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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Jul 2018 : 18:41:17
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Unfortunately it has long been the opinion on the boards that the gods are in constant communication with their followers, know everything that happens, and will always intervene in anything to do with or opposing their portfolio. And that opinion is usually voiced by saying "the gods wouldn't allow that" followed by lots of shouting down of anyone who disagrees.
Your inexperience is not a hindrance in discussions like this because it's theoretical and questioning which is always helped by a bit of independence from the subject.
By all means discuss it but you will get shouted down a lot by people who quote ad nauseam until the discussion fails.
You have the right to voice your opinion, I have the right to disagree with it and explain why it is wrong. It's called a discussion, you're not freely granted your point in a discussion, you have to prove it.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
You only have to look at almost any event in FR history to note a lack of deific interference which means they cannot or do not interfere directly. Look at the number of times a clergy was infiltrated or attacked or even wiped out which points to a god not being omniscient either and goes against the arguments people are making here. Harper's infiltrate evil churches, agents infiltrate good churches and that would not be possible if a god knows about it and interferes (even indirectly) with guaranteed success which is what people are implying by saying evil cannot operate within a good church for very long. Heresies are the perfect example of gods being unable to interfere.
Every major event in the Realms has priests and followers of multiple faiths intervening left, right and center. Every war, every plague, every dragon flight, every big political manuevering, everything. The gods intervene through their agents, their churches, their favored creatures and even random mortals "chosen" for one reason or another.
Stop lying.
Churches are inflitrated and attacked and wiped out because they're made of mortals and mortals make mistakes and the deities suffer (up to extinction) if the bulk of their followers makes mistakes. That's why the deities police their own, that's why they have a tight grip on their faithful, especially since the ToT when they quite literally depend on the number and fervor of their followers.
Show us these Harpers posing as clerics of Bane, or Shar, or Bhaal or random evil faith #34 for more than a single scene, show us how they go about their daily cover-identity lives for years, you can quote sources too.
Heresies are handled differently than hostile take overs for the simple reasons that until something big happens (murder, war, acting against the ethos and not just preaching a slightly different dogma) the heretics may be re-admitted into the main body of the church.
If you've got any specific incident or heresy in mind, feel free to open another thread (I'm feeling really guilty about this derailing of VikingLegion's thread) and I'll chime in. |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2018 : 18:47:48
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quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion
In Elaine Cunningham's novel Thornhold we see a [fallen] paladin of Tyr (a Lawful Good deity) remain in control of his order for years. I just went back and checked on that discussion (starts on page 11 of this thread) and I have to congratulate Seravin on being consistent. You said "Foul!" back then for many of the same reasons as what you list for Selune being complacent in this scandal.
Note that his guy was backed by Cyric |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2018 : 19:11:11
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quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion
In Elaine Cunningham's novel Thornhold we see a [fallen] paladin of Tyr (a Lawful Good deity) remain in control of his order for years. I just went back and checked on that discussion (starts on page 11 of this thread) and I have to congratulate Seravin on being consistent. You said "Foul!" back then for many of the same reasons as what you list for Selune being complacent in this scandal.
Good job Seravin!
quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion
Tempus is practically war incarnate, that's what he wants to promote above all else. How would he do if he had to attend a basic economics class taught by Waterdhavian merchants? Sure, sure, I know someone will counter with the stats for avatars and how he probably has a 25 Intelligence or something, but I don't buy it. I think within minutes into the lecture his mind would wander to thoughts of smashing his desk, handing out the 4 legs to 4 different students, and watching them battle it out for the "A" that can be given out to one and only one student.
Probably, because in his mind basic economics is not important and the best is whoever can win in a fight so if there is a judgement to be done is a contest of might and not one of wits.
But why would the god of war attend a basic economics class taught by Waterdhavian merchants again? Not to be antagonistic but if to prove a point you have to make up unbelievable circumstances than maybe the point is wrong.
The gods are more than their portfolio, even if in a couple of novels they were portrayed as idiotic monomaniacs.
quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion
So, that being said, Selune's portfolio is light, the moon, stars, navigation, navigators, wanderers, questers, and goodly lycanthropes. Perhaps the plight of the girls doesn't even ping her radar - not because she is callous and indifferent to suffering, but simply because it is so far from what is foremost in her mind/essence, it simply does not register or resonate in her attention. Now if this church was one of Tyr (justice) or Ilmater (suffering), I think that would be such a grievous outrage it would have to be addressed immediately, but not so much for Selune, despite her "goodly" nature.
The problem here is not only that she is not intervening to save some poor girls from rape somewhere, the problem is that rape is perpetrated in her temple by her followers in her name. Now you get why she should've been involved?
quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion
Lastly, and I hesitate even to bring this up, but my feelings while reading the book were that the girls were probably somewhere in the 14-18 year old range. And while the thought of a considerably older man engaging in sex with a 14 year old girl is repellent to our modern standards, in medieval times this was undoubtedly more common. Of course I know FR isn't 800AD Europe, but it would appear, access to healing magic notwithstanding, that the life expectancy of all but the very rich is similar. A girl is considered ready (physically and emotionally) for intercourse as soon as she "flowers", thus becoming a woman.
The problem is in the consent, obtained through lies and cohercion.
quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion
Hmm... since menstruation is tied to the lunar cycle, could it not be postulated that these Selunites might even think, in their own twisted way, they are performing some kind of religious ceremony? Gross, I know.
Would've been a "nice touch", with which I mean that at least the author would've showed some tailoring of the heinous act for the specific church. The trouble is that in the Selunite clergy the whole menstruation/lunar cycle connection is already played out in the fact that the clergy is female dominated, the highest ranking clergy are female and the extraplanar servants (the Shards) are all elevated female priests.
While in this temple the head priest is male, there are no female priests, the title of the head priest is weird (Blessed Voice Proper? The 2E godbooks give plenty of inspiration for the name of ranking priests for all clergies of the Realms) and the names don't sound Calishite ... but I digress.
quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion
Sorry if I offended anyone. But my fantasy sensibilities have always steered towards GoT type fare, as I think a certain level of grittiness and "people are awful and generally do awful, or at least extremely selfish things" make novels more immersive and believable for me.
Not offended, but when I want GoT I get GoT, when I read the Realms I want the Realms.
quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion
As for the sale of indulgences thing - I just think it goes to show that any person and/or organization can become corrupted by money. Again, coin and commerce is miles away from anything in Selune's portfolio so is she really going to invest a whole lot of time and energy into how her churches manage their finances? Gold = status and more beautiful displays in every temple (it was mentioned several times how grand the artwork and statuary was in this particular edifice), which raises the "majesty" of the order, which in turn may draw in more followers and a more devout level of faith "energy". Again I don't think Selune would be totally aligned with how they are doing it, I think maybe she's blissfully unaware as she undoubtedly has thousands of other concerns on her plate.
I have no problem with greed in the church, the idea of the sale of indulgences in the Realms is stupid, that's not how it works and there are faiths dedicated to explain how it works and care that everything works according to plans. Selune may have turned a blind eye on the sales of indulgences alone (not the rape in her name), maybe sending dream visions to try and get the priests involved to reconsider such a whacky idea to rise money, but the appointed god of death and his church would've taken issues with the encroachment. And before the ToT the god of death was the evil Myrkul, so one possible way in which it should've gone is that after some time of selling of indulgences and raping girls the temple would've been attacked by a horde of undeads herded by followers of Myrkul and the "Selunite" would've found out the hard way that Selune was not granting them spells nor the power to repel the undeads, with messy results. Note that Calimshan's history (Calimshan is the nation in which the city of Memnon lies) has plenty of examples of these kind of crusades, there were yet ongoing bloody fights between the faith of Shar and Sharess in the 1370s.
PS: sent you a Private Message, VikingLegion
EDIT: ... did I? Can't find the message in my outbox, anyway, as soon as you want me to drop the conversation I will, just shut me up in whatever way you prefer, it's your thread! |
Edited by - Demzer on 07 Jul 2018 19:58:42 |
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Arannis
Acolyte
USA
13 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2018 : 00:35:32
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Personally I lean more towards Dazzlerdal's view of the gods, even though I will agree it is not entirely canonical. Beyond certain extreme instances and with their chosen, I feel Gods should keep to themselves. Like I said this is more my view on the Gods then I think is canon. I feel if the God's are too present and active it starts to feel like things are "fated by the Gods" and less player driven choice.
Not sure I articulated that as well as I could have, but I do think that this current banter is a bit circular in that neither side is going to convince the other. My 2 cents is let it go back to VikingLegion's reviews. |
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Hyperion
Acolyte
38 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2018 : 10:26:00
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The problem with Gods is the same not only in the Realms but in all other D&D worlds. Simply different designers and writers had different ideas on them and no clear line was ever given either by TSR or Wizards. Salvatore obviously has some bad feelings with the Catholic Church and likes to draw a paralel with its worst moments in his novels, as he did the same also in The (non-FR) DemonWars Saga.
We can only assume there is no clear rule, and Gods make big mistakes as humans do. In this particular case, probably the best explanation is a hidden plot by the Church of Shar which succeeded in smearing Selune's name in the city and also hid all what was happened, as Demzer supposed.
This implies the Gods have not omniscience, or at least their omniscience can be limited by other Gods, which was never stated in any Forgotten Realms rpg product, but often appears to be so only in the novels. |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2018 : 12:09:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Hyperion
or at least their omniscience can be limited by other Gods, which was never stated in any Forgotten Realms rpg product, but often appears to be so only in the novels.
Actually it does. Faiths&Pantheons state that deities can block the remote sensing of deities of lesser divine rank (or maybe it was even against deities of equal divine rank) |
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Hyperion
Acolyte
38 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2018 : 12:53:01
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| Interesting, thanks for the citation. This indeed could explain all the Selunite thing with a plot by Shar (admitting the equal rank thing) and makes in general all godly things much more messy (and interesting) with some gods playing dirty tricks on others. |
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe
USA
483 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2018 : 01:47:44
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DISCLAIMER: I'm tired and cranky as I write this
I agree with Hyperion that every writer and designer has a more-than-slightly different handle on what the gods are and how vigorously they intervene/participate in the world of their followers. Are they omniscient and omnipotent beings so far beyond our ken we have no hope of ever understanding them? Or, like the ancient Greek Gods, are they (despite their immense power levels) full of very human character flaws like anger, pride, lust, etc.? Or are they utter buffoons that literally trip over housecats and fall on their arses like Iyachtu Xvim did in Tymora's Luck? I guess it's fine to pile on RAS for going out on a limb and using a goodly aligned church in a nefarious manner (which is 100x more interesting than Banites or Cyricists being bad *yawn*) but Jeff Grubb can portray the gods with about as much solemnity and dignity as a Jar-Jar Binks scene. To make it worse, he's not just writing about errant followers of the gods, but rather the gods themselves while going full-fledged Three Stooges. But since Grubb is a quasi-deity himself on this forum, he apparently has his own set of rules...
As I've already explained I see the gods as more remote, almost elemental forces - geniuses within their own spheres of interest, but noncommittal to most anything outside of them. Anything more than that and I find the stories become boring, with the mortal characters being led around like so much livestock. But that's just my personal interpretation, and as Arannis stated, it's not likely any of us are going to change anyone else's mind. I'll be happy to keep this discussion going, as I think it's been a lively and fun debate, but otherwise I will proceed with the reviews:
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Edited by - VikingLegion on 11 Jul 2018 01:55:23 |
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe
USA
483 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2018 : 01:52:44
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Before moving on to the next book I actually read an online short story called Bold as Brass by Clayton Emery (author of the Netheril Trilogy). If anyone is wondering, yes he did use the word "spanked" in this story (that only makes sense if you've read the Netheril reviews). The story behind this story was intriguing, as it was originally to be part of an anthology called NEVERWINTER NIGHTS, in which each of the 7 stories focused on a different artifact, dropping Easter Eggs as to their locations so that players could track them down in the video game of that name. But then the software company ended up simply putting all the artifacts for sale in the game from easy to find vendors, negating the purpose of the book and ultimately getting it cancelled. This thread has had a few authors peek in from time to time, I'd LOVE to hear from any others that may have been involved in this project and whether or not they have access to their own stories and have hosted them somewhere.
The story itself was a fairly entertaining yarn about two blacksmiths - one in Neverwinter and the other an efreeti in the City of Brass on the Elemental Plane of Fire. Both run into some serious problems, with the human getting booted from his guild and the efreeti being forced to flee on pain of execution. They meet up and end up sort of solving each other's problems. Nothing earth-shattering, but I enjoyed it for what it was.
Up next: just tonight I finished Paul S. Kemp's Shadowborn. Review will come tomorrow.
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Edited by - VikingLegion on 11 Jul 2018 01:58:05 |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1265 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2018 : 00:03:57
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Good discussion all, and thanks for the shout out Viking and Denzar :) Unfortunatley I tend to find the writer's inconsistencies as an avid reader and re-reader of the novels and sourcebooks. I'd have made a good editor for consistency in any case I believe. Apparently (a Facebook thread going on now) Richard Lee Byers didn't read Red Magic OR the Simbul's Gift before he wrote the Undead/UnHoly/UnClean trilogy in Thay..which..explains a heck of a lot to me with how the Zulkirs are portrayed so differently to the Simbul's Gift in particular. Is it too much for these writers to read other novelists work that is SET in the area they are writing about and with the characters they are writing about? Especially when it is only 2 books? I guess so. Sigh. The inconsistencies can kind of ruin otherwise great books for me if I let them.
And to clarify - I never said Selune should show up in Avatar form and blast them...just that a huge heresy over a long period of time should have had a response from her or her followers to stop that, and yes, anytime a mortal speaks a dieties name they are able to hear it and act on it if they wish. That was mentioned in Finder's Bane and Tymora's Luck.
Ahh Shadowborn. Hope you enjoyed. I just couldn't get into the Shade craze of the late 3rd edition. |
Edited by - Seravin on 13 Jul 2018 00:04:47 |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1265 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2018 : 00:11:02
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quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion
DISCLAIMER: I'm tired and cranky as I write this
As I've already explained I see the gods as more remote, almost elemental forces - geniuses within their own spheres of interest, but noncommittal to most anything outside of them. Anything more than that and I find the stories become boring, with the mortal characters being led around like so much livestock. But that's just my personal interpretation, and as Arannis stated, it's not likely any of us are going to change anyone else's mind. I'll be happy to keep this discussion going, as I think it's been a lively and fun debate, but otherwise I will proceed with the reviews:
To me, Gods in the Realms should not be directly intervening, but would grant spells and visions to their priests and paladins (and occassionally their Chosen in DIRE situatons) to help them carry out the God's tasks in their portfolio.
The only time a God in FR should get directly involved is when an opposing God chooses to intervene directly.
This is why I hated Evermeet - (sorry love Elaine) - Lloth was allowed to intervene to start a majorr war against Evermeet but the Good Elf Gods did nothing to stop it or help, and the consequences to their priests were massive. If Lloth hadn't gotten involved, okay, mortals do their thing, but if only the Evil gods intervene directly, what are the God goods there for?
Just my sense. I DO agree with you about Jeff Grubb's portrayal of Gods...Finder is the only one he should write as a character since Finder is a newly made God and very low power. The other Gods should only be written as concepts and not really be understood by mortals unless in Avatar form on Toril...that's my thinking! |
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe
USA
483 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2018 : 02:57:52
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I finished Shadowbred a couple days ago. Meant to write a review yesterday but got sidetracked. Anyway, all I can say is Damn it's good to read Kemp's work again! I had forgotten how intense and tension-filled his writing can be. Apologies to all the other writers, but it sometimes seems like this guy is on another plane of existence.
I also really like how well he tied in recent events from other series into this one. The Rain of Fire (which was his own, so not much research necessary there), the Rage of Dragons, the Elven Return to Cormanthyr. All this extra detail really validates those other storylines and makes them feel like they made a difference rather than being the next disposable RSE that doesn't shake or shatter anything. One of my biggest and oft' voiced complaints of Greenwood's works is how a nation or organization can have droves and droves of its best soldiers, mages, priests, etc. get slaughtered off and then 2 months later they are absolutely no worse for wear. But here we see Kemp illustrate the cumulative effects on Sembia - her farmlands, her economy, even her morale and self-confidence - making the nation ripe for insidious propaganda and a civil war. It's almost like certain types of leaders thrive when their nation is struggling, as a fearful populace is one that more readily gives up its own civil liberties in order to "Keep those barbarians from our gates!" Reminds me of the excellent Harvey Dent quote in The Dark Knight where he describes exactly this phenomenon when the Romans appoint a "temporary" dictator and then said leader decides he doesn't want to give up the reins.
Moving on, I was really surprised when the Selkirk brothers got offed, particularly Miklos, as he was pretty well established in the Last Mythal trilogy. I figured he'd be a fixture in Sembian politics for quite some time. Apparently not.
Has Erevis Cale perhaps grown a little too strong? His shadowstep ability seems to have tremendous range and no limit to how frequently he can use it, not even a mention of it tiring or straining him in the slightest. That alone would make him an infuriating and extremely difficult to beat opponent. But then the healing factor! What is it about regeneration we find so appealing in our heroes? Because it allows them to take incredible amounts of punishment, but yet they still have to suffer through the pain, making their actions all the more noble? Throw in well-above average swordwork, a very powerful magical blade (Weaveshear), several other magical trinkets, and powerful clerical spells, and Cale is becoming nigh unbeatable. But unlike other Chosen, I really dig how conflicted he is, which allows the character to still be compelling even as his personal power levels continue to rise.
Elyril stole the show. Her insanity/addiction to minddust is so well written. Half the time I don't know if what she's seeing is a sign from her goddess or just her being bat-poop crazy. Magadon's arc is also heating up in a good way. I liked him in the earlier trilogy but now he's getting really interesting.
@Seravin - I know you don't care for this trilogy because it's going to transform Sembia. All I can say to that is: I don't think it's going to affect me as much, simply because I never had much of a feel for Sembia. They've always just been that rich, greedy, mercantile country that tries to buy everyone out and is a thorn in Cormyr's side. Meh, not enough to really resonate with me. True, it did start to flesh out a bit more in the earlier Uskevren books, but even still all I really learned was they have a deep, shared racism against elves. So... if the whole nation gets turned into spooky "shadowland", that's not going to bother me as much as what I know will be happening to Thay, for example.
Currently reading book 2, Shadowstorm and am tearing through it at an alarming rate!
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Edited by - VikingLegion on 13 Jul 2018 15:52:40 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2018 : 03:14:10
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What was done to Sembia has been undone during the transition to the 5e era Forgotten Realms anyway. Personally, I enjoyed this series despite its impact, but there's one change (no spoilers) that I didn't like--at all. Then again, that change too has been undone, and unlike many other changes that received a well deserved "rollback" this particular one also got to be undone through a novel, rather than a few lines in tangentially related novels, or in a sourcebook.
The 2 series that I hated from the bottom of my heart were Empyrean Odyessey and Lady Penitent, because of their changes, wild mistakes (in the latter), and because they weren't even good IMO (LP also had many real WTF moments--not of the good kind). You could really tell that it was just WotC pressing their hands to have stuff happen for 4e (and they admitted as much). The Haunted Lands trilogy (Thay) was a very good series, written under a misguided editorial mandate. Too bad, really.
Then again, the transition to the 5e era undid EO and LP, while Thay has undergone some changes towards its previous version, but it's pretty much what it was after the Haunted Lands. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 13 Jul 2018 03:17:13 |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1265 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2018 : 08:26:56
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Yep - 5e undoes the changes and Sembia is back to Sembia - so I'm okay there. A huge pity they can't just make Thay back to how it was pre-Haunted Lands. As I've stated a huge number of times, Vassa would've have made a much better place for Szass to rule as undead lich king; and keep Thay the Mageocracy.
As for Sembia - I did have a huge love for the gothic cities, the Sembia series, and the detailed write ups the cities got in the 2nd Edition material. It was blank in 1st Edition because it was meant to the the DMs playground, but they reverted quickly in 2nd edition to have it detailed out. A Merchantocracy to me *is* interesting, and sort of akin to a Meritocracy and advanced capitalism ruling which would have been ahead of its time.
Why couldn't the Shade just rule their flying cities and park them over Anauroch or the Stonelands? Would have added them to the world, they could still be a threat and fly anywhere, but Sembia wuld have stayed where it is? Oh right..we need RSE to DESTROY what was there and remove things people like so we can add "the cool"! It was typical thinking of the time and has all been undone now at least. |
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PaulSKemp
Forgotten Realms Author
808 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2018 : 14:22:07
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quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion
Currently reading book 2, Shadowborn and am tearing through it at an alarming rate!
For anyone who comes to the series late: It was typical at the time the Twilight War came out for WotC to also release a related anthology. In this case, the Antho was called "Realms of War." Alas, that book is long out of print and the is not available in e-format.
I mention this because my short story in that anthology, "Continuum," takes place (in part) after the end of SHADOWSTORM but before the beginning of SHADOWREALM and depicts an event that's important to the evolving relationship between Brennus and Rivalen.
So, for those interested, I've published Continuum on my website and you can read it here if you're so inclined: http://paulskemp.net/blog/continuum-a-short-story/ |
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe
USA
483 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2018 : 15:58:32
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quote:
Originally posted by PaulSKemp
For anyone who comes to the series late: It was typical at the time the Twilight War came out for WotC to also release a related anthology. In this case, the Antho was called "Realms of War." Alas, that book is long out of print and the is not available in e-format.
I mention this because my short story in that anthology, "Continuum," takes place (in part) after the end of SHADOWSTORM but before the beginning of SHADOWREALM and depicts an event that's important to the evolving relationship between Brennus and Rivalen.
So, for those interested, I've published Continuum on my website and you can read it here if you're so inclined: http://paulskemp.net/blog/continuum-a-short-story/
My goodness, I typed the wrong name for book 2, calling it "Born" instead of "Storm". Thanks for the correction as well as the heads-up on the anthology. I'm about 2 (or 1 long) session(s) away from finishing ShadowSTORM, and probably would've went right on into Shadowrealm without even checking. I do have a physical copy of Realms of War, so I'll definitely sandwich that in.
Also, thanks for checking out the thread. I can't speak for everyone but I know I always get a little jolt of excitement when I see one of the authors shares some insight with us. |
Edited by - VikingLegion on 13 Jul 2018 15:59:06 |
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe
USA
483 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2018 : 16:01:55
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I finished Shadowstorm last night. I love how Mephistopheles was portrayed. Now THAT is how an immortal being of great power should be written. We've been talking a bit recently of gods and such, and while not a true deity, Mephisto is pretty high up the food chain. His power, majesty, and authority really jump off the page, unlike the bumbling buffoon Iyachtu Xvim, or that silly little strumpet Mystra. There's also an interesting schism within the church of Lathander, with a new faction called The Risen Sun. Wait, how could Lathander allow his own church to fracture in this manner? Wouldn't he simply appear and set them straight, or at the very least send visions/omens to whichever side is interpreting his message incorrectly? I guess sometimes the gods do let mortals figure it out on their own, eh? 
The battle scene where Abelar's forces charged the mercenaries that outnumbered them 2:1 was absolutely stirring. I think Kemp perfectly utilizes the D&D rules and spellset so that if you are familiar with the line you know exactly what the paladins, priests, and mages are casting and what effect they are having. Yet he doesn't pile it on so thick as to make it overbearing or inaccessible to readers without encyclopedic knowledge of the game rules. We talked a while back in this thread about how the hybrid casters (rangers, paladins) rarely are portrayed in the novels as casting any spells, but here we see Abelar use his divine powers quite a bit and is much more than just a "holy fighter". The way he inspired his fellow troops with both prayer and his inherent charisma was awesome.
The abduction of his son, Elden, was heartbreaking. Even though you could feel it was inevitable, I still held out a shred of hope that he was going to get away with the servant girl into the nearby woods. Another fine example of Kemp's ability to build tension. Poor "Bowney"...
I'm not sure how I feel about Abelar's apparent fall from grace. On the one hand, Elden is Abelar's one great weakness, so I totally understand him falling apart like that. On the other, he just witnessed a major miracle in the form of Lathander's sunrise cleansing the entire plague village. He also asked for a sign of his son and witnessed his shield being fully restored and then was even pointed in Elden's direction. He lacked only the army strength to physically take him back. For him to turn on his god for "allowing" this to happen to his son seems pretty petulant and entitled of him. I'm eager to see the outcome of him throwing the shield into a lake and grudge-dueling Malkur Forrin in the pre-dawn: "This is nothing to be done under the light of the sun." The light and dark metaphors were laid on pretty thick but they worked really well. I'm eager to see where this leaves Abelar and Lathander. Has he fully fallen or can he atone? As Riven said, once you start down that path....
Up next I will read the anthology Realms of War on the advice of Mr. Kemp before coming back to finish up this series.
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Edited by - VikingLegion on 18 Jul 2018 21:26:50 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2018 : 17:55:10
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quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion
with a new faction called The Risen Sun. Wait, how could Lathander allow his own church to fracture in this manner? Wouldn't he simply appear and set them straight, or at the very least send visions/omens to whichever side is interpreting his message incorrectly? I guess sometimes the gods do let mortals figure it out on their own, eh?
In hindsight, knowing what WotC knew, Lathander doing nothing for that heresy makes sense, because that "heresy" is actually the truth. He did indeed turn into Amaunator, and would go back to Lathander one century later (5e)--he changes face depending on what the Realms need: stability (Amaunator) or hope&renewal (Lathander). I guess it was a preparation for 4e, like many of the end 3e novels were.
The matter is even more subtle, because the heresy didn't require people to go around and commit heinous actions in the name of Lathander. if we set aside doing evil crap, Lathander is pretty laid back when it comes to belief held by mortals, as he has tolerated a similar belief for a long time.
That said, as of Post-Sundering/5e, WotC had Amaunator and Lathander take an existence of their own (possibly consolidated by Ao--he reshaped the pantheon as he saw fit for 5e--seeing all the people who actually believed so), rather than being 2 faces of the same deity. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 15 Jul 2018 18:22:35 |
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe
USA
483 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2018 : 21:26:25
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I have partially read the anthology Realms of War. I noticed the stories are arranged in order of their Dale Reckoning Year, so I figured I'd read the "safe" ones that occurred some time ago. I'll now put this back on the shelf and revisit the rest of the tales after I catch up in the main line of products. So...
Continuum - Paul S. Kemp - as he already explained just a few posts above this one, Kemp tells the tale of Rivalen murdering his mother in order to seal his pact with Shar. His younger brother, Brennus, stumbles across evidence of the slaying and vows to uncover the culprit. This story was not absolutely mandatory, but I'm definitely glad I read it. Good start to the collection.
Weasel's Run - Lisa Smedman - a very strange tale about rival halfling tribes (one of which are Malar followers) at war. Some of the names were absolutely preposterous - like Sergeant Headsuplads. Ughh, I don't think even RAS would've let that one through. A very mediocre tale that is already fading from my memory.
The Last Paladin of Ilmater - Susan J. Morris - back in the Scions of Arrabar trilogy there was mention of a "Wasting War" fought back in the history of this region. This story explores that a bit further and gives some solid background info. Not a great tale, but decent.
Black Arrow - Bruce R. Cordell - a simple but satisfying yarn about a young man looking to leave his mark, but thwarted by an overbearing and influential mother that won't let him join the soldiery. He "Waterboys" his way onto the team, meets several famous heroes of the nation, and ends up being instrumental in repelling a surprise attack of goblinoid hordes, though at great cost. Now if I only knew where Sarshel was.
Too Many Princes - Ed Greenwood - a confusing, incoherent ramble that appears to be a Mirt story for about 90% of it. This is a younger, fitter Mirt battling against an oppressive wizard that seems to have his fingers in all levels of the local government. With about 3 pages to go, the Simbul shows up literally out of nowhere and starts blasting people, killing the villain. A page later, Dove appears for no apparent reason and kills a few more minions, including a wizardess Mirt was sleeping with, who apparently was slain and replaced with an imposter months ago. There were more characters introduced in this story than there were pages, but they were all utterly disposable and I can't name a single one of them just 2 days later.
The Siege of Zerith Hold - Jess Lebow - here's where I stopped. I think I could've read at least a few more stories without messing with the main timeline, but I was eager to get back to book 3 of the Twilight War Trilogy: Shadowrealm. |
Edited by - VikingLegion on 18 Jul 2018 21:27:46 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1265 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2018 : 23:02:59
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What!!? An Ed Greenwood story that involves a random wizard showing up out of no where and blasting things or saving/harming people? :)
quote:
Too Many Princes - Ed Greenwood - a confusing, incoherent ramble that appears to be a Mirt story for about 90% of it. This is a younger, fitter Mirt battling against an oppressive wizard that seems to have his fingers in all levels of the local government. With about 3 pages to go, the Simbul shows up literally out
of nowhere and starts blasting people, killing the villain. A page later, Dove appears for no apparent reason and kills a few more minions, including a wizardess Mirt was sleeping with, who apparently was slain and replaced with an imposter months ago. There were more characters introduced in this story than there were pages, but they were all utterly disposable and I can't name a single one of them just 2 days later.
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe
USA
483 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2018 : 12:52:27
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I finished Shadowrealm last night. What an amazing trilogy, I'd say just a shade (see what I did there?) behind the Sojourner story, and I only say that because I didn't find the conclusion quite as satisfying. It was interesting to see how broken and detached Cale is becoming. It reminded me of Dr. Manhattan in the Watchmen - as his power grew and grew he struggled to find any connection to humanity (both Cale and Dr. M) Both of them had their "grounds" to the world in the form of various people they cared about, but even those became more tenuous over time.
The Ephyrus chapter was amazing. His description of the dying world was poignant and powerful. Imagine for a second an area utterly devoid of all life, say... the size of your neighborhood - all living creatures destroyed; animals, plants, even down to the microbial level - and how sad that would be. Now multiply it by your town, your state, your country, your hemisphere, THE ENTIRE GLOBE - a complete cessation of nutrients, warmth, growth, LIFE. This is Shar's goal for the entire multiverse. Thankfully there are powers of life and renewal to check and counter her, but hey the bad guys have to win from time to time too, and it was an important (albeit depressing) chapter that was masterfully done. My only disagreement with this section was how the world was slowly falling apart with sinkholes opening up, but then started speeding up and was almost destroyed right as the protagonists claimed the Chalice and got out of there in the nick of time. Hmmm... how did the planet know those guys were on it just then? And what would've happened to the story if they showed up just a few hours later? That bit of movie tension/drama was unnecessary. I prefer Ephyras to succumb slowly, like the inexorable crash of waves against a cliff face eroding it over eons. That molasses-slow crumbling somehow seems more sad and devastating to me than a sudden fracturing and upheaval. It's just more.... Shar that way, I think.
I get a little bit frustrated by how similar the names Riven and Rivalen are. Not Kemp's fault, as Rivalen first appeared on the scene (to my knowledge anyway) in Denning's trilogy back in 2001, unless he was in a sourcebook or something prior to that. I found myself occasionally confusing the two if either name appeared early on in a chapter before it got established. Kemp himself crossed the names on page 185, where Brennus is in mental communication with Rivalen through his ring (after finding out Rivalen killed his mother) and writes "Brennus listened to the words, heard the hint of exaltation in his brother's tone, and seethed. He wished he could reach through the connection and choke Riven to death, hear his stilted, dying gasps, leave his corpse to end in nothingness with the rest of Ephyras." Oops! But it's easy to see why this happened. I have a similar pet peeve with Cormyr/Cormanthyr - though I imagine that one is easily traced back to some ancient elven etymology.
Abelar's fall and redemption was incredibly satisfying. I felt the inevitable pull of where it was going, but still found myself holding my breath in those final moments. Tamlin's arc was also fun to read, albeit for much different reasons. He's such a little twit, I found it amusing to see him get played so easily by the Tanthul brothers.
I was surprised by Mask's subservience to Shar and how connected those deities are. I also didn't love how Cale, Riven, AND Rivalen were able to drink from the Chalice and split the essence of stolen godhood. Cale's sacrifice also didn't hit home with me as powerfully as I expected it to. As magnificent as this entire trilogy has been, I found the ending left me just a tad unsatisfied, though I can't put my finger on or define exactly why I felt that way. The 100 year fast-forward to the Spellplague era in the epilogue was a bit jarring, though it looks like he's setting the scene for the child of Erevis and Varra. I just took a peak at his wiki page and see that he's just about done with FR books (which makes me incredibly sad), except for a 2013 offering titled The Godborn.
But I won't get to that for a VERY long time, so I have to put these thoughts on hold. I think Kemp is one of the very few authors I will follow outside of the D&D worlds once I'm done with this massive project. Has anyone read his Egil and Nix books? Recommend? Up next; I'm supposed to start the Lady Penitent trilogy, but I just couldn't find the will to do that, so I'm going with the first of the standalone "Dungeons" books: Depths of Madness.
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Edited by - VikingLegion on 22 Jul 2018 12:59:56 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2018 : 13:22:02
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| "Depths of Madness" sees the come back of one of my FR female characters, "Fox-at-Twilight"; I have a fond memory of it. Hope you enjoy. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2018 : 13:40:04
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| As for LP, when I read it, I already knew what happened in that series and the reason it had been written. I didn't want to read it, but I forced myself to. Honestly, it was a painful read (not because of the writing, but because I had to see something I hold very dear warped to utter unlikability) and I regret doing that. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 22 Jul 2018 13:44:01 |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1265 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2018 : 19:34:52
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| Aww I can't wait for you to get into LP because I think the chat around it will be very fun to read! |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2018 : 02:40:25
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Sarshel is in impiltur and is named after a prominent figure in its history. I'm sure George Krashos will be along at some point to provide exact location and historical details.
No need. Although the tale does support my view that the war against the hobgoblins in 1095 DR was a massive campaign ala the Fall of Myth Drannor, not just a couple of battles.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2018 : 20:52:43
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quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion
I finished Shadowrealm last night. What an amazing trilogy, I'd say just a shade (see what I did there?) behind the Sojourner story, and I only say that because I didn't find the conclusion quite as satisfying. It was interesting to see how broken and detached Cale is becoming. It reminded me of Dr. Manhattan in the Watchmen - as his power grew and grew he struggled to find any connection to humanity (both Cale and Dr. M) Both of them had their "grounds" to the world in the form of various people they cared about, but even those became more tenuous over time.
The Ephyrus chapter was amazing. His description of the dying world was poignant and powerful. Imagine for a second an area utterly devoid of all life, say... the size of your neighborhood - all living creatures destroyed; animals, plants, even down to the microbial level - and how sad that would be. Now multiply it by your town, your state, your country, your hemisphere, THE ENTIRE GLOBE - a complete cessation of nutrients, warmth, growth, LIFE. This is Shar's goal for the entire multiverse. Thankfully there are powers of life and renewal to check and counter her, but hey the bad guys have to win from time to time too, and it was an important (albeit depressing) chapter that was masterfully done. My only disagreement with this section was how the world was slowly falling apart with sinkholes opening up, but then started speeding up and was almost destroyed right as the protagonists claimed the Chalice and got out of there in the nick of time. Hmmm... how did the planet know those guys were on it just then? And what would've happened to the story if they showed up just a few hours later? That bit of movie tension/drama was unnecessary. I prefer Ephyras to succumb slowly, like the inexorable crash of waves against a cliff face eroding it over eons. That molasses-slow crumbling somehow seems more sad and devastating to me than a sudden fracturing and upheaval. It's just more.... Shar that way, I think.
I get a little bit frustrated by how similar the names Riven and Rivalen are. Not Kemp's fault, as Rivalen first appeared on the scene (to my knowledge anyway) in Denning's trilogy back in 2001, unless he was in a sourcebook or something prior to that. I found myself occasionally confusing the two if either name appeared early on in a chapter before it got established. Kemp himself crossed the names on page 185, where Brennus is in mental communication with Rivalen through his ring (after finding out Rivalen killed his mother) and writes "Brennus listened to the words, heard the hint of exaltation in his brother's tone, and seethed. He wished he could reach through the connection and choke Riven to death, hear his stilted, dying gasps, leave his corpse to end in nothingness with the rest of Ephyras." Oops! But it's easy to see why this happened. I have a similar pet peeve with Cormyr/Cormanthyr - though I imagine that one is easily traced back to some ancient elven etymology.
Abelar's fall and redemption was incredibly satisfying. I felt the inevitable pull of where it was going, but still found myself holding my breath in those final moments. Tamlin's arc was also fun to read, albeit for much different reasons. He's such a little twit, I found it amusing to see him get played so easily by the Tanthul brothers.
I was surprised by Mask's subservience to Shar and how connected those deities are. I also didn't love how Cale, Riven, AND Rivalen were able to drink from the Chalice and split the essence of stolen godhood. Cale's sacrifice also didn't hit home with me as powerfully as I expected it to. As magnificent as this entire trilogy has been, I found the ending left me just a tad unsatisfied, though I can't put my finger on or define exactly why I felt that way. The 100 year fast-forward to the Spellplague era in the epilogue was a bit jarring, though it looks like he's setting the scene for the child of Erevis and Varra. I just took a peak at his wiki page and see that he's just about done with FR books (which makes me incredibly sad), except for a 2013 offering titled The Godborn.
But I won't get to that for a VERY long time, so I have to put these thoughts on hold. I think Kemp is one of the very few authors I will follow outside of the D&D worlds once I'm done with this massive project. Has anyone read his Egil and Nix books? Recommend? Up next; I'm supposed to start the Lady Penitent trilogy, but I just couldn't find the will to do that, so I'm going with the first of the standalone "Dungeons" books: Depths of Madness.
Shame you have to wait so long lol.
Godborn was originally supposed to be a trilogy with titles: godborn, Godbound, and Godslayer
It got condensed into 1 book to fit into the "New realms" thing they were trying to do with the 5th Edition reboot and Paul was game for it as I recall, but it made that book feel rushed. But as with all things WOTC, they changed management every 4 months and new managers scrapped a bunch of things and refused to pay industry minimum wage standard to the authors, so a lot of the best authors left. |
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe
USA
483 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2018 : 21:55:04
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Depths of Madness was a mixed bag for me. I didn't like how so many characters were thrown at me from the get-go. First there was Twilight's original party that got wiped out just as I was learning them. Then she starts freeing a bunch of people from cells and builds an entirely new party. Just when I'm starting to feel them out, Taslin and Asson get killed. Also, much like my criticism of the RAS novel Promise of the Witch King, this story features almost entirely around the adventuring group with only a handful of tiny cutaways to the villain's PoV. This tends to bore me after awhile and makes the book read more like a D&D module than an actual novel.
Here's a self-quote from a short story by Erik Scott de Bie I made a while back: "The Greater Treasure - Erik Scott de Bie - I'm still getting used to this author, I think I've only read one other short by him thus far. He seems to really enjoy word play and clever phrasing. At times I smile and mentally congratulate him on some witticism or another. At other times I find it a bit smug :P" I stand by that assessment and find more of it in this book, so it's definitely his signature. I don't find it unbearable or anything, but it does come off a bit too cheeky at times, particularly for a story titled Depths of Madness and the overall tone.
Speaking of which, there were some excellent horror elements within. The creepy doll and bloody handprints were a nice touch, the slow but seemingly inexorable descent into insanity was fun to note the progress of. The dungeon setting of Negorath itself was a fairly interesting concept, particularly how it kept pulling in adventurers from various portals that were supposed to lead elsewhere - it had a bit of a "Saw" feel, as these disparate strangers are all thrust together into a high-pressure situation where they can ill-afford party infighting and distrust. There were some weird, random hook-ups in this book, particularly Twilight and Taslin. As for Twilight... sorry Irennan, she just doesn't do a whole lot for me as a character. I find her to be overly maudlin and mopey. And how many times does the author need to remind me that she's been burned in the past and now she trusts no one. Ok, I get it already, her life has been a huge crap-snack. Her connection to Erevan was only played around with, I thought there was much more room for development there. Also, not being super familiar with that deity and knowing "Chameleon" is his nickname made for some confusion. I was similarly unsure of Gestal/Lord Divergence, thinking they were two separate characters for a portion of the book. The demon-stitched troll was an awesome concept, though his stupidity was a bit overplayed for laughs. All in all I think the story was a bit murky. I'd have liked to see a little less snark and a little more clarity/exposition. Nice twist at the end though with Slip, I thought that was well-done.
Up next, well the LP trilogy is really staring me in the face, so I suppose I should just get that going. But I'm not going to (so sorry, Seravin!) Instead I'll put it off with one more quick diversion. I've started The Best of the Realms III: the Stories of Elaine Cunningham. This should be a fast read, as there are 3 new stories, the rest being reprints from other anthologies. So I should be able to knock this out in a day or two, maybe slightly longer if there's new commentary at the beginning of each entry. |
Edited by - VikingLegion on 29 Jul 2018 21:57:00 |
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe
USA
483 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2018 : 01:35:55
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No bosses at work today so I finished Best of the Realms III. There was actually a bit more to read than I had thought, as there were 2 or 3 entries that had appeared previously in Dragon Magazine that I hadn't encountered. Also there were entertaining commentaries in the beginning of all the stories, so I read those, even for the stories I had already read from other anthologies. Some random thoughts/comments:
The Knights of Samular - I found the story to be only so-so, but the opening comments were very interesting. Remember back when we were discussing Thornhold and how there were several loose ends? Well it turns out Elaine was under direction to purposely write the story in that manner, to be a "jumping off point" for other stories and authors to take from there. Well, as usual, editorial directives change and that never really materialized quite the way they envisioned. I recall in my commentary stating that I thought Algorind got a bit of a raw deal, being somewhat unfairly vilified for his actions, which were largely manipulated by others. Another poster told me not to worry overmuch, as he would get a bit of vindication in a future short story, and that was true. Other than that this story didn't stand out to me a whole lot. I'm curious... I don't remember if anyone in the Thornhold novel put A+B together and noticed the young woman named Cara Doon had a name so (not coincidentally) similar to the surname (Caradoon) of the original knight.
The Great Hunt - really good story about a clan of Malarites out on the prowl and facing off against Arilyn and Elaith. Craulnober utilizes some rarely seen magic in an absolutely brilliant deception. Liked this one a lot. Was I supposed to know who the big, burly northwoman was that tried to make a stand with Arilyn but got cut down?
Stolen Dreams - interesting way to take a previous short story and re-tell it from a different PoV. Wow, did Sophie learn how to be an arrogant, entitled noblewoman really quickly!
Possessions - a moody, haunting tale of Noor (from the Halruua trilogy) and her relationship with Akhlaur, the laraken, etc. Dark, but very entertaining.
Games of Chance - hated the premise of a mechanical device able to alter magical fields. I don't like mixing tech and magic, just a personal bias. If I could somehow ignore that (which I absolutely cannot), I'd have liked this story, as it is about Craulnober pulling out all the stops to create more favorable conditions for his family line. Also Elaine's commentary in the beginning explained a question that's been brewing in my mind for... I don't know how long: the names of Elaith and Elaine having no relation other than incredible coincidence.
Tribute - a cute, probably apocryphal folktale of how the residents of the proto-village that would eventually become Waterdeep finally fended off a dragon that had demanded human sacrifice from them. If I can nitpick just a bit... Tiamut?
Answered Prayers - interesting story. I very much enjoy tales that show the downside of resurrection. We've talked about it more than once, the fact that high level spells can steal so much drama from a fantasy world - but here we see why bringing someone back from the dead is actually against the best interests of the recipient, particularly if they've finally found some kind of rest, joy, or at least contentment in their afterlife. It makes the spell out to be more of a selfish act from the caster than a boon for the one being restored. Also some interesting philosophical fodder about the nature of gods and just how much they attempt to steer mortals. Good tale.
Lastly, this book had at least two references to something called Reclamation though that doesn't appear on any of my lists nor on Elaine's Wikipedia page. A cancelled novel? Was it finished and simply not published, or was it merely a concept project that never got greenlit? I MUST KNOW MOAR!!
Quick tangent - after looking at her complete list of works, I see something called The Blood Red Harp set in the world of the MMORPG Everquest. Holy crap, I practically LIVED in Norrath for most of my late teens and early twenties, I was so hooked on that game. I think I'll have to track down a copy of this simply because it combines two of my favorite fantasy elements - Everquest and Elaine Cunningham.
Up next.... oh man I really need to start that Lady Penitent trilogy. It's sitting on the top shelf, just staring me down, daring me to crack it open. I should do it, for Seravin's sake if nothing else. |
Edited by - VikingLegion on 31 Jul 2018 01:38:56 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2018 : 02:27:20
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Before you read LP, since Eilistraee means really a lot to me, and since I respect your opinion about the Realms book and characters, I feel compelled to warn you that Smedman's version of Eilistraee is not a good or accurate portrayal of her, not even remotely. The LP books are full of lore gaffes: from minutiae, to total contradiction of canon, to the drastic warping of characters.
Eilistraee is a prime example. During the course of the trilogy, it felt like the author went to lengths just to snipe certain parts of lore about Eilistraee and warp them to unlikability. This trend started back in WotSQ 4: for example, Eilistraeeans are welcoming and accepting? Smedman has males effing mutilated just for daring to watch a dance (which is just twisted, flat out evil, not to mention absolutely false). Eilistraeeans in Velarswood are friendly with the Selune worshiping lycanthropes in canon? Nope, Smedman has them mindlessly killing every lycanthrope and making an effing trophy tree like Malarites, etc... This trend picks up again in LP.
In general, her goal and ideal of redemption is distorted and turned into something that is IMO gross, and that has never belonged to her in over 20+ years (IRL)/30k+ years (and goes against what she actually stands for--but that happens later in the series). Her ideals are distorted too, and the metaphor used by the author to describe her involvement in the events of the novels is so antithetical to her it hurts (like, it directly contradicts the lore about her approach to the drow, while also stripping mortals of initiative--in these novels, the premise is to fight for the "control" of the drow, when she is known to strive for the drow to be free to find their path, and to be subtle and careful to avoid imposing anything on them).
Her whole church is associated with some really unlikable and quite disgusting stuff: bullying, exploiting a kid by sending him to his obvious doom (when, in truth, one of the main activities at the Promenade is freeing slaves and children taken prisoners), forcing people to convert before healing them (which is outright false and act of tyranny, that both Eilistraee and her followers simply hate. Eilistraee is in fact known to even personally help creatures who are not her followers—as do her priestesses--she has even declined followers in the past unless their faith was actually felt—see Evermeet, etc). There's also this obsession on Smedman's part to portray the Eilistraeeans as basically reskinned Lolthites, who are all out misandrists—not even just sexist, mind, misandrists. I mean, they are a "matriarchy" (the hierarchy is very loose among the Eilistraeeans anyway), true, and that's cool—I actually like it. However, it is a good kind of matriarchy, where the priestesses are to be an extension of Eilistraee's role of nurturing mother for the drow, and males can expect to be treated kindly and equally (and the word of those who show expertise in a given field carry a lot of weight when decisions are to be taken in that regard).
There are also mistakes in the depiction of their rituals and organization, all painting them under a bad light--for example, Eilistraeeans have no real hierarchy and see "higher ups" more like elder sisters? In the series, Smedman has many priestesses caring a lot about being obeyed. The Evensong, the most meaningful and intimate ritual of the followers of Eilistraee, is turned into some chorus and males are banned from it.
The Dark Maiden and her followers are also very militaristic and quite merciless in Smedman's books. They should be strong on compassion, on the possibility of change--it's such a huge part of their theme--yet those books only focus on them going around trying to kill stuff.
The argument of "but they have the baggage of centuries of living under Lolth" doesn't make sense in this case, because converts only make a part of the followers of Eilistraee, the rest were born on the surface and have a very different background (like the protagonist, who paradoxically is the most abusive of them all). The old-timers and the non-converts display the exact same trait that you would expect from a Lolthitie-lite.
That's just a Smedman/Athans thing. The one good matriarchy (aside from the wychlaran) gets turned into a bunch of warlike, merciless misandrists. Once again, this portrayal is extended to all followers (or nearly), not just a few groups here and there. The main character being abusive doesn't help either.
Then again, the novels were (admittedly) commissioned to apply 4e changes to the drow, not even the author liked the changes, and—since these novels get no continuation, not even a passing mention in anything—I'll say to you without spoilers that they bear absolutely no weight on the Realms. All that happens in those books gets reversed, and one particular event that happened gets treated as if it had never happened. Even if it makes sense in-world for that event to be forgotten, it was essentially retconned. Overall, those books might as well have never been written.
In short, don't take these books as an accurate portrayal of the drow gods, especially of Eilistraee, unless you prefer the version in which she basically is Lolth-lite (really, I may be looking at this with jaded eyes, but I'm not sure that Smedman associates any positive traits to them without polluting those traits in some way). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 31 Jul 2018 03:10:14 |
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Once More Unto the Breach!! *SPOILERS*
