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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Apr 2015 : 21:02:49
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So I've been picking over the old books with a fine tooth comb.
I come across this reference
quote:
Legends persist of runes once known to the dwarves that were far more powerful than the existing ones. A single rune of power was used to level the ancient city of Dharrmaghongh in Murghom, long ago. Elminster warns that although such runes definitely existed, no dwarven clan controls such power now; or recent dwarven history would be far different.
Having a few thoughts about this.
1 - What nation/race did Dharrmaghongh belong to.
2 - What time period did Dharrmaghongh exist in.
For 1 it could have been a Mulhorandi city, an Imaskari city, or a dwarven city.
For 2, derived from 1, it could have been circa -16000 DR, -3000 DR, -1500 DR.
Given the "recent history of the dwarves would be far different" statement, I take this to mean that the various dwarven empires may not have fallen if this type of magic had still been available, which rules out -3000 and -1500 leaving only -16000 DR.
So could it be that the dwarves fought among themselves shortly after arriving in the Yehimals. THe history of the dwarves notes that after arriving the dwarves split and migrated into Faerun, Kara Tur and Zakhara, which a further isolated migration into Novularond.
The group that migrated into Faerun settled first beneath Semphar (i dont recall any mention of dwarven influence anywhere in Semphar), which is quite close to Murghom.
So perhaps Dharrmaghongh was the major dwarven settlement in the area and in an act of civil war, or perhaps under threat from outside forces, they unleashed powerful rune magic that destroyed the city and settlement in the area. Most of the dwarves fled south and west to Bhaerynden, a smaller group fled north to Novularond (and became the Arctic dwarves).
Anyone have any other ideas?
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Edited by - Gary Dallison on 28 Apr 2015 09:11:28
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2015 : 23:59:05
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| I think Eric Boyd once posted something on Realms-L that said Dharrmaghongh was a dwarven city located beneath Murghom. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6645 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2015 : 15:09:30
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| Hm. Dwarves Deep says Dharrmaghongh was in Murghom rather than under it. Seems like a prime choice of questions for Ed, particularly since he was the author and it's clearly his city. I for one would be very interested in the location of this old city. If it was on the surface, was Murghyr or Phannaskul built on it, or is the location lost because there was truly nothing left of it? If it was a dwarven city, then simply "leveling" the surface structures would have left significant underground chambers, and there might be connections to the Underdark that still affect life in 1350/1500. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2383 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2015 : 10:19:52
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I never noticed before but it looks like Dumathoin only became the god of Shield Dwarves when the dwarves reclaimed Alatorin from the drow
Dumathoin was the creator of the Urdunnirin, so his worship would most likely spread after some close alliance between them and Shield Dwarves. When different clans united to retake Shanatar is one possible event of the sort.
The earliest possible point for this was, of course, when dwarves switched from mostly clan henotheism to unified pantheon worship. And we know when exactly this happened: when Shanatar was founded in the first place and the Wyrmskull Throne was created.
quote:
which led to Abbathor becoming evil
Didn't Abbathor get the grudge when Moradin chose Dumathoin over him as the patron of mountain dwarves (of any breed)?
quote:
Marthammor Duin is the dwarven god of wanderers and adventurers. Both of these things are fairly recent developments in Shield Dwarf society (and not at all present in gold dwarf society). So either he changed from a previous god or is recently ascended.
It' not like they didn't see the sky until very recently.
Surely, a good dwarf wants some assurance of divine protection during travels through unfamiliar landscapes? The part about adopting "the souls of those dwarves who perished while traveling aboveground" is very telling.
quote:
His preaching of integration between dwarves and humans
It looks like he promotes working with allies, not assimilation (in either direction). And keeps the city dwarves more in touch with their homelands, which is more of the opposite.
quote:
sounds an awful lot like Myth Drannan ideals so perhaps he is from the time period of Eltargrim.
Yeah, because how the dwarves and humans (and dwarven gods) would ever learn to cooperate with anyone else without elves of all creatures... 
What "Besilmer"? 
quote:
Haela Brightax seems even more likely to be a recent ascension to me. Her name is more than reminiscent of Brightaxe Hall (Alatorin) and so an obvious fabrication
Why this cannot be the other way around?
Not that "bright axe" is something so non-trivial to think of that there MUST be a connection. Especially seeing "May your axe be ever bright" used a generic wish-you-well. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2015 : 12:27:15
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Well regarding Dumathoin i found this in DDUGTTU
quote:
For the shield dwarves, the selection of Shanatar’s first Great King is closely tied to the elevation of Dumathoin as patron of their sub race, a position sought as well by Abbathor and Laduguer.
So it was definitely when Alatorin was reclaimed and the king of Ultoksamrin was made the great king of Shanatar. Dumathoin was probably a deity before then but didnt become patron of the shield dwarves (mountain dwarves) until that time which i guess we can assume is the first time shield dwarves were noted as a distinct subrace. Maybe the patronage of Dumathoin altered the dwarves of Shanatar in some way (although i prefer evolution as an explanation of the differences)
Abbathor then bore a grudge after this point and became more twisted and evil which ties up with the withdrawal of Barakuir from involvement in Shanatar and then its annexation by the illithids.
I get the feel from the book that the Hidden portion of Shield Dwarves are the older dwarves or those that are part of clan holds. They stick to the traditions of isolationism, and separation from other races to keep dwarven culture pure. They will fight with other races but everything else stays secret. It is this school of thought that is responsible for the decline in shield dwarf numbers over the millennia.
The Wanderers are happy to integrate with other races and societies, and rarely gather in any number in their own racial group. They have been freed by the dwindling power of the clans and many are clanless. They are the adventurers, the wanderers, and the dwarves most often encountered in the north.
The gold dwarves follow the Hidden ideal much more than the shield dwarves which says to me that this particular ideal is the tradition of dwarves and means that the Wanderer ideal has grown up over time as the clan structure of dwarven society has been eroded by their steadily declining numbers (something which the book supports).
I suppose it is possible that Marthammor Duin and Haela Brightaxe began as dwarves of something else and then morphed into gods of dwarven wanderers and adventurers, but their writeups clearly tie them to the north and the shield dwarves
quote:
Haela Brightaxe (HUH-ae-la BRITE-ax) is the patron of dwarves who love the fray, who wander the surface lands (especially in the North),
quote:
Dwarves who wander Faerûn and who must face unknown dangers, particularly in the north, often worship Haela “the Hard” whose specialty is luck in battle.
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Marthammor Duin is the protector of dwarves who make their lives in human society in the North, rather than keeping to mountain or deep-delve enclaves
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The Finder-of-Trails is a growing cult in the North, and he may be evolving into an intermediate power.
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The Watcher's advocacy of racial integration, exploration, and adventure is little understood by the hidden, shield dwarves who remain cloistered in isolated dwarven holds deep in the northern mountains, but they evince only incomprehension, not antipathy, toward the Finder-of-Trails and his priests. Dwarves of other races have little awareness of the faith of the Watcher over Wanderers.
I have found only one reference to either god in the Great Rift and that is Haela Brightaxe, and it is entirely possible that she was imported to the gold dwarves from the shield dwarves (there is mention of relations between the two peoples).
Taark Shanat is noted as being a Crusader which to me says he was a holy warrior of one of the dwarven gods. But if Brightaxe Hall was named after Haela and Taark would therefore have been a servant of her, why is she not the patron of Shanatar.
In Alatorin there are 9 statues said to be either the 9 children of Moradin and Berronar, or representing Taark and his 8 sons. In Moradin's entry i note 11 children (the Soul Forger is said to be
the father of Dumathoin, Abbathor, Laduguer, Clangeddin, Sharindlar, Diirinka, Vergadain, Thard Harr, Gorm Gulthyn, Marthammor Duin, and Dugmaren Brightmantle). Thard Harr was probably unknown to the shield dwarves of Shanatar at that time as he was patron of the wild dwarves who split away between -16000 and -15000. Laduguer may already have been exiled by the time of Shanatar because Abbathor was patron of Clan Duergar.
I note that Haela Brightaxe is not among that list and therefore not considered a child of Moradin. Perhaps Marthammor like Dumathoin was a deity of something else before changing gradually over time. Haela Brightaxe however seems more and more to be a recent addition to the pantheon.
It could be that she was a hero from Brightaxe Hall, or ascended much later in the North and chose her name as a moniker of Brightaxe Hall.
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2383 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2015 : 15:05:38
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well regarding Dumathoin i found this in DDUGTTU
quote:
For the shield dwarves, the selection of Shanatar’s first Great King is closely tied to the elevation of Dumathoin as patron of their sub race, a position sought as well by Abbathor and Laduguer.
So it was definitely when Alatorin was reclaimed and the king of Ultoksamrin was made the great king of Shanatar.
No, "is closely tied to" does not definitely mean "tied in some specific way you divined". 
It's "closely tied" because the king of Ultoksamrin - one of the most influential clans - was also the highest-ranked priest of Dumathoin around. Which in itself says something about the faith's status.
It could have been a key point that led to Dumathoin becoming their patron - directly or eventually, after the king in question proved to be adequate to the task.
Or it could have been an "official" confirmation of the setup that developed long ago.
quote:
I suppose it is possible that Marthammor Duin and Haela Brightaxe began as dwarves of something else and then morphed into gods of dwarven wanderers and adventurers, but their writeups clearly tie them to the north and the shield dwarves
Chicken and egg again:
- Those gods could ascend from the ranks of the dwarves who think this way in the first place, or
- they could raise in influence among that group of dwarves because the ways of said dwarves make a niche for them, i.e. demand for patrons with certain philosophies and areas of influence, or
- they could themselves inspire or at least encourage movements toward what they see as ways to immediately promote their agenda and ultimately save the dwarves in general.
quote:
Taark Shanat is noted as being a Crusader which to me says he was a holy warrior of one of the dwarven gods. But if Brightaxe Hall was named after Haela and Taark would therefore have been a servant of her, why is she not the patron of Shanatar.
"Brightaxe Hall", whether named after her or not, effectively means "the site of the dwarven triumph". And that's fine.
Haela Brightaxe is the patron of warriors of more adventuring persuasion, monster-slayers and berserkers - as opposed to Clangeddin, patron of honourable organized war. Dedicating a kingdom to her won't make much sense. A military order - yes, and there are many.
Dwarves in general are far from rash and prone to fads, and "reliable" is very high on the list of how they want to see their kingdoms. Even more so back when they weren't desperate.
quote:
Perhaps Marthammor like Dumathoin was a deity of something else before changing gradually over time. Haela Brightaxe however seems more and more to be a recent addition to the pantheon.
Most likely, yes - and Marthammor is considered "one of the youngest powers" in the pantheon.
Of course, there are no dates, and for gods "youngest" is stretchable very far. I won't bet on any number here.
quote:
It could be that she was a hero from Brightaxe Hall
Yup. Another big chicken-and-egg issue. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Crai
Acolyte
USA
42 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2015 : 16:51:05
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I'm definitely interested in Eric's description of the "Rune of Power" that had such strategic-level devastation capabilities.
I'd love to hear more historical/canon mention of these high-magnitude Runes of Power. I know my 3E FRCS book talks of rune magic coming from giants and dwarves over a millennia ago - although that specific reference seems to be of a much lower magic level than Runes of Power. Plus, they seem to have been used more in a protective/defensive capacity. I'll do some more searching and get back to you ... |
Edited by - Crai on 29 Apr 2015 16:52:47 |
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Korginard
Learned Scribe
USA
126 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2015 : 17:33:01
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Another interesting quote
quote:
old elven legends hold that dwarves were the first to work magic, but so greedily and wildly that it twisted their very nature, which rebelled against magical forces.
Could it be that the fall of Dharrmaghongh was part of this process that twisted the dwarven nature and made them rebel physically and culturally against magic.
Interesting that the Elves would say this. I'm fairly sure that they were using magic long before they came to the realms, and thier own misuse of high magic is clearly seen in the history of the realms. I also seem to remember that thier original home Tintiger was destroyed by misuse of magic but I may have that wrong.
It sounds like a lore-based explanation for Dwarven magic resistance and lack of wizards in earlier versions of the game, but it makes for an interesting Racial viewpoint. I'm sure a Dwarf hearing this would reply "At least we didn't break the durned planet!"  |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2015 : 20:06:19
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Well I'm thinking the Runes of Power were something akin to artefacts, relics from the gods, single use items of unspeakable power.
The Rune of Destruction blew up Dharrmaghongh.
I'm wondering if beset by enemies (kobolds and lizardmen), Laduguer granted his high priest in Dharrmaghongh the rune of destruction who then used the rune to annihilate the city and destroy the invaders in the process.
For this crime Laduguer was exiled (voluntarily or enforced depending upon who you ask). Laduguer is a god of magic, and magic weapon creation so its something that might happen.
Perhaps Dharrmaghongh was located beneath modern day Gbor Nor (Brightstar Lake), or perhaps in Gbor Nor, and the destruction caused the creation of the lake.
The gold dwarves continue on to the Great Rift and in -11000 DR Taark Shanat founds Shanatar.
Beginning in -9800 DR the Spawn Wars start. What starts as a normal civil war evolves into something else thanks to the use of another rune of power; the Rune of Rebirth.
The twins gods Diirinka and Diinkarazan were the replacement gods of magic of the dwarves following Laduguer's exile. As the patrons of the subkingdom of Korolnor, they gifted the High Priest visions of how to create the Rune of Rebirth.
The High Priest used it himself and was able to spawn exact copies of anything he "merged" with in an elaborate ceremony that actually involved him consuming another living dwarf. Over a thousand years the High Priest gained some diverse tastes, consuming a variety of underdark monsters, and his body gradually twisted into something monstrous that in turn had spawn of his own.
The spawn armies fought one another until the drow of Guallidurth arrived and conquered Alatorin, forcing the dwarves of Shanatar to unite to conquer the new menace. With their spawn armies they beat back the drow and then turned on the High Priest of Korolnor who had long since fled into the deeper caverns of Shanatar.
The twins were exiled by Moradin for their actions and worship of the twins disappeared among the dwarves. In the Lower Dark the High Priest of the twin gods continued to produced dwarf spawn, but these spawn were increasingly degenerate with each generation, leading to the creation of the Derro race.
The dwarves found themselves weakened by the Spawn Wars for none could discern a Spawn from a true dwarf, and within a few hundred years they noticed a measurable decline in the birth rate. It was at this point that the first Great King of Shanatar was given the secret for the final rune of power; the Rune of Purification. Unfortunately when he tried to use it, it failed. The pollution of the dwarven bloodline resulted in a curse from Moradin that severed the link of the dwarves with rune magic (if you can't use it properly then you can't use it at all).
It was in this era of Shanatar following the Spawn Wars that Marthammor Duin came into being as a god, when the mines of Shanatar began to run dry, the dwarves sent explorers and miners to the northern lands to find richer veins. Thus a god of exploration and travel was needed and Marthammor Duin was born.
Just a few thoughts anyway, expanding on some quotes in Dwarves Deep, DDUGTTU, and Demihuman Deities.
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2015 : 11:11:18
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Interesting stuff dazzlerdal, but Krash suggested that Derro are descended from clan Delzoun.
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I'm thinking that you could go to that perennial well that is Netheril and postulate that they were either the result of arch wizard experimentation on dwarves of Delzoun, or interbreeding between an isolated dwarven clan and Netherese refugees after the fall. Lots of possibilities out there though.
-- George Krashos
Several sites on the net also claim Derro are desended from clan Delzoun, but without clear refernces.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2015 : 14:18:52
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| I actually just found a nice (and reasonably priced) copy of Dwarves Deep on ebay and am definitely going to read about this. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2383 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2015 : 20:32:11
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Beginning in -9800 DR the Spawn Wars start. What starts as a normal civil war evolves into something else thanks to the use of another rune of power; the Rune of Rebirth.
[...]
The High Priest used it himself and was able to spawn exact copies of anything he "merged" with in an elaborate ceremony that actually involved him consuming another living dwarf.
Psst. Spawn Wars involved use of critters called "deepspawn". Who don't require anything very elaborate to do the job, obviously.
It's somewhat tricky to make the original survive the duplication, but - is it as tricky as doing the whole process from scratch? And given that copies lack memory, it's... not strictly necessary.
So more likely rune magic was mostly lost with its masters because it didn't have impact comparable to the spawn legions.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Now the two statements cannot both be true. Either adamant is an ore that can be refined to make adamantine, or it is an alloy of mithril and steel.
Editorial genius strikes again. My bet is on dump of earlier material, possibly even from Dragon.
quote:
I dont recall ever reading about an adamantine mine anywhere (there are plenty of mithril mines) so i favour the first scenario where adamantine is an alloy being true.
Uh, because adamantine is an alloy either way?
It is mentioned, though the most likely sourcebook to mention adamantite ore is The Drow of the Underdark, of course.
Edit: Dwarves Deep errata here:
quote:
Originally posted by Ed via THO:
So adamantite is the ore, adamant is the pure (and very hard but brittle) metal, and adamantine is the very hard, very durable alloy (sometimes shortened to “adamant” in daily usage, especially by non-dwarves).
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People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 30 Apr 2015 20:44:44 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2015 : 08:54:06
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Found another lovely little bit of lore.
A possible origin for the Anauroch's naming - the Royal House of Helm, a now extinct dwarven family whose greatest kings were Anarok (whose name is echoed in Anauroch). This royal house ruled Gharraghaur.
Now it doesnt say whether the kings "Anarok" (doesnt say if this is a clan, a family name, or the name of a famous individual, or indeed a place) actually ruled Gharraghaur, only that they were the greatest kings of the Royal House of Helm (from what i understand, a house is a number of families that are part of a clan who dominate the leadership of the clan and then usually a settlement/nation).
Looking in Giantcraft i came across another interesting piece that also relates to the origin of Anauroch
quote:
I pour mead2 to the All-Father for
Hrjurnur, son of Hjurgen,
leveler of Ranauroch,
son of Ottar,
quote:
From contextual clues, it seems that #147;Ranauroch#148; was an ancient kingdom or citadel. So far, to the best of my knowledge, no one has uncovered the ruins of such a city. For obvious reasons, many scholars theorize that these ruins lie somewhere beneath the desert of Anauroch.
Now to me the two origins do not seem incompatible. Ranauroch is almost the same phonetically as Anarock. Perhaps Ranauroch was a dwarven citadel that the giant hero helped destroy. Perhaps the Kings "Anarok" gained their surname because they came from Anarok (the giants may have mispronounced it Ranauroch). Dwarves tend to give the place of their settlement as their second name when talking to strangers (which in some cases can include dwarves).
Now i read somewhere that the dwarves of Shanatar sent out explorers into the north when the lodes of Shanatar began to run dry. Perhaps this Anarok was one such delve (probably existing between -9000 and -7000) that the giants discovered and destroyed. Alternatively it could have been a really ancient dwarf hold from before Shanatar's time that the giants of Ostoria then destroyed. (i cant believe that Taark Shanat was the only person to travel north from Bhaerynden to found a kingdom, and when the drow collapsed the great rift cavern the first time that probably sparked some unsuccessful migration north that goes unrecorded in history)
Anyway, just some thoughts. Not quite sure how the name reappeared in modern times after millennia, although the history of the giants is recorded in great friezes beneath the ice spires, in the underground temple of Hotun Shul, so perhaps the ballad is recorded there also and it was discovered around the time of the destruction of Netheril (Hartsvale is beyond the Ice Spires) so perhaps the huge emigration of people using the Low Road opened up a few passages and the temple was discovered and the dwarves recognised the name and hey presto you have Anauroch where Anarok once was. |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2015 : 03:32:22
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dazzerldal,
I have watched Ed sign dozens of copies of DWARVES DEEP at GenCon and other conventions, and I know he's signed hundreds more.
Whenever he signs them, he insists on making two corrections:
1. On the foldout map, "Rimmato" should be: Rimmator.
2. In the passage about adamantine, there is a misprint, introduced editorially. AdamanTITE is the ore, smelted down to yield adamant, which is very hard but brittle; adamanTINE is the alloy (that uses adamant as its key ingredient) that is terrifically hard but durable.
If you dropped an ingot of smelted adamant from your waist level onto a stone floor, it would shatter into many small shards. If you dropped an similar-sized block of adamantine to the floor, it would bounce, unharmed - - but there would now be a dent in the stone floor.
(The above all comes from Ed.)
So many, many copies of DWARVES DEEP are floating around "corrected by Ed." 
Who fixes the Realms in tiny ways every day, and large ones whenever he can.
love,
THO |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2015 : 15:05:28
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
So I've been picking over the old books with a fine tooth comb.
I come across this reference
quote:
Legends persist of runes once known to the dwarves that were far more powerful than the existing ones. A single rune of power was used to level the ancient city of Dharrmaghongh in Murghom, long ago. Elminster warns that although such runes definitely existed, no dwarven clan controls such power now; or recent dwarven history would be far different.
Having a few thoughts about this.
1 - What nation/race did Dharrmaghongh belong to.
2 - What time period did Dharrmaghongh exist in.
<snip>
If you look at my Hordelands map, I placed it just SW of the Mountains of Copper. 
EDIT: If it is supposed to be a dwarven city, then I probably would have placed it within the mountain range itself. When I read that bit of lore, it didn't seem to me as if it should have been a dwarven settlement, but I defer to more 'official' folks. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 May 2015 15:11:16 |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2015 : 15:49:20
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Dazzle, have you read Volo's Guide to All Things Magical? It has a write-up on Darksteel, and a number of other metals.
Short version: acts as steel, except lighter. Readily takes enchantment, even when already enchanted. Can be melted down and cast into a new shape without disrupting enchantments (requires oils in a certain very rare formula). Absorbs all electricity into itself without damaging the user.
So if you wanted a sword of disruption, just get a darksteel mace of disruption and recast it. And if you're in darksteel armor, you're totally immune to all lightning. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Dwarves Deep
