| Author |
 Topic  |
|
George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Apr 2015 : 10:12:24
|
Chris Perkins just twittered about the Sundering:
It needed more cohesion, transmedia support and resonance. I'm hoping our future stories will have such things.
Hope is a wonderful thing.
-- George Krashos
|
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
|
|
BenN
Senior Scribe
Japan
382 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2015 : 11:38:45
|
I'm confused - is this a mission statement, or post-mortem self-criticism? 
I think that clear communication (or lack thereof) has been on of the core problems. I wish Chris & the rest of WoTC the very best. |
 |
|
|
BARDOBARBAROS
Senior Scribe
Greece
581 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2015 : 12:16:46
|
| Let's see in the future but I see it difficult to happen |
BARDOBARBAROS DOES NOT KILL.
HE DECAPITATES!!!
"The city changes, but the fools within it remain always the same" (Edwin Odesseiron- Baldur's gate 2) |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2015 : 12:44:39
|
| They overlooked this for the most prominent RSE since the Spellplague, but want to give more visibility to some AP stories? It seems a strange choice to me (and no, it isn't too late to expand on the Sundering, since it was supposedly HUGE and drastically changed the Realms, its consequences have yet to be explored). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
|
|
|
Baptor
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2015 : 15:54:40
|
Gah...
I'm part of a major corporation, and I can say with all honesty that WotC is no longer the big player it once was. This seems amateurish and irresponsible. I mean they spent years preparing for this storyline that was supposed to restore our faith in the Realms. It was delivered in a sloppy and disjoined way and now they are saying, "Yeah dude, we messed that up didn't we? Well man, we will get it straight next time."
There is no next time! This was your big shot, and after the total travesty of 4e, your last shot. You'd already dumped on your Realms fan base back in 2008. Based on your history, your fans were willing to wipe the filth from their eyes and give you one more shot, and you didn't even try. You blew it.
I am nobody, but I love the Realms and had you given me this project (or just about anyone here at CK), we could have hammered out a better cohesive storyline in short order that would have served well, instead of this disjointed nonsense that answered precisely NO questions and gave us NO answers.
As a DM, I pretty much have no clue what the heck the 5e Realms look like, and that shouldn't be the case after so many novels which supposedly addressed the issue.
And all of this might have been forgiven had you made a 5e FRCS, which you've made clear you aren't going to do.
Nice work. |
Jesus said, "I am the Ressurection and the Life. Anyone who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and those who live and believe in Me will never die. Do you believe this?" |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2015 : 16:48:43
|
quote:
Originally posted by Baptor
And all of this might have been forgiven had you made a 5e FRCS, which you've made clear you aren't going to do.
I have yet to see anything that indicates they are not going to give us some form of a 5E campaign book. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2015 : 17:03:23
|
There is no point in going off on WotC if you aren't going to tell the truth.
It's not true at all that no questions were answered and that information on the Sundering is nonexistant.
There are a lot of things WotC could be doing better, but they can't be blamed for turning a deaf ear to fan feedback when much of it is incoherent and ranty. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
|
|
|
Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2015 : 17:04:23
|
| Cohesion and resonance could have been easily achieved if WotC had followed up with the team of lorelords they had assembled at the outset. The Sundering's failures had nothing to due with lack of transmedia support. Tyranny of Dragons and Elemental Evil both have transmedia support (if you count ties-in with the Neverwinter MMORPG), and both of those storylines are woefully underwhelming. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
|
|
|
Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2015 : 17:44:49
|
Oh my God, Jesus, Mary, and Joseph!
They wreck my head to no end. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
Edited by - Shadowsoul on 20 Apr 2015 17:45:43 |
|
|
|
Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2015 : 17:47:55
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
There is no point in going off on WotC if you aren't going to tell the truth.
It's not true at all that no questions were answered and that information on the Sundering is nonexistant.
There are a lot of things WotC could be doing better, but they can't be blamed for turning a deaf ear to fan feedback when much of it is incoherent and ranty.
Please stop defending Wizards.
You are starting to sound like that parent who is in denial about their child's awful behaviour. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
Edited by - Shadowsoul on 20 Apr 2015 17:48:21 |
|
|
|
Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2015 : 18:27:43
|
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Please stop defending Wizards.
Where the **** am I defending Wizards of the Coast?
Pointing out facts is not defending anything except the truth. If you have proof otherwise, I would like to see it. If not, back off. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
|
|
|
deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
237 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2015 : 18:39:52
|
| Words falling on deaf eyes, until they announce FRCS 5E. |
|
|
|
silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2015 : 18:43:19
|
| Haha get a room you two. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2015 : 18:43:32
|
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
There is no point in going off on WotC if you aren't going to tell the truth.
It's not true at all that no questions were answered and that information on the Sundering is nonexistant.
There are a lot of things WotC could be doing better, but they can't be blamed for turning a deaf ear to fan feedback when much of it is incoherent and ranty.
Please stop defending Wizards.
You are starting to sound like that parent who is in denial about their child's awful behaviour.
There is a difference between defending someone regardless of the facts, and asking someone to stick to facts.
A lot of people, of late, have been attacking WotC with little or no provocation, and in doing so, they are stating their own opinions or assumptions as if they were hard and verifiable facts.
I'll be the first to admit that WotC has made mistakes in the past -- my opinions on the 4E Realms are well-known, and I have endured a lot of attacks for those opinions.
And I'll be the first to admit that they've not handled things optimally, at this point, with updating the Realms to 5E.
But what I'm not going to do is say that their failure to give me exactly what I want, right now, means they are not going to do it later, or that they're not planning on doing it, or that they don't care about the fans.
A lot of people are are saying those things, though. It's getting damned tiring to keep reading the same attacks, day after day, from people who are operating from opinions and assumptions, instead of facts. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2015 : 19:12:25
|
Well, I certainly agree that the transition to 5E could have been better.
The Sundering novels didn't explain much, and WotC hasn't released much info since then. Do we even know if Tymanther and Akanul are gone and all the lost pre-4E lands are back? |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
|
|
|
Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2015 : 19:31:38
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There is a difference between defending someone regardless of the facts, and asking someone to stick to facts.
And the fact is that WotC themselves have now admitted they have screwed this one up.
So yes, blaming WotC for srewing this one is sticking to the facts
quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
Do we even know if Tymanther and Akanul are gone and all the lost pre-4E lands are back?
The short summary once posted on the WotC site heavily implies it's gone.
However unless Erin's next novel starts with the protagonists arriving in Tymanther only to find out there no longer is a Tymanther, it seems as if it's still there in the novel timeline (which may have yet to catch up to the latest FR timeline).
Adventurer's League expeditions take place in 1491 DR, but they have yet to touch about the area's of Akanul, Tymanther or Laerakond |
Edited by - Mirtek on 20 Apr 2015 19:36:02 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2015 : 20:16:41
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There is a difference between defending someone regardless of the facts, and asking someone to stick to facts.
And the fact is that WotC themselves have now admitted they have screwed this one up.
So yes, blaming WotC for srewing this one is sticking to the facts
That is not the only criticism being indiscriminately lobbed at WotC. Additionally, saying "we could have done more" is not saying "we made a mistake." I could have put more peanut butter in my PB&J -- saying that doesn't mean I used mustard, instead. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2015 : 20:21:28
|
Mirtek, nobody at WotC has admitted to any such thing.
One designer said they could have done more to support the Sundering. That's it. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
|
|
|
Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2015 : 20:26:56
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
Mirtek, nobody at WotC has admitted to any such thing.
One designer said they could have done more to support the Sundering. That's it.
He stated that the Sundering had too little cohesion and resonance (yes, and too little transmedia, but I personally don't care about that).
Saying that about your big project that has been years in the making and got big teasers and announcements is admitting that you blew it |
|
|
|
Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2015 : 21:02:59
|
The big project at WorC was designing and publishing 5E, not the Sundering.
You are right in that they hyped the Sundering and made a big deal about revisiting the Realms and getting it right. Then they started firing the people working on the Realms (their art deirector...I forget his name, but he was a voice for all the good things they were doing for the Realms) and other staff. They met with George and the other Lore Lords, then sort of cut them off and have not spoken to them again.
I am left with the sense that the big bosses at WotC had a change of heart, or that new bosses replaced old bosses and th new folks felt no obligation to what their predecessors were doing. Either way, what was said about WotC's commitment to the Realms was put on the table as something to be taken back.
When Perkins talks about more support for the Sundering, he is not saying they screwed up, he is saying in so many words that somebody at WotC decided not to follow through. The Sundering was not an error-filled project, it was short changed and under funded. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
|
|
|
Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2015 : 21:10:24
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
The big project at WorC was designing and publishing 5E, not the Sundering.
That was their other, bigger project. That doesn't mean that they painted The Sundering as another big project, with all the GenCon panels and stuff to hype it
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
You are right in that they hyped the Sundering and made a big deal about revisiting the Realms and getting it right. Then they started firing the people working on the Realms (their art deirector...I forget his name, but he was a voice for all the good things they were doing for the Realms) and other staff. They met with George and the other Lore Lords, then sort of cut them off and have not spoken to them again.
So we agree that they delivered far less than they promised
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
I am left with the sense that the big bosses at WotC had a change of heart, or that new bosses replaced old bosses and th new folks felt no obligation to what their predecessors were doing. Either way, what was said about WotC's commitment to the Realms was put on the table as something to be taken back.
Honestly, I don't care about individual names at WotC. WotC as a whole and what they put out is all that matters to me.
They're kind of like my backery. I know how the store is called, but I neither know nor care about the name of the guy actually bakehouse kneading the dough. I can't name the designers on any of the FR supplements in my shelf, I know novel authors more than game material designers.
I admit I don't even know whi Chris Perkins is and what books he worked on, I only take from the fact that his tweet is worth a thread on Candlekeep that he's a WotC game designer.
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
When Perkins talks about more support for the Sundering, he is not saying they screwed up, he is saying in so many words that somebody at WotC decided not to follow through. The Sundering was not an error-filled project, it was short changed and under funded.
Which resulted in screwing it up by WotC as a company. Could even be seen as worse, as obviously they as a company they screwed it up on purpose by whatever C-level-person making the decision to underfound and understaff it because it was no longer seen as important. |
Edited by - Mirtek on 20 Apr 2015 21:13:09 |
|
|
|
Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2015 : 21:28:25
|
See I think your conclusion is perfectly fine, save for the part of a low level person making the call on the Sundering. I wager it came right from the top.
However, that's not the same thing as one game designer at WotC saying "we screwed up." Perkins did not use those words and he is not in a position to speak for all of WotC.
I would give a lot to have been a fly on the wall at WotC as they plotted their course. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
|
|
|
Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2015 : 21:33:54
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
See I think your conclusion is perfectly fine, save for the part of a low level person making the call on the Sundering. I wager it came right from the top.
With C-Level I mean the top level. CEO, COO, CFO, C-whoever decided this Sundering thing is no longer important and reduced it's ressources |
|
|
|
Baptor
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2015 : 21:58:46
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Baptor
And all of this might have been forgiven had you made a 5e FRCS, which you've made clear you aren't going to do.
I have yet to see anything that indicates they are not going to give us some form of a 5E campaign book.
They've said plenty in interviews and tweets and at GenCon. All signs point to "no book."
It's true no one has directly said, "We will never make a book." but criminal cases have been prosecuted on less evidence.
Regardless, if they intended to make a book someday, but just not now, they are doing a TERRIBLE job of communicating that.
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
There is no point in going off on WotC if you aren't going to tell the truth.
It's not true at all that no questions were answered and that information on the Sundering is nonexistant.
There are a lot of things WotC could be doing better, but they can't be blamed for turning a deaf ear to fan feedback when much of it is incoherent and ranty.
OK so that was a bit ranty. My apologies. What I meant was the books answered none of the questions many fans had, or at least the ones I know and talk to here and elsewhere.
Also, if you recall, I've been one of the optimists on this board for awhile. You even thanked me once for supporting WotC and trying to calm others down. I desperately wanted to believe in them. But they crossed the line into dishonesty. Your significant other can only make excuses for the clothes that aren't yours and the hangups before you are pretty darn sure they are cheating on you.
Outside the APs, there's not a single person here who can run a 5e Realms game that's up to date without making stuff up. Most of us have been flying blind since the playtest started, and I've held back as long as I'm willing without answers to what (IMO) are the simplest of questions regarding the state of the Realms. I'm not saying they should make a book for me right now, but some kind of Web update article is not too much to ask.
Shoot, 3e saw some of the fewest changes back in early 2000s, and yet Dragon Magazine did a "Countdown to the Realms" which slowly revealed most of the important changes to the setting way before the book came out. There is no reason why WOTC can't do the same.
And yes, after 4e, they DO owe us something. If their goal truly is to save the fans (and they said it was) then yes they need to get their act in gear, fast.
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
The big project at WorC was designing and publishing 5E, not the Sundering.
You are right in that they hyped the Sundering and made a big deal about revisiting the Realms and getting it right. Then they started firing the people working on the Realms (their art deirector...I forget his name, but he was a voice for all the good things they were doing for the Realms) and other staff. They met with George and the other Lore Lords, then sort of cut them off and have not spoken to them again.
I am left with the sense that the big bosses at WotC had a change of heart, or that new bosses replaced old bosses and th new folks felt no obligation to what their predecessors were doing. Either way, what was said about WotC's commitment to the Realms was put on the table as something to be taken back.
When Perkins talks about more support for the Sundering, he is not saying they screwed up, he is saying in so many words that somebody at WotC decided not to follow through. The Sundering was not an error-filled project, it was short changed and under funded.
At my job: Not following through = Screwing up. People get fired every day for "not following through." That is no excuse at all.
Honestly, it looks like you and I have the same "facts." I am calling BS on WotC. You don't seem to disagree with that. From what you said, they hired a bunch of loremasters to help them build a 5e Realms and made lots of boasts, then fire said loremasters and acted as if they'd never made said boasts. That about sums up my estimation as well of what's happened.
Except to me, that's outrageous and unacceptable as a consumer. To you, it's not a big deal. That's fine. We have different opinions on the matter. Some think speeding is not a big deal. Some think speeding is endangering other's lives and is a serious crime. The facts remain the same, the point of view is different.
As always, I'd love to be wrong. I'd love it if, tomorrow, WOTC announced a beautiful full-color 300+ page tome FRCS for us to devour, repleat with Sundering updates or explanations. Heck, I'd be estatic if tomorrow there was just a PDF update to the Realms with a simple map and a brief "What you need to know." like what they did just before the 4e Realms release.
But I would be shocked, because while they've refused to be pinned down and give a straight answer, it seems as if they are desperately dodging the question. |
Jesus said, "I am the Ressurection and the Life. Anyone who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and those who live and believe in Me will never die. Do you believe this?" |
Edited by - Baptor on 20 Apr 2015 23:33:05 |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2015 : 23:35:05
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
I admit I don't even know whi Chris Perkins is and what books he worked on
He is the main D&D world building and story guy. Basically, if I understand it correctly, he is in charge of the various decisions regarding settings stuff (not in the sense of what will be published, but in the sense of what the settings will look like, what changes will be made and so on). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
|
|
|
silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2015 : 23:47:38
|
| You folks crack me up. As if anything could result from all this arguing. |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2015 : 00:08:45
|
| Cohesion... that I get.... transmedia support? resonance? WTF is even being said. I hate buzz words. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2015 : 00:22:57
|
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Cohesion... that I get.... transmedia support? resonance? WTF is even being said. I hate buzz words.
Agreed. It's like he borrowed from the Dilbert Book of Business Terms to write that tweet.
...
When I think about WotC's change in course with regard to the Realms, these questions come to mind:
Was it a change of staff?
Was it apathy towards the Realms?
Was it a worry that the brand (D&D) would be diluted by an equal focus on the Realms?
Was it a new budget that left no room for both projects? It’s entirely possible the games team was handed a budget that left them in the unenviable position of having to pick and choose what to support.
Regardless, there is a whole bunch we don't know. Crucifying WotC is not in the cards yet. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2015 : 00:27:53
|
| In many ways one might look at Hasbro, but even then likely never will get a clear answer. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
|
|
|
Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2015 : 01:23:22
|
I don't understand the current business model much, either. The hypothesis of a money squeeze seems to make the most sense, but really there's little to go by and my post here is just a lot of speculation and personal opinion. I agree the model doesn't seem to follow from the Sundering. I thought the Sundering was about removing in-world hurdles that stopped WotC from succeeding with the previous models of lore-heavy products. Same with the Spellplague, really, which had equally little purpose in that sense - 4e didn't do all that new lore and fiction which supposedly couldn't be done because there was already too much clogging the pipes. In the Sundering, the idea was effectivelly restoring that... but it doesn't seem to matter a whole lot if new products are going to be mostly core modules with some regional detail to go with them.
Not that I'm saying the new products are bad. Actually I haven't read them, and the reason is from reviews and comments I don't think there's enough in them for me to buy at current prices. The specific campaign stuff is useless to me, as I won't ever run them, or likely use any of it in a game. Would be less useless if they launched one I particularly wanted to read about, I guess, but so far they haven't focused in anything I'm really interested in. |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
|
|
|
Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2015 : 07:48:31
|
Even from a business stand point, what they are doing doesn't make sense. AP's on their own do not sell well to the point where you can rely on their sales. You have to back them up with other products because a lot of gamers out there run homebrew games and not published modules.
Also, Forgotten Realms is the wrong world to use if you are going to do a tiny release schedule and give us lore in bits. The world is way too established and lore rich for that to be acceptable to fans. They should have stuck with Nentir Vale for this model and used FR a different way. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Chris Perkins on the Sundering
