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valarmorgulis
Learned Scribe

112 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2015 :  01:02:29  Show Profile Send valarmorgulis a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
First off, if you are a player in a game called Godswar, please stop reading. You will find massive campaign spoilers in this thread.

Spoilers below:
I am running a campaign that reimagines the ToT. One thing about the ToT that doesn't sit well with me is the somewhat uninspired event that caused it in the first place. I'm referring of course to Myrkul, Bane, and Bhaal stealing the Tablets of Fate just because they want power.

I'd rather come up with something a bit more interesting that isn't as cut-and-dry. Here's one thought: Jergal is the architect behind the theft of the Tablets. He plants the idea in Myrkul's head that possession of the Tablets would allow the god of the dead to take over the portfolios of his frenemies Bane and Bhaal. Jergal knows full well that the Tablets don't actually have that power, and that Ao will punish Myrkul by stripping his divinity. What Jergal doesn't realize is that Ao decides to punish all deities for the transgression. So, why does Jergal do it? Does he want to become god of the dead once again? Some other reason that is more plausible?

valarmorgulis
Learned Scribe

112 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2015 :  04:30:10  Show Profile Send valarmorgulis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Or any other ideas?
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2015 :  05:26:54  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Give it more than a few hours.

I'm still trying to think up an alternate spin, myself.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 20 May 2015 05:27:22
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2015 :  06:48:11  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, I postedd this around a bit allredy, but it's some quite great stuff about Jergal and the Dead Three, that's semi-canon:
https://paizo.com/dungeonissues/130/DA130_Supplement_H.pdf

starts on page 17.
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe

USA
403 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2015 :  07:55:50  Show Profile Send SaMoCon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just so we are clear, valarmorgulis, you want us to re-examine the motivations and come up with alternate theories of the goals of the Dead Three? If so, since the actions they perform are the same would it matter? Let's say the theory that you provided is true. What would be different?

Or am I off base and you are looking for some other trigger event and/or MacGuffin that changes the events of the Time of Troubles? For example, instead of the Tablet of Fate the Dead Three stole the Words of Creation which keep Aber-Toril from devolving into formless chaos. Ao is not just miffed that somebody stole the trophy off his mantle but that the other gods are less than concerned since they believe Ao can just fix any problems caused to the mortal realm. The recovery of the Words of Creation is to prevent the destruction of the Forgotten Realms but casting the gods down was to impart the understanding of the people who worship them and the responsibility they shoulder as gods tied to the mortal realm. Only the Primordials would benefit from the destruction of the Words of Creation, which is why the Dead Three would not be immediately suspects. This changes the context of the God Fall and the means for the gods reclaim their divinity since recovery of the Words of Creation is only half of what is required. Of course that makes what Mystra does even more arrogantly stupid & selfish, but that is one of many events that would have a change of context if not outright changing/preventing the event itself.

Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for.
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valarmorgulis
Learned Scribe

112 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2015 :  19:42:10  Show Profile Send valarmorgulis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm still going with the theft of the Tablets as the impetus for the avatar crises, but the events after the onset of the ToT can be changed. For example, there will possibly not be a Cyric, Midnight, or Kelemvor as I want the players to have the starring roles. Doesn't matter to me that this would completely change the Realms post-ToT since the campaign is really going to be limited to the ToT itself. Hope that makes sense.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2015 :  20:15:02  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I went with a completely different take and removed the godswar altogether, but I kept the outcomes of the godswar.

I looked at the permanent events (Myrkul in the Crown of Horns, the death of Bhaal, the destruction of Bhaal's assassins, the split in the church of Bane and the Zhentarim, the death of Gilgeam, etc).

Almost all of those events can be kept in their purest form without the need for a godswar.

The death of Bhaal's assassins can occur in a war with the Dark Dagger and the Rundeen for control of Calimshan's criminal underworld that was building during 1357.

The split in the church of Bane and the Zhentarim was brewing for a long time anyway thanks to Fzoul's different philosophical views to the High Imperceptor Szchuluan Darkoon. You can even continue this schism and have Fzoul turn to Iyachtu Xvim for aid and Manshoon manipulate an army out of Thar to destroy Zhentil Keep (no need for Cyric's madness).

The events in Unther had been brewing for a long time and needed no godswar to occur since Gilgeam and Tiamat both had incarnations in Unther before the godswar.

Myrkul I had retreat into the Crown of Horns when Jergal's clergy finally grew tired of their subservience to incompetent masters of the dead and staged a coup that destroyed the church of Myrkul from the inside. Jergal then occupies the role Kelemvor took.


Its up to you I guess. I hate the idea of gods walking the earth and taking the lime light from pcs and the story. I like the events around it, just not the main focus.

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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe

USA
403 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2015 :  23:16:46  Show Profile Send SaMoCon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The one problem I am having when trying to reimagine the God Fall, a.k.a. Ao's exile of the gods to the mortal realms and severing of their godly powers, is that the Dead Three did not see it coming. Since the Dead Three were the initiators of the event, if they could not foresee the result then they could not plan for its side-effects, i.e. the other gods being cast down. The best any of the gods did when they had an inkling of the God Fall was to have a contingency that would protect them or hold a fragment of their true power.

RetCon-ing a 3rd party that would tip the Dead Three to the outcome would actually create more opportunities for longer term goals of the principal antagonists. The first thing to come to mind, planning traps and ambushes for troublesome rival gods that would be in place prior to the God Fall. This would shift the purpose of stealing the tablets from trying to gain Ao's power to provoking Ao into stripping all the special protections from the gods and penning them into one area where it is far easier to kill the meddlesome and the ones with portfolios that any deity would covet.

Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 21 May 2015 :  04:15:50  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So here's a thought... First, read this excellent article on Jergal: http://realmssecretariat.com/jergal/

What if the Dark Three stealing the Tablets of Fate was actually a compulsion laid on them by Jergal? Perhaps Jergal thought the Tablets had power that he could use to recreate the spell weaver empire. Or perhaps he figured that Ao would cast the gods out of the heavens for this crime, and he had planned to take advantage of this -- perhaps to slay some of them, or maybe to arrange some incursion by outside forces that the weakened gods wouldn't be able to oppose....

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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe

USA
403 Posts

Posted - 21 May 2015 :  10:43:29  Show Profile Send SaMoCon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So here's a thought... First, read this excellent article on Jergal: http://realmssecretariat.com/jergal/

It's a fun read, but in my opinion it is too much. So many bad things that mortal realms had done to others and themselves are now just the fault of a god's manipulations. The evils and excesses of Netheril are now caused by Jergal. Maybe selectively pruning the more invasive aspects and using that for ideas would work for people's campaigns.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
What if the Dark Three stealing the Tablets of Fate was actually a compulsion laid on them by Jergal? Perhaps Jergal thought the Tablets had power that he could use to recreate the spell weaver empire. Or perhaps he figured that Ao would cast the gods out of the heavens for this crime, and he had planned to take advantage of this -- perhaps to slay some of them, or maybe to arrange some incursion by outside forces that the weakened gods wouldn't be able to oppose....
I like this! This is a fun idea to have sprung out of George Krashos' writing.

Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 21 May 2015 :  10:56:47  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think you misunderstood, the bad stuff that happened is a result of the mortal known as Jergal.

And it wasnt just him, it was also down to Arthindol and Karsus and Ioulaum. Its not really any different than before.

Karsus was trying to stop the phaerimm. Arthindol was trying to stop the phaerimm, Jergal was trying to stop the phaerimm (and Arthindol).

Its the same end result, with the same motivations as before, except that now there is an extra layer of intrigue underneath. Its all very excellent because it nullifies nothing that we already knew and adds to it in many, many ways.

Most people on these boards were proposing that Shar had manipulated events all along, or any number of other gods.

George and Eric's way show that Jergal was trying to stop the phaerimm and sarrukh while trying to attain divinity and save his own race from extinction.

Arthindol wanted to stop the phaerimm and also stop Jergal so he cocked up Jergal's plan by reducing the number of wizards taking part in the ritual.

Karsus was one of those manipulated by Arthindol and so chose to go his own path to stop the phaerimm which was cast the Avatar spell. That was not down to Jergal's manipulation, that wasnt really down to Arthindol's manipulation either. Karsus reacted with such paranoia that he tried to save the world himself and ended up destroying it (which is exactly what we knew originally anyway).

Just my personal opinion but its one of George's best pieces of work with regards to lore, purely because it provides a good explanation for so many NDA pieces of lore.

The only bit i'm unsure about is why Jergal started messing around with the Imaskari, other than because that is his nature, which is in itself a good enough explanation.

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The Emerald Sage
Acolyte

38 Posts

Posted - 21 May 2015 :  19:50:26  Show Profile  Visit The Emerald Sage's Homepage Send The Emerald Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The time of troubles was an awful idea, in a role-playing game it should be left to the DM to involve the gods as powerful kingmakers or even NPCs.

I doff my cap to you if that's what you're attempting. There are some hilariously bad online reviews of the tie-in adventures that accompanied this 'realms-shaking event'. Honestly, there are so many better ways to involve the gods in a swords & sorcery game but I'll leave it there.
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 22 May 2015 :  00:22:30  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's important to remember that Jergal and Shar are allies, and have been allies since at least the time of Netheril. I would wager that Jergal is the only deity that knows Shar's long term end goal, which is the end of everything. As he is the Lord of the End of Everything, I imagine that he is more-or-less on board. Shar probably needs Jergal in some way as part of her plan, and Jergal likely needs Shar as well. They are both deities who think and scheme on the order of millenia rather than decades or centuries.

I don't think anyone honestly believes Jergal simply gave up his power to the Dead Three because he was bored. They were likely his unwitting dupes from the very beginning.

There are also some who believe in the Tripartite Sun Deity, and that Jergal had to get rid of the portfolio of dusk to avoid his fate--otherwise he could have went the way of Amaunator.

In any case, we could have Jergal be the one to put the bug in Myrkul's ear. I would rework the Time of Troubles as the Dead Three teaming back up and working together to steal the Tablets of Fate. I would ditch the concept of Ao, since he didn't exist in canon prior to the creation of the ToT. Instead, I would have the God's being cast down a direct result of the Dark Three's miscalculation (which would be the fault of Jergal).

Basically, I would have Jergal tell Myrkul that the Tablets of Fate were a compact forged between the First Gods, which govern the nature of divinity. They basically contain the rules by which the deities are bound by, but Jergal would tell them that they could modify the Tablets if they had them.

The Dead Three successfully get the Tablets, but in the process of modifying them, the Tablets are destroyed. As the Tablets are destroyed, the gods are cast down. War between the Gods break out across the Realms as a result, plunging the Realms into an Age of Strife.

Once most of the Realms is a smoldering ruin, the surviving deities finally agree to meet one another to forge a new compact. However, this compact is weaker than the first. It allows the deities to return to their rightful place, but the strife never really ends. This leads to all the horrible events that unfold after the Time of Troubles throughout 3rd Edition. It's the explanation for why things get so bad, and ultimately end in the Spellplague (it doesn't have to happen like it does in canon, obviously).

Things just get worse and worse and darker and darker, leading the Realms downward toward a Crapsack World. Eventually, at some point, something has to give among the deities, leading to the 4E events of the Sundering.

After the events of the Sundering, whatever you wish those to be, a new set of Tablets of Fate are created and order is restored to the Realms.

I would make the Sundering be the ultimate plans of Jergal and Shar coming to fruition. Literally the End of Everything, unless they are thwarted. If they are thwarted, then order is restored to the Realms with the creation of a new Tablets of Fate.

I would make the Time of Troubles and the Gods War last much longer than it does in canon. Rather than having players focus on the event as a whole, I would have them focus on a specific event taking place as a consequence of the destruction of the Tablets of Fate. I would center lots of different short and medium sized campaigns around the Realms taking place within this time frame. I would take a page out of 4E's play book, and do a massive re-ordering of the pantheon.

Edited by - Aldrick on 22 May 2015 00:24:40
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe

USA
403 Posts

Posted - 22 May 2015 :  08:50:50  Show Profile Send SaMoCon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis

... the events after the onset of the ToT can be changed... Doesn't matter to me that this would completely change the Realms post-ToT since the campaign is really going to be limited to the ToT itself...


Aldrick, I think you missed a part of valarmorgulis' request and did extra work you need not have done. But on the parts dealing with the ToT you suggest that there is a coordinated effort between Jergal and Shar. If Jergal set the Dead Three in motion then what did he do with the one time all the gods were vulnerable and weak enough for even mortals to kill? If Jergal selected the Dead Three to take much of his power and made them his tools then why sacrifice them for an event that seemed to be out of his control and for which he had little power to affect the outcome? Could his plan be in support of Shar's?

Shar had been busy in the original ToT destroying Ibrandul and attempting to kill Sharess; which are admittedly small goals when bolder actions could have accomplished greater results. Maybe Shar had no intention of killing Sharess, instead creating a scenario for Sharess to be saved by Sune with the ultimate plan to put an agent/weapon into the midst of the divinities of passion, joy, and happiness (Lliira, Sune, Hanali Celanil, Tymora, and Waukeen). A sudden snuffing of the deities holding the portfolios of Dance, Festivals, Happiness, Joy, Money, Trade, Wealth, Beauty, Love, Passion, Adventurers, Good fortune, Skill, Victory, Elven Love, Elven Romance, Elven Beauty, Elven Enchantments, Elven Magic item artistry, Elven Fine art, and Elven Artists would certainly cast a pall over the mortal world and foster a grim nihilism. If the Dead Three also died without a new god to claim their power then Shar would also be able to put Loviatar, Talona, and Mask under her thumb. The only question remains how to do all this in such a way as not to reveal that this was Shar's game? Maybe these are mortal machinations and fully within the bailiwick of the PCs' abilities to thwart.

Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for.
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 22 May 2015 :  10:23:13  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon

quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis

... the events after the onset of the ToT can be changed... Doesn't matter to me that this would completely change the Realms post-ToT since the campaign is really going to be limited to the ToT itself...



Aldrick, I think you missed a part of valarmorgulis' request and did extra work you need not have done. But on the parts dealing with the ToT you suggest that there is a coordinated effort between Jergal and Shar. If Jergal set the Dead Three in motion then what did he do with the one time all the gods were vulnerable and weak enough for even mortals to kill? If Jergal selected the Dead Three to take much of his power and made them his tools then why sacrifice them for an event that seemed to be out of his control and for which he had little power to affect the outcome? Could his plan be in support of Shar's?

Shar had been busy in the original ToT destroying Ibrandul and attempting to kill Sharess; which are admittedly small goals when bolder actions could have accomplished greater results. Maybe Shar had no intention of killing Sharess, instead creating a scenario for Sharess to be saved by Sune with the ultimate plan to put an agent/weapon into the midst of the divinities of passion, joy, and happiness (Lliira, Sune, Hanali Celanil, Tymora, and Waukeen). A sudden snuffing of the deities holding the portfolios of Dance, Festivals, Happiness, Joy, Money, Trade, Wealth, Beauty, Love, Passion, Adventurers, Good fortune, Skill, Victory, Elven Love, Elven Romance, Elven Beauty, Elven Enchantments, Elven Magic item artistry, Elven Fine art, and Elven Artists would certainly cast a pall over the mortal world and foster a grim nihilism. If the Dead Three also died without a new god to claim their power then Shar would also be able to put Loviatar, Talona, and Mask under her thumb. The only question remains how to do all this in such a way as not to reveal that this was Shar's game? Maybe these are mortal machinations and fully within the bailiwick of the PCs' abilities to thwart.


Yeah, I missed that unfortunately. I only read the original post and briefly skimmed the rest.

Honestly, I don't think we can (or should) clearly outline the long term goals of Shar and Jergal. We know their ultimate end goal (the end of everything), but we don't know the intermediary steps they are taking to get there. I mean, facing facts, if Shar and Jergal have been scheming for millenia, it undercuts their intelligence considerably that a mortal could actually figure out their plans. They are simply thinking and scheming on time scales unfathomable to mortals. So, if a mortal were to actually figure out that Jergal was behind it, they might not figure out that Shar was involved. Then, if they figured out the end goal, they still might not be able to figure out whether or not they are closer to their goals or were setback.

Jergal, after all, is the deity of fatalism, which is the belief that all events are predetermined and therefore inevitable. This is why he is the Lord of the End of Everything, and why he is working with Shar--because her end goal is inevitable. It cannot be stopped, perhaps not even with her utter destruction. At best, the End of Everything can only be delayed.

However, we don't want the Realms to be completely deterministic. So, I would argue that only certain events are inevitable, and they are inevitable because of previous events. Jergal can perfectly predict inevitable events. Outside of that, a degree of free will exists in the form of probability. Therefore, any event in which the PC's are involved there is at least a small chance that Jergal will experience a setback.

Let me give an example of real world inevitable and probable events. Due to entropy our universe will die as a result of heat death. All the stars will die, new stars will not be formed, and the universe will be completely dark. Eventually, even black holes will disappear due to Hawking Radiation. We know these are inevitable and unavoidable events due to the laws of physics. An example of a probable event is blacking out while drunk. Every time you take a drink, you increase the chances of blacking out. Each new drink increases that probability. Certain drinks will increase that probability more than others. Eventually, blacking out becomes inevitable and unavoidable.

Jergal would see both types of events, both those events that are inevitable, as well as the events that are probable. His role as the deity of fatalism is to make probable events inevitable events.

Therefore, Jergal knows his death is inevitable, and cannot be avoided. However, he can perfectly predict the probability of it happening at any one time. By doing this he can avoid situations in which the inevitability of his death happens. Thus, he gives his power to the Dark Three, playing with the laws of probability to push back the inevitable.

Similarly, Jergal would have foreseen the destruction of the Tablets of Fate by the deities and the Godswar. These were perhaps inevitable events. However, he would have some degree of influence over it happening when it did. Thus, he tells Myrkul about the Tablets of Fate, knowing that he will tell Bhaal and Bane, and that they will act in such a way that leads to the Tablets destruction. He knows this will happen before he even utters the first words to Myrkul.

He has it happen now for... what reason? Who can say? Ideally, it would be because of whatever event the PC's get caught up in...

...if we go by canon, Jergal would have foreseen the inevitable death of Mystra, and the rise of a new Mystra. He would have also foreseen the inevitable death of the Dark Three, and predicted with a high degree of accuracy the rise of Cyric. He would have foreseen Cyric's rise would lead to conflicts between the deities, and in particular a conflict with the new Mystra. Then at the right moment, he would know when the best time was to strike the new Mystra, and would urge Shar to use Cyric. Thus, the Time of Troubles, from the perspective of Jergal, had nothing to do with the Dark Three directly, but rather the rise of Cyric and the Spellplague.

However, because Jergal can see the inevitable, he is looking far beyond the Spellplague and even the Sundering. ...and of course, certain events may lead to setbacks. Because the universe is not wholly deterministic, and operates on probability, setbacks can happen. Thus, there was always a chance that Cyric's rise could have failed. Or that desired events after the Spellplague failed.

However, Jergal and Shar are both immortal. A setback is meaningless to them, because they have all the time in the world, and their eventual success is unavoidable. Much like the heat death of our universe.

In a game the PC's would be the wildcards that would prevent Jergal from making the desired event inevitable. He can only do things to make the desired event more and more probable. ...and the event itself should not be the final goal, but a stepping stone to some other stepping stone that brings them closer to their end goal. The stepping stone beyond this immediate goal shouldn't be revealed to PC's (and doesn't even have to be known by the DM), because Jergal is thinking on non-mortal timescales. You can never be certain that an event isn't happening in Jergal's favor.

If the PC's discover Jergal's involvement in events, and decide they want to thwart him, they should be left with a final question, "Did I win? Or did Jergal win?" There should be some huge ambiguity. Primarily, because PC's actions are altering probability, which Jergal would foresee, and he would adjust his plans accordingly. The PC's actions could open up other opportunities that they themselves did not foresee, perhaps even unintentionally strengthening Jergal's hand, making an even worse outcome more likely in the distant future. ...and thus, while they thought they were fighting against Jergal, it was all a ruse to get them to do exactly what he wanted, to engineer another event that they unintentionally caused but Jergal forsaw.

Edited by - Aldrick on 22 May 2015 10:32:35
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The Emerald Sage
Acolyte

38 Posts

Posted - 22 May 2015 :  17:46:06  Show Profile  Visit The Emerald Sage's Homepage Send The Emerald Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The role of Ao is definitely worth considering as a DM. The best way you can have fun with the gods of faerun is to play them like the dramatis personae of Greek myth or the meddling angels of Star Trek's Q continuum. Involving an overpower like Ao who gives the gods a rap on the knuckles every so often diminishes everything. Not that Ao can't exist in your campaign, but might be best represented as a quixotic philosophical school like Taoism.

I don't have to worry about alignment in my campaign so I can really involve the gods, taking a thing or two from Greek or Norse mythology. So Mahsk or even Cyric become trickster gods. The benevolent deities debate endlessly over whether they should intervene and how - forget the portfolios and the alignments, how can you make the gods interesting characters in your story?

Edited by - The Emerald Sage on 22 May 2015 18:00:20
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valarmorgulis
Learned Scribe

112 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2015 :  06:26:08  Show Profile Send valarmorgulis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I still haven't quite figured out Jergal's plan, but the campaign has started and the players are all in Waterdeep attempting to deal with a massive wild surge that has devastated the city. Fires everywhere from magical items exploding, Undermountain's gates opening directly into the city, etc... It's amazing how much damage an exploding helm of brilliance can do.

Two of the players are playing deities (Torm and Brandobaris) and the other three are playing very high-level mortals.

Any ideas for fun and interesting things that could happen during a wild surge in Waterdeep?
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valarmorgulis
Learned Scribe

112 Posts

Posted - 25 Aug 2015 :  03:58:24  Show Profile Send valarmorgulis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not that anyone cares, but I thought I'd give an update to the campaign planning. I couldn't really fit Jergal into the plot in a way that worked to my satisfaction, so I've decided to try another tack and am centering the arch-plot around Shar's attempt to destroy her sister Selune. A quick note: I am ignoring most everything that happened post ToT, canon or not. So it really doesn't matter if this plot doesn't fit with any canon material post-ToT.

Shar herself is not powerful enough to defeat Selune, but she knows that she could if she were able to recover the part of her essence lost to Mystra. Thus, she seeks a way to destroy Mystra and absorb her essence (which seems very "classic FR" to me). Of course there's the small problem that Mystra is more powerful than Shar and so could never be defeated in a straight-up fight.

Shar learns of an artifact of great power, the Tablets of Fate, that can be used to cast down deities and so she manipulates Mask (or makes a deal with him) to steal the Tablets, thinking that she will be able to defeat Mystra once the deity is diminished in power. She doesn't realize that all deities will be cast down, including herself.

I'd like to fit Savras into this plot as well. Savras, knowing that the gods would be cast down, seeks to prevent Shar from absorbing Mystra's portfolio. However, his ulterior motive is to become the God of Magic himself and to force Azuth to be his lackey for the next thousand years.

Ao is all but absent in this version of the ToT. Maybe he exists, maybe not, but he doesn't step in to issue any decrees. Helm is cast down like all the others. When the Tablets are stolen, Kezef the Chaos Hound is released and chases down whomever hold them.

A secondary goal of the campaign is to reduce the number and power of the super-heroes that FR seems to be chock-full of. At some point, I am imagining an event where a weakened Mystra absorbs the power she invested in her Chosen, thereby reducing them to regular ole archmages.

Edited by - valarmorgulis on 25 Aug 2015 04:13:41
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Cyrinishad
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Posted - 25 Aug 2015 :  05:22:19  Show Profile Send Cyrinishad a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great update, I think the way you're switching up the ToT by having Mask be the perpetrator helps justify why he became the sword Godsbane. He could have had a chance to read the Tablets, and realized what would happen, and planned accordingly to ensure he came out ahead in the whole Avatar Crisis... A perfect heist.

quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis
I'd like to fit Savras into this plot as well. Savras, knowing that the gods would be cast down, seeks to prevent Shar from absorbing Mystra's portfolio. However, his ulterior motive is to become the God of Magic himself and to force Azuth to be his lackey for the next thousand years.



I think making Savras a major player in your campaign is phenomenal, especially since he (like Mask) is in the form of an Artifact at the time... One that Teleports and can Imprison anything it strikes, as well! In fact, Savras and Mask could be construed as having made a plan prior to the Avatar Crisis to come out on the other end of it in total control of both the Weave and Shadow Weave, respectively. Shar is the only blind-spot for Savras, unless he has Mask on his side (and gives him a heads-up about the Artifact trick)... Very cool.

To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates

Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss
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valarmorgulis
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Posted - 28 Aug 2015 :  06:31:22  Show Profile Send valarmorgulis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What other gods can be weaved into this tapestry?

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Cyrinishad
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Posted - 30 Aug 2015 :  22:56:53  Show Profile Send Cyrinishad a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The fun part of having Savras drive the plot, is that you can literally use all of the real Canon Lore as his ammunition to manipulate the deities and alter the course of events to suit him.

...and since you're having Helm thrown down with the rest he seems like he would a perfect pawn for Savras' plans. You could have Savras literally keep giving him glipses of Canon events, such that ultimately Helm decides that the only way to protect the Realms is to do exactly what you proposed... hunt down all the high-powered NPCs and eliminate them... You could even make him a major antagonist to the PC group since you have Torm as one of the players. Savras just has to show Helm the truth: that Torm is willing to turn all of his followers children into Orphans to kill Bane, and that not only will that act inevitably result in Bane returning more powerful than ever before, it will also cause Cyric to be given the Power of all of the Dead Three (resulting in everything horrific thing Cyric does).

...OR Savras could go with the "FR Classic" bad guys. He could warn the Dead Three of their original fates during the Avatar Crisis. My first thought was that they could try and confront each other's opponents: Bane vs. Midnight, Myrkul vs. Cyric, and Bhaal vs. Torm. (Just imagine if Bhaal's spirit kept posessing the children of Tantras to try and kill Torm... the children that would have been spared if he had battled Bane).

I'm sure I'll think of some more scenarios later tonight...

To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates

Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss
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Cyrinishad
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Posted - 31 Aug 2015 :  14:44:49  Show Profile Send Cyrinishad a Private Message  Reply with Quote
...after my previous post I was imagining what the other two confrontations could be like. I thought of what it would be like if Myrkul used his Necromancy to create Ghosts & forced Cyric to battle the Ghosts of his Mother & Father.

Then I imagined Bane choking Midnight with his Gauntlet, so that she couldn't cast her spells against him or contradict him... while Bane tells Kelemvor that Midnight never loved him, and that AO plans on making her & Cyric the two most powerful gods, while Kelemvor's reward for his loyalty to her will be a condemnation to be nothing but Jergal's puppet in the Fugue plane for eternity... and that Kelemvor should do the right thing, and join Bane against AO & Jergal's eternal game.

A couple of other gods that seem prime to be tapped for an alternate ToT storyline are Iyachtu Xvim & Kossuth. Since Iyachtu Xvim was just chilling under Zhentil Keep the entire time & Kossuth is noted as being missing in action during the original ToT.

To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates

Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss
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Veritas
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Posted - 02 Sep 2015 :  21:03:03  Show Profile  Visit Veritas's Homepage Send Veritas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Jergal himself serves some greater power (hereafter, the "Entity"), that in eons passed was a threat to all the planes and what would later become Realmspace. By means unknown the entity was sealed outside of the cosmos and has been trying to get back in. Tharizdun is an obvious choice from known villainous supergods, although I favor making it something new and more horrific.

This Entity is Ao's rival, and Jergal is the Entity's spawn, seeded into Realmspace near its creation as a sort of herald to prepare the way for the Entity's return.

Jergal engineered the theft of the tablets of fate to serve several purposes.
1) He knew somehow that Ao would strip divinity from the gods of Toril (perhaps learning about it from the dark whispers of the Entity)
2) Ao would be severely taxed by the effort to cast the gods to Toril (although to the gods, it appeared effortless)
3) The destabilization of the divine hierarchy and its subsequent realignment, added to Ao's weakened state fulfilled one of several obscure requirements to unleash the entity from its banishment and

4) Ao would not have the power to stop the Entity which would re-enter the cosmos through Toril and again proceed to devour the multiverse. Moreover, with Ao's vulnerability, the overgod himself would likely be the entity's first victim.

Jergal has been manipulating events and gods for many many millenia to get to this point. Mortals don't know (yet) about this looming threat to all of reality.

Because of the odd nature of the cosmos, even seemingly innocuous deeds may reverberate throughout the planes, fulfilling the conditions to either open the way for the Entity's return, or further seal him out of the cosmos. Player heroes can therefore meaningfully contribute to saving the multiverse (with or without their knowledge) by accomplishing adventures grand and small.

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valarmorgulis
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Posted - 30 Dec 2015 :  23:11:12  Show Profile Send valarmorgulis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've decided to revisit this concept and am now in the process of coming up with ideas for the Realms would be affected by an unraveling Weave. Here's a few that I thought of but I'd love to hear more ideas:

- In Thay, the seals that trap the demon lord Eltab (and a bunch of other demons) are weakened and he is freed. He proceeds to take command of the hundred-or-so other demons and they take their revenge on their former captors, the Red Wizards of Thay. Many Red Wizards die and others flee.

- In Waterdeep, gates to Undermountain randomly open throughout the city, flooding it with monsters. Khelben is trapped in the extra-dimensional space in Blackstaff Tower, unable to planeshift back to the Realms due to Ao's prohibition on planar travel (keeps the gods from returning home).

- Zhentarim/Zhentil Keep/Moonsea: The priests of Bane lose their magic and Fzoul realizes that he is now in a very precarious position. Manshoon eventually attempts to assassinate the cleric, but Fzoul escapes and goes into hiding. The clerics of Bane are purged from the Zhentarim now that they are no longer useful. Any Baneliches that were around have disappeared as they go searching for Bane.

- In Anauroch, the Sharn Wall begins to unravel and the Phaerimm escape. As their magic is just as prone to mishap as everyone else's, they bide their time and begin carving out a small empire in the Underdark.

What else might happen with the Weave unraveling?
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 31 Dec 2015 :  04:31:26  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis


- In Waterdeep, gates to Undermountain randomly open throughout the city, flooding it with monsters. Khelben is trapped in the extra-dimensional space in Blackstaff Tower, unable to planeshift back to the Realms due to Ao's prohibition on planar travel (keeps the gods from returning home).


Just a quibble... There was no prohibition on planar travel for non-deities. Waukeen made it out of the Realms by laying aside her divinity, and the denizens of Myrkul's planar realm were able to invade Waterdeep.

Obviously, if you're doing your own thing with the ToT, you can ignore that. I just wanted to make sure there wasn't a misunderstanding of the canon, here.

Now, if the end goal is keeping Khelben elsewhere, then you can simply have the wild magic of the time cause him to be trapped.

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valarmorgulis
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Posted - 31 Dec 2015 :  05:26:14  Show Profile Send valarmorgulis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for pointing that out. I should have mentioned that in my version, there is a prohibition on planar travel, as well as some other effects that didn't occur in canon. The planar prohibition extends to all planes except the Fugue Plane, so that the souls of the newly dead can still depart Faerun. Very little of the events in the canon ToT will occur.

Right now I have Mask stealing the Tablets of Fate, but he cannot decipher them and so they are useless to him (he doesn't even know what they do).
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LordofBones
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Posted - 01 Jan 2016 :  01:30:18  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I dunno, I think typecasting poor Jergal as the villain strikes me as being unfair to him. The poor bugger just wants to retire in peace.

But I do agree that Bane and Myrkul stealing the tablets of fate was uninspired, yeah.

Also, I kind of see Velsharoon going out, ganking an avatar and walking away with some divine energy; much better than having to grit his teeth and kiss up to Talos.
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valarmorgulis
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Posted - 01 Jan 2016 :  10:06:35  Show Profile Send valarmorgulis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Right now I have Shar as the original villain who wanted to steal the Tablets, using Mask and/or Llira to actually steal them. Then, Savras is one of the only deities who foresaw the Time of Troubles and is positioning himself to supplant Mystra (or at least Azuth). However, the temptation of the Tablets to literally rewrite a god's portfolio (not cannon, I know) will tempt even the most good-aligned of the gods.

Jergal will actually be the only god not to be cast down, as he relinquished his ties to Faerun centuries ago. He will remain on Fugue Plane to manage the souls of the dead...

...Except that the PCs at the end stage of the campaign will have to pass through the Fugue Plane to the Nine Hells/Abyss on their journey to return the Tablets. Perhaps that is when Jergal will make his move to take the Tablets and erase all the gods from existence. He is the ultimate nihilist after all.

Edited by - valarmorgulis on 01 Jan 2016 10:10:49
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LordofBones
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Posted - 01 Jan 2016 :  13:42:30  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Jergal is probably the only Faerunian power with tenure. Gods come and go, but Jergal is constant.

It's also a bit unfair to say that Jergal is a nihilist. He wants to retire, yes, but he doesn't have a vested interest in the end of the world.
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valarmorgulis
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Posted - 01 Jan 2016 :  22:25:39  Show Profile Send valarmorgulis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Part of his dogma is "life should only be prolonged when it serves the greater cause of the death of the world". In any case, IMC Jergal does have a vested interest in the end of the world, but he's no Tharizdun. In fact, he may have even stepped down those many centuries ago just so that he could be in the position he is in now to remove all gods from existence.

Maybe nihilist is the wrong word. Fatalist might be more appropriate.
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