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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
 Posted - 26 May 2015 : 22:17:19
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Eh. I ran the Undermountian boxed set using 5e core rules and didn't have any issues converting the whole box by the seat of my pants while the game was running. I've done the same thing with Monsters of Faerūn from 3e. There's enough optional bits in the three core books for 5e that I'm able to tweak mechanics to taste every session (not adventure, session) to get the feel I want for that adventuring day without making any major character changes.
Mechanics is a non-issue if you take the time to do learn the ins & outs of 5e as well as some people have learned Pathfinder.
Point is, none of my old books are obsolete. Chris Perkins has said as much via Twitter. I'm getting a ton of use out of all the FR material I own, from the Neverwinter Campaign setting to the Volo's Guides, from the Monstrous Compendiums of the 2e era to the Princes of the Apocalypse campaign.
I still find myself referring to the edition neutral Elminster's Forgotten Realms more than any other book, though. If they don't make a campaign setting, they should at least promote that worthy tome as a good overview. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2015 : 22:42:28
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I support Wizards not releasing a FRCS too soon after the launch of 5E. In each of the prior two editions, the Realms suffered for their haste as the design personnel had not yet gotten a good grasp of the new system's mechanics or the zeitgeist of the era.
In 3E, the FRCS came before the Epic Level Handbook with overlapping design space covered in each. It was repetitive and contributed to the overall impression of the Realms as the playground of a few Epic NPCs. Not that the regular rules options were particularly innovative, they simply tread the line.
Then came the 3.5E update eating up the publishing slot for a true Player's Guide to Faerun and instead we got a conversion pamphlet. Eberron came later as a reactionary design to the Forgotten Realms, it was marketed as everything the Realms got wrong (all the mistakes of over-accumulated lore, canon novels, abundant high-level NPCs, meddlesome gods, black & white morality) and it created these camps within the overall fanbase. The Realms were further shoehorned into a vanilla caricature to help highlight the difference with the pseudo-pulp, false-punk of Eberron (not to purposefully crap on Eberron, it's a decent enough setting for what it is, but could have better embraced its claimed premise).
We know the story with 4E Realms, which just drove that line of marketing further, this time disparaging the design of the old Realms to market the New Realms. This does not work as it doesn't inspire confidence in the core of the setting (3E or 4E Realms, it's the same crappy Realms all the same, says anyone outside of the fan community).
Once again the Realms was first out the gate, with a grandiose plan set in stone for massive changes, which the fans told the developers was not a great idea (kicking and screaming on the forums even). They did notice, but it was likely too late. The best they could do was kill Tyr off in favor of elevating Torm because their dull shenanigans had tainted the concept of Tyr so bad even the developers thought they needed a fix (it coincided with their plans to cull the redundancy of too many gods anyway). The debacle with the Realms taught WotC to leave Eberron alone and try a reboot with Dark Sun, both better received choices it seems.
Around the release of 4E and Pathfinder (including the 3E modules before the PF RPG) there was a certain zeitgeist of common themes concurrently being explored by the various publishers. Many of these core elements were dropped into the Realms at the expense of existing lore (aboloths, Asmodeus ascendency, dragon-people races, dragon-ruled empires, boring gnomes vs gnomes-as-monsters). This is mostly a matter of opinion, but I believe post-4E settings (Golarion, Midgard, etc.) dealt with these concepts far better that 4E Realms, mainly because they were built from the ground up with these concepts and took them to a logical standpoint based on their own lore. The Realms always had to skirt around incorporating them yet not fully embracing them because while they are not technically retcons, they appear close enough from out of nowhere to feel like awkward additions.
Also along the concept of zeitgeist, note while Wayne Reynolds painted the covers to some of the 4E books, he did all the covers to Pathfinder's core books and many of their most important adventure paths, far more than for 4E. He also designed their Iconic characters who have appeared in more places consistently than any comparable group for 3E or 4E. He still does covers for Pathfinder and each new class Iconic. In this regard, Pathfinder co-opted not only the rules and some of the major lore concepts, but also the look of 4E D&D right from under WotC's nose.
Again, Forgotten Realms being first became the prototype for other games and settings. Certainly WotC can out distribute and out market their competitors, but others are putting out the more polished products and growing their fan base in part by diverting Wizard's long standing lock-down on the market.
No, I'd rather they get a 5E FRCS right than early. I am of the strong opinion the Realms should not be the core D&D setting. It plays with the same generic archetypes, but if left to flourish as its own entity it elevates itself beyond a design-by-tropes approach without having to go into narrower fantasy subgenres or gonzo attention grabbers gimmicks like drow-but-with-scorpions.
Then again, if they're just referencing the 3E FRCS, then they might as well update that for 5E with the new mechanics with some new art & layout and call it a day. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2015 : 23:18:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
I am of the strong opinion the Realms should not be the core D&D setting. It plays with the same generic archetypes, but if left to flourish as its own entity it elevates itself beyond a design-by-tropes approach without having to go into narrower fantasy subgenres or gonzo attention grabbers gimmicks like drow-but-with-scorpions.
I personally agree, but WotC seems to be dead set on making the Realms equal D&D. FR now is a rather vague background for D&D (until a CS book comes out), where their stories, games, novels and everything are set. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Baptor
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2015 : 04:12:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
All true.
For me personally, and I think this is true for most of us, I'd certainly prefer having a campaign guide. Even if it's a campaign guide/world that I'd never adopt (or "update" into, with my Realms), I think it's important to have a campaign guide as a central source rather than having the setting spread in a piecemeal fashion through novels, adventures, campaigns and other publications.
But - at least for right now - WotC has gone the latter route. There is quite a lot of information out there on the current setting, the tone and flavor, and what's been diminished from 4E. We have the Baldur's Gate guidebook, novels, and a few adventures during the Sundering. And now we're getting adventures and a campaign that is post-Sundering. So this information is there. It's just not gathered together in a campaign guide. The format has changed, and frankly it's probably not necessary to have a campaign guide: it's basically the 4E Realms with a lot of elements that have been toned down or diminished.
People are playing in the 5E Realms, and have been for a while. Since they're not doing a lot of retcons, but just some toning down and "ending" some effects like plagueland areas and spellscars, the setting is essentially "5E = 4E - a few things". Truthfully, I'm not sure that a new campaign guide is warranted. What would they say in a full campaign guide, other than what they've already told us? It'd basically be a reprint of the 4E guide, with a few sidebar updates and maps that show a few geographical reversions back to what things sort of looked like in 3E. It's probably not enough to publish. Even though the Sundering sounds dramatic, it's only been dramatic at the meta-story level. And they may never even want to define or lay out exactly what the Sundering (or even the Spellplague) really involved.
I'm willing to bet that any future Realms updates we get will be in the form of sidebars and snippets within published adventures. I'd be very surprised if we get a campaign guide any time soon, because as we've seen they've done a number of adventures and even campaigns where a campaign guidebook has not been necessary.
DMs and players have been playing in the 5E Realms for a while now.
Yeah, I hate to say it, but that makes a lot of sense.
It makes even MORE sense when compared with what Mike and Chris have been saying for months.
Here's a non exhaustive list of things they've said:
1. We will update the Realms.
2. The way we update the Realms will be different from the way we used to do this kind of thing.
3. We are already updating the Realms through novels, adventure paths, etc.
4. There is no plan to make a CG at this time.
5. Big campaign books are a thing of the past.
It didn't make much sense to me until I read your post. Now it fits, and it makes sense too, though I don't really like it.
As for those that still think a book is on its way, I urge you to consider what's been said. All of it points to an update for sure and a continued focus on the Realms, but I think it also points away from a CG tome. |
Jesus said, "I am the Ressurection and the Life. Anyone who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and those who live and believe in Me will never die. Do you believe this?" |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2015 : 04:51:26
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That looks about right to me.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2015 : 08:49:48
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and they will lose business and face. and ultimately the FR at it score, will return to Ed Greenwood and then if its possible, we will get that reboot.
but you can kiss the mordainian, teh seldarine( well mostly) good bye. you can kiss drizzt goodbye( not like that will be a problem for some) they will likely move him out of the realms all together.
which would mean we would get new dwarf deities, new elf deities, you get the idea.
might be a good thing, might be a bad thing. there is enough freelancers that might be willing to help with it, several publishing companies like paizo that could do it( they already have monster books) and that one margret wiess started if its stil up and running.
well who knows, and at this point all we can do is sit on our collective arses, twiddle our thumbs and repeat after me: We are borg, resistance is futile, you will escort us to your civilization and you will be made to service us. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2015 : 14:13:00
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I second (3rd? 4th?) what Eltheorn said as well. Sounds like their plan. With them selling reprints of older material, what would be the point (from a gaming perspective) of coming up with a whole new slew of NPCs and plots for 5e? Just grab your 1e/2e/3e/4e books and go to town for that info. If we really think about it - despite all the negativity toward 'the changes' - nothing really changes at all in the Realms, for better or worse. Even when major events happen (RSE's) everything is 'business as usual' the next day. Its kind of unrealistic, but it also maintains the setting in a semi-stasis necessary for a game setting. Zhentil Keep gets blown up? There it is, back as usual in a month. The Tower of blah-blah-blah take off like a rocket? No problem... the cult of whatchamacallit rebuilt it a week later. Neverwinter gets a giant ass-crack in it? No problemo... people just walk around that s*** now. Its almost comical the way the setting DOESN'T change. Honestly, how much has Evereska actually changed in the past century or two? Even with all the crap that happened to it at the beginning of 3e, most of the same folks are still walking around, acting the same, doing the same things. Era-specific info isn't even necessary in most non-human areas.
'Setting fans' may hate that, but thats just how it is. The game doesn't need more info on 'the now' of all the popular regions. 'Broader strokes' are whats called for.
What is DOES NEED is more background material - historical bits that could easily translate into scenario-fodder in any era. I also think there may be several people already working on such things, and I also think that WotC's predilection to 'farm-out' material in 5e may all play into this.
I don't know anything, except that that there is some truly awesome FR material floating around out there that needs an audience, and its the kind of stuff you could plunk down any-when and it will still work for your games. Thats what I am hoping is going on. Its taking longer then I thought, but thats probably because a new approach to the lore has to be handled slowly, so all the possible wrinkles are ironed-out. I think thats what Sean K. Reynolds came on board for - they realized just how hard it was going to be to provide us with that lore and still have it all be fairly edition-neutral.
Just my 2¢.
Oh... and the drama doesn't help our cause, AT ALL. We keep ripping each other apart over every little thing, Paizo (and everyone else with a setting) has already won. Ever hear of 'Divide & Conquer'? We must present a unified front to new fans if we hope for FR to continue to be the world's greatest setting. People get into this hobby to have fun, not to deal with a bunch of grognards pissing & moaning over every little thing. 'Elitism' is going to kill FR, if anything does. And don't blame 4e... that was just a symptom of the elitism we were already showing. Actually, more like a 'vaccine' that went horribly wrong. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2015 : 14:58:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
'Elitism' is going to kill FR, if anything does. And don't blame 4e... that was just a symptom of the elitism we were already showing. Actually, more like a 'vaccine' that went horribly wrong.
Well, I personally blame it on 4e. When approaching to the FR as a newbie, the changes that it and the end 3e era brought to the Realms definitely turned me away. Granted, I wasn't completely new, since I had played some CRPG set in the Realms before (NWN1/2+expansions and BG2), but the point is that the changes that were supposed to bring in ''new blood'' did the exact contrary with me. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2015 : 15:10:29
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There is a new survey up at wizards, the focus is on spells, the latest unearthed arcana article, and Dragon+ but it's another chance to comment on what you would like to see. If enough people are commenting with the same request it's possible that they'll listen, whatever the exact request might be:
Link here |
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Baptor
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2015 : 15:15:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Oh... and the drama doesn't help our cause, AT ALL. We keep ripping each other apart over every little thing, Paizo (and everyone else with a setting) has already won. Ever hear of 'Divide & Conquer'? We must present a unified front to new fans if we hope for FR to continue to be the world's greatest setting. People get into this hobby to have fun, not to deal with a bunch of grognards pissing & moaning over every little thing. 'Elitism' is going to kill FR, if anything does. And don't blame 4e... that was just a symptom of the elitism we were already showing. Actually, more like a 'vaccine' that went horribly wrong.
I agree with you 100%. You should see what people say about us on other forums. People who aren't die hard fans of FR consider this place full of haters. It's one of the things that keeps folks thinking the Realms is only a setting fit for old fogeys who can't step out of 1985. People call it "the Forgettable Realms" and so forth, and part of it is due to the rabid fans. I'll be the first to step up and say I'm part of the problem but I want to change and be part of the solution.
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Well, I personally blame it on 4e. When approaching to the FR as a newbie, the changes that it and the end 3e era brought to the Realms definitely turned me away. Granted, I wasn't completely new, since I had played some CRPG set in the Realms before (NWN1/2+expansions and BG2), but the point is that the changes that were supposed to bring in ''new blood'' did the exact contrary with me.
Eh, I'm with Mark. Back in the 3e days, there was almost as much flame over things like the Shadow Weave, the Time of Troubles, etc. 4e sure didn't help, but as a famous song once said, it didn't start the fire. |
Jesus said, "I am the Ressurection and the Life. Anyone who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and those who live and believe in Me will never die. Do you believe this?" |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2015 : 15:22:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptor
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Well, I personally blame it on 4e. When approaching to the FR as a newbie, the changes that it and the end 3e era brought to the Realms definitely turned me away. Granted, I wasn't completely new, since I had played some CRPG set in the Realms before (NWN1/2+expansions and BG2), but the point is that the changes that were supposed to bring in ''new blood'' did the exact contrary with me.
Eh, I'm with Mark. Back in the 3e days, there was almost as much flame over things like the Shadow Weave, the Time of Troubles, etc. 4e sure didn't help, but as a famous song once said, it didn't start the fire.
I don't know how the situation was before 4e, since I started reading FR sourcebooks towards the end of 2011, but what I wrote is how I personally feel about the matter. But then, I don't really care about the elitism, I would prefer a setting that I enjoy, but which has a crap community, to a setting that I don't enjoy which has an awesome community. The setting really has little to do with how people behave. Anyway I have to say that this place feels pretty friendly, flame threads are very rare here and people tend to be helpful.
quote:
There is a new survey up at wizards, the focus is on spells, the latest unearthed arcana article, and Dragon+ but it's another chance to comment on what you would like to see. If enough people are commenting with the same request it's possible that they'll listen, whatever the exact request might be:
Link here
Yeah, I've done it. It feels a bit like a lost cause, but I'll keep doing it with every survey they put up. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 27 May 2015 15:28:26 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2015 : 16:57:42
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I am/was also part of the problem.
My point was that the 4e team tried to put an end to FR's elitism, but the 'cure' turned out to be worse then the disease.
Not trying to start another edition war thread - I have nothing against 4e personally (taken as a thing unto itself). It just wasn't the right solution to the problem. I don't know what would have been, but I know theirs wasn't. The vitriolic backlash from the 'diehard fanbois' sent any potential new fans scurrying for the hills. And YES, I was CENTRAL to all of that at the time.
Hindsight is an interesting thing. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Snow
Learned Scribe
USA
125 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2015 : 19:26:11
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I'm not sure I believe the statement that "the F.R. *is* 5E D&D" (or vice-versa).
I believe WotC's objective is to have the F.R. be the default core campaign world of 5E. But there are quoted plans to eventually publish some alternate campaign world material as well. I'm guessing Greyhawk, Dark Sun, etc. But at their current snail's pace rate-of-publishing, this could take a very long time. And such a thing might statistically diminish the quantity/quality of significant lore-laced F.R. sourcebooks to boot. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2015 : 19:49:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Snow
I'm not sure I believe the statement that "the F.R. *is* 5E D&D" (or vice-versa).
I believe WotC's objective is to have the F.R. be the default core campaign world of 5E. But there are quoted plans to eventually publish some alternate campaign world material as well. I'm guessing Greyhawk, Dark Sun, etc. But at their current snail's pace rate-of-publishing, this could take a very long time. And such a thing might statistically diminish the quantity/quality of significant lore-laced F.R. sourcebooks to boot.
Idk. I may be wrong, but to be brutally honest, I think that the promised support is just PR. The fact that they are reworking the plotline of classic adventures that would be better fit in DL/GH to be included in the Realms is quite telling. They have also repeatedly said that their goal is ''the brand'', not the TTRPG, not the Realms, but only ''the brand''. They want to have one widely recognized background (the Sword Coast), widely recognized characters and so on to make movies, toys, ''AAA VG titles'' (that's what they said), t-shirts and all that kind of stuff.
Whether this will work or not remains to be seen, though. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 27 May 2015 19:51:26 |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2015 : 22:16:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptor
Here's a non exhaustive list of things they've said:
1. We will update the Realms.
2. The way we update the Realms will be different from the way we used to do this kind of thing.
3. We are already updating the Realms through novels, adventure paths, etc.
4. There is no plan to make a CG at this time.
5. Big campaign books are a thing of the past.
It didn't make much sense to me until I read your post. Now it fits, and it makes sense too, though I don't really like it.
As for those that still think a book is on its way, I urge you to consider what's been said. All of it points to an update for sure and a continued focus on the Realms, but I think it also points away from a CG tome.
Then that would be a mistake. Paizo sold not only the Inner Sea World Guide as a big hardback for the PFRPG proper, they had a softcover gazetteer before that as an initial precursor for their 3E Adventure Path days. They keep the PDF price of the World Guide artificially low (for the amount of pages in the World Guide) to help increase adoption of the setting along with the rules they were designed to accommodate. They don't do this just to be nice to fans, it increases adoption rate and builds their fanbase.
There is great utility in a single tome serving as the common touchstone for an entire edition. By the next opportunity for a 5E FRCS, somewhere in 2016 let's say optimistically, the 4E FRCG would be approaching eight years old, out of print and out of date. True there will be the PDFs, but that doesn't get you visibility in game stores where Wizard's Encounters setup is actually making progress in getting people to play the game. Perhaps dozens of regional gazetteers are a thing of the past (not really, since Paizo and others are still putting them out in some form), but a primary campaign setting book I would think is feasible and even ideal.
New plan, meet the old plan!
As for update the setting through novels and adventures, that puts the onus on the reader to track down each volume to decipher the changes. We're back to square one in terms of having a backlog of lore to sift through in order to gather the pertinent information. The Realms needs a source to give the big picture with some details to get people into the setting, not dozens of snippets to collect before one has a decent idea of the setting.
"The Status Quo"
In regards to the setting self-resetting to a "status quo" despite the changes, it's not as if fans haven't been clamoring for a slow down and realistic approach to RSEs. This has been the sentiment for years. That Wizards decides to chase the high of RSEs while wishing to keep that baseline setup does not make it 'Okay.' It just makes for shoddy products and dangerous policies.
Just learned today that DC Comics reset their reset, they've undone their continuity up to Infinite Crisis and restored most of their alternate Earths as options for stories. The Realms is less venerable, but in no better shape really. I expect an event in the next edition or so to bring us back to 1357 or thereabouts.
Forum Decor
The flip side of that coin regarding this forum being seen as full of haters, most people who would care to say that wouldn't have played in the Realms anyway. The people who claim that never, and I mean never, liked the Realms to begin with. They say they find the changes more palatable, but that was because the Realms were utterly repulsive to them to begin with. To a small vocal faction on the internet, Ed Greenwood (dressed as Elminster) kicked their puppy to death right before their eyes, and RA Salvatore (dressed as Drizzt) helped, somehow. Probably urinated on the twitching corpse. That is the level of insult they feel the work of these writers and their setting have inflicted upon them.
The real fans who like the Realms, including the 4E changes, they're here with us, talking with us, fighting with us. Then there are fans who don't care for these forums, not in a negative way, but these forums hold no weight to their enjoyment of their version of the Realms. I feel confident in saying this because I haven't really found a unique community of 4E Realms fans with any sort of activity. The WotC forums are a ghost town, even more so for the Living Realms section. You go to any other general gaming forum and you'll encounter more of the Realms haters who feel Ed owes them a personal apology and should swear to never put pen to paper nor finger to keyboard ever again. You will meet a similar group waiting in line for their personal apology from Bob Salvatore, or Terry Brooks, or Robert Jordan, or George RR Martin, et cetera ad nauseum. There are those who want to dig up Tolkien and use his corpse as a pinata for his "standardization" of fantasy. There are those who spit on Robert E. Howard for his "dumb barbarian" stories.
The difference is the fans of these writers can defend them. The fans of the Realms could and did in the 3E era with each toxic thread about how annoying Drizzt was or overpowered the Chosen where. That was up until 4E when Wizards sided with the Realms haters and gave their perspective full center stage credence. There is no defending the Realms when the publisher and IP holder is against it.
I don't buy the line about Realms "Elitists" being the root of this. If anything it is the elitists out there who think their ideas or likes are better and superior than any version of the Realms that are the cause of this. However, WotC certainly bought into that thinking.
That's what the Realms Haters really want, a realization of the imagined boogeymen, these masses of ignorant snobby FR fans blissfully loving their derivative generic setting that they can point to, rip into, and stomp on. They salivate at the thought of such confrontation, they seek to prove themselves worthy of whatever other pet cause or setting they believe in. No to say elitist Realms fans don't exist, they exist for any setting (ex: Marvel vs DC, Star Wars vs Star Trek, etc.).
Quick Pop Culture Aside
Why is the "Abramsverse" Star Trek disliked by a portion of old Trek fans? Because the creative team of the new movies are huge Star Wars fans and the new movies take all their prompts and cues from Star Wars, but few from Trek. When nods are given to old Trek, it's done in an obtuse, haphazard, awkward way. Then the director doesn't come back to finish off the trilogy but instead goes to work on his true love, Star Wars. A shuffle of directors and writers later and then the studio is going on in the news about making the franchise more accessible and less Trekky. Understandable why the old fans are a little more than peeved. Then the studio wonders why the movie only made $500 million and isn't a billion dollar franchise.
They neglect two things.
1. Billion dollar franchises take time to build. Star Wars, Marvel, those were built up over decades.
2. They each have some sort of unifying creative vision.
It is no wonder why 4E was primed to be a (relative) disaster. They expected results from a simple one-shot, night-to-day change over and they disrupted the creative vision.
From 1E to 3E, the Realms were one entity, there were disagreements on the good and bad, but it was all one whole. The 4E Realms actively sought to break that lineage.
- Why does Marvel get into multimillion dollar negotiations to get Robert Downey Jr. back as Iron Man for Civil War?
- Why are the main three actors from the Star Wars back for the new sequels?
- Why did new Trek even bring in Old Spock as a driving impetus for the first movie and a cameo in the second?
Continuity of creative vision. These franchises want to be seen as a collective whole and are banking on the most popular elements to help uplift the entire entity to higher and higher heights.
Let's get off our collective arses!
Why?
When one could submit to one of the Pathfinder fanzines or work one's way up through the RPG Superstar contest to actually pen a published adventure. Or pitch to several other award-winning publishers. Or go at it alone and self-publish under one's own IP?
While there is such a thing as love for a setting, there's also the matter of supporting something that can be supported. Until I see Wizards supporting the Realms as a setting and not some core rules shell, I think most people's time is better spent working on something they can call their own or at least send it to a company that supports their fanbase.
I sound like a pragmatic bastard, but I find it extremely dis-incentivizing to support an alternate version of the Realms while there are options out there to support where one can still belong to the mainstream of the fanbase. And you know, supporting companies that have explicit fan and community use codes.
I would like to see a OGL/GSL specifically for 5E instead of people having to skirt around the old OGL to cobble together a "5th Edition" variant. Perhaps even articles on Dragon about the pre-Spellplague Realms without mention of the impending doom, that would be a cool nod.
How about Wizard gets off their collective arses and start doing the things it needs to allow people to support them. |
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Mr Dark
Seeker
50 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2015 : 23:13:47
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well I've never encountered any elitism with FR. I've been gaming for 20 years now, but only dabbled in FR over the years. I didn't seriously start running an FR campaign until 5-6 years ago and as soon as I signed up here I started asking questions and then posting theories and now I'm writing up my own campaigns.
At no point did I encounter anyone being unhelpful or withholding information, nor did I ever feel excluded from a conversation, if I wanted to join in I simply read about the subject and dived into it.
True WoTC haven't included me in their design process, nor have I been consulted by the FR greats when they have been developing their favourite areas, but then again my favourite computer game publishing houses also don't include me in their work, nor do my favourite authors ask me for ideas.
The only elitism I have found has been a few fans that get snotty when you break canon in your own game or get livid when you say canon is not important to you. Other than them I have found the Realms fans to be a good lot of people. |
Canon stops where the table begins. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2015 : 01:12:13
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Well, certain 'fans' - I am talking about those of us who eat, drink, and sleep Realmslore - find that many of the decisions the company makes to be 'unintuitive' (and thats the kindest word I can use there, conidering all thats been said over the past few years).
So here you have The Elite - the Die-hard, Fanbois who really know the Realms better then anyone (even many designers) - and a lot of us are saying things like "thats NOT the Forgotten Realms!", or worse, saying "everything WotC produces in the past few years is utter shite!" (and once again, we have all actually heard much worse). Thats the elitism I am talking about.
So you have some FR newb looking to learn more about FR, and he comes here (or wherever) to learn more from us 'Sages', and what he/she gets is a face full of THAT^. One must assume we know what we are talking about - after all, we ARE the self-proclaimed 'experts'. So why bother with a setting that the fans have said has gone down the toilet? Why not go over to the Paizo's boards instead, where THEIR FANS are begging them to take their money and naming their first-born after them?
See my point? The negativity may not be aimed at other RPG/fantasy fans, but if we aim it at the company - rightfully so or not - what we are doing is driving any potential new fans away. If we are convinced the company isn't making good products, why should someone else invest in them? Its not entirely our fault - it would make things easier if there were a few newer products we can direct new fans to that we liked (Elminster's Forgotten Realms?) But we don't have to make things worse by jumping all over everything they say or do when we don't even know what they are planning... yet.
And YES, I do feel like they are playing this out WAY to long, and they may have already missed their window of opportunity. I only hope thats not the case. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 May 2015 01:13:57 |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2015 : 01:12:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr Dark
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well I've never encountered any elitism with FR. I've been gaming for 20 years now, but only dabbled in FR over the years. I didn't seriously start running an FR campaign until 5-6 years ago and as soon as I signed up here I started asking questions and then posting theories and now I'm writing up my own campaigns.
At no point did I encounter anyone being unhelpful or withholding information, nor did I ever feel excluded from a conversation, if I wanted to join in I simply read about the subject and dived into it.
True WoTC haven't included me in their design process, nor have I been consulted by the FR greats when they have been developing their favourite areas, but then again my favourite computer game publishing houses also don't include me in their work, nor do my favourite authors ask me for ideas.
The only elitism I have found has been a few fans that get snotty when you break canon in your own game or get livid when you say canon is not important to you. Other than them I have found the Realms fans to be a good lot of people.
I have to agree, for the better part. I've sometimes had days when I just don't feel like dealing with the Statler and Waldorf level of grouch that can crop up here, but thread's like Jeremy's Cormyr/Idea Muscle thread or Diffain's Knight Errant of Mystra thread keep me coming back.
I enjoy keeping up with the FR news here, though thanks to Twitter I usually have already heard about it before it gets posted here.  And many of the scribes have been more than helpful refining my own campaign ideas when I ask.
It can be intimidating when I'm posting a new question or thread. I'm always worried my "Search - Fu" has failed and I'll get a "you idiot, that was right here if you'd just searched for it," reply, but nobody has ever done that that I'm aware of, and most of my concern is probably just me over fretting anyway.
Generally, most discussions on new Realms products are fun, at least for the first few pages. After that, they do start to divert and become less fun, but no more so than any Facebook thread doing the same thing. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2015 : 01:17:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So you have some FR newb looking to learn more about FR, and he comes here (or wherever) to learn more from us 'Sages', and what he/she gets is a face full of THAT^. One must assume we know what we are talking about - after all, we ARE the self-proclaimed 'experts'. So why bother with a setting that the fans have said has gone down the toilet? Why not go over to the Paizo's boards instead, where THEIR FANS are begging them to take their money and naming their first-born after them?
See my point? The negativity may not be aimed at other RPG/fantasy fans, but if we aim it at the company - rightfully so or not - what we are doing is driving any potential new fans away. If we are convinced the company isn't making good products, why should someone else invest in them? Its not entirely our fault - it would make things easier if there were a few newer products we can direct new fans to that we liked (Elminster's Forgotten Realms?) But we don't have to make things worse by jumping all over everything they say or do when we don't even know what they are planning... yet.
And YES, I do feel like they are playing this out WAY to long, and they may have already missed their window of opportunity. I only hope thats not the case.
This I do see, and agree. I think we could do better if we put out more threads and discussions like Jeremy's Cormyr thread, more homebrew classes for any and all editions, more... creativity.
I think that would be better for our PR than some of the discussions we have about whether WotC is doing the right thing or not. I do what I can, most of my creativity is being poured into my current campaign, and there's threads already for that. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2015 : 01:58:16
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Not sure if I'd call it elitism, but there have been cases with people being hostile to fans of 4E, to the point where they pretend that they don't even exist. And 5E might turn out the same way to new fans if this pessimism keeps being cultivated.
If a new player happens to come along a DnD forum and reads all the negativity, it wouldn't be surprising if they're driven away from the FR setting.
But of course a large chunk of the responsibilty lays on WotC. They need to put more good content out there if they want fans to be engaged with the setting. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2015 : 02:56:06
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I think that TSR/WotC lost the battle for campaign settings a long time before Paizo came along. I've always seen Paizo's strength in the fact that they have one campaign setting. They have unity of theme and content and everything ultimately ties back in to Golarion. And even if you are only into their slant on the 3.X mechanics, they keep throwing Golarion hooks at you when you access their products to get those mechanics. It's pretty clear that enough hooks have held and they look like they thrive.
WotC are in no man's land when it comes to campaign settings. They moved on from GH due to IP issues and to spite EGG. A splintering of the fanbase ensued. They moved on to grand campaign storytelling with DL which some loved, but many felt was a great place to read about but not too brilliant to play the game. Another splintering of the fanbase. Then they bring in the Realms which is intended to have "mass appeal", which it does for those who haven't given up on TSR/WotC's campaign worlds already. And then the tale goes on with Birthright, Darksun, Eberron, GH reboot etc. etc. More and more splintering of the fanbase to the point where you can't actually produce campaign specific material because the sub-set of campaign setting fans who play your D&D game isn't big enough to generate real sales and revenue on those products. Let's not kid ourselves. The time and effort and resources that would have to be devoted to make a 5E FRCG that was universally acclaimed as "great" is probably not going to be reflected in the return on that investment. I can understand why WotC are biding their time on an FRCG, but ultimately I see their decison as being a simple one.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2015 : 02:59:15
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I would like to see more creativity too.
It's perfectly reasonable for people to not want to engage with the Realms (that is, create custom Realms material from scratch) because WotC is not supporting the setting with the same zeal it once did, but I think the itch to create is something that does not go away; it just finds other outlets.
So for me it's enough to create new material for its own sake--it's just like drawing or painting or crafting or building. You do it for the enjoyment and you don't worry about what else is going on in the world, especially with WotC.
EDIT: and if you do it right, then you can inspire other Realms fans to be creative. Short of sitting at the gaming table to play the game, inspiring others and helping hem with their campaigns is the most anyone can hope to accomplish on a forum space. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 28 May 2015 03:14:46 |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2015 : 03:04:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So you have some FR newb looking to learn more about FR, and he comes here (or wherever) to learn more from us 'Sages', and what he/she gets is a face full of THAT^. One must assume we know what we are talking about - after all, we ARE the self-proclaimed 'experts'. So why bother with a setting that the fans have said has gone down the toilet? Why not go over to the Paizo's boards instead, where THEIR FANS are begging them to take their money and naming their first-born after them?
That's not an issue of elitism or the Elite so much as a portion of the fanbase having a strong opinion related to an identifiable set of changes implemented during a specific initiative. Disagreements with the published material existed before, but it is undeniable the 4E changes raised the divide between a notable portion of fans and the company. There were lurkers who came out of the woodwork telling WotC on their own forums they did not like the direction of the setting based on the last pages of GHotR and certainly by the release of the FRCG.
Indeed why bother?
The Paizo community is (imo) more active and more supportive. Also, don't forget there are fewer Eberron fans there telling people the Realms suck (insert pages of discussion and pile on). That happened regularly right on WotC's own main forums. The Realms has a perception problem and a eager crowd of negative cheerleaders. This predated 4E, and even 3E. It goes beyond the niche community we have here.
Recall it was WotC who justified the changes to clear away the clutter/baggage/lack of new story potential. Instantly they invalidate the opinions and defense of the setting many fans have contributed time and energy into discussing in a positive light over the years. The fans supported the setting and highlighted different ways of looking at things, how the rumblings of naysayers were blowing a few details out of proportion. Even as the Greyhawkers and Eberronites and DIY-Homebrewers and anti-Drow, anti-Chosen crowds hammered away at the FR community, the fans were supporting the setting.
Now? Why help a setting when the publisher didn't believe in their product.
All most people here are saying is "Here's what we want to see," if you want our money. Wizards can take that advice or leave it.
Other companies are spotting the niches unfilled by Wizards and they are getting my money, Pathfinder, 13th Age, DCCRPG, Numemera, Fate, Dungeon World, AGE, S&W, etc.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
See my point? The negativity may not be aimed at other RPG/fantasy fans, but if we aim it at the company - rightfully so or not - what we are doing is driving any potential new fans away. If we are convinced the company isn't making good products, why should someone else invest in them?
Indeed, why should they buy in? Why should any community censor themselves from critique and review of a company's products to protect the marketability of a for-profit company's product line? Note the negative reviews are not limited to this forum, compare the Amazon reviews of the 4E FRCG to other similar products. View that with the realization it is a sample of a much larger consumer base that this niche forum represents.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Its not entirely our fault - it would make things easier if there were a few newer products we can direct new fans to that we liked (Elminster's Forgotten Realms?) But we don't have to make things worse by jumping all over everything they say or do when we don't even know what they are planning... yet.
And YES, I do feel like they are playing this out WAY to long, and they may have already missed their window of opportunity. I only hope thats not the case.
It's mostly not our fault. Have we forgotten the disagreements and controversies involving some of the biggest franchises in fandom:
Marvel: Spiderman 3, X-Men 3, Wolverine 1, Amazing Spiderman 2, Iron Man 3, Daredevil, Elektra, etc.
DC Comics: Green Lantern, Man of Steel, the Nolanization/Snyderization of the DC cinematic universe.
Star Wars: The prequels with Jar Jar Binks and Midichlorians
Their detractors have not managed to prevent them from being multibillion dollar, international, transmedia pop culture phenomena.
What about something in the fantasy genre:
- Game of Thrones: Books vs Show
- Tolkien's Middle-Earth: The Hobbit as a movie trilogy!?
Again, in terms of niche FR is a tiny fish in a large sea filled with fracking leviathans. Those other companies are able to handle themselves well enough (billions well enough) given the massive scrutiny. If FR can't withstand a little criticism, it doesn't even belong in the Z-grade level let alone as an A-grade IP.
Those other franchises do have a pulse on what the fans think. They don't listen to fans for the sake of the fans, they listen to fans because they want to rake in the big bucks.
Marvel: Spiderman in the MCU, relaunch of Daredevil closer to his gritty roots, fixing Captain America's costume from Avengers 1, Deadpool seemingly close to the 4th wall breaking comics.
DC: A interlinked cinematic universe. Seemingly an adaptation of the Dark Knight Returns for BvS: Dawn of Justice, a Suicide Squad movie with fan favorite characters matched to solid (and some award-winning) actors.
Star Wars: Minimizing the prequel stuff, getting the old primaries back in.
Wizards needs to get their game plan together on multiple levels. |
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Snow
Learned Scribe
USA
125 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2015 : 03:08:40
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George makes a terrific point - couldn't of said it better myself.
Paizo was savvy to craft the Golarion Campaign world so that it had near unlimited modularity & expansion capabilities to encompass new-&-thematic nations & geographical locales. To appeal to all different types of Fantasy RPG flavors (high magic, low magic, ethnicity-specific, technology-specific, etc.). Granted, with overbloat and shoddy QC oversight, this can lead to potential disaster. But Paizo is doing okay with that so far. Granted, they'll be adding some new Golarion geographies that are upcoming in the product pipeline. And that may be a tipping point.
I just wish that Toril's various continents could've been handled similarly by TSR & WotC over the years. So much wasted potential. :-( |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2015 : 14:07:38
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And thats why I think D&D and FR can still be salvaged - by using FR as the 'lynchpin' to anchor the rest of the product line.
TSR/WotC's biggest problem financially is their biggest asset fan-wise; they don't have just one world, they have a mutliverse. Its linked to Planescape and Spelljammer (and Ravenloft), but those settings are too 'niche' to be the keystone for a relaunch.
So what we need is a very generic fantasy setting that has ties to 'all other worlds', and has a large influence on the cosmology itself. The Forgotten Realms fits that bill perfectly. Paizo is starting to move beyond Golarion with some of its products (including a trip to Earth!), but its making sure EVERYTHING ties right back to Golarion. That would work for the Realms, but we have to change the way people think about it... and that starts with US.
So from now on, FR is not 'a setting', it is the centerpiece of a much larger setting. Its a springboard that can lead anywhere (even to Golarion!) Thats what Ed intended - a place with ancient connections to many other planes and worlds. Embrace its true nature, and it will rise again.
Tagline:
"Imagine a place that can take you anywhere... where adventure awaits in one's own backyard, or on a hundred other worlds. A land most people only remember in myth, yet is just around the corner from everywhere. Welcome to The Forgotten Realms."
Now slap a fancy TV ad on that and run it just before the holidays, and watch the kids just eat it up. If you really want it to be a whopping success, create a (GOOD) cartoon to go with it and launch that at the same time. Drizzt stories would work for that - a young Drizzt just starting out; an angsty 'teen' trying to break from tradition. Someone 'non-white' who most people fear and hate. Thats got teen craze written all over it - he is practically manufactured for today's adolescent market.
Bottom Line: Stop pointing to all that is bad with the Realms, and start focusing on its gems. People will forgive and forget the 'Jar Jar Binks' in time.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2015 : 14:15:11
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I think that TSR/WotC lost the battle for campaign settings a long time before Paizo came along. I've always seen Paizo's strength in the fact that they have one campaign setting. They have unity of theme and content and everything ultimately ties back in to Golarion. And even if you are only into their slant on the 3.X mechanics, they keep throwing Golarion hooks at you when you access their products to get those mechanics. It's pretty clear that enough hooks have held and they look like they thrive.
WotC are in no man's land when it comes to campaign settings. They moved on from GH due to IP issues and to spite EGG. A splintering of the fanbase ensued. They moved on to grand campaign storytelling with DL which some loved, but many felt was a great place to read about but not too brilliant to play the game. Another splintering of the fanbase. Then they bring in the Realms which is intended to have "mass appeal", which it does for those who haven't given up on TSR/WotC's campaign worlds already. And then the tale goes on with Birthright, Darksun, Eberron, GH reboot etc. etc. More and more splintering of the fanbase to the point where you can't actually produce campaign specific material because the sub-set of campaign setting fans who play your D&D game isn't big enough to generate real sales and revenue on those products. Let's not kid ourselves. The time and effort and resources that would have to be devoted to make a 5E FRCG that was universally acclaimed as "great" is probably not going to be reflected in the return on that investment. I can understand why WotC are biding their time on an FRCG, but ultimately I see their decison as being a simple one.
-- George Krashos
What do you mean by EGG? |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2015 : 14:45:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
[quote]
What do you mean by EGG?
Ernest Gary Gygax, co founder of D&D. His world was Greyhawk. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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''The Realms will be updated''
