybe even a group of ondonti were send by Eldath in time and space, to intermingle with, and teach the native orcs of Eberron.
And Cyrinishad, if you're turned down by some of the more unscoientific elements of Spelljammer, you could check out Spelljammer: Shadow of the Spider Moon, from the issue 151 of Polyhedron magazine/Dungeon #92. It reimagines the Spelljammer campaign, as more scientificaly accurate, and you could use it as foundation to remake the rest of Spelljammer so. Diffrent Crystal Spheres, could be reimagined as diffrent galaxies, star systems, or even universes. The universe = Crystal Sphere aproach, while very big in scope, makes pretty much sense, especialy if one considers that paralell spheres to Oerth, like Aerth, worked like Paralell universes. |
Edited by - Baltas on 27 Jul 2015 21:47:03 |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2015 : 01:50:31
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| That's exactly how I approach the Spelljammer-Lore, Baltas. I just skip the Crystal Spheres & Wooden Ships in Space thing, since Portals and Plane-Shifting make it unnecessary anyway... I still like the Spelljammer ships as a concept for Fantastical Airships, but as more of an "In Atmosphere" and Plane-shifting vehicle. |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2015 : 06:38:52
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Grey Richardson and I had worked-out a different way of fixing it awhile back - where you were actually entering the Border Ethereal as you left the atmosphere. That way, you can keep all the 'magical thingumery' intact, and still have real, scientific space the way it ought to be. Thus, folks just thought they were 'flying through space', when in reality they were traveling aboard a ship that sailed between the planes.
The Border Ethereal would be the space within the Crystal Sphere, and if you left the Sphere you'd be in the Deep Ethereal, where the Phlogiston is. People who normally use the Ethereal don't encounter it because its deep 'in space' between worlds, and when mages enter the ethereal through spells its always on a world (so no phlogiston there).
The Crystal Spheres themselves are a bit harder to explain, but not impossible. They are a construct of the magical universe, not the physical (scientific) one, and thus only beings using magic to propel themselves through space would encounter it. As for Earth, you could just use the explanation in the World of Tiers series of novels - (D&D) Earth IS inside a vast Crystal sphere, along with the rest of the solar system. Just beyond the orbit of Pluto, all the stars and other celestial phenomena are just holograms on the inside of the shell, so humans would think they were in a limitless universe (there is no universe in those novels - just constructed worlds the 'gods' play in).
Or you could just say the Earth is in a separate dimension, in ever-expanding, enormous Crystal Sphere (that encompasses the entirety of our universe). DC comics used something akin to that - they have The Wall of the Source - basically am impenetrable barrier at the edge of the universe. Crystal spheres are sort of like demi-planes floating in the soup of the Prime Material plane, so Earth would be in its own Prime Material plane with different rules. You couldn't fly directly from one to the other without some dimension-hoping (magical OR technologically derived). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Jul 2015 06:42:20 |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2015 : 03:25:47
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Very cool. That's an interesting twist on the Spelljammer functionality. I'll have to give that some more thought.
...Circling back to the Asmodeus discussion...
I'm totally with you on Asmodeus & Graz'zt secretly working together. But, I want BANE and Asmodeus to be separate entities, and I'm always going to be biased and prioritize Realms-Lore over Planar-Lore... But, since we already know Asmodeus has an agreement with Jergal about access to the Fugue Plane. I dig the idea that Asmodeus weighed in on the outcome of the game... What if Asmodeus immediately mocks the Dead Three's newly attained godhood, by telling them their godhood is essentially meaningless since it's confined to the Realms, and subject to the whims of AO, but offers them "True" godhood by accessing the Multiverse... All they have to do is give him their Realms' Avatars, so that he can act within the Realms in their image. |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
Edited by - Cyrinishad on 11 Aug 2015 14:55:42 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2015 : 15:14:45
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That would be an interesting spin, but then you would have all three really be the same person, which doesn't make a lot of sense (in regards to the Avatar Crisis). Just making that deal with Bane might allow all options to work (perhaps Myrkul and Bhaal turned him down).
I came back to this scroll because I was doing some reading on the Anunnaki (Sumerian/Babylonian deities) and it seems Tiamat gave birth to the lot of them. 
So I got to thinking about my old theory of her and Bahamut being TRULY ANCIENT powers, and originally being chaotic. This would make sense in regards to the Anunnaki myths. The Anunnaki were the great-great grandchildren of Tiamat, so perhaps some of her earlier spawn are/were demon Lords (Lahamu* & Lahmu, 'the muddy ones')? Then when they were forced to have the chaos purged from them (probably by Ahriman and perhaps also Jazirian - maybe each did their chaotic counterpart). Then Tiamat gets 'imprisoned' in the Hells, where she resides 'till this day. Maybe thats why Ahriman and Jazirian withdrew from the world - they had absorbed that chaos into themselves and are now in a state of 'slumber' (stasis) in order to contain it). Asmodeus plants his flag in the body of Ahriman and begins the construction of the Hells (or the second Hel, if my other theory is right about the Abyss being the original one, until it was corrupted). Thus, Asmodeus is NOT an avatar of Ahriman as some believe - he just the ultimate opportunist.
I still have to wonder at who the first 'Prime Evil' was that was created by Cthon, that started this ball rolling. Since I have it where he cannot directly influence the Universe (except through psionics/insanity), then there had to be some extension of him already here in order to have created Tiamat and Bahamut (in response to Ahriman and Jazirian). I suppose 'Hastur the unspeakable' would be the best bet - his reptilian visage lends itself well to a being worshiped by some of the Creator Races, and being part of the Cthulhu cycle gives him that 'primordialness' we need. I can definitely see him as being the FIRST of the 'Elemental Evils', and the one to initiate the corruption of the two Drækons.**
In fact, it may be his essence that was shattered during the Godwar! Imagine him being the first psionic power - that would have left him open to an attack by Cthon. Maybe 'Ilsensine' is the Mindflayer name for Hastur. 
His fall into insanity could have been what drove them to stop being faithful to him.
*Perhaps 'Lahamu' is the Golarion/PF deity known as 'Lamashtu'?
**'Drækons' is a term I coined a long time to mean 'being of vast, elemental power'. Basically, a Primoridal, but ones more prone to energy forms then physical matter. Through the aeons the word has simplified to mean 'creature of unimaginable power', hence 'dragon'. The more physical elemental lords were known as Jotans (Jotuns), or (celestial) Titans, and has come down to us as the word 'giant' - a tremendous being. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Aug 2015 15:22:49 |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2015 : 19:57:30
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Ok, I see what you mean about that making all of them the same entity during the Avatar Crisis (I have to stop trying to think everything through in late night posts)... I like your idea that he made a deal with Asmodeus by himself, enabling him to access the multi-verse, in exchange for handing over his Avatar to Asmodeus...
Great insights on Tiamat and Bahamut, in a lot of ways it helps to explain her ability to have a foothold on so many different planes of existence... As well as her willingness to support Asmodeus in his rulership of the Nine Hells, while maitaining some independence from his control and only marginal involvement in the Blood War... because Asmodeus (like BANE) doesn't quite realize that she is an entity they can never fully control.
The idea that Bahamut is one of the Ancient Chaotic powers, and has kind of continually shifted away from that makes me like his concept as a deity a lot more than the kind of simplistic standard cliche' "good-guy paladin" god...
...Oh, and Ilsensine = Hastur is gold... |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
Edited by - Cyrinishad on 11 Aug 2015 14:57:32 |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2015 : 04:56:56
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I was flipping through Faiths & Avatars last night, and a couple of things dawned on me:
The idea that BANE's presence in the Realms is actually Asmodeus, through the Time of Troubles made even more sense given that BANE's Avatar was destroyed and recreated before Torm confronted it... And it makes AO's decision to resurrect Torm a completely logical choice, if AO realizes that it was actually Asmodeus that killed Torm's Avatar by circumventing AO's rules. So, AO is really just saving face by doing a quick "retcon"... It also helps justify why Cyric was granted BANE's portfolios by AO. To make sure Asmodeus couldn't keep siphoning Divine Energy and accessing the Realms... So, as was mentioned earlier, Cyric ends up being a "fix" for Asmodeus' power grabs... As usual, it's difficult for me to disagree with Markustay's musings.
I don't know if this idea has been kicked around in another scroll or not, but if we go with the whole Realms-BANE = Asmodeus idea until the end of ToT: Has anyone considered the idea that Iyachtu Xvim was actually the "Real" BANE the entire time, and that his BANE's rebirth through Xvim was just him regaining the right to use his name – Bane (perhaps a symbolic end to his agreement with Asmodeus)? What if the "tanr'ri mother" was just a euphamism for another deal that BANE made (with Graz'zt maybe...) after he gave up his Realms-Presence to Asmodeus? So, the "Real" BANE is able to re-enter the Realms under the name Iyachtu Xvim?
Part of the reason I'm floating the idea, is that the name Iyachtu Xvim makes some sense to me as a code name, given the way that I tend to frame the cosmology. Here are the elements I see in the name:
- His initials are IX, the roman numeral 9, which is the final number in the prime 10 sequence
- The remainder of the first name is Yachtu, obviously a yacht is the kind of ship a tyrant would own, but the interesting thing is that “U” is a symbol used to represent Potential Energy in equations
- The remainder of the last name is Vim, and as a word implicitly denotes Kinetic Energy
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To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
Edited by - Cyrinishad on 11 Aug 2015 15:00:04 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2015 : 17:27:16
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Thats some interesting stuff there about Xvim. I like the idea that our Bane was reborn in Xvim (a deific contingency plan?), and that Asmodeus made a grab for the portfolio during the ToT (and had maybe been impersonating Bane for quite some time). He'd be one of the very few 'cosmic entities' able to influence Shar, and I still feel she had a major hand in theft of the Tablets of Fate (her 'Black Chronology' foretold the coming of Cyric - what if Asmodeus had been behind the creation of that? Manipulating the other master manipulator?)
Other stuff:
While I've spent an UNHEALTHY amount of time theorizing over cosmologies/mythologies and blending every last scrap of scify/fantasy lore together into a giant stewpot of seething chaos, I am constantly changing my own concepts based on the great ideas I read by others. I am a furnace and everyone else is the fuel. I mostly just synthesize stuff - at this point I am not sure if I've ever had an original idea. LOL
Just look at what I spend my like working on - drawing pictures of a world made-up by 'some other guy'. Also, I think pointing-out my sig at the bottom is in order. If everyone agreed with me, I'd never have any 'occasion to rise to'. This thread inspired me to go in directions I hadn't considered before.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Aug 2015 17:28:47 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2015 : 19:58:53
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So now you've got me thinking about 'the big picture' again.
Asmodeus:
Originally just a archangel who was in charge of a 'special project'. Think of him and his underlings as the 'black ops' of the heavens. His purpose was to infiltrate the other side during the 'Godwar', and he was quite good at it. Perhaps TOO good. After a time it was discovered that he was not only 'uncovering' the bad deities (evil plots), but through his machinations he was actually getting some of them to 'turn bad'. He would take gods that were 'sitting on the fence' in the war (or even ones that were on the right side), and feeding them just enough half-truths (and lies) to get them to 'turn'. When confronted, he explained that "if they were that easy to tempt, then they were potential threats to begin with". Some gods excepted that, but others were made quite uneasy by his rationalization. By the end of the war many, MANY celestial beings that were on the 'good' side had wound up on the losing side, and the gods were stymied on what to do with them all. Asmodeus stepped-up again (as per the what happened in FC2:TotNH) and offer to build them a prison - Hel.
Hel & Hell:
This can go either way - I like the idea that 'Hel' was the original and it became The Abyss after it was corrupted from without (the Dark God). The Dark God may have been the first to be placed here, in the deepest level, and thats how Hel became corrupted (he is like a 'thin spot' in the fabric of reality from which Far Realms energy seeps through). After Asmodeus discovers the plot to take Hel away from him, he leaves Hela (his daughter?) behind to rule it while he starts to build his new Hell (in the pit created by the 'casting down' of Ahriman during the war). Eventually Hela discovers she has been tricked, and with the help of Annam 'All father' (Odin's Giantish name), manages to break-off an uncorrupted piece of Hel and create a new demiplane with it - the Grey Wastes. Several other neutrally-minded deities join her in this endeavor (like Hades). You can use this or just toss it out - its not really necessary for the rest.
Asmodeus Rising:
Now fully a 'god' in his own right, with armies of underlings who venerate him, Asmodeus begins to turn his eye on the multiverse, and mortals. Mortals somehow can provide the same amount (if not more!) 'divine energy' that cosmic beings can (think of 'souls' as rechargeable batteries). The only drawback being that one had to have a 'mortal soul' to establish the necessary linkage to the mortals and siphon their power (worship energy). He would need deities - ascended mortals - for this task. So Asmodeus embarks on a plan to take-over the faithful on various worlds by methods he is very familiar with - whispering falsehoods and half-truths into the ears of the other god's followers. He is wildly successful, and soon has a few worlds under his belt, as he becomes the 'supreme God' of each of these spheres, he leaves behind a 'Guardian'; someone he can trust because he has imbued them with a small part of his own 'essence' (think of it as a very long leash). For example, on the world of Orconia, he leaves the dark archfey Gru-Mass in charge of his church (all of this later comes back and bites-him-in-the-arse). The other High Gods/Overgods become aware of what he is doing and put certain rules into place in many of the spheres, blocking-out Asmodeus from entering. From this they learn about banning other gods, and this becomes a common practice in some spheres, to keep the pantheons stable (READ: to keep those in charge, IN CHARGE). The only worlds Asmodeus then finds himself capable of taking are ones not too many gods wanted in the first place, and so he must devise new methods to extend his power.
'The Banes'
Asmodeus soon learns that the ban on him directly entering a crystal sphere does not stop his underling from doing so - albeit they must be summoned by gullible mortals to cross the threshold. By using these minions to manipulate certain mortals, he can create 'The Banes'; literally, 'the bane of mortalkind' - gods of his own making, who he could nurture and have rise to power, until he was ready to take control himself and just make them his 'local governor' (in much the same way that he already had several 'spheric guardians' in his pocket). He had his devils teach mortals about necromancy and becoming liches, and by using the greatest of these he could 'sponsor' other mortals into becoming these Banes he needed. All of these ever-rising underlings would keep him in a state of constant elevation, until he became the Supreme Being of the multiverse!
The 'Crown Jewel'
There was one world whispered about - a world where the first mortals were fashioned. Although all worlds were tiny, imperfect reflections of The True World (which was destroyed at the end of the Godwar), this particular one seemed to have been the 'heart' of that first world (the Heart of Ymir). It still contained conduits (power Wells) to many other planes of existence! So soaked with power was this one planet that its own gods threatened to tear it apart, and so its guardian (Overgod) split the world of Abeir-Toril into two worlds to keep it safe. The one - Abeir - had no deities (ascended mortals), and thus Asmodeus was able to circumvent some of the rules and influence creatures of that world through his servants, including one that showed promise - Zehir. The other half, however - the half that held most of the raw power - was Toril. It was a world coveted by many gods from many pantheons, and nearly all had tried to gain a foothold there a one time or another. Bits and pieces of 'forgotten' pantheons lie everywhere... and yet, he was still blocked at every turn. The jealous gods of that world were used to conflict with other divine beings, and were on constant alert for any 'new cults' that arose, squashing them, or rolling them into their own faiths. He needed a plan that would be subtle - even more subtle then he was used to acting. One that would take milenia to unfold...but the prize would be worth it! He would need the help of several others he had 'worked with' before - Tiamat, and the crazed dark goddess Shar. The Orcs on this world were of no use to him; not yet, anyway. They had begun to worship a different aspect of Gruumsh - one that was actually another god - Talos. What appeared to be a minor stormgod from some other other pantheon was masquerading as Gruumsh on this world, and had gotten quite powerful doing so! Asmodeus' first order of business, then, was to find a way to bring a TRUE aspect of grumsh into the Realms, and he manipulated certain mortals into opening a gate to the Orcish homeworld. In the ensuing conflict, many gods were killed by the arriving Orc deities, and soon after Gruumsh took control of his faithful from Talos (he actually absorbed him... which changed him just enough for Gruumsh to start acting independently of Asmodeus as time went on).
The Deal:
With Gruumsh beginning to flex his independent muscles, Asmodeus looked for another pawn, and espied a fallen and weak ex-goddess of disease looking for a sponsor to help her back to godhood. Not only that, but she had a sister who was still a powerful goddess in The Realms. And so it was that Asmodeus (through his minions) managed to manipulate Kiputytto into finding the lost gods, and she in-turn solicited the help of 'the Dark Three'. However, he did not foresee just how clever and evil they were, and after using her for information, they turned on his pawn and entombed her beneath a swamp, in stasis. YES, he liked this group INDEED. At least two of them had the makings of his 'Bane'. At first he leaned toward the necromancer of the group - Myrkul. A cold and calculating individual who was already used to wearing a crown. But then there was the other - a half-orc - who's stratagems and cunning had out-witted several 'Lost Gods' already. And he could eventually be used to get Gruumsh back in line. Before the final phase of their plan - to storm the gates of the afterlife and kill Jergal - began, Asmodeus approached them en route and offered them a deal. He would get Jergal to concede his power (Jergal had already planned to do so, so Asmodeus was really offering them nothing) if one of them would become his 'Bane' - his deific presence on this world. Bhaal refused immediately, and so did Myrkul after a time, but the other seemed deep in thought. He said, "having power but having a master is no power at all. Offer me something more, and I will consider". Asmodeus thought quickly, and offered him something else that would cost him nothing, and maybe even grant him more power in the future - to become a multiversal power. He would show him worlds that he could take as his own (those unwanted ones mentioned earlier), sponsor him, and set him as being 'THE Bane' of the universe. All he had to do was give him just one Avatar for use after their encounter with Jergal was complete. Not knowing Jergal had already been willing to step down, they agreed, and after the 'contest' the new 'Bane' was born. Before leaving Toril behind (and Asmodeus with a puppet-aspect of himself), Bane also gave a shard of his divine essence to his newly-born son, about which Asmodeus had no idea.
Treasure Denied:
Asmodeus left his Bane aspect on Toril to its own devices for a time (he had become embroiled in more important matters elsewhere). He would occasionally give it guidance, but allowed it to operate independently until he was ready to make his ultimate move - challenge the Overgod of the sphere and force his way into the pantheon. Until he was ready, he did not want Ao (or anyone else) realizing who was 'the power behind the throne'. His ultimate plan was to simply use-up the Avatar left him and take its place, and that of the other 'Dark gods' he had help create. He would stage a rebellion in the local pantheon, involving all the gods, but to do that he would need the help of local powers. To this end he enlisted the help of a powerful mortal known as Iouluam, who sent 'strange visions' to a famous and brilliant seer known as Augathra... soon to be known as 'Augathra the Mad'. And so the 'Black Chronology' was written, and hid-away. In time the followers of Shar would discover it, and read into it what he expected them to - that 'Shar' would rise and become a great power (again) in The Realms. The 'ascension', of course, was that of himself, but he would allow them to believe it was their goddess. The wheels were set in motion: He had his 'Bane' and convinced the other two 'dark gods' to steal Ao's Tablets of Fate, which would temporarily nullify his rules for Realmspace. However, the tablets were false - Ao saw the machinations of all involved (there were 'wheels within wheels' even Asmodeus did not know about). He had long ago merged the real tablets (physics of Realmspace) with the crystal Sphere itself, so one could never be destroyed without the other (hence, all the writing on the inside of the Sphere). The false tablets were stolen, and Ao punished all the gods for their bad behavior (for even the 'good gods' were somewhat at-fault, having been lax in their own duties). In the end, neither Asmodeus nor Shar (nor Lolth, Tiamat, Jergal, etc, and all the others who had their own schemes) were successful - a buffoon of a rogue ascended and was given the mantle of godhood, and handed several important portfolios. He was not chosen for his competency, but rather for his burgeoning insanity, which included an exaggerated sense of self-worth and conceit that could NOT be manipulated by ANYONE... including Asmodeus. Unfortunately, even Ao underestimated just how much hubris Cyric truly had, and how deep his insanity would take him.
The Return of Bane 1.0
After the destruction of his avatar, the contingencies Bane had set in place began to take effect, with Iyachtu Xvim slowly becoming his father, and taking over his church. When Bane burst forth from the chest of Xvim, it was an avatar completely in the control of the original Bane of Realmspace - now a mutispheric entity of some power, fully capable of challenging Asmodeus on his own. if Asmodeus isn't careful, it may be Bane taking him over instead, some time in the future... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Aug 2015 16:49:14 |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2015 : 14:25:37
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 Phenomenal Markustay, simply phenomenal.
This brings it all together... I wasn't entirely on board with BANE's original identity being a half-orc until I read through this, but I'm completely sold on it now. (I am going to edit my posts and use all caps for the "true" BANE, just to be consistent). The reason I'm sold on it now, is that I realized it actually synthesizes the overlap Gilgamesh perfectly... by making BANE a bastard son of Gilgeam, so his Orc heritage is with his mother. So, BANE's mother names him after both his father Gilgeam, and their god Gruumsh... Gilgamesh
...And this also has the potential to explain why Obould Many-Arrows has such a "Lawful" influence. By making him a descendant of BANE's mother. Which would further justify BANE's position in my home game (BANE commanded the Zhentarim and the cities of the Moonsea to side with the Harpers and the "good" gods to defeat the Shades). Since this would also mean that Lolth & Shar nearly wiped out his Mother's mortal descendants during the Darkening by trying to eliminate Obould's family. While outside of Realmspace, BANE would have seen all of the "mistakes" that Corellon's Elves & the Imperial Elven Navy made throughout the Galaxy (and may have supported Lolth against Corellon, perhaps seeing her as yet another of Corellon's victims). BUT, upon his return to Toril & witnessing the near genocide of his mortal bloodline, it would cement his perception both Corellon & Lolth are nothing but two sides of the same coin.
Another gem from your musings on The Deal is Kipputytto. This makes Talona's perpetual loyalty to BANE even more palatable, since Kipputytto would want to lay claim to Talona's divine might... Suddenly, BANE's accumulation of godly allies starts looking not only like a quest for Divine Vengeance, but the forging of a Divine Empire to oppose the eternal machinations of Asmodeus. And if BANE can help Kelemvor defeat all the other "evil" gods, Toril will become BANE's URUK. |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
Edited by - Cyrinishad on 11 Aug 2015 15:02:37 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2015 : 16:35:19
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Yeah, I always thought he looked like a half-orc, and making him one would allow for other connections (some of which you've established). It also helped me fix some inconsistencies about when the orc pantheon had entered The Realms. All of this also helps us make our bane into 'THE Bane' - the original, the one that 4e introduced in core, and puts him on-par with Asmodeus (evil manipulator-wise), without actually making him Asmodeus.
I included Iouluam because we have some lore about necromancers having helped create Bane, so I wanted to fold that in, and also because Iouluam is an 'unknown quantity'. Due to his nature (and obviously vast psionic powers), he should also have a connection to 'The Dark God' and the Far Realms (although what that connection is, and how deep it goes, I leave open). What Asmodeus didn't understand is that the visions sent Auglathra were real - they were just from an alternate branch of prophesy that 'should have never been'. This means that Iouluam can do something akin to what Szass Tam did in the Haunted Lands trilogy - 'see' into alternate timelines. You have to have an insanely strong willpower (mind), and also a 'touch of death' (be on the border between worlds) to pull that ability off (without going completely insane). Iouluam was playing his own game as well.
Plus, I just really dig saying 'Iouluam'.
The reason why I included my Kiputytto lore is because it was part of a fix for some other odd FR lore. I extended that 'fix' just for fun and have her be part of 'The Dark Three' (four) because as an old-school RPGer, I just love the idea the group was a core D&D group - a fighter, a wizard, a rogue, and a cleric. It just adds a little bit of 'cosmic synchronicity' to the whole thing.
More fan-lore:
When the Netherese empire fell, 'high' Netheril had been worshiping the ancient goddess Kiputytto - a power from a pantheon the original Gur people worshiped (and the Gur were the proto-Raumvari people who migrated across the north of the Eastern heartlands from the Taan region and settled in and around the fertile Anauroch basin). The 'low' Netherese - those not 'of the blood' of High Netheril - worshiped another ancient power (from the Cortae/Talfir pantheon) - Talona. The fall of Netheril allowed the two to finally end their dispute, in a great battle that would destroy the two cities (remaining) that was the basis for their faiths.
First one, then the other, used their divine powers to raise the rivers and cause the waters to rise around the two cities (creating the two western Cormyr swamps). The stagnant waters mixed with the dirt and sewage of the settlements, and caused rampant disease, killing-off most of the populations. As the cities sank into the newly-created swamps, Talona used the last of her power to create the ultimate disease/poison - The Mortality Plague - and used it on Kiputytto, causing her to lose her divine connections (basically, she unascended). Her sister Loviatar became aware of what was happening, and whisked her now-mortal sister away and hid her from Talona's final blow. Talona then became the ONLY power of disease and poison in the region, and began rebuilding her church from there.
Kiputytto spent some time in her sister's realm with revenge burning in her sickly heart. She managed to get a few cults started back on Toril (perhaps with her sister's help), in places where Talona's followers would not find them. She had worked her way back up to demi-power status and re-entered the realms, only to be hoodwinked by Asmodeus (who promised her great power) into meeting with the Dark Three and providing them with information about gods and the cosmology that mortals weren't privy to.
It was actually Loviatar who saved her sister a second time - the 'death blows' simultaneously dealt her by the Dark Three would have finished her for good, if Loviatar had not placed her in stasis the exact moment before death, and whisked her away to her ancient sunken cathedral below the swamp. She entombed her therein, hoping to find a solution to the problem at some point in the future... until all of that was resolved by the Time of Troubles. Ao healed and released Kiputytto, to play his game with the other Avatars.
When Kiputytto was killed a third and final time by Talona, her mortal spirit was sent to The Fugue, until Cyric took control of the afterlife, at which time all the people who died during the ToT were sent to his realm. It was during this initial period - when Cyric was still learning his abilities - that Loviatar burst in and demanded her sister's soul back from him (that scene on pg.65 of The Complete Book of Necromancers). After this, Cyric vowed to never be cowed by ANYONE ever again. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2015 : 17:02:15
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I think I'm going to keep ruminating a bit on the concepts surrounding Cyric & the Supreme Throne until I see how the "Out of the Abyss" adventure series starts to play out. Fortunately, it seems that my players are not planning on trying to go anywhere near Hillsfar. So, hopefully all the events in that adventure series can play out as written and be incorporated into my home campaign.
But, now that the lore surrounding BANE has been ironed out to create a multi-versal, multi-edition synthesis, that maintains the Realms as a sort of "nexus" of realities. My thoughts have shifted a bit towards the possibility of creating other multi-versal connections, and the "return" of the Realms gods seems like a prime opportunity. So, what if the "returned" Realms gods aren't actually back from the dead? And are other multi-versal gods or entities capitalizing on a dead deities' "brand name"?
This plays into an additional rationale for why BANE wouldn't want to join up with Bhaal and Myrkul this time around... And since BANE has already had the multi-versal experience, perhaps he recognised that Bhaal and Myrkul weren't the Bhaal and Myrkul that he knew.
So, the Deities I'm rolling around in my head as possibilities for this scenario are probably pretty obvious...
The following are gods that "returned" during the Sundering, and may actually be different powers assuming a dead or lost gods identity:
1. Bhaal
2. Myrkul
3. Moander
4. Leira
5. Helm
6. Amaunator
7. Talos
8. Azuth
9. Ibrandul
... and I think that the Angharradh scenario makes the deities involved in that, possibilities as well:
10. Angharradh
11. Akadi
12. Selune
13. Sune
I've probably forgotten a deity or two for this scenario, so if anyone thinks of one I missed, I'll edit this post and add it to the list. I'll start musing about some of the deities listed in my next post.
EDIT: The subsequent musings about Gond made me realize I may not have been as clear in this post as I should have been (although I'm quite happy about the speculative lore we came up with about Gond)... and I've adjusted this post to try and be more specific. |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
Edited by - Cyrinishad on 27 Aug 2015 20:19:43 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2015 : 12:13:10
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Hmmm, I think you migh want to use Gond, he's an interesting fellow. His worshippers, are known to go with lethal action against those who speak against the advancement of science.
Gond also might have been connected to Imaskar, as one of the gods they worshipped, before they abandonned religion althogether.
Gond is after all, the state god of Lantan, were his faith is strongest, and the Lantan language, was said to be in Imaskari language family...
Gond is also known and worshipped among the Durpari as Zionil, and was so aparently for a long time. The Imaskari were also in fact, stated to have started out as an Durpari tribe.
Th name Zionil, also sounds pretty similar to Enlil.
Although I doubt Gond would be Enlil, as they are very different. Enlil's brother Enki on the other hand, was the Sumerian god of crafts, creation and inteligence, among things, pretty similary to Gond.
Enki also was said to one of the Sumerian gods that didn't go to fight Imaskar, and later form the Untheri pantheon. But maybe he didn't go, as he allready sent an aspect? That, and he didn't desire the fall of Imaskar?
Enki was allways characterised as closer to humanity, than other gods, sharing technology with humans, and protecting them from gods.
So maybe Enki/Gond, helped the at least in part the Imaskari to advance, and supported them despite their flaws. Maybe Imaskari were an attempt by Gond/Enki, to create a society of mortals, who would not have to really on gods? While the Imaskari were flawed morally, Gond/Enki might have hoped they would "grow up" over time. |
Edited by - Baltas on 23 Aug 2015 15:50:57 |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2015 : 17:02:07
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Thanks for that insight, Baltas. And for reminding me that I had aligned Gond with the returned BANE as well... If we draw parallels to that kind of an origin for Gond/Zionil, it helps justify why he would now move away from his historic allegiance to Oghma and side with BANE.
I like the connection to Enlil, but since "Zion" is a reference to a city perhaps the adopted name "Zionil" is a reference to Enlil as the deity's father, and to the deity's original influence as a god of Cities. Therefore, Zionil could originally be Enlil's son: Ninurta. Who happens to have some myths that are parallel to Gilgamesh...
I'm going to have to keep kicking the Enlil/Enki connection around in my head for a while...
...as for the other "dead" gods that have returned, I have started considering making a connection to a certain god that may fit well as the power that AO answers to... ANUBIS. |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2015 : 17:22:05
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Interesting idea with Gond/Zionil, being Ninurta. Especially that while Ninurta was Enlil's son, he seemed to be brought up by Enki.
Anubis is also an interesting, as he indeed is Guardian of Dead Gods in Planescape.
Another interesting bits about Durpar:
-They originally worshipped monotheisticaly Anu in the 1rst edition, but it was later retconned to Adama. The concept of Adama is closer to the Hindu Brahman, or Gnostic Pleroma/Monad. But in Hinduism and Vedic beliefs, "Anu", is also the name for the concept of the Atom, which also thought as the most basic element of Brahman.
-The Adama religion was founded by Satama. While the name appears to be connected to Siddhartha Gautama(Buddha), it also possibly connects to title of Enlil, Satam.
And another bit, that somewhat confimes that Tiamat might have become lawful, due to absorbing Azharul(who was probably Lawful Evil), as Tiamat's aligement was described as Chaotic Evil in the Tyranny of Dragons.
[Edit]
If Enlil became the mortal Satama, and Bane also at one time discarted divinity to become a god again, it would be interesting. In Mystara, if I remember right, one path to become an Old One(The Power beyond Powers/Overgod analogue), was claiming the highest form of Immortal status(the equivalent of godhood), disarding it, and being incarnated as a mortal. Then as as a mortal, becoming a Immortal again... |
Edited by - Baltas on 23 Aug 2015 17:39:20 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2015 : 18:13:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
...as for the other "dead" gods that have returned, I have started considering making a connection to a certain god that may fit well as the power that AO answers to... ANUBIS.
If I was going to focus on who Ao answered to, I'd go for Ptah, myself... Because in Spelljammer lore, he's the one deity that is "universal" -- his clerics can receive spells in all spheres. Almost all other powers are limited to just one sphere... And his followers believe that he created all of the crystal spheres.
So, for my money, if I had to name Ao's boss, it would be Ptah.
YMMV, of course. |
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