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Driekan
Acolyte
Brazil
4 Posts |
 Posted - 30 May 2015 : 17:26:02
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These questions have been burning in my mind for a while, and now that an actual prospect for a 5E campaign is something that exists, they have become twice as important... I will launch with the first question, then go through the facts that first made it a thing for me.
Is magic without the weave (Read: 4E) easier/better/stronger?
The notion may seem absurd to the face of it, given how restricted the spellcasting classes were in 4E as compared to previous (and following) editions, but some things need to be taken in mind:
1. The Wizard class in 4E is clearly not meant to represent every arcane spellcaster in the world ever. You will find in novels and in humanoid NPC stats tons of spells and magical effects which are not listed anywhere in the system. That class is merely 'the default adventuring wizard';
2. Pre-Spellplague magic took millenia to get where it was. Whether you consider the Empire of Magic Netheril to be canon or not, the fact stands that it took a long time, with the participation of some big-time geniuses, the aid of an active goddess and the teaching of elves and other races for humanity to get to the magic of 1e/2e/3e. The magic of 4e got where it was in under a century (Considering that for the first decade or two people just didn't know what was going on OR were too busy dying to do much research);
3. A couple of rituals from the Campaign Setting book in 4E, together, very much reproduce a 10th circle spell, without the need for a Mythallar (You could still install one if you wanted, and benefit from quasi-magic items. You just don't NEED one). Apparently, this magic peaks higher, too.
My first conclusion (Which I hope can be proved wrong) should be clear by now: Magic without the Weave and without Mystra is obviously superior. With a few more centuries for it to develop, it would likely blow the old form of magic out of the water in every measurable way. Which leads to the second question:
Once the Weave is re-established, can an individual opt out? Can people still practice magic the other way, or does the Weave block that somehow?
I expect this would be a very popular choice in the realms, especially for human wizards who never even experienced the other form of magic in their lifetime.
I also expect, if this is not a choice... the Chosen would likely have murderous wizards trying to stop them every step of the way while trying to re-establish the Weave (Which, to people's perspective, is something of a prison for their magic).
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2015 : 19:01:58
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IIRC, in ''Magic of Faerun'' it is said the Weave doesn't exclude the existence of ''raw magic''. On the contrary, it is a construct that prevents it from ''overloading'' stuff and from quickly dissipating and fading away in a large burst, it is what allows magic to be actually wielded by non deities. On Toril mortals have begun to use magic (that was not linked to other deities) with the birth of Mystryl, their ability to use it is linked to the existence of the Weave and when casting spells, they draw upon it, whether they are aware of it or not (to my understanding it's almost natural for casters to draw upon the Weave, so wizards and others who already can cast with its damaged version should have no problems with it being restored). The Weave allows ''safety'' of use combined with the power of ''raw magic'', the only limit is imposed by the ban of Mystra.
Also, AFAIK (correct me if I'm wrong) when the Spellplague happened, the Weave wasn't completely destroyed. It actually underwent a process of renewal (which is actually part of a cycle, and which Mystra had to let happen with her reduction to a vestige). However, during said process, mortals still casted through what was left of the Weave (since, as I've said, in Magic of Faerun it is said that mortals' ability to use magic depends on the existence of the Weave. Unless this was retconned), so it wasn't a reinvention but an adaptation. In short, I think that mortal casters (and gods too) should be happy that the Weave is being restored. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 30 May 2015 19:17:43 |
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Driekan
Acolyte
Brazil
4 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2015 : 19:35:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
IIRC, in ''Magic of Faerun'' it is said the Weave doesn't exclude the existence of ''raw magic''. On the contrary, it is a construct that prevents it from ''overloading'' stuff and from quickly dissipating and fading away in a large burst, it is what allows magic to be actually wielded by non deities. On Toril mortals have begun to use magic (that was not linked to other deities) with the birth of Mystryl, their ability to use it is linked to the existence of the Weave and when casting spells, they draw upon it, whether they are aware of it or not (to my understanding it's almost natural for casters to draw upon the Weave, so wizards and others who already can cast with its damaged version should have no problems with it being restored). The Weave allows ''safety'' of use combined with the power of ''raw magic'', the only limit is imposed by the ban of Mystra.
Also, AFAIK (correct me if I'm wrong) when the Spellplague happened, the Weave wasn't completely destroyed. It actually underwent a process of renewal (which is actually part of a cycle, and which Mystra had to let happen with her reduction to a vestige). However, during said process, mortals still casted through what was left of the Weave (since, as I've said, in Magic of Faerun it is said that mortals' ability to use magic depends on the existence of the Weave. Unless this was retconned), so it wasn't a reinvention but an adaptation. In short, I think that mortal casters (and gods too) should be happy that the Weave is being restored.
Should the assumption then be that a damaged weave is superior for wielding magic than a perfect one? I say this due to the usage of effectively 10th circle spells, and due to the huge bulk of magic that was created with it in less than a century, as compared to the millenia it took to arrive at what was available prior to the spellplague.
Just to pull from another source, the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting 4E has a few relevant points:
- The glossary entry for The Weave has "A term for magic; once used to mean magic mediated by Mystra", which seems to imply the magic of that period does not use it;
- Multiple mentions throughout of the Weave being broken, or collapsing, with no concept of its pieces being used by Wizards of that day;
- The paragraph describing magic items describes how their creation relied on the weave, but 'permanent access to magic was built into such items when they were created', and thus they still operate, again indicating they do not require the Weave at all;
- The paragraph describing magical creatures mentions that those who relied on the Weave "[...] found themselves powerless in the Spellplague's wake. Some never regained their abilities. Others attuned themselves to the new magical environment[...]", implying the same thing.
- An out-of-world infobox indicates that "For eons, magic in Toril was focused through the Weave, controlled by the goddess Mystra. Although Netherese wizards of ancient days learned the truth, most people believed that magic would not be possible without the deity's existence. However, the death of Mystra gave the lie to that belief. Now the term "Weave" is just another name for magic, if it is used at all." That... is far more explicit.
It seems to me that "Broken pieces of the weave being used" is not the intended interpretation of 4E magic.
It is also relevant to note that this question is very much reliant on the In-Character perception of things. Put yourself in the shoes of a person within this world, who is seeing the effects of these rules, not the rules themselves. From this perspective... A person would merely know that their whole lives, Wizards could cast spells with virtually no restriction (a couple minutes' rest between castings for some, a few hours for a few, rarer ones), and now they can't. How would they react to this?
EDIT: Final paragraph added, one more quote added |
Edited by - Driekan on 30 May 2015 19:49:13 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2015 : 19:50:25
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Then there's a contradiction between the 3e Magic of Faerun and the 4e FRCS, which is not really surprising...
quote:
The birth of the being then known as Mystryl did more
than just balance the war between the sisters of light and
darkness. Her very existence changed the reality of the universe
by creating the Weave, the conduit that allows creatures
to use magic. Suddenly, rather than magic being
restricted to just the deities, any creature with the talent or
training could draw upon the power of magic through the
Weave. When sentient creatures appeared on Toril, some of
them learned to use the Weave while shamans and clerics
drew their magic directly from deities. Acknowledgement
of her gift led to worship, and Mystryl drew power from
that, becoming one of the more powerful deities.
quote:
Raw magic exists in Faerūn, but it is a powerful and dangerous
force that can easily destroy even a patient and skilled mortal.
It is locked away inside all matter and difficult to access. Most
spellcasters instead draw upon magic through the controlled
and relatively safe magic accessed through the Weave.[...]
The Weave acts as both a barrier and a gate between raw
magic and the world. With the Weave in place, mortals can
access magic and are protected from the harmful effects of
contacting raw magic while still able to tap its refined energy.
With the Weave gone, raw magic quickly dissipates from the
world, but only after disrupting existing magic and lashing
out at nearby magical conductors.[...]
Spellcasters, knowingly or not, cause spells to work by
drawing power from the Weave, adjusting the balance of
energy so that the power of the Weave comes forth and is
shaped by their actions and will. When the Weave is damaged
by reckless spellcasting or magical disaster, it can be
torn, shredded, or destroyed, leaving dead magic and wild
magic areas.
If the Weave was actually gone, according to this, magic itself would have dissipated from the world.
In short, to my understanding, the Weave doesn't limit the power that can be wielded (in fact, spells of level greater than 10th were possible in the past and would still be, if Mystra didn't explictly prohibite that) and it is easier to use than raw magic (and its very existence seems to be the reason mortal can tap into magic). I talked about using what was left of the Weave (which -together with Mystra- actually underwent a process of renewal during the Spellplague, as explained in ''Elminster Enraged'') because it would explain the contradiction between two canon sources. Perhaps the reason why wizards/creatures were powerless at the beginning of the Spellplague is that they still didn't know how to use a shredded Weave and that this is an ability/technique developed to adapt to the new era. While the knowledge spread among humanoid spellcasters, maybe other creatures never learned to use a torn Weave.
Either way, I feel that it would be best to bring this matter directly to Ed, here: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19841
On a side note, having groups of wizards that feel that the Weave is a prison to their magic and playing out the conflict between Mystra with her church and those spellcasters is a cool idea. So, if you want the Weave to take that role and enjoy the story that could come from it, then IMO you should do it regardless. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 30 May 2015 20:00:22 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2015 : 22:03:44
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| My personal viewpoint is this. The raw magic is more powerful and near limitless, but its not as easy to shape. Thus, using the weave gives one the ability to manipulate spells into more flexible contingencies, into more flexible defenses, etc.... So, for some people, they may prefer magic without the weave (the ones that just want to blast and blast)... and others who want defenses in place or intricate magical designs won't. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2015 : 22:30:27
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From what I recall of discussions it went something like this.
The Weave tends to be the easy way to access magic use, that there always was things like name magic, token magic, Elven High Magic and unnamed magic that certain races or classes could access that did not use the Weave at all.
Clearly raw magic would tend to be the same as Wild Magic where unexpected results could occur. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2015 : 09:05:59
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Driekan sorry, I didn't see your edit before.
Your last quote kind of resolves the conflict between what stated in Magic of Faerun and 4e FRCS, but does that by basically being a retcon (as far as I can see and know, that is). The fact that the birth of Mystryl was what allowed mortals to use magic, or the fact that without the Weave, raw magic is supposed to dissipate after bursting out) is still in conflict with the more recent lore. If you take an uncertain (mortals') perspective (which the quote you posted seems to), you could even say that casting ''by raw magic'' is the same as casting by ''Weave-strands'' and that mortals thought that it was different because they believed that Mystra was dead and the Weave absent. The bit about netherese arcanists knwoing ''the truth'' comes as something new to me, though. Does the 4e FRCS expand on it?
Either way, about your point concerning in-character perspective, what I've said in the other posts still stands. The Weave allows ease of use of magic, while still allowing the use of the power that ''raw magic'' offers (I mean, you could literally become a god by a Weave-spell). Mystra's ban (which happened to avoid stuff like Karsus' avatar) still allows for ''epic'' spells (on a side note, to my understanding, in the casting of spells that require a Mythallar, the latter acts more like a power source to sustain the effect, rather than being what allows it to happen) and ''in-world'' almost the entirety of spellcasters can't use spells that are more powerful than what allowed by Mystra (and those who have the potential to be able to do that are just the ''big guns'', like Tam), so they would hardly know about that ban (which wouldn't change much, since you said that some 4e rituals allowed for 10th circle spells-like effect and those should be possible with thee Wevae) and just experience magic becoming easier and safer to access, which is a boon rather than a limitation. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 31 May 2015 09:23:53 |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2015 : 12:54:27
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| I kinda like the idea that post spellplague magic was cast through a damaged weave rather than using raw wild magic. It explains why casters had to make adjustments to their casting and not start from scratch. It also explains why so many spells were available after only a hundred years, they still had knowledge of the old spells but needed to tweak them to suit the damaged weave. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2015 : 20:00:45
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From what I remember (can't recall actual sources though). Abeir Toril was so saturated with raw magic that it is toxic to the existence of mortals and in my mind I imagine it burning up lesser creatures like a flame (maybe a blue one).
Now depending upon your definition of "mortal" this could mean that either anything less than a super powerful being did not exist on Toril before the weave came into being, or it means that nothing less than a super powerful being could use magic before the weave came into existence.
Using some of George's excellent recent lore, it seems that the Nether Scrolls may have had a hand in creating the weave. The sarrukh and the phaerimm are both super powerful beings and so could use raw magic without perishing (might get a little singed though) and so had no limitations beyond their own skill.
Jergal starting the baetith and creating the nether scrolls caused the weave to come into existence and created a huge carrot on a stick for the sarrukh and phaerimm to fight over. The weave is easier to use than raw magic (spells appeared to be stored in it in a ready that is easy to access), but it comes with some limits because it has rules (rules that can be bent or even broken if you are sufficiently skilled like Elminster). The weave existed as a protective layer to allow lesser lifeforms to flourish (beings like humans, elves, dwarves, etc)
Now if the Weave was destroyed then the only option available would be raw magic, but would it still be lethal to use for lesser mortals (can magic be depleted through over use)?
It sounds like the weave was just depleted in which case raw magic is still unavailable.
However, I think (i.e. its only my personal opinion) Karsus did discover a way to manipulate raw magic within the weave - he called it heavy magic, so it can exist as a bubble within the weave. I wonder perhaps if dead magic is not dead magic at all, but merely the absence of the weave and so raw magic may be available within those areas (again only if magic can be depleted through over use, otherwise anyone entering a dead magic area would just burn up (depending upon raw magic damages upon contact or use). |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2015 : 17:20:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
I kinda like the idea that post spellplague magic was cast through a damaged weave rather than using raw wild magic. It explains why casters had to make adjustments to their casting and not start from scratch. It also explains why so many spells were available after only a hundred years, they still had knowledge of the old spells but needed to tweak them to suit the damaged weave.
Well, IIRC, it had already been hinted in Elminster Enraged, but in Spellstorm it is confirmed that the Weave was never actually destroyed:
quote:
El shook is head. ''Dead but not gone, only silent. For Mystra is the Weave, and throghout all of this, there was always a Weave, however weak and damaged and imperiled. [...] If Mystra had been utterly destroyed, her essence scattered, the Weave would have collapsed and the old ways of wielding magic with it. We came close to that
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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The Changing Magic
