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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Apr 2015 : 01:47:29
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A hundred years have passed, was there no technical innovation? Especially at a time when magic was, at best, unreliable. This flies in the face of logic.
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Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2015 : 03:05:40
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In general, I'd agree. I'm not going to change my Realms to reflect it, I like it the way it is, but I'll also play devil's advocate for a minute.
My understanding of the Spellplague era is that magic was unreliable in places, but not most of the planet. The instability was short lived.
I'd also theorize that magic is addictive. You're asking why a person who could learn to cast fireball with a wave of their hand daily, and all they need is a little study and rest, and they get it back daily, would instead limit themselves to crafting expendable hand grenades that aren't nearly as accurate.
It's also possible the Church of Gond has plenty of smokepowder based war devices, but is controlling public access to it. Kinda like keeping a stealth bomber out of mercenary hands.
Those are a few hair-brained ideas. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2015 : 05:52:38
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They destroyed Lantan in 4e. Ergo, little/no innovation in the smokepowder department.
Not saying I agree with the above decisions. But I think that's the logic. I also think that WotC feels that it's a non-issue. Like psionics, smokepowder was presented as an option. They don't seem interested in making it mainstream.
I'll also agree with Delwa, particularly regarding the church of Gond. Those people have secrets. And the Gondsmen and Lantanna were the only ones doing R&D on smokepowder. Thayans bought/improved some bombards, and resold them to pirates, but I doubt the Thayans were expanding the frontier of smokepowder science... magic is more accurate, as Delwa points out.
Just my 2 cents. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2015 : 08:07:42
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There's a secret cadre of Gondian priests and wizards working on a set of cataclysmic explosive devices to be deployed at the right time.
But first, they need that nagging harpy Mystra out of the way... |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2015 : 21:30:17
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You may be on to something there LoB. A Gondtron bomb.
I don't know, it just feels so...stagnant. Don't get me wrong, I love the setting, but it is not as if there have been any huge breakthroughs in the magical development department, if anything, it's gone backwards. No more mythals, no more mantles. Where is all the creative innovation going? |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 02 Apr 2015 21:38:17 |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2015 : 22:53:11
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I dunno... if you make the mechanics for each era reflect in the setting, you've got a lot of small advancements. Comparing my knowledge of 3E to 5E, you've gone from a maximum of so many cantrips per day to unlimited cantrip castings daily. Some types of metamagic have become commonplace in the system (put a spell in a higher slot for more damage, etc.) Ritual magic has become more commonplace, etc.
Yeah, mythal magic is not commonplace anymore, but I understand it's more because we learned that mythals have so many undesired and unpredictable repercussions that it is often too much effort for too much unpredictable payout. That, and Mystra's ban has kinda put a kink in things in that department. That restriction alone may have made the cost/benefit of creating mythals too high.
Also, with the death of Mystra several times over the past few editions, mages have had to relearn how to cast several times. Who knows what kinks that's thrown into magical research beyond just the basic casting that's in the PHB?
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- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2015 : 01:02:05
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ummm you are forgetting that smokepowder is magical in nature, thus after the spell plague for the 100 years smokepowder would not have worked and would not have worked until Mystra's return.
as for any tech advances, Lantan is gone under the waves, and unless they went the way of under water city state, it is gone with the waves along with all the tech stored there. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2015 : 01:06:45
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I see the realms reflecting more the end of medieval/early renaissance period before 1,400, and is much more firmly rooted in renaissance(albeit aesthetically medieval in places, largely due to the effects of spellplague) in the current age. Now that the Spellplague has finally fully settled in 5E they should definitely look to advancing things a bit with the discoveries that were no doubt made in the years preceding the time of troubles - given the world is now stable enough to mass implement them.
It is canon that a lot of people turned to Gods of Knowledge and Invention post spellplague so it fits. |
Edited by - Roseweave on 03 Apr 2015 01:07:14 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2015 : 01:39:06
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Status of SMOKEPOWDER after the Spellplague? Hmmm...
I believe all of its packaging across Faerûn has been required to be stamped with a banner that reads:
quote:
SURGEON GENERAL'S WARNING: This product has been found by the State of California to contain traces of WILD MAGIC and BLUE FLAME, substances which have been linked to an increased risk of developing CANCER.
quote:
NOTICE: This product may be HAZARDOUS TO YOUR HEALTH.
Oh, THAT "smokepowder"? I thought you meant... So, SO soorry!  |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2015 : 01:46:55
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Status of SMOKEPOWDER after the Spellplague? Hmmm...
I believe all of its packaging across Faerûn has been required to be stamped with a banner that reads:
quote:
SURGEON GENERAL'S WARNING: This product has been found by the State of California to contain traces of WILD MAGIC and BLUE FLAME, substances which have been linked to an increased risk of developing CANCER.
quote:
NOTICE: This product may be HAZARDOUS TO YOUR HEALTH.
Oh, THAT "smokepowder"? I thought you meant... So, SO soorry!
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- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2015 : 01:47:35
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| The Spellplague was supposed to have caused an increase in the proliferation of technology. Remember though that Smokepowder is NOT gunpowder and is faintly magical. Perhaps this magical nature caused it to become nonfunctional or unreliable after the Weave was torn. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2015 : 04:35:26
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| Spellplague infused Smokepowder. Now there's a thought... |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2015 : 15:09:58
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quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
The Spellplague was supposed to have caused an increase in the proliferation of technology. Remember though that Smokepowder is NOT gunpowder and is faintly magical. Perhaps this magical nature caused it to become nonfunctional or unreliable after the Weave was torn.
That's a detail that skipped my mind. I seem to also remember that regular gunpowder doesn't work in the Realms for some reason. That may have been a fellow Scribe's personal homebrew, though, so don't hold me to it.
Also, keep in mind that for invention to take place, there has to be a need. Invention doesn't usually happen just because.
The cotton gin was invented because there was a demand for more cotton than was financially feasible to produce in a day. The train was invented because a fast mode of transportation was wanted to transport people and goods great distances quickly.
People were slow to accept those changes to society. Just look at the fearmongering that came into play when the first subways were built.
Now bring that into a world of magic.
People are scared because magic is unstable. They've been relying on it for awhile now. Magic is simultaneously mysterious and familiar. They aren't familiar with mundane technology.
I can tell Joe Farmer that a steam powered tractor isn't magic and that its perfectly safe to harvest his crops with the harvester I'm providing. But if it looks like magic to him, if it quacks like a duck, he's going to think it's a duck. And he's going to avoid that duck because it's safer in his mind to do it the old fashioned way.
Same with a train. It looks like a fancy wagon that's had haste and a variation on fly cast on it.
Now, you'll have a few people that'll try it. But it's got to catch on.
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- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2015 : 20:02:42
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All true Delwa.
But the Wailing Years lasted for an entire decade. It's also stated that there was a surge in the worship of the Deities of Knowledge and Invention. I think 10 years of effectively powerless arcane casters, coupled with a swing towards Ohgma and Gond, etc. would definitely cause technological advances and a significant acceptance of them in general. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2015 : 20:22:08
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But ten years isn't that long, especially if you're talking going from sword and board plus magic tech to firearms and bombs.
In our own world, hand cannons first appeared in Europe around the 14th century, but it wasn't until the 16th century that a simple pistol became common place.
A decade simply isn't enough time to demand a huge leap from sword and board to, say rifles.
I'm not saying you cannot have it. I am saying that even a century isn't enough of a time gap to demand that the technology has jumped to hand grenades and rifles.
If you want it, you certainly have enough time to add it to your campaign. However, it does not strain credulity to keep things more or less the way they have been in the Realms. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2015 : 20:36:39
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| Also, I don't think it's accurate to say there was an absence of spellslingers during the Wailing Years. They certainly took a hit, but they were still around. Some magic items did function normally, and some spellslingers adjusted more quickly than others did. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2015 : 13:47:24
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Magic-vs-Technology is a traditional dichotomy in D&D fantasy. AD&D-era rules for world-making consistently proffered some sort of sliding scale where more of one meant less of the other. Things which depend on magic tend to lose their qualities when technology is dominant, things which depend on technology tend to lose their qualities when magic is dominant, things which depend on a mix of both tend to have their qualities diminished or reinforced when shifted to worlds where a different balance of fantasy/science applies. We all know that the rules of magic defy the rules of physics, we shouldn't be surprised if the reverse is equally true.
A mass-produced katana manufactured with advanced modern synthetic/metallurgical alloys and mechanical precision on Earth becomes simply an exceptionally sharp katana made from a strange (seemingly fantastic) metal when taken to Toril. A +3 vorpal longsword from Toril becomes simply an exceptionally sharp longsword made of unusual (but not chemically impossible) substances when taken to Earth. Either of these swords might have awesome intrinsic properties worthy of heroic legend or be so uselessly brittle/bendable in real combat they are worthy only as pretty decorations to hang on a wall - whichever the DM or author prefers.
3E sort of mixed things up by presenting overkill material-obsessed stat blocks and a dozen alternate magic systems. 4E simply focussed more on what the item is and does here and now, not on what it could do in some other corner of the universe where things work in strange and different ways.
Smokepowder in the Realms is always a magical substance and has always required magic to manufacture. Smokepowder analogues imported from other worlds either become magical Realms-like smokepowder or they become entirely inert alchemical curiosities which simply look like smokepowder. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 04 Apr 2015 14:06:49 |
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Roseweave
Learned Scribe
Ireland
212 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2015 : 18:37:32
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quote:
A mass-produced katana manufactured with advanced modern synthetic/metallurgical alloys and mechanical precision on Earth becomes simply an exceptionally sharp katana made from a strange (seemingly fantastic) metal when taken to Toril. A +3 vorpal longsword from Toril becomes simply an exceptionally sharp longsword made of unusual (but not chemically impossible) substances when taken to Earth.
That's making some assumptions as to how magic works, though. It may very well be that bringing a magic item into our world not only retains it's properties, but starts to spread.
The game Nier used a similar sort of plot device - it's set after an alternate ending of Drakengard where the main character and the Grotesqueries queen were teleported into the real world. The Grotesqueries Queen was destroyed, spreading magical white powder across the globe which introduced magic and corrupted magical entities to the globe(turning people into Zombies etc.), triggering a sort of apocalypse that reset the world to a Medieval-ish setting. Our world simply may not have magic because she haven't discovered it yet, or that it's not native to our realm - not that it's not "possible".
Conversely of course, other things may require the presence of latent magic/The Weave to function.
Also I think there's a difference between something that requires magic to manufacture and something that is magical. While you can go with the sort of setting where magic and technology become somewhat indistinct(like the Thor movies version of Asgard) generally there are so many ways to detect a magical presence, people would know. I prefer the idea that Smokepowder is natural, but magic can be used in producing it, since magic is used in place of technologies which don't exist yet. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2015 : 20:29:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Roseweave
quote:
A mass-produced katana manufactured with advanced modern synthetic/metallurgical alloys and mechanical precision on Earth becomes simply an exceptionally sharp katana made from a strange (seemingly fantastic) metal when taken to Toril. A +3 vorpal longsword from Toril becomes simply an exceptionally sharp longsword made of unusual (but not chemically impossible) substances when taken to Earth.
That's making some assumptions as to how magic works, though. It may very well be that bringing a magic item into our world not only retains it's properties, but starts to spread.
It's pretty much canon that D&D magic works in our world... I know of at least one Dragon adventure that was set in our world, and Elminster, Khelben, Mordenkainen, Dalamar, Shaaan the Serpent Queen, the Simbul, Qilué, and others have all visited Ed and TSR staffers like Steven Schend. None of them seemed to have any issues using magic. |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2015 : 23:58:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's pretty much canon that D&D magic works in our world... I know of at least one Dragon adventure that was set in our world, and Elminster, Khelben, Mordenkainen, Dalamar, Shaaan the Serpent Queen, the Simbul, Qilué, and others have all visited Ed and TSR staffers like Steven Schend. None of them seemed to have any issues using magic.
I think I saw a brief snippet somewhere that groups like the Twisted Rune employed people from our world to be agents in the Realms as well. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2015 : 00:57:41
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quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's pretty much canon that D&D magic works in our world... I know of at least one Dragon adventure that was set in our world, and Elminster, Khelben, Mordenkainen, Dalamar, Shaaan the Serpent Queen, the Simbul, Qilué, and others have all visited Ed and TSR staffers like Steven Schend. None of them seemed to have any issues using magic.
I think I saw a brief snippet somewhere that groups like the Twisted Rune employed people from our world to be agents in the Realms as well.
I cannot say that I recall any canon references to Earthfolk in the Realms. Plenty of folks from other planes or other planets (including Nehwon, of the Lankmar books), but no one from Earth comes to mind... |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2015 : 01:20:21
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| that witch... the one with the chicken hut.... boba yagga or something |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2015 : 03:45:25
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
that witch... the one with the chicken hut.... boba yagga or something
Baba Yaga. And I recall legends of her, and what may or may not have been her hut, but not Baba Yaga herself.
And that's not the same thing, anyway... Baba Yaga is a very powerful entity, in D&D, something far more than mortal and not restricted to any single world. She's a legend, and a lot of Earth legends and mythologies have real representation in the Realms and other D&D worlds -- like medusae, minotaurs, werewolves, vampires, various deities...
No, I was referring to just regular folks. Regular NPCs, not monsters or demipowers or anything like that. |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2015 : 03:57:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
that witch... the one with the chicken hut.... boba yagga or something
Baba Yaga. And I recall legends of her, and what may or may not have been her hut, but not Baba Yaga herself.
And that's not the same thing, anyway... Baba Yaga is a very powerful entity, in D&D, something far more than mortal and not restricted to any single world. She's a legend, and a lot of Earth legends and mythologies have real representation in the Realms and other D&D worlds -- like medusae, minotaurs, werewolves, vampires, various deities...
No, I was referring to just regular folks. Regular NPCs, not monsters or demipowers or anything like that.
I know everyone here is mostly into DnD. But Baba Yaga had a wicked character in White Wolf's Vampire/Werewolf RPG's. Rage across Russia was the sourcebook I think. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2015 : 05:35:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
that witch... the one with the chicken hut.... boba yagga or something
Baba Yaga. And I recall legends of her, and what may or may not have been her hut, but not Baba Yaga herself.
And that's not the same thing, anyway... Baba Yaga is a very powerful entity, in D&D, something far more than mortal and not restricted to any single world. She's a legend, and a lot of Earth legends and mythologies have real representation in the Realms and other D&D worlds -- like medusae, minotaurs, werewolves, vampires, various deities...
No, I was referring to just regular folks. Regular NPCs, not monsters or demipowers or anything like that.
I know everyone here is mostly into DnD. But Baba Yaga had a wicked character in White Wolf's Vampire/Werewolf RPG's. Rage across Russia was the sourcebook I think.
Yup. She's also a part of Golarion, the Pathfinder setting. One of the recent Adventure Paths included her son -- a charming Russian gent by the name of Rasputin. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2015 : 17:38:34
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Baba Yaga is so powerful she can cross over IP's! 
On Topic: I've always felt that the Smokepowder in FR IS Black Powder (according to the Watercourse trilogy it has the same ingredients), but that some sort of spell is cast upon it to circumvent the physics of Realmspace that keeps it from exploding (in other words Ao or whoever made a rule that it wouldn't work... and then someone - probably several someones - found ways around that with magic). For example, the priests of Gond perform a 'secret ritual' over the Black powder and *presto*, they've got Smokepowder. Since Smokepowder weapons work outside of Realmspace, and both can be loaded into the exact same weapons, I think I have a pretty strong case here that they are indeed actually the same material (Smokepowder just has a dweomer on it to get it to work in FR).
I had a great little story about Guns... and Elminster, and Khelben... and the Zhents. Maybe someday that will see print somewhere. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2015 : 18:35:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Baba Yaga is so powerful she can cross over IP's!
She was statted up for a 2E AD&D adventure that was not setting specific. And her numbers/abilities were scary -- there are plenty of avatars that would be well advised to run from her. |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2015 : 00:40:03
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| One of the most powerful creatures statted out for PF as well. A 20th level witch with 10 Archmage mythic tiers and the advanced template. That's about as powerful as an NPC arcane caster can get! |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
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Topic |
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Status of Smokepowder Post-Spellplague
