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Artblade
Acolyte
3 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Apr 2015 : 13:50:01
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Hi people! As the title says, FR is not quite what I thought it was.
I grew up playing Baldur's Gate, Planescape and Icewind Dale. I loved those games, more than any other I've ever played since. I thought they gave me a good idea of what the Realms was, and I loved it and wanted to know more about it. So I read a few novels and enjoyed those too, then lately I begun reading more and more about Realmslore and I'm sad at what I found.
Copypaste vikings and celts?
Aztec jaguar-pelt wearing natives?
Egyptian gods (literally so if I'm not mistaken?)
China, complete with NINJAS, Samurai, and a freaking great wall.
Dinosaurs?! I am fine with great lizards inspired by dinos, but make something different about them and give them new names at least. Warhammer handled that fine with their heavily scaled carnosaurs.
The people who live alongside these dinos could've been taken straight from modern Kongo, which I find very tasteless.
Maybe I'm just incredibly nitpicky. But I feel that these things are just added on and not integrated into the rest of the world in any way.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2015 : 15:13:25
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| As stated above, the Realms draws on real-world history for alot of things, but excels and the stuff that is entirely made up. Branch out a bit more and I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2015 : 15:14:10
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Well it's much more complex than that.
There Egyptian civilation, is descended from slaves, brought from our world, as well, as the Imaskari, the slavers that abducted their ancestors.
Imaskari are also connected to China-like civilisation, Shou Lung.
The Imaskari themselves, were increadibly powerfull human mages, who travele between worlds, and were powerfull enough to challange even gods up to a level.
The Celtic-esque civilsation of Moonshae Isles, was first started by increadibly old fey, the LeShay. The first humans who arrived on Moonshae isles, were feeing a mad king, who became shadow monster.
The above Imaskari, also had contact with the LeShay.
There are lot more complexities, even in those more direct analogues.
A lot of the Viking-like Northmen, have a pretty un-Viking lifestyle, with Uthgardt and Reghed barbarians resembling Syberian tribes, and Native Americans.
You probably even remember the Reghed barbarians from books, and both Icewind Dale Video Games. |
Edited by - Baltas on 19 Apr 2015 15:16:13 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2015 : 17:09:38
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| Artblade, I'm in agreement with you that some aspect were directly ported over from our world, God's included. I personally never liked it and complete ignore those areas. If you want some unique, original alternatives, check out the 4th edition campaign Setting book. There they removed Maztica, Unther, and Mulhorand with different and diverse areas and people. |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2015 : 19:37:40
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Comparing Chult to the Congo is WAY off. Though in Amn, people from that region are treated as primitive savages like colonial British types did a couple centuries ago. I suggest you read up a bit more.
As for the real-world analogues, they were mostly not Ed Greenwood's (the Realms creator) desire and his home game doesn't include them. Don't judge the entire Realms by the few bits of it you don't like - there's a LOT more out there. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
768 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2015 : 20:24:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Artblade
Hi people! As the title says, FR is not quite what I thought it was.
I grew up playing Baldur's Gate, Planescape and Icewind Dale. I loved those games, more than any other I've ever played since. I thought they gave me a good idea of what the Realms was, and I loved it and wanted to know more about it. So I read a few novels and enjoyed those too, then lately I begun reading more and more about Realmslore and I'm sad at what I found.
Copypaste vikings and celts?
Aztec jaguar-pelt wearing natives?
Egyptian gods (literally so if I'm not mistaken?)
China, complete with NINJAS, Samurai, and a freaking great wall.
Dinosaurs?! I am fine with great lizards inspired by dinos, but make something different about them and give them new names at least. Warhammer handled that fine with their heavily scaled carnosaurs.
The people who live alongside these dinos could've been taken straight from modern Kongo, which I find very tasteless.
Maybe I'm just incredibly nitpicky. But I feel that these things are just added on and not integrated into the rest of the world in any way.
Yes, you are being nitpicky. And yes, those things were just added on. Read up on the history of the Realms development. Ed had a big map, but TSR decided to fill it with lots of standard fantasy tropes. But frankly, this never bothered me. The whole idea of the Realms is that it used to be closely connected to our "real" world. So why not have lots of similar cultures on Toril? |
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Artblade
Acolyte
3 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2015 : 20:45:53
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I was just disappointed at discovering these other places which to me feel like they just don't belong. The setting loses much of its integrity in my opinion and the whole point of escapism fades when I read about ninjas. Fantasy becomes historical fiction. But don't get me wrong, I like a bit of familiarity. Most of Faerun take inspiration from real world history, but they're not copy paste, and that makes all the difference to me.
I never understood the whole "your version" of the realms before, but now I do. I would certainly play my own version if I decided to DM. However, I don't think I'll be reading more novels. I would cringe everytime a Kara-tur reference shows up.
Fortunately, there are far more bits that I like about the Realms than bits that I don't like.
I think that if I would've gotten the chance to publish a campaign setting and make it a shared world, I would've seen to it that I owned 51% of the name so I could decide what gets in and not.
Thanks for all the replies. |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2015 : 21:01:26
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Well, as it was observed by other scribes, the more direct analogue lands were not in Ed's original vision, or were left vague, like Mulhorand, before Old Empires was published.
Although many of those lands and countries, were made more interesting and unique, and on many fellow scribes work on improving.
Check out Maztica Alive! by Seethyr
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19368
and Forgotten Realms: Alternate Dimensions Fan Mag by dazzlerdal
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19123
Also
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19168
This thread by dazzlerdal, while primarly about the Hordelands, has also some interesting information, you could use to build a Kara-Tur more connected to the rest of the Realms.
The 3.5 sourcebook Unapproachable East, also has elements to build a better Kara-Tur. |
Edited by - Baltas on 19 Apr 2015 23:50:32 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2015 : 00:21:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Artblade
I think that if I would've gotten the chance to publish a campaign setting and make it a shared world, I would've seen to it that I owned 51% of the name so I could decide what gets in and not.
You won't on that criterion.
All shared worlds suffer from the phenomenon you describe. Stuff that you like, I might dislike and vice versa.
Total content control might seem like the best way forward in terms of consistency of "vision" and being "true to a setting", but unless you are as prolific as Ed Greenwood (and most mortals are not) then you run the risk of becoming the chokepoint that prevents more information from reaching the fans. It happened to Gygax with Greyhawk.
The secret is actually strong editorial control and an external overall "traffic cop", but that situation hasn't always been a feature of the Realms. And don't forget, there might actually be someone out there who has equally good or even better ideas about your campaign setting than you.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
768 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2015 : 07:24:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Artblade
I was just disappointed at discovering these other places which to me feel like they just don't belong. The setting loses much of its integrity in my opinion and the whole point of escapism fades when I read about ninjas. Fantasy becomes historical fiction. But don't get me wrong, I like a bit of familiarity. Most of Faerun take inspiration from real world history, but they're not copy paste, and that makes all the difference to me.
I never understood the whole "your version" of the realms before, but now I do. I would certainly play my own version if I decided to DM. However, I don't think I'll be reading more novels. I would cringe everytime a Kara-tur reference shows up.
Fortunately, there are far more bits that I like about the Realms than bits that I don't like.
I think that if I would've gotten the chance to publish a campaign setting and make it a shared world, I would've seen to it that I owned 51% of the name so I could decide what gets in and not.
Thanks for all the replies.
Frankly this issue is a symptom of the times. I'm assuming that you are younger given that you are just now coming around to the Realms. Today you are very fortunate that "nerd/geek" culture is very pervasive and you have thousands of places to go to find gaming material. But 30 years ago, you had literally a handful of options. The Realms was different in that Ed had an actual concept for it. The Realms felt thought out rather than "seat of the pants" like Greyhawk was. The Realms was adapted for DnD. Greyhawk came about because of DnD. There's a huge difference there when you think about it.
So I totally get your feelings coming at the Realms 30 years later. It won't be the same as it was for us old timers and I feel sorry for that fact. All I can say is that the novels are well written for the most part. A good story is a good story, I don't care if one or two groups of people act like Vikings or Egyptians. Who says that those cultures are unique in a multiverse? |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2015 : 19:44:17
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| I actually like the fantasy version of RL attached to the realms |
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Caladan Brood
Senior Scribe
Norway
410 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2015 : 22:00:35
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You come at it from a different angle - through Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale, you've become accustomed to the Realms being, well, Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale - or shall we say the Sword Coast, areas of which feature heavily in the Neverwinter Nights games as well. Now, for most people the Sword Coast is the definition of the Realms (note that the next Realms CRPG is called "Sword Coast Legends" and that many people prefer to play in this area, let's say the area between the great sea and the eastern border of Cormyr, perhaps further down and east into Aglarond and Thay).
So it's still the Realms and you don't have to mind the Mulhorandi pantheon, for example (I don't). Just my two clipped coppers. |
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sylvain
Acolyte
Canada
18 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2015 : 13:36:33
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Honestly Artblade, just stick to the Sword Coast, the Heartlands, the Moonsea, Dragoncoast, Aglarond and Thay... because that is the core of the realms and where the authors write their novels.
Maztica, Mulrohand, Chult etc. they are almost trope 'place-holders' for DMs who want to run those sort of campaigns. You have to remember that the Realms have been modified to an extent to encapsulate all of the fantasy tropes and monsters you could find in the Monster Manual (dinosaurs included). The core of the realms are still unique in their own way.
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Artblade
Acolyte
3 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2015 : 14:37:55
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| Thanks for the replies Sylvain and Caladan, very good points. I think that's how I will see things from now on and still enjoy the Realms as I know it. |
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Magor
Acolyte
15 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2015 : 17:43:42
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Artblade, I'm not surprised as to what extent your reservations concerning coherence and 'the right feel' of the realms have meet with rather overwhelming refusal here. The things you mentioned - dinosaurs, egyptian gods, eastern cultures (horde/kara-tur), the conquistador setting (maztica), the countless other real world paradigms (arabian/al-qadim and so on) that have been somehow/somewhat integrated in the realms lore – were always huge irritations for myself. So to answer your question: No, I don’t belive you are nitpicking, I believe you are in fact right. I always found this to be a weak moves (in any of these cases above) and the way this was conducted never appealed to me nor did I think it was done properly or anyhow convincing in the slightest.
So I did what Caladan and sylvain told you to do: simply ignore it and take your pick of the given material that appeals to you.
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sylvain
Acolyte
Canada
18 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2015 : 18:12:23
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When I run Forgotten Realms campaigns, I take it a step further and stick to regional maps.
There's so much more mystery and wonder in a world where not all borders are defined. In my Realms, those lands are the stuff of legends. I simply refer to them in obscure form such as: "The Shining South" , the "God-Kings of the East" (Mulrohand) , the "Lands beyond the Sword" (Maztica), the Isles of the Elves (Evermeet) the "Exotic Far East" (Kara-tur) and so on. |
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Forgotten Realms, not what I thought it was.
