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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe

300 Posts

Posted - 28 May 2015 :  05:37:18  Show Profile Send Cyrinishad a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I have been rereading many of books in preparation for my groups first 5th edition Realms game, and since we don't yet have a comprehensive 5th edition FRCS sourcebook, I found myself speculating on various Heretical Cosmologies and "What- If" ideas about established canon.

The first one that came to mind was about Mystra during the Time of Troubles. This heresy supposes that Midnight becoming Mystra is actually Leira assuming the mantle of Mystra after the real Mystra was killed by Helm. Midnight's birth name was Ariel Manx. Ariel is the inverse spelling of Leira... Thoughts?

To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates

Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss

Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 28 May 2015 :  11:24:52  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Very interesting idea, and good catch there with Leira-Ariel, but Leira is now back in 5th edition. Or rather, it was confimed that her death was indeed just one of her illusions, as it suspected for a long time, even in-universe.
Although it is possible that Leira mantains now just two aspects, or the true Mystra took over the Minight guise, now that she's back.

Another heresy could be that Bhaal never died, but has just possesed Cyric, and now that he's back, he just mantains the Cyric aspect, to have more worshippers. This could be used by either prieshood, in order to strenghten their god, by the cost of another. And would explain Cyric's tranformation into a complete bastard.
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe

USA
403 Posts

Posted - 28 May 2015 :  11:27:31  Show Profile Send SaMoCon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
How important is religion and religious orthodoxy going to be to your game? Are there going to be social and/or judicial consequences to heresy that come about in play? Are there going to be high priests that denounce break away cults following the "false doctrine" and is there going to internecine conflict amongst the schism of the faithful? Are you looking for real effects on game play or just color to drop in the background?

Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for.
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 28 May 2015 :  11:53:25  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Very interesting idea, and good catch there with Leira-Ariel, but Leira is now back in 5th edition. Or rather, it was confimed that her death was indeed just one of her illusions, as it suspected for a long time, even in-universe.
Although it is possible that Leira mantains now just two aspects, or the true Mystra took over the Minight guise, now that she's back.




Where was that confirmed? I mean, this is really good news to me, but the only thing that I'm aware of is that she's listed in the PHB, meaning that she is likely back, but nothing more than that.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 28 May 2015 11:53:45
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 28 May 2015 :  14:19:29  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sorry to dissapoint you Irennan, but I just took the fact she's listed in the PHB, as a confimation she's back.
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 28 May 2015 :  14:24:17  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It likely is, but I was wondering where you got the confirmation of that her death was an illusion.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe

300 Posts

Posted - 28 May 2015 :  14:33:40  Show Profile Send Cyrinishad a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Is it conceivable that AO's concept of time is such that all of the events that happen within the Realms are part of the past, since AO existed prior to the creation of Time within the Realms... Therefore, when it was revealed that Leira was murdered by Cyric it could have been as much a declaration of what would happen as what did happen. If this is the case, and we also presume that Leira assumed the mantle of Mystra, then when Cyric murders Mystra to and sets off the events of the Spellplague he would actually be murdering Leira, and fulfilling AO's declaration.

To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates

Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe

300 Posts

Posted - 28 May 2015 :  15:29:44  Show Profile Send Cyrinishad a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Regarding SaMoCon's comments... I haven't nailed this down completely yet, but I have been toying with the idea of incorporating much of the conjecture and disputes over the various changes in the Realms from edition to edition. And in this regard much of the uncertainty surrounding the Realms in 5th edition fits nicely into this.

Essentially, by assuming that all of the recorded history and cosmology of the Realms is Oghma's "official" version of events, I want leave the door open for my players to indulge any number of theories about the "true" history and cosmology of the Realms. In order to give some context as to why this is relevant I will breifly explain the circumstances of my major 3rd Edition and 4th Edition campaigns.

3rd Edition: The players were the Heroes of Halruua, valiantly defending it against the newly resurrected Bane. The campaign concluded when the players traveled to Nimbral to find an Artifact of Leira. They found out that not only was their Wizard a clone of Manshoon that had been hidden in Halruua, but that Cyric was the true power behind Halruua. (This all ended up working nicely with the official events that transitioned 3rd Edition to 4th Edition).

4th Edition: The players were students at Candlekeep, that stumbled upon the wreckage of the Skyship that was used in the 3rd Edition campaign. The campaign concluded when the half-orc and the half-elf found out that they were actually brothers born of an Uthgardt Shaman of Selune, and were heirs to the Kingdom of Many Arrows, and Silverymoon, respectively. An alliance between the Uthgardt Tribes, Many Arrows, and Silverymoon was forged. (This ended up working nicely with the return Eiliastree and her Drow followers to the surface of Faerun in 5th Edition).

So, part of the plotline I am considering involves Oghma becoming fed up with the continued emergence of "dangerous ideas" that contradict his official version of events. Insisting that all Orcs and Drow are evil, that the returned gods are a harbinger of the end times in Faerun, and that any gods he has declared to be dead must be returned to that state.

...Anyone else have any ideas on this?

To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates

Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2015 :  02:07:57  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Though its not the particular storyline I'd go for, I'm glad to see someone else embracing the "Leira's death was an illusion/fake" theory. I do like the idea that somehow Leira and Ariel Manx are linked somehow though. It would be interesting if Ariel/Midnight were actually some form of intelligent construct like a simulacrum (kind of like Alias) created by Mystra using some of Leira's "essence", and all of her memories of her childhood are false ones (i.e. lies). Mystra could have similar creations in Toril even now made from the "essence" of Azuth, Velsharoon, Savras, (or other "magic" deities) that she uses as her servants. In fact... maybe some of the Chosen are exactly this and they don't even know it.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2015 :  22:53:10  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A self-aware simulacrum ascended to divinity? The Realms has magic and miracles and high-fantasy and plenty of divine-powered soap opera, but this implied connection still seems highly improbable, lol.

The Ariel-vs-Leira implication is intriguing, but then I wonder if perhaps the reverse of Manx (Xnam) could perhaps be the name of a fiend?

Leira has always - by her very nature (or supernature?) - been entirely enigmatic and inscrutable. Whereas (old school) Mystra has always been linked even eponymously with the "mysteries" of magic. But still it seems to me that Leira was essentially subordinate to Mystra, illusions (and illusionists) were always a subset within global magic. Some of the best illusions don't require magic, but in a world which includes magic (and which includes magical ways to detect and dispel illusions) a goddess of illusion would require full mastery of illusion magics to properly maintain her exalted station.

[/Ayrik]
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Ayrik
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Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2015 :  23:19:01  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The entire Avatar Crisis was precipitated by the narrow-minded perceptions of the Faerunian deities. Each deity was limited to seeing (and even believing) the world and its peoples existed only as objects of their individual portfolios - Talos saw the world (and all the things in it) only as targets to be destroyed, Tempus saw the world as a place of war and battle and soldiers, Tyr was so symbolically blinded by pure law and justice that he was literally blinded by Ao as a consequence. (I ignore the Tablets of Fate, and the actions of the Dead Three to claim them, because the whole notion was just a big narrative MacGuffin used to drive the plot.)

Leira was a member of this old pantheon. Could she see the world as being nothing more than a grand illusion, all the people within it (even her own worshippers) as an impenetrably false reality? Did her unique vantage point allow her to actually pierce the otherwise impenetrable illusion of reality to see the underlying fundamental truths beneath some universal facade? I note that AD&D 2E priests of Leira could be driven insane by true seeing magics which forced them to confront the true appearance of things - would Leira herself face such insanity if likewise forced to behold the true appearance of reality? For all Leira knew, with all her godlike and somewhat omniscient intelligence, she was merely a typical consciousness (indeed, perhaps the only conscious entity) existing within a universe constructed entirely out of pure ultimate solipsism. If so, if Leira is essentially the creator of the universe in its entirety (or at least the entirety of Realmspace) - the "greater" entities like Ao and Mystra, all the other deities of the pantheon, and all the peoples of the world (and the planes?) might simply be quirky manifestations of different aspects of Leira illusionary creation, illusions so carefully crafted that even their own creator cannot suspect that ultimate truths lie behind them.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 31 May 2015 23:26:47
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe

USA
830 Posts

Posted - 01 Jun 2015 :  00:46:07  Show Profile Send Dark Wizard a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Leira was a member of this old pantheon. Could she see the world as being nothing more than a grand illusion, all the people within it (even her own worshippers) as an impenetrably false reality? Did her unique vantage point allow her to actually pierce the otherwise impenetrable illusion of reality to see the underlying fundamental truths beneath some universal facade? I note that AD&D 2E priests of Leira could be driven insane by true seeing magics which forced them to confront the true appearance of things - would Leira herself face such insanity if likewise forced to behold the true appearance of reality? For all Leira knew, with all her godlike and somewhat omniscient intelligence, she was merely a typical consciousness (indeed, perhaps the only conscious entity) existing within a universe constructed entirely out of pure ultimate solipsism. If so, if Leira is essentially the creator of the universe in its entirety (or at least the entirety of Realmspace) - the "greater" entities like Ao and Mystra, all the other deities of the pantheon, and all the peoples of the world (and the planes?) might simply be quirky manifestations of different aspects of Leira illusionary creation, illusions so carefully crafted that even their own creator cannot suspect that ultimate truths lie behind them.



For years now, I've thought something of this sort was going on in the background and await its reveal and fruition.
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe

300 Posts

Posted - 01 Jun 2015 :  15:18:04  Show Profile Send Cyrinishad a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ayrik, I like your thought process on this, it offers some intriguing insights. One of the other small details that I noticed regarding the Mystra/Leira connection was the change in Mystra's holy symbol. The adoption of a modified version of Selune's symbol, replacing the eyes with a rising red mist.

In light of Ayrik's comments regarding the pantheon itself being an illusion, I'll bring up another heretical theory I've been kicking around. It's been alluded to many times that Selune and Shar may be the same entity... two sides of the same coin.

Also, it has been revealed that multiple gods of the Elven pantheon were simply aspects of other gods...What if Corellon is the only true Seldarine?... and What if Lolth and Corellon are actually the same entity?... or What if Lolth is actually an aspect of Shar, in the same way that Moonbow was an aspect of Selune?

The rationale of this second heresy being that the name "Darine" means "Great One" and the meaning of the word "Sel" means "Self". Therefore, the term "Seldarine" suggests that there is only one.

I have been thinking about this, because I am considering having Corellon have a fall from grace in my Realms (or maybe he was never pure?), that somehow ties in with the Redemption of the Dark Elves, and the Return of Eiliastree.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Conjecture?

To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates

Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss

Edited by - Cyrinishad on 01 Jun 2015 15:26:05
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 01 Jun 2015 :  15:41:49  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Corellon was never ''pure'' to begin with. I wouldn't go as far as saying that he's evil, but he did make mistakes that doomed the whole dark elven race (namely cursing a whole race and -assuming that it was a mistake- doing nothing to fix it). There's a whole thread on that, if you want to have a look: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20091

Lolth and Corellon being the same deties sounds a bit weird, since they birthed Eilistraee and Vhaeraun (but then we don't know how gods birth other gods. Or maybe Corellon and Lolth weren't always deities and gave birth to their children before ascending). Also, he would have to have pretty heavy personality disorders in order to fight against himself (unless the whole conflict is just a facade that he is keeping up for some obscure reason). I would prefer if Shar were behind the whole matter of Lolth's crazy betrayal and sparked the conflict between her and the Seldarine, rather than the two of them being the same (even if some Sharran could decide to spread that voice). Shar may have capitalized on Lolth's unfulfilled ambitions and her anger caused by how -according to the myth- she felt that Corellon was condescending in her regards. Maybe even now Lolth is actually being used by Shar to spread hate, suffering and loss among the dark elves (and fair one as well, given all the deaths that their war caused). Perhaps Eilistraee's alliance with Selune and Mystra (and the fact that Mystra chose the body of the stillborn daughter of a follower of the Dark Maiden as the recipient for the soul of the 7th sister) is due to that (I mean, what reason would they have to be allied, rather than just on friendly terms? A common enemy sounds good for that).

As for Corellon being the only true Seldarine, we know that the whole pantheon is composed of interloper deities. Perhaps most of them were subsumed by Torilian gods upon entering the sphere (I mean, the only explanation for Sehanine=Selune is that the latter took over the former, even if two good deties with similar interests fighting to the death just 'cause feels really off to me), while some others (with more specific spheres of influence, like Shevarash, Erevan, Eilistraee&Vhaeraun and so on) remained.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 01 Jun 2015 15:51:11
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe

300 Posts

Posted - 01 Jun 2015 :  16:36:23  Show Profile Send Cyrinishad a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Irennan, thanks for the link. I've never thought of Corellon in a positive light, but I was trying not to just skewer him right out of the gates...

I have long thought that it's a strong possibility that the only true Seldarine in the Realms is Corellon, and that considering the roots of the term Seldarine, it may be a title that he gave to himself. I have always perceived him as an entity driven in many ways by vanity, in part because of how he cursed the Drow, and in part because of his perception that elves are the only true "people".
Additionally, I tend to perceive Corellon as the type that tells his own version of events that indulges his ego as the "Great One". Which brings me to my third heresy regarding Lolth's rebellion against Corellon.
Why would Lolth create an alliance with Gruumsh to invade Arvandor? Lolth's original name Auruanshee which vaguely translates to "Light" and "Inspiration", and she is posited as the Goddess of Destiny. Is it possible that Auruanshee thought that true destiny of the elves was to reconcile with the Orcs? And that Auruanshee had actually brought Gruumsh to Arvandor to broker a cosmological peace between the Elves and the Orcs? Only to be met with Corellon's rage and cursed?

This ties in somewhat with the storyline of my Realms games, in that that the end of 4th edition saw the redemption of the Dark Elves, and an Alliance forged between Many Arrows and Silverymoon. I am thinking that this could be a catalyst to reveal Corellon's spiteful side, possibly tying into a relationship with Oghma (who is also billed as an interloper deity, that is invested in his own version of cosmological history).

To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates

Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 01 Jun 2015 :  17:16:07  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It would be cool if Araushnee wanted that, but in canon it sounds unlikely. She brought Gruumsh and a bunch of random evil deities into Arvandor, and they outright attacked (that is how things are told in Elaine's ''Evermeet''), her people would have never wanted peace after that. There's also the issue of Lolth and Vhaeraun attacking Sehanine in preparation for the invasion, their trying to frame Eilistraee (which was a premediated act, through that tapestry that Araushnee wove for Corellon and that was meant to attract her daughter's arrow) and all that stuff.

However in your FR you could say that the myth is just Corellon's version of the story (but Lolth's currently being what she is would kind of throw that out of the window. Really, I could understand her exile fueling hatred towards Corellon and maybe even her wanting to punish him by hurting the elves, but all the rest? Rendering her own people's life utter crap?), or that Araushnee originally intended to create peace between orcs and elfs, but that -if you still want to go for that Shar heresy- the whispers of the Lady of Loss made her give in to her anger and grief and try to force her vision of peace through violence. Perhaps (but IMO it is very much of a stretch) you could also say that Araushnee's original intention actually was to bring orcs and other deities to Arvandor to discuss of pacific coexistence, but that she was deceived by them (this, however, would make her look very stupid/naive, and still wouldn't explain the whole matter with Sehanine or bringing Ghaunadaur in).

If you are going for Corellon's ''fall from grace'' in your realms, consider the chance of making it so that the events that are going to unfold in your game would also have a chance to make him change his stance. You have Silverymoon allied with Many Arrows (so elves/humans/orcs/others together), there's also Eilistraee returning with the Sundering, and she could influence her father, especially now that she is once again starting to bring the hope of a new life to the drow (and that Corellon has already accepted her followers in Arvandor). Pride and vanity come to a certain point, but when confronted with hard evidence, Corellon will have to adapt or lose followers (since -with your alliance- there are already groups of elves going for a change of stance towards other races).

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 01 Jun 2015 17:23:07
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
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Posted - 01 Jun 2015 :  18:18:34  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
How about if Lolth was always a demonic interloper? She appeared to the early drow, claiming to be a goddess, and got just enough worship to get some divine juice going on. After she was established as a deity, she joined the Seldarine. And then she later attacked, and everything flowed from there as we already have in canon.

In fact, you could spread it a bit further, and say that the early drow were regular elves, but that Lolth had corrupted them both physically and culturally, as part of her path to divinity. It could be that the original drow were regular elves that she crossbred with some outsider race, similar to the later fey'ri.

This could explain a lot of why the drow are similar to regular elves but have some notable differences (particularly their birthrate). And going that route also mitigates Corellon's banishment of them -- they had been corrupted from the start.

As another alternative, when Lolth was banished, she could have led/guided her followers underground, and their changes could have been directly and deliberately caused by her -- this was actually part of my original theory of their banishment, long before Elaine ever wrote a Realms novel.

If you go this route, then the one-size-fits-all banishment of all drow, good or evil, could be the heresy, created to help drive drow hatred of their surface cousins. Being deliberately wronged in an us-against-them scenario is a great recipe for hostility.

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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe

300 Posts

Posted - 01 Jun 2015 :  18:45:33  Show Profile Send Cyrinishad a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for setting me straight Irennan. This is why I need to see how much of these ideas can hold water here on the Candlekeep boards...

Wooly's comments about Lolth being a demonic interloper from the outset made me think of another angle to approach this idea... What if Lolth is actually Graz'zt attempting to continually corrupt Corellon and the elves? Graz'zt does have a striking resemblance to Elves.

Here's another idea given weight by Ghaunadaur's involvement in the entire scenario, and it's steady ascension over the editions to the status of a Greater Deity. Perhaps Ghaunadaur is the power behind Lolth, and the instigator of animosity between the Orcs and the Elves. The cornerstone myth about the conflict between Corellon and Gruumsh involves Corellon blinding Gruumsh in one eye... Ghaunadaur's symbol is an Eye superimposed over a symbol similar to Shar's symbol. I wonder...

To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates

Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss

Edited by - Cyrinishad on 01 Jun 2015 18:48:56
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 01 Jun 2015 :  19:07:28  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here's another potential spin... Lolth is currently answering prayers in Moander's name. And we know Moander has previously been able to corrupt a deity, without their awareness...

What if Lolth was previously a happy, good-aligned member of the Seldarine? She encountered Moander someplace, and he hit her with his divine whammy. Rather than the more overt corruption of Tyche, he went for a more minor effect, and this caused Aruashnee's eventually fall to evil.

Similarly, you could spread this corruption from Lolth to her followers; mayhaps they were pushed into consuming a potion ("it's the new recipe for holy water, from Lolth herself!") that contained some of Moander's spores, and this corrupted them into what they later became.

Shar is a possibility, but I'm personally loathe to give her any more credit than is necessary -- her thrust to the forefront in 3E and 4E continues to leave a bad taste in my mouth, and I prefer a deity of corruption with a history of corrupting deities.

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Cyrinishad
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300 Posts

Posted - 01 Jun 2015 :  20:17:25  Show Profile Send Cyrinishad a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Good point Wooly, that's worth exploring. I'm going to have to do some research on Moander and the other returned gods to see how I can effectively incorporate their return to the Realms. The return of Myrkul had already gotten me thinking about how I can shift Kelemvor's role.

I've never been a fan of races being inherently evil, so forces that can manipulate the various races into conflict and corrupt their deities intentions (like Moander) fits well in my mind.

To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates

Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 01 Jun 2015 :  21:01:55  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad

Good point Wooly, that's worth exploring. I'm going to have to do some research on Moander and the other returned gods to see how I can effectively incorporate their return to the Realms. The return of Myrkul had already gotten me thinking about how I can shift Kelemvor's role.

I've never been a fan of races being inherently evil, so forces that can manipulate the various races into conflict and corrupt their deities intentions (like Moander) fits well in my mind.




Yeah. Also, it is a canon fact that drow are not corrupted like that, especially when you have 20% of them choosing to worship Eilistraee (among other deities), and when Ed himself said that all drow receive visions and dreams from her during their life and that while not many choose to abandon Lolth, many secretly yearn Eilistraee and what she represents. IMO Corellon making a mistake and wrongly cursing the whole race adds some depth to the conflict.

Moander corrupting Lolth could work, but I honestly prefer Shar, as -to my understanding- her ''corruption'' is more like a temptation, leading people to give in their grief/negative emtions and turning those into hatred towards the world (and Lolth and the drow are full of frustration and hatred for about everything).

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe

300 Posts

Posted - 02 Jun 2015 :  13:45:15  Show Profile Send Cyrinishad a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I spent some time rereading my material on Moander and Shar, and realized that perhaps they should both be involved. I want Eiliastree to be a symbol of the new age of the elven people, a redemption figure for all the elves.

It is referenced that Moander can not only speed up decay, he can slow it down as well... so, maybe there lies the dark secret to the longevity of the elven people. Moander actually corrupted Corellon, not Auruanshee. Moander enabled Corellon and the Elves become nearly immortal and retain a near perfect semblance of outer beauty. Auruanshee somehow finds out that Moander is the power behind Corellon. She knows that Corellon cannot hear her because Moander is already in his head. So, she thinks the only way to save the Elves from Moander is to cut out the cancer... and when she cannot get Selune to help her, the dark sister Shar tells Auruanshee that she can give her the magic of the "Drow blessing" she needs to be victorious and save her people.

When Corellon defeats the insurrection, Moander's whispers convince him to banish his children to the Abyss as well, so that all voices of reason are cast out... and Eiliastree is left searching for a way to redeem her mother and father.

I am somewhat invested in the idea of Corellon being a villain/victim in the 5th edition campaign... Or at least having a major divide in the elves perceptions of the return Eiliastree, partly because I haven't had an opportunity to use the Eldreth Veluuthra yet. And the idea that Elven "immortality" is a curse instead of a blessing seems somewhat intriguing.

To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates

Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 02 Jun 2015 :  15:38:43  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's your campaign, so whatever works for you... But I don't see how physically remaining a young adult for several centuries could possibly constitute being a curse. A lot of people would give a lot for such a boon - especially when it also affected their loved ones.

Also, assuming elven genetics work somewhat similarly to real-world genetics, aging isn't a form of decay. It's an inability for cells to keep replicating without changes.


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Irennan
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Italy
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Posted - 02 Jun 2015 :  17:20:53  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad

I spent some time rereading my material on Moander and Shar, and realized that perhaps they should both be involved. I want Eiliastree to be a symbol of the new age of the elven people, a redemption figure for all the elves.

It is referenced that Moander can not only speed up decay, he can slow it down as well... so, maybe there lies the dark secret to the longevity of the elven people. Moander actually corrupted Corellon, not Auruanshee. Moander enabled Corellon and the Elves become nearly immortal and retain a near perfect semblance of outer beauty. Auruanshee somehow finds out that Moander is the power behind Corellon. She knows that Corellon cannot hear her because Moander is already in his head. So, she thinks the only way to save the Elves from Moander is to cut out the cancer... and when she cannot get Selune to help her, the dark sister Shar tells Auruanshee that she can give her the magic of the "Drow blessing" she needs to be victorious and save her people.

When Corellon defeats the insurrection, Moander's whispers convince him to banish his children to the Abyss as well, so that all voices of reason are cast out... and Eiliastree is left searching for a way to redeem her mother and father.

I am somewhat invested in the idea of Corellon being a villain/victim in the 5th edition campaign... Or at least having a major divide in the elves perceptions of the return Eiliastree, partly because I haven't had an opportunity to use the Eldreth Veluuthra yet. And the idea that Elven "immortality" is a curse instead of a blessing seems somewhat intriguing.



I like this take quite a lot (I always enjoy when you have no definite ''I'm right and good, they're wrong and bad'' situation), but IMO -as Wooly pointed out- a reason why Moander chose that particualr form for a curse would be needed.

I mean, Shar gets to spread despair and suffering beacuse of the conflict that would spring from the corruption of Araushnee*, but what would Moander get? At the end of the day he wants everything to rot, and his choice doesn't really lead to that.

IIRC Moander also directly corrupted -with his usual kind of corruption- elves both in Darkwatch and Cormanthor, but then this doesn't directly contradict his corrupting the whole eleven race in a different manner. There's also Lolth's taking Moander as an alias to be considered (but then this could maybe just be an act of spite towards Corellon/the elves, since she would know that Moander is the force behind her former lover's fall from grace)

Perhaps the ''eternal'' youth was his device to twist and make the elven souls rot, but then we know that elves go to Arvandor and that they are quite happy there. Or you could also say that with his ''gift'' he implanted his spores in the elven souls, in order to use them to bring his corruption to Arvandor itself. Why he hasn't already done that remains a problem though (by now, he would have tons of spores up there. Unless a sort of ''critical mass'' is needed before the process can begin and evolve in a way that not much could be done about it. Or unless Araushnee actually managed to somehow slow him down). Just throwing ideas out there, there's some stuff to be considered, assumung that you want to remain close to canon.

On a side note, I don't see the need of having Selune involved and refusing to aid her. That would also mean that the Moon Maiden would be aware of the secret forces corrupting the elves, IMO it would be better if the only ones knowing were Corellon and Lolth, while everyone else (including Eilistraee, who would understand that something is wrong with her parents, but wouldn't know what exactly) had to find it out.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 02 Jun 2015 17:51:29
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Cyrinishad
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Posted - 02 Jun 2015 :  18:38:30  Show Profile Send Cyrinishad a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great points all around. Wooly, while you're totally correct that aging is essentially a form of cellular change, and not decay via bacterial processes. My interpretation of Moander as the god of decay would have to be larger in scope than any scientific processes. His cult likely uses the scientific process as a ritual because it something that they can perceive on a small scale. But on a cosmological scale, his concept of decay would be the decline of everything: magic, culture, beauty, civilization, etc. Corellon would serve as a perfect vessel for cosmological decay, since the Elves are generally perceived as the ultimate caretakers of these concepts.

Also, I think Moander and Shar are natural foes on some level. Shar desires the universe to return to the void itself, nonexistence... Moander desires continual decay of the universe, but he cannot permit the universe to end and return to the void... So, a force would be required to ensure the continutal creation of things that can decay. The manipulation of the elves could serve that purpose for Moander, as caretakers of a universe that is in a continual state of decay.
This idea is still very much in the early brainstorming stages, but I think it has some storyline potential.

To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates

Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss

Edited by - Cyrinishad on 02 Jun 2015 18:39:22
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Cyrinishad
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Posted - 02 Jun 2015 :  18:59:44  Show Profile Send Cyrinishad a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I hate to throw the Dwarves in here after the fact, but I'm going to do it anyway. The Moander/Corellon heresy helps to highlight some justifications for the contrasting cultures of the Elves and the Dwarves. Both races are perceived in a broad sense as caretaker races for humanity, but without the Moander/Corellon connection I was never able to reconcile the "chaotic" nature of elves with their near immortality. I always thought that their immortality would make them have a more "lawful" nature, since their longevity would prove to them that their way is the way that works.
So, with this connection, the elves valuing the inspiration and creativity of individuals, constantly encouraging new expressions of artistry, music, languages, ideas, etc. These constant new ideas and contributions are essentially fuel for decay.
While the Dwarves value the constancy of tradition, masonry, dethek runes, etc. Essentially, they are looking to create things and concepts that have permanency in cosmological sense. Suddenly, this contrast starts feeling more logical to me.

To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates

Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss
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Irennan
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Italy
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Posted - 02 Jun 2015 :  19:14:49  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That makes sense. In order to have a world that rots, there has to be something that can be corrupted in it, there has to be life. That would work as a motivation for Moander to use a curse that at the end of the day has beneificial effects rather than negative ones.

This has indeed storytelling potential, especially if you can manage to make a full campaign out of it. Araushnee/Corellon would also become dramatic figures: they acted with the best intentions for their people, but were ultimately manipulated by forces greater than them. Finding out what truly happened and finding a way to free the two of them from the mind-twisting influences, therefore ending the drow-elf war (or helping Eilistraee -and perhaps Vhaeraun too- to do that) would make for a really cool story IMO.

I also like your take on the contrast between the elven and dwarven cultures.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 02 Jun 2015 19:20:27
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Ayrik
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Canada
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Posted - 02 Jun 2015 :  23:31:53  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Old Realmslore (originally 2E Netheril: Empire of Magic, I think) asserts that their were originally only seven Faerunian deities. Not of few of the later additions to the pantheon were interloping foreign powers. Most notable among these, perhaps, is Tyr - Realms-Tyr is clearly related to Norse-Tyr (I actually suspect Realms-Tyr was originally an "aspect" or even an avatar of a Norse-Tyr, lol), and yet Realms-Tyr has also evolved into a distinct and substantially differentiated sort of god. And if it could happen once, it could happen on any world where people are willing to worship Tyr (or at least worship something notionally similar to Tyr). Such a redefinition may have also happened with Realms-Corellon vs Feywild-Corellon?

I suggest another oddball heresy: in the beginning there was Mystryl, then Mystra, finally Midnight. Three goddesses of magic who (aside from a few briefly violent interregna) maintain the continuum of magic across the entire span of the Realms. Not to mention that they also control all access to temporal travel, divinations of past and future events, etc. I suggest that the Weave may be an ageless living construct which envelopes the Realms across all eternity, simultaneously existing everywhere and everywhen - and that the Trinity of Mystras we know across three D&D editions are a Realmsy expression of the Three Fates, constantly spinning and weaving and cutting threads in the tapestry of magic (and thus controlling the destinies of all things and all people touching this magic). Whether such an entity is composed of three individuals or of a single triple-aspected individual is an irrelevant question best suited to theologicians. (Since, after all, any given deity in the Realms can already maintain multiple simultaneous consciousnesses, minds, and avatars anyhow.)

[/Ayrik]
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Cyrinishad
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Posted - 03 Jun 2015 :  00:28:41  Show Profile Send Cyrinishad a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I like where your head is at Ayrik. Are you suggesting first that essentially all Torilian versions of interloper/racial deities are not actually those deities, and instead aspects of Torilian deities? If so, that opens a lot of doors...

Also, I think your interpretation of the Weave of Magic is a gem. This basically justifies Magic itself in Toril as being identical to Physics in the natural universe.

To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates

Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss
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Ayrik
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Canada
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Posted - 03 Jun 2015 :  03:29:44  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was suggesting that since we already know of one specific instance of such a deific interloper becoming firmly entrenched within and shaped by the Realms (Tyr) then it doesn't seem unreasonable for there to be more than one. It almost seems unreasonable to claim that Tyr and Tyr alone is the sole exception among Faerunian Powers. And it seems a workable sort of explanation for Corellon.

The drow of the Realms have a racial history similar to drow of Oerth and other worlds, although details differ. Drow from any world are said to have been cursed by Corellon in the same manner. Drow of many worlds worship some sort of Lolth (or Lloth, lol). Each different version of the drow story cannot all be true - unless different "instances" of Corellon acted in these similar-yet-different ways on each world where a Corellon is worshipped. All the other elves of the Realms are likewise similar to their other-worldly counterparts, perhaps they share a common origin and the ancient specifics of their godly mythology have been blurred over time (as suggested in 2E Spelljammer lore). But perhaps each world where elves dwell, regardless how they came to be there, has it's own version of "Corellon" whose execution of his divine role differed from all others.

The Realms gods are said to be shaped and defined by the specific belief of their worshippers. As are the various Powers in Planescape and many other worlds. So the gods must each be as unique as the peoples (and nations and tribes) which worship them - yet, they must also have a recognizable "global" omni-godness which unifies their core self-identity across every place where they are worshipped.

[/Ayrik]
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Rymac
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USA
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Posted - 03 Jun 2015 :  05:59:58  Show Profile  Visit Rymac's Homepage Send Rymac a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

I suggest another oddball heresy: in the beginning there was Mystryl, then Mystra, finally Midnight. Three goddesses of magic who (aside from a few briefly violent interregna) maintain the continuum of magic across the entire span of the Realms. Not to mention that they also control all access to temporal travel, divinations of past and future events, etc.


Just a thought, but the three aspects of the Lady of Mysteries (Mystryl, Mystra, & Midnight) diverged in alignment. Mystryl was Chaotic Neutral, Mystra was Lawful Neutral, & Midnight was/is Neutral Good. A fourth version of the Lady of Mysteries could potentially be Neutral Evil, or balance out at True Neutral. I'm sure I'm not the first to notice this.
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