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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 24 May 2015 :  09:17:31  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

I've been wondering to myself whether it's possible to do a "generic" FRCS. A book that doesn't focus on a temporal Realms, but on a detailed Realms at a level that is applicable to all eras of play. A description of kingdoms/places that gives you a good understanding of the location with some crunch in terms of 'regional feats', a list of deities that provides info on the religion/rites rather than the deity itself, a new host of 'thumbnail' NPCs like in the 1987 box, a discussion on magic in all its forms - again without any solid links to the 5E rules, a last 10 years timeline with a current year of detailed events, some new spells and magic items with attached realmslore and a solid, embedded in the lore discussion on the the big cataclysms of the gaming Realms - the ToT, the Spellplague, and the Sundering and what happened and why (Ed and Eric Boyd should get this) and I reckon you'd have something the fans might be interested in buying.

-- George Krashos




A generic campaign setting is the ultimate goal, but with 4e's design philosophy a generic setting that bridges the gap between the two is impossible. And with 5e keeping the time jump it but moving back towards old editions in flavour it is similarly difficult to bridge the gap between 3, 4, and 5 editions.
Thay is very different, halruaa is gone, zhentil keep is gone, a ton of organizations are very different in nature and operation.

You can genericise 1e 2e and 3e, the flavour and details of the region stay the same, even the threats are similar.
In 4e and 5e the geography changes, the nations change, the people change, even the nature of magic changes. There is nothing static to make generic.

Which is why im only genericising up to 1375 dr for my setting. Anything afterwards is too radical a change to find common ground with.

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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe

Denmark
197 Posts

Posted - 24 May 2015 :  16:21:28  Show Profile  Visit Gustaveren's Homepage Send Gustaveren a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Why should i buy such a FR setting book since I usually play Golarion and just in case i one day were to run or play in a new 2e / 3e FR campaign does it not sound as if such a book would contain any new lore
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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
3285 Posts

Posted - 24 May 2015 :  23:59:57  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon

btw: the reason why they may not be telling us anything is to hopefully not have another issue with 5e like 4e did before its release.

remember the richard baker must be stopped lines?? yeah alot of us said it before 4e realms showed up.

do we really want to see that happen again??

no, cant say I do


One of my favorites was Chris Perkins MUST be stopped!!!!!

Then they (WOTC) made the whole video podcast with the Richard Baker must be stopped sign in the background.

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 25 May 2015 :  02:36:53  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gustaveren

Why should i buy such a FR setting book since I usually play Golarion and just in case i one day were to run or play in a new 2e / 3e FR campaign does it not sound as if such a book would contain any new lore



Why not wait until the book actually exists before deciding it has nothing of use for you?

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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
1150 Posts

Posted - 25 May 2015 :  07:58:01  Show Profile  Visit hashimashadoo's Homepage Send hashimashadoo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wooly, there is little point trying to persuade people who have already made up their mind without a lick of evidence to support their arguments...

When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.

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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe

Denmark
197 Posts

Posted - 25 May 2015 :  09:20:22  Show Profile  Visit Gustaveren's Homepage Send Gustaveren a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, I stopped playing and running campaigns in the forgotten realms in 2009 and have since then instead used Golarion with the exception that i played through the enhanced version of baldurs gate and is halfway through the enhanced version of baldur's gate 2.
Makes it a bit difficult to see why i should spend money on a new FR campaign book unless it was so good and contained a lot of new lore for the 1373 realms that it would rekindle my interest but it is difficult to do that, since just knowing that there is an upcoming spellplague destroys my interest
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idilippy
Senior Scribe

USA
417 Posts

Posted - 25 May 2015 :  12:04:52  Show Profile Send idilippy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gustaveren

Well, I stopped playing and running campaigns in the forgotten realms in 2009 and have since then instead used Golarion with the exception that i played through the enhanced version of baldurs gate and is halfway through the enhanced version of baldur's gate 2.
Makes it a bit difficult to see why i should spend money on a new FR campaign book unless it was so good and contained a lot of new lore for the 1373 realms that it would rekindle my interest but it is difficult to do that, since just knowing that there is an upcoming spellplague destroys my interest


If you aren't using the forgotten realms as a game setting, and you aren't interested in the world at all anymore, then yeah a campaign setting about the Forgotten Realms probably isn't for you. If you are happy with Golarion and never pull ideas from any other setting to adapt then sure, spending money on something you will never use might be worthless to you.

That said, if you are at all interested in the Forgotten Realms still, if you want adventure ideas, and if you might possibly add non-Golarion ideas to your campaign then a well done campaign setting could be very useful to you. Also, there is always the off chance that a new campaign guide would be so awesome that you decide to use the setting entirely, though even if not it might still be a worthwhile purchase.

Pretty much every setting I've ever seen has had at least a few good ideas, and the best setting books are full of them, just waiting to be adapted or turned into adventure or campaign ideas. I hope we at least get the chance to find out, that some sort of campaign guide makes its way onto the publishing schedule. Until it does and we can look over the new setting we have such a minuscule picture of the world that it's impossible to know what value the world will have as a font of ideas or as a full on setting to use.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 25 May 2015 :  14:09:04  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gustaveren

Well, I stopped playing and running campaigns in the forgotten realms in 2009 and have since then instead used Golarion with the exception that i played through the enhanced version of baldurs gate and is halfway through the enhanced version of baldur's gate 2.
Makes it a bit difficult to see why i should spend money on a new FR campaign book unless it was so good and contained a lot of new lore for the 1373 realms that it would rekindle my interest but it is difficult to do that, since just knowing that there is an upcoming spellplague destroys my interest



So you're not even willing to give a revamped Realms a chance, knowing that the designers realized they'd made a mistake and are trying to correct it?

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TBeholder
Great Reader

2376 Posts

Posted - 25 May 2015 :  15:36:44  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon

quote:
Originally posted by Baptor

Sorry for the naivete, but I searched and searched to find out what the "Richard Baker must be stopped!" movement was all about. Was he blamed for the Spellplague or something?

that and everything else that went wrong with the $e realms.
thing is though, the comment was made mostly because he was the one who brought it to us, not the one who made the decisions.

Yup. Remember, my puppets - never look higher than a scapegoat behind the counter!
Seriously, though, these credits are not always can be trusted for face value.
Because we find out e.g. Bruce R. Cordell credited for 3e Psionics SRD / Psionics Handbook (yup) and then 3.5e Psionics Revised SRD, and it turns out he fixing bugs of the former in 3rd-party (Malhavoc Press) Mindscapes and If Thoughts Could Kill.

And then Chris Perkins apparently co-wrote Book of Exalted Deeds. So here's a thought - maybe rather than assuming that he wrote it while experiencing sudden intermittent bouts of dotage, it's simpler to hypothesise he's in credits simply because BoED "borrowed" tons of content from his Warriors of Heaven, while puerile stuff (and perhaps "Kabbalah for Kidz" stuff) was added by other "co-authors" later?
Occam's Razor, you know.

With Baker it's not so simple, but he's credited as the designer of PO:C&T and PO:S&M, but not PO:S&P - which does, let's say, coincide with a trend in quality - and there was The Will and the Way before that. We may conclude that in developing crunchy parts he's great, and in naming stuff... not so much, though still better than Leonard of Quirm.

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert


I don't know about the 4E Realms, but I find much fault with some of the decisions he made for the 3E Realms.

Details, details!

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

with 5e keeping the time jump it but moving back towards old editions in flavour it is similarly difficult to bridge the gap between 3, 4, and 5 editions.
Thay is very different, halruaa is gone, zhentil keep is gone, a ton of organizations are very different in nature and operation.
You can genericise 1e 2e and 3e, the flavour and details of the region stay the same, even the threats are similar.
In 4e and 5e the geography changes, the nations change, the people change, even the nature of magic changes. There is nothing static to make generic.

Exactly.
Once a hedgehog was sold as a "duck". Subsequent half-assed attempts to back off while still pretending it was just a scrawny duck "not fit in our line of nice plump ducks!" are not only ridiculous, but decisively drag the case from the hedge between "incompetence" and "fraud", and promise us the appearance of stitched "hedgeducks" in process.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

So you're not even willing to give a revamped Realms a chance, knowing that the designers realized they'd made a mistake and are trying to correct it?

It's still better than giving "perpetuum mobile" a chance, but...
Cooks made a New And Improved! soup by adding a boot and a box of plastic forks. Some liked the taste, but most took one sniff and looked for somewhere else to eat.
Now after some shuffle in the local management, the restaurant announces that there will be soup v.5 on a new recipe... adding that the recipe will be "corrected", taking into account presence of some foreign objects in the previous version.
My common sense, for one, says that the contents must be dumped, utensils washed and soup made according to the recipes that did not involve strange inedible objects, rather than trying return old taste by compensating for their presence.
Would you be eager to taste this?

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe

Denmark
197 Posts

Posted - 25 May 2015 :  15:37:31  Show Profile  Visit Gustaveren's Homepage Send Gustaveren a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, I have practical all 1e,2e, 3e and 3.5e FR products but I am now actually having more Golarion products compared to FR products if I does not include the novels in the count. Paizo also keep producing new Golarion products at a release schedule better than TSR's when they were releasing at their most rapid speed. That is, I want a high lore high complexity setting with an ambitious release schedule.
Wizards are not giving that since they are still having the timejump and the spellplague and their release schedule is ridiculous low.
It is kind of obvious, that the more Golarion products i have on my shelves the more difficult will it become to convince me to move back to FR

Edited by - Gustaveren on 25 May 2015 15:41:23
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 25 May 2015 :  16:29:27  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder


quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert


I don't know about the 4E Realms, but I find much fault with some of the decisions he made for the 3E Realms.

Details, details!


We know from some of the things he's said that he made decisions that simply ignored prior canon -- he arbitrarily changed the alignment of an NPC from good to evil, just to have an evil NPC, for example, and he didn't like the Harper Schism, so he ignored it.

The fact that he's publicly owned these decisions makes me think he was a major part of the larger trend we saw in 3E of simply not worrying about prior canon, if it was inconvenient. And since continuity has always been a strong feature in the setting, ignoring it weakens the setting.

Granted, this is all personal conjecture -- extrapolation based on prior comments. It's just that the prior comments and what we saw lean very strongly in one direction, in my opinion.

quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder


quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

So you're not even willing to give a revamped Realms a chance, knowing that the designers realized they'd made a mistake and are trying to correct it?

It's still better than giving "perpetuum mobile" a chance, but...
Cooks made a New And Improved! soup by adding a boot and a box of plastic forks. Some liked the taste, but most took one sniff and looked for somewhere else to eat.
Now after some shuffle in the local management, the restaurant announces that there will be soup v.5 on a new recipe... adding that the recipe will be "corrected", taking into account presence of some foreign objects in the previous version.
My common sense, for one, says that the contents must be dumped, utensils washed and soup made according to the recipes that did not involve strange inedible objects, rather than trying return old taste by compensating for their presence.
Would you be eager to taste this?



Well, since they are undoing a lot of the effects of the Spellplague and have publicly stated they want to get back to what the Realms was, then it means that they are indeed removing the boot and plastic utensils from the soup.

So yes, that's enough for me to be willing to take a taste.

I once took a bite of scrambled eggs and pig brains. I knew I wasn't going to like it, but I had to try it, first... There are very few things you can say you don't like without experiencing them, first. If you don't try something, you're not making an informed decision.

My son is four. He has, on more than one occasion, declared he doesn't like something that I know for a fact he has never had. I expect better than that from mature adults.

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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
1150 Posts

Posted - 25 May 2015 :  16:38:28  Show Profile  Visit hashimashadoo's Homepage Send hashimashadoo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As has been said over, and over, and over again, WotC's release schedule can't compete with Paizo's. Wizards don't have the same level of monetary investment, their staff is smaller in comparison and they aren't being supported by their parent company to make D&D products.

Despite this, they release an average of three adventure modules a month, a full campaign per season and have several other projects on the go/in development like Dragon+ and this thing they're doing with the Adventure Time guy.

Wizards don't deserve all of the crap they're given and they certainly don't need people judging their work before it's even released.

When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.

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Eltheron
Senior Scribe

740 Posts

Posted - 25 May 2015 :  17:02:28  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Well, since they are undoing a lot of the effects of the Spellplague and have publicly stated they want to get back to what the Realms was, then it means that they are indeed removing the boot and plastic utensils from the soup.

So yes, that's enough for me to be willing to take a taste.

So if you go to a restaurant and notice a fly and a roach in your soup, ask the waiter to fix it, and he fishes out the bugs and says "here, enjoy!" are you going to eat it?

So they've fished out a few bugs, right in front of you, and you're going to just agree that everything is fine? That it won't have residual bug flavor that completely destroys the broth?

This is the main problem with the "going forward" and fishing out a few of the disliked 4E elements from the Realms. History is retained. More than that, the changes to the cosmology, addition of a twinned planet and the weird gods' drama is cemented firmly into the setting. Sure, they've removed a few floatiy earthmodes and fizzled out some of the Spellplague, but the flavor of the Realms is forever changed if they retain all of that junk in official history.

Comparing the post-Spellplague 5E Realms to something you've never tried before is absolutely, entirely the wrong example. The right example here is the bugs-in-soup example where the waiter has fished out a few flies and cockroaches - right in front of you, and probably not all of them - and says, "here, all better now, enjoy!"

I -know- from 4E what those bugs tasted like. Removing a few of them as design elements while retaining that entire screwed-up history leaves a host of historical things a DM has to deal with. The flavor is changed, because they didn't throw out the bad soup and start afresh with a 1E, 2E, or late 3E recipe.

It's the broth, the gravy, that gives a soup all of its background flavors. Throw a burning coal into your chicken soup, fish it out, then try to tell me it's back to normal.

Similarly, it's the history and cosmology of a setting that provide the grounding for that setting. It is absolutely logical and understandable if many people don't want to eat a soup that has been contaminated by flies and cockroaches. It is absolutely logical and understandable if many people don't want to retain the history and cosmology alterations of the 4E Realms.

"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe

740 Posts

Posted - 25 May 2015 :  17:10:04  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

My son is four. He has, on more than one occasion, declared he doesn't like something that I know for a fact he has never had. I expect better than that from mature adults.


Well, to be honest, I expect better from moderators than passive aggressive attacks on people who have rational, completely legitimate reasons for not wanting to retain a history and cosmology that utterly changes the tone and feel of a setting.

Seriously, you've just compared everyone who has expressed a dislike for a game setting's dramatically altered history/cosmology to four year old children. This is beneath you as a person, and certainly beneath what should be expected from a moderator.



"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe

Denmark
197 Posts

Posted - 25 May 2015 :  19:15:12  Show Profile  Visit Gustaveren's Homepage Send Gustaveren a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, i could forgive a lot, if they made sure the atmosphere was the same positive one as in the original realms, the geography wide but all of it combined with lots of lore, lots of interesting complexity and lots of high quality products with a large amount of information per book. Basically, we are not there and i do not see any evidence they are planning to go there. It is not just a campaign book, it would require volo guides to all major areas, it would require detailed descriptions of the entire history of the time gap from 3e to 5e with defnied lines of kings and nobles, defined border changes, defined changes in architechture, description of technological advancements etc etc.

Golarion seems much better at providing that kind of setting compared to FR

It does not count, that wizards are making some adventures since i have no need for them. I am after all playing pathfinder. I have brought a number of paizo's adventure packs (12,5 complete adventure packs at the moment since the giantslater AP is not yet completely released.) since i want the golarion lore. It is my impression that wizard adventures are low on lore and they use the wrong rule system. That is, does not count.

I then look at their release schedule for campaign books and it is bad compared to paizo. I am after all usually able to buy at least 2 interesting paizo product per month

Edited by - Gustaveren on 25 May 2015 19:20:26
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2015 :  03:46:03  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

I've been wondering to myself whether it's possible to do a "generic" FRCS. A book that doesn't focus on a temporal Realms, but on a detailed Realms at a level that is applicable to all eras of play. A description of kingdoms/places that gives you a good understanding of the location with some crunch in terms of 'regional feats', a list of deities that provides info on the religion/rites rather than the deity itself, a new host of 'thumbnail' NPCs like in the 1987 box, a discussion on magic in all its forms - again without any solid links to the 5E rules, a last 10 years timeline with a current year of detailed events, some new spells and magic items with attached realmslore and a solid, embedded in the lore discussion on the the big cataclysms of the gaming Realms - the ToT, the Spellplague, and the Sundering and what happened and why (Ed and Eric Boyd should get this) and I reckon you'd have something the fans might be interested in buying.

-- George Krashos



Along these lines, how many people here would buy conversion rules for some of the FR crunch to fit pathfinder? Especially if they allowed said rules to say be incorporated into pathfinder (for a kickback everytime someone bought the add-on of course). For instance, redefine all the godly domains (i.e. tweak what they already had done for PGtF in 3.5 to fit pathfinder).

Personally, my view of pathfinder isn't that the designers over there are that much better. They simply improved on the existing stuff, then instituted some new classes that suffer from some needs to be revamped.

Now, do I see Hasbro being willing to do this? No. But, I really think the level of effort versus payback in return wouldn't be that bad. It might look like a failing from some, but others may see it for what it is... making their setting game system neutral.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2015 :  04:56:04  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Well, since they are undoing a lot of the effects of the Spellplague and have publicly stated they want to get back to what the Realms was, then it means that they are indeed removing the boot and plastic utensils from the soup.

So yes, that's enough for me to be willing to take a taste.

So if you go to a restaurant and notice a fly and a roach in your soup, ask the waiter to fix it, and he fishes out the bugs and says "here, enjoy!" are you going to eat it?

So they've fished out a few bugs, right in front of you, and you're going to just agree that everything is fine? That it won't have residual bug flavor that completely destroys the broth?

This is the main problem with the "going forward" and fishing out a few of the disliked 4E elements from the Realms. History is retained. More than that, the changes to the cosmology, addition of a twinned planet and the weird gods' drama is cemented firmly into the setting. Sure, they've removed a few floatiy earthmodes and fizzled out some of the Spellplague, but the flavor of the Realms is forever changed if they retain all of that junk in official history.

Comparing the post-Spellplague 5E Realms to something you've never tried before is absolutely, entirely the wrong example. The right example here is the bugs-in-soup example where the waiter has fished out a few flies and cockroaches - right in front of you, and probably not all of them - and says, "here, all better now, enjoy!"

I -know- from 4E what those bugs tasted like. Removing a few of them as design elements while retaining that entire screwed-up history leaves a host of historical things a DM has to deal with. The flavor is changed, because they didn't throw out the bad soup and start afresh with a 1E, 2E, or late 3E recipe.

It's the broth, the gravy, that gives a soup all of its background flavors. Throw a burning coal into your chicken soup, fish it out, then try to tell me it's back to normal.

Similarly, it's the history and cosmology of a setting that provide the grounding for that setting. It is absolutely logical and understandable if many people don't want to eat a soup that has been contaminated by flies and cockroaches. It is absolutely logical and understandable if many people don't want to retain the history and cosmology alterations of the 4E Realms.




They're not just removing the fly and the roach. They're going back and getting a fresh bowl with non-contaminated soup. Just because one bowl had something in it doesn't mean all the bowls do.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2015 :  05:15:39  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

My son is four. He has, on more than one occasion, declared he doesn't like something that I know for a fact he has never had. I expect better than that from mature adults.


Well, to be honest, I expect better from moderators than passive aggressive attacks on people who have rational, completely legitimate reasons for not wanting to retain a history and cosmology that utterly changes the tone and feel of a setting.

Seriously, you've just compared everyone who has expressed a dislike for a game setting's dramatically altered history/cosmology to four year old children. This is beneath you as a person, and certainly beneath what should be expected from a moderator.






I'd agree that comparing simple dislike of something to being 4 is beneath me as a person and as a moderator. Perhaps you can go back and reread my post, and see that that is not what I did.

We don't have a 5th Edition FR campaign book out. It literally does not exist, as a product, at this time. That means it is impossible to dislike it -- it has not been experienced in any way.

What I have issue with is the declaration that this product cannot possibly meet someone's needs. How can someone say that they dislike something they have literally zero information about?

That's the comparison I'm making -- saying this book that hasn't even been announced isn't going to work for someone is the same thing as my son saying he doesn't like something he hasn't tried.

In both cases, the determination to not like something is made without any knowledge of what is being disliked.

I have always campaigned for people to make informed decisions. There are FR novels that I have wanted to throw across the room in disgust -- yet I refuse to tell someone "don't read this, it sucks!" In fact, I have readily acknowledged being in the minority on at least one series of books that I disliked. I go out of my way to mention that.

Similarly, while there are few who could compare to my dislike of the 4E Realms, I've never told people not to pick up that material. I've listed specific aspects of it that I disliked, I've argued against whether or not there was reason for change -- but I've still told people to read thru the material themselves and make their own informed decision. And I did that after reading the source material, myself.

That's all I'm doing here, yet again. I'm saying to at least look at it before dismissing it... I'm asking people to at least take a bite before pushing the plate away.

Like the scrambled eggs and pig brains I mentioned -- I knew I was going to dislike them, but until I took a bite, I had not experienced them and was not making an informed decision. Once I took that bite, I had all of the information I needed -- now my opinion was based on facts. It was not based on prejudice, it was not based on arbitrary conjecture, and it was not based on misconceptions.

Is it really so bad to want someone to be informed about something before making an opinion?

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Eltheron
Senior Scribe

740 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2015 :  06:00:05  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

They're not just removing the fly and the roach.

That is, in fact, exactly what they are doing - they have said as much themselves that they're retaining the entirety of the 4E history and undoing a few of the more negatively perceived changes.

quote:
They're going back and getting a fresh bowl with non-contaminated soup. Just because one bowl had something in it doesn't mean all the bowls do.


That's absolutely what they are NOT doing. They're keeping all of the historical events from 4E. The cosmology may reorient a little, the spellplague may be fizzling out, spellscars and earthmotes are ended, but they absolutely 100% are retained as part and parcel of the history.

There is only one history, and they're not retconning or reversing any of the history. They are diminishing some of the specific stand-out things like spellscars and spellplague, but all of that crazy metastory, the prior existence of the spellplague, and all of the things that happened - they DID happen.

This is absolutely NOT starting over with a "fresh bowl" of soup circa 3E. Honestly, I do not understand how you are so blind to this, given that their statements on retaining history were extremely clear. What you will have, whenever the 5E Realms Guide (or whatever form it takes) will in fact be a continuing history and not a retconned one.

That means you will be enjoying a soup that has had a few flies and bugs pulled out - but all that juicy bug and boot flavor is coursing through it as retained history.

It's truly not that hard to understand, based on what they've said.

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I'd agree that comparing simple dislike of something to being 4 is beneath me as a person and as a moderator. Perhaps you can go back and reread my post, and see that that is not what I did.

It's exactly what you did, because you are glossing over the facts we do have.

quote:
We don't have a 5th Edition FR campaign book out. It literally does not exist, as a product, at this time. That means it is impossible to dislike it -- it has not been experienced in any way.

People are experiencing the 5E Realms right now. It may not be out as a published guide, but they've told us the underlying framework and quite a few details. It's not as detailed as a guide might be, but that doesn't mean that you, I and everyone else isn't experiencing the 5E Realms right now.

To try and tell yourself otherwise, that "it's not out" or that "we know nothing" is complete bunk.

First and foremost, we were specifically told that the post-Spellplague Realms is a continuation of 4E. That's a massive piece of information, and it's more than enough to play in the world right now.

We also have the Spellplague-ending novel series. Again, it might not be a campaign guidebook, but it shows a number of key changed elements (the ending of the spellplague, the return of many gods, the pulling apart of the twinned planets, the increasing "distance" of the gods, there are a lot of details to farm there).

We also have several adventures (terribly lacklustre, certainly, but they exist). These are, whether you want to believe it or not, the updates they've provided in a post-Spellplague Realms setting.

The truth is, you have quite a LOT of information about what this post-Spellplague 5E Realms has become. No, it's not as detailed as a campaign guide. But since they've said a campaign guide is not in the near future (and may not be for a very long time), we point to what we have.

Parading around with blinders on and saying that we have nothing on the 5E Realms is honestly ridiculous. If and when a new campaign guide comes out, they may provide even more updates. But that is always the case with the Realms. It's always going to be updated, as long as they continue the IP's history. We have quite a lot of information and updates right now.

You have the 5E Realms. Other people have it, and they're playing in it. WotC has deemed to release the 5E Realms in this new, different and rather piecemeal form. It's just not the form we've come to expect from other editions. But trying to claim that we "haven't seen it" and have "no idea what it will be like, so hey, wait and see" is just plain weird and more importantly, it's just not even true.

And it's always been perfectly reasonable and valid for people to either like or dislike the Realms based on the information WotC has released - and for 5E, it is in fact more than enough material for anyone to make an informed decision about it now.

Disagree, fine. But compare people who have dissenting opinions to four-year-olds? It's deeply against the Candlekeep Code of Conduct.




"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2015 :  11:02:54  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's amazing, to me, how passionately you argue against something I did not say.

We do not have a 5E Forgotten Realms campaign setting book. This is a fact that I should hope even you can acknowledge.

What we have is a few details -- very, very few. Until we have that campaign book, we don't know how much they are going to roll back what they did before. Past events are immaterial if their effects are entirely removed.

That's why we need to see what they give us before we judge it.

quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron

Disagree, fine. But compare people who have dissenting opinions to four-year-olds? It's deeply against the Candlekeep Code of Conduct.


Do me a favor, Elth. Respond to things I have done and have written -- not to your own interpretation of what I have done and written. It demeans you to keep playing that game.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 26 May 2015 11:03:49
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe

740 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2015 :  15:51:01  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

It's amazing, to me, how passionately you argue against something I did not say.

You typed it, it's still there. You said it, despite how much you're denying it.

quote:
We do not have a 5E Forgotten Realms campaign setting book. This is a fact that I should hope even you can acknowledge.

I did acknowledge this. Everyone has acknowledged this and is aware of this. That said, Wotc has provided quite a lot of information about the post-spellplague Realms. Certainly enough to play in the current era, as they have fully developed modules, encounters and even a full campaign.

You might not like the information, you might not like the modules and new campaign material, but it's most assuredly there and it's more than enough to make a judgment about it.

quote:
What we have is a few details -- very, very few. Until we have that campaign book, we don't know how much they are going to roll back what they did before. Past events are immaterial if their effects are entirely removed.

We have a lot more than just a few details. Perhaps you haven't seen everything that's been put out there, but that's no excuse to claim that we have nothing. Many people are playing in the 5E Realms right now. It's happening.

It might not be enough for you, but hey - that's an OPINION. It's also an opinion to say that "past events are immaterial if their effects are removed." In fact, just saying that tells me that you don't consider history and the overall meta-setting's flavor when you regard the Realms. And that's fine, it's perfectly fine for you or others to treat the Realms that way. But it's opinion and preference on your part, not fact.

For many people, past events (history) and ongoing meta-story are essential considerations when reviewing and playing in any setting. There was a great deal of new meta-story (now history) created in 4E - and merely minimizing the "effects" doesn't retcon the setting back to what it was in 3E. Nothing has been retconned away, and they've specifically stated that there will be no retcons. Furthermore, they've provided some details and additional meta-story (both in the Sundering novel series and in later publications) that underscore and fully cement that new tone and flavor into the Realms going forward.

Saying that there's nothing to judge ignores everything they've said and published since 4E. You are welcome to say there's nothing to judge, but it is demonstrably not true.

quote:
Do me a favor, Elth. Respond to things I have done and have written -- not to your own interpretation of what I have done and written. It demeans you to keep playing that game.


Please review the Candlekeep Code of Conduct.

"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer
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Baptor
Seeker

USA
93 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2015 :  16:14:37  Show Profile  Visit Baptor's Homepage Send Baptor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What's funny to me is that we've got some folks here who change their story depending on who is here and what argument they are making.

For my two copper,

1. It's true we don't have the 5e Realms book yet. It may end up being a really well put together book and present an awesome setting to play in. No one can judge that book yet on its own merits.

2. However, it IS possible to judge WotC's decision to continue with the Spellplague storyline. We've been told by the designers that this book or whatever it is (Perkins said there might never be an actual book) will not revert back to a pre-Spellplague storyline. They are sticking by the Spellplague and all the lore it created. They will be restoring the look and feel of the Realms to something from the past version, but all the crazy nonsense of that shift will still have happened. This is angering those who really put a lot of stock by the Realms story and continuity. That decision, which we've been told has already been made, can be judged and is being judged.

Personally, I can live with the Spellplague stuff as long as Faerun isn't riddled with giant sinkholes and Westgate is actually on the sea again. What ticks me off is they are operating under the assumption 5e Realms has "launched" already but there is no actual Setting guide. Those of us running 5e are just sort of "assuming" what it will look like even though we have very little idea and an answer is still "a long way off."

Jesus said, "I am the Ressurection and the Life. Anyone who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and those who live and believe in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2015 :  16:44:41  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Elth, the only violation of the Code of Conduct here is your continued attacks against me. Since I did not say what you claim I said, and yet you keep insisting I did, then you are therefore attacking me.

When you want to respond to the things that I actually said, I'll be happy to discuss them with you. Until then, kindly leave me alone.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe

740 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2015 :  17:03:26  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baptor

What's funny to me is that we've got some folks here who change their story depending on who is here and what argument they are making.

Welcome to Candlekeep!

quote:
For my two copper,

1. It's true we don't have the 5e Realms book yet. It may end up being a really well put together book and present an awesome setting to play in. No one can judge that book yet on its own merits.

2. However, it IS possible to judge WotC's decision to continue with the Spellplague storyline. We've been told by the designers that this book or whatever it is (Perkins said there might never be an actual book) will not revert back to a pre-Spellplague storyline. They are sticking by the Spellplague and all the lore it created. They will be restoring the look and feel of the Realms to something from the past version, but all the crazy nonsense of that shift will still have happened. This is angering those who really put a lot of stock by the Realms story and continuity. That decision, which we've been told has already been made, can be judged and is being judged.

Personally, I can live with the Spellplague stuff as long as Faerun isn't riddled with giant sinkholes and Westgate is actually on the sea again. What ticks me off is they are operating under the assumption 5e Realms has "launched" already but there is no actual Setting guide. Those of us running 5e are just sort of "assuming" what it will look like even though we have very little idea and an answer is still "a long way off."

All true.

For me personally, and I think this is true for most of us, I'd certainly prefer having a campaign guide. Even if it's a campaign guide/world that I'd never adopt (or "update" into, with my Realms), I think it's important to have a campaign guide as a central source rather than having the setting spread in a piecemeal fashion through novels, adventures, campaigns and other publications.

But - at least for right now - WotC has gone the latter route. There is quite a lot of information out there on the current setting, the tone and flavor, and what's been diminished from 4E. We have the Baldur's Gate guidebook, novels, and a few adventures during the Sundering. And now we're getting adventures and a campaign that is post-Sundering. So this information is there. It's just not gathered together in a campaign guide. The format has changed, and frankly it's probably not necessary to have a campaign guide: it's basically the 4E Realms with a lot of elements that have been toned down or diminished.

People are playing in the 5E Realms, and have been for a while. Since they're not doing a lot of retcons, but just some toning down and "ending" some effects like plagueland areas and spellscars, the setting is essentially "5E = 4E - a few things". Truthfully, I'm not sure that a new campaign guide is warranted. What would they say in a full campaign guide, other than what they've already told us? It'd basically be a reprint of the 4E guide, with a few sidebar updates and maps that show a few geographical reversions back to what things sort of looked like in 3E. It's probably not enough to publish. Even though the Sundering sounds dramatic, it's only been dramatic at the meta-story level. And they may never even want to define or lay out exactly what the Sundering (or even the Spellplague) really involved.

I'm willing to bet that any future Realms updates we get will be in the form of sidebars and snippets within published adventures. I'd be very surprised if we get a campaign guide any time soon, because as we've seen they've done a number of adventures and even campaigns where a campaign guidebook has not been necessary.

DMs and players have been playing in the 5E Realms for a while now.

"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
1150 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2015 :  17:24:16  Show Profile  Visit hashimashadoo's Homepage Send hashimashadoo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's scrolls like these that mean I don't scribe here as much as I used to. They reflect badly on us as a community.

When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.

Head admin of the FR wiki:

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe

Brazil
466 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2015 :  17:58:39  Show Profile Send Mapolq a Private Message  Reply with Quote
People have strong opinions, sometimes it will vent as anger, ill-thought-out remarks and bashing your fellow poster. I did it myself in a few instances, though I'm not proud of it. That said, it's not nearly as bad here as in a lot of other places on the internet.

Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.

Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955

My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447
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ZeshinX
Learned Scribe

Canada
210 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2015 :  19:17:06  Show Profile  Visit ZeshinX's Homepage Send ZeshinX a Private Message  Reply with Quote
For me, it's simply reached a point with the Realms/WotC that I'm pretty much apathetic as to what they eventually plan to do. I keep circling around the reality that, for me, the Realms died with 4e (at least the Realms that I was interested in). I was hopeful that 5e would spark a renewal of the setting in some fashion, and it started to look like it would....and it still might, but I'm just at the point where I have to accept the fact I just don't care what they do now.

WotC seems pretty determined to spread themselves so thinly with the Realms (and D&D as a whole) that we may get a lot of stuff (eventually), but it'll be scattered across so many different platforms and media that it may not be worth the effort to gather what you would actually want to use (and, likely, too costly).

"...because despite the best advice of those who know what they are talking about, other people insist on doing the most massively stupid things."
-Galen, technomage
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2015 :  20:46:35  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It is my opinion that their rehiring of SKR is a step in the right direction, and I do think we'll get a 5E campaign book at some point.

It is also my opinion that if WotC opts not to produce such a book, that it will be a huge mistake on their part. WotC has certainly made mistakes in the past; I'm hoping they've learned their lesson.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2015 :  20:54:59  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

It is also my opinion that if WotC opts not to produce such a book, that it will be a huge mistake on their part. WotC has certainly made mistakes in the past; I'm hoping they've learned their lesson.



Yeah. FR basically is D&D at this point, considering the direction WotC has taken. It is just bad marketing -IMO- to direct new people who would like to read about the world as a whole (and not just a few pages (if we even get that) in some AP) to a pdf that is more than 10 years old (since they list the 3eFRCS as the primary reference for those who may want to learn more about the FR).

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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Snow
Learned Scribe

USA
125 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2015 :  21:42:10  Show Profile Send Snow a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I belong to two Forgotten Realms gaming groups - both of which have been playing RPGs in the F.R. for 15 and 19 years respectively. They are both healthy, diverse, consistent and reliable gaming groups (it helps being in the NY/NJ/PA metropolitan area).

Both groups have decided in recent years to fully convert to Pathfinder as their RPG engine of preference ... all the while continuing to modify-&-port all new 5E Forgotten Realms lore material into our fairly-close-to-canon F.R. Campaign World. We also moved all the 4E lore into our Campaign World as well.

The reason we went with Pathfinder as our preferred RPG engine is due to its friendly backporting of all 3.0/3.5 material. In addition, we love being able to use PF's absolutely immense collection of proprietary game-mechanics and crunch. 3.0 + 3.5 + PF = An absolutely astounding array of easily-tweakable game mechanics to help make our customized crunch, buildcrafting and campaign mechanics into an ideal F.R. gaming world.

Also a contributing factor was that at the end of 3.5 (around 2007), so many of our gaming group members were demoralized at realizing their vast library of 3.5 D&D/FR books were now either going to be irrelevant or relegated to dust-collecting on the library lore shelf. WotC (in both their 4E and 5e Buildup Phases) seems to have very little interest in helping their good customers find relevance or use in the hundreds to thousands of dollars of "now obsolete" rulebooks and sourcebooks they acquired in 3.0/3.5 (as well as 1E & 2E).

The beauty of Pathfinder, is that all those older D&D and FR books you spent your hard-earned money on .... can still be used in some fashion (albeit with minor mechanical tweaking) with your current gaming experience. Pathfinder is not a perfect gaming system. But its 3.X continuity has been a huge boon to all of us. And while the FR lore being pumped out by WotC in 4E and 5E has been either underwhelming, disappointing or sparse ... it's still easily integratable into our hybridized 3.X/PF gaming world.

And I highly recommend all of you look into a similar gaming model for your F.R. RPG gaming experience.
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