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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Apr 2015 : 13:56:48
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
and that the definition of ''horror'' becomes pretty loose in a War where so many of the participants unleashed dark or destructive powers, killing and devastating without discrimination (basically, to use your example, no longer a situation of ''Nazis'' vs ''Allies'', but a situation of different degrees of ''Nazis'').
Uh... Learning history from schoolbooks? 
My point is that everyone committed atrocities in the Crown Wars, it's ''different degrees of bad'', rather than bad vs good. I continued the example of ''allies'' and ''nazi'' to make the point clear, even if it is a quite unhappy choice. I didn't mean to say that it would be right to consider any of the wars between countries that happened in our history as battles of clear-cut ''good'' vs ''evil'': usually horrible things are done by both sides and people suffer on both sides.
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Just imagine Jesus saving only like 20% of mankind
Uh... Did you ever read this?
Because it look like the teaching in question had an intended area of applicability - much like, for example, everything else. 
I'll explain what I meant with that.
I'm not Christian, so I may be wrong, but (to my knowledge) Jesus' sacrifice removed the original sin from the whole mankind. Setting aside for a moment that Eilistraee's goal has nothing to do with removing some curse, assuming that it were so, what happens in the LP (if we consider the ''sacrifice'' speculation as canon) would be comparable to Jesus sacrificing to remove the original sin from 20% of Mankind, while completely leaving the other frigging 80% to their fate. Not even the ''crumbs'', using the example of your link, would be left for them, since -for those who are not part of the ''chosen ones''- who would be there for them? It just doesn't make sense and greatly diminishes Eilistraee. But, as you said, this has already been discussed.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
The severing of that bond was meant to deprive the drow of (what I feel is) the main distinctive trait that makes an elf part of the elven people (not from a magic standpoint, but from a ''you are no longer part of a people'' standpoint), further damaging relations between the two sides of the war, but also as a sort of symbol.
Yes, but it still comes across as not just closing the barn after the cows ran away, but loudly chasing the cows out of the barn after they ran away.
I realize that elves have a big pathetic self-centered streak, but that's over the top.
But it basically is the same as the canon version. The elves/Seldarine have forced the drow underground by imposing them sunlight sensitivity (which happened in my FR as well) and any drow trying to get back on the surface would be attacked on sight (which is what I meant by marked to be hunted). So what I'm doing is just retaining the ''bond-severing'', emphasizing the ''sundered people'' part, while ignoring the aspect change.
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Without metaphors - you're trying to get rid of something that was stretched to drag the issue under American OMGRACIST!!1 tongue-flail-fest in the first place.
And you "solve" this problem in a way that is redundant due to being a part of canon already - elven bond is a part of their magical nature, changing which (if in a much broader sense) already was heavily hinted to be the whole point.
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The curse obviously couldn't have change in appearance as the primary effect
If the skin color change merely is a collateral consequence, then I could get behind it. But -correct me if I'm wrong- many sources (LEoF, for example) say that the skin change is one of the main intended results, to ''reflect the evil'' of the drow, or something along those lines. This and the other things you pointed out are the reason why I prefer -as I said- to downplay the magical side of the curse and turn it into something more like a mark, or a judgement.
LEoF also says it was to "cast out of Corellon's favor" - and -especially at the point when he approved such a measure - this practically means removing some "gifts" associated with his portfolio. Which points at Elven magic.
As to the mark, "I'll make you look outside like you are inside!" is a classical "screw you" move for a tsundere witch like Circe slapping a village lout, but for magically strong civilizations something so easily masked isn't worth much efforts. And in this case they would pay utmost attention to limiting it to those they dislike, because other dark elves are the only ones from whom the damned ones have to be discerned - it's not like they could be mistaken for Goldies... without the sort of disguise that works either way.
Thus, this purpose had to be thrown in as an afterthought, or even added retroactively.
I don't like the fact that the curse changed their appearence and the whole ''evil inside-black outside'' thing --and not only because of racism, but because I don't find it to be a meaningful punishment or change--. Because of that, -as I've just said- I removed the part of the curse that looks like ''original sin that reflects on your skin'', put emphasis on ''you're no longer part of the elven people'' (and it works as a ''mark'' , because drow disgued as elves would still be felt as non-elves) and retained the sunlight sensitivity.
Ignoring the "I'll make you look outside like you are inside!" part (which, as little sense as it would make for a magic-advanced civilization --given, like you point out, how easy it would be to disguise-- was indeed one of the goals of the curse in canon, since it is something that I often see highlighted. It seems that it was an act of spite) and saying that the change in appearence was a collateral, not intended, effect would lead to a similar picture to that of my Realms.
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 01 Apr 2015 20:47:45 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2015 : 21:55:19
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I am bugged by lore that said skin color changed.
From 2nd Edition quote:
As Araushnee, Lolth was once a lesser power of the Seldarine and the
consort of Corellon Larethian. She was the patron of artisans, the
goddess of elven destiny, and-later, by Corellon's decree-the keeper of
those elves who shared her darkly beautiful features.
As such it would appear both Araushnee and the dark elves already had dark/black skin.
Yes I know new changes the old. So indeed Araushnee might have been a fair complexion and dark elves just a slightly darker Green elf. *sighs* |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2015 : 21:26:33
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maybe Corellon was evil at that time
or the same way Zeus is chaotic good, gods could determine what's ''good'' |
z455t |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2015 : 22:02:11
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After reading through this scroll I would argue that Corellon is indeed a tyrant. If the ''original'' elves were fey than Corellon is just some kind of usurper. As for the definition of "corruption'', if that means worshipping a deity, any deity, to gain power in the here and now and then using that power to make war upon others why is worshipping Ghaunadar different than worshipping Corellon? Because Corellon is a petty, insecure deity who feels that he is somehow better or more pure and that it is HIS vision for the elven race that is correct and death to any who oppose him. He is a violent, narcissistic megalomaniac.
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Definitely not Good, by any stretch of the lore |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 02 Apr 2015 22:24:59 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2015 : 22:34:51
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| As his devout and one of the few who actually seems to like Corellon, I am about done with this thread. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2015 : 04:53:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
I am bugged by lore that said skin color changed.
[...]
As such it would appear both Araushnee and the dark elves already had dark/black skin.
There's difference between "black" as very dark brown, like "black" humans, and "black" as obsidian.
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Cormanthyr - Empire of the Elves:
While the original Dark Elves from before the Crown Wars were merely dusky elves with pale hair, the drow of the Underdark have, over the millennia of exile, darkened to obsidian and taken on their more familiar visages as enemies.
quote:
Originally posted by Kno
maybe Corellon was evil at that time
or the same way Zeus is chaotic good
Yup. "but harmless when not out of his head" (c)
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
Because Corellon is a petty, insecure deity who feels that he is somehow better or more pure and that it is HIS vision for the elven race that is correct and death to any who oppose him. He is a violent, narcissistic megalomaniac.
Again - he's an elven god. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2015 : 14:14:52
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All the 'facts' in this conversation are based on our interpretation of myths. In addition I think it's hard to say what actually was the cause and what was the effect. I prefer to look at what the elves on the surface actually were doing at the time, instead of calling out the gods they worshipped as responcable for it all.
In my interpretation the high magic ritual that condemned and transformed the Ilythiiri succeeded at a cost Corellons clergy deemed appropriate, as is usual in high magic. But it was tampered with by Lolths spies and catastrophically transmuted more targets then intended. Lolth and her demonic allies would opportunisticly claim all dark elves so cursed, greatly increasing their worship-base. Corellon had attempted to sweep his opposition underground giving time for his remaining not-demon-tainted elven worshippers to reclaim the dark and green elven forest domains.
The many centuries of conquest of the Ilythiiri gave Lolths chosen race a large booming population that had intermingled with the sylvan elven kingdoms they had conquered. The hundreds of years of traffic with fiendish powers also had made the demonic bloodlines trickle down into the commoner dark and green elves' blood. So dark elves were already increasingly showing demonic features (in my campaign fiendsih red eyes were common amongst Ilythiiri soldiers) before their curse into drow. When the transmuting curse hit all dark elves, it changed green elves with Wendonais or other demonic taint into drow too.
I highly doubt the high magic ritual that attempted to cleanse the elven race of demontaint was completed without dark elven ruling elites fore-knowledge. Their hasty attempts at meddling with the ritual is what caused it to have such a drastic effect, and actually benefitted their fiendish godess' power in the end.
Corellon might be brash, violent and narcissitic, but he is still good in my view. Dealing with demonic infestations amongst your people is a sticky situation that calls for action, with severe consequences however you solve it.
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2015 : 20:31:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
All the 'facts' in this conversation are based on our interpretation of myths.
That would mean you have an interpretation of the myths that provides facts, I'm sorry, 'facts' supporting your own convictions. You theorize that the dark elves must have done something and were the interlopers, nay, controllers of the High Magic ritual to cause it to go awry. Would it not make more sense that if the dark elves have the ability to interfere with their enemies' most powerful of powerful magics and alter it without their knowing that they would instead change it to blow up in their self-righteous faces than allowing it to continue to smack them with the intended effects plus some more people? Also, what happened as written seems to be in line with other examples of high magic doing unintended damage and disastrous effects... unless you are blaming that on the dark elves, too.
Shelving that argument for the moment, let's say that what you said was true. The goldies just realized that their tactical nuclear launch at the specific dark elf leaders actually launched all their nuclear weapons at every dark elf enclave in the world resulting in the near perfect mass-warping of an entire race of people. No one said, "how in the blankety-blank did that happen!?! Where did it go wrong? Show me that ritual sheet again!" Not even one of the "perfectionist" gold elves tried to track down the error and, I'm just saying, fix it? If this is mortal magic then mortal magic should be able to undo it even on a one-on-one basis. The curse has endured for thousands of years. Enough time for a new half-breed race of daemonfey or fey'ri or whatever their called of sun elf and demon bred beings to emerge.
Setting that aside, let's bring this conversation back to Corellon. What does he do? Across multiple books it says he is the god of all elves, the greatest of their gods, and that he is the god of magic. Since Mystyl controlled the weave from the beginning (I know, relying on the written myths of the books but go with me on this one) what does Corellon having "magic" in his portfolio actually do about it? After all, you still point out how the clergy of Corellon were involved in the ritual. This loaded gun, using magic, pointed at many of Corellon's "children" as it were, just... "went off" without the god knowing what was going to happen? The real nitty-gritty of what was going to happen from the most aged of the dark elves to the most nascent of dividing cells within the wombs of dark elf mothers? Is Corellon, the god of magic & elves, just negligently unaware? He has to know exactly what will happen and what has happened or Corellon is a god of neither elves nor magic.
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The many centuries of conquest of the Ilythiiri gave Lolths chosen race a large booming population that had intermingled with the sylvan elven kingdoms they had conquered.
Many centuries... intermingled... you are aware we are talking about elves, right? Y'know, the things that can't even begin to procreate until after a century of being alive? Wow, were they ever busy to have a large, booming population of mixed heritage! Modern drow may have faster maturation and earlier death rates (according to some sources) but we are talking about dark elves before being twisted by magic and subjected to the survival-of-the-fittest Underdark for over 10,000 years. A century is a long time to us because generally we don't live long enough to see one. The elves use the century mark to say, "hey, sport, you're almost ready to be considered an adult. Now grab your friends and let's see if you can blow out all the candles without passing out first!" Yes, this is fictional, but the fiction is of these other-wordly beings who take as reality and matter-of-fact things that are bizarre and alien to our understanding and ways of thinking. All too often I catch people supplanting our modern homo sapien standards onto these fictional people and it makes as much sense as fish needing walking sticks. If your elves are just pointy-eared humans in your games, fine, but don't say that's the way they are intended as written because that is not true.
In your game you can make things whatever way you want to, like the dark elves being the causes of their own high ritual to morph into drow against the wishes and will of Corellon and the "fair" elves. I'm not going to say "you're wrong and you need to go to gamer jail" for doing so. But in terms of the writing in the Forgotten Realms products? This thread is filled with quotes and references pertaining to... how'd you put it? Ah, yes, 'facts.' All of the materials of the Forgotten Realms make the 'facts' which are the basis for our games and this community. Until some writer paid by WotC or whomever next holds the rights changes or contradicts what has been written then what is there is there and what we have doesn't look good for the elves and their. And that's a fact. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2015 : 21:29:53
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As far as Corellon being the god of magic, my understanding is that he the god of elven magic. Elves by nature are magical beings. I'm not saying they're all wizards, but they have magic in their veins, so to speak. Elven wizards use the Weave to cast spells like everyone else, and Mystra governs the Weave, but to quote [i]Demihuman Deities [i] "Corellon oversees elven magic, particularly elven High Magic, and the intimate connection between the mantle of magic that envelops the world" (pg 100).
Maybe he knew about the backlash the high magic ritual would cause, maybe he didn't, but I get the impression FR gods are not always privy to foresight, and they have their limitations. He is not the only god tohave made a mistake, nor is he the only one to cause wide-spread changes in Faerun. By the time of the time the high magic ritual took place, the Crown Wars had been going on a long time, even by elven standards, and the Seldarine were forced to intervene, lest the elven race destroy itself. The spell went wrong, yes, but "fixing" a curse is a lot harder than making it in the first place. In the end, the choice, while a hard one, saved the elven race, which, -as the god of elves- would be Corellon's priority. After the Descent, at Corellon's behest, the elven leaders got together to discuss the causes of these wars. This is where the Vyshan (who were gold elves) were found guilty and their empire destroyed. The Seldarine wanted the Crown Wars to end.
It was war, and war is ugly, and the most unfortunate thing about war is that innocents suffer and sometimes pay the ultimate price. The high magic ritual went wrong, and innocent dark elves paid along with the "corrupted" Ilythiiri, were cursed. I'm not saying it is right or fair, but in the end, it was that or continue to see Lolth and her allies grow in influence among the tainted Ilythiiri, which would cause more havoc and lengthen the Crown Wars even further. By banishing the dark elves to the Underdark, the Seldarine got rid of the corrupted dark elf infleunce among the elves. Yeah it gave Lolth the opportunity for more control over her new worshipers, but it also prevented her infleunce from spreading further among the elven empire (or what was left of it).
I believe someone used the analogy earlier of cutting off the infected limb to save the body. Sometimes you have to cut off the whole arm to keep the infection from spreading, even if only part of the arm is infected. Maybe Corellon and the other Seldarine are waiting to see if the dark elves can redeem themselves. Events in LP aside, Eilistraee's infleunce, however small it currently is, is proof that there is hope |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2015 : 21:38:13
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@SaMoCon: Your point about the difficulty of explaining the dark elves having a role in the curse is good. I think it would have to be Lolth herself -- or possibly something older/deeper like Ghaunadaur, but why would he care?
There is some interpretation/perspective in this conversation, though. Only considering my own posts, there's a range of possibilities from "high mages psh, Corellon did this" through "okay high mages started it but Corellon could have stopped it or fixed it afterwards" to "maybe Corellon did this with the goal of only transforming those dark elves who actively served demons/Ghaunadaur/whatever, but Lolth somehow twisted it to her own advantage." That's quite a bit of wiggle room in terms of trying to make some kind of firm decision about Corellon's morality.
My decision (so far) for my own games is that even with the most "kind" interpretation, Corellon is a cold and violent neanderthal in comparison with everything we've been told about elven ideals, and he doesn't deserve his position at the head of the Seldarine. I think he should be regarded more like Abbathor or Urdlen. Those guys undoubtedly have a story too; something that made them the way they are. Evil, but not necessarily deliberately evil -- more like a creeping darkness or gradual hollowing that has taken them in the course of the uncounted millennia they've existed.
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Edited by - xaeyruudh on 05 Apr 2015 21:41:54 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2015 : 22:08:09
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It's a shame the Descent darkens Corellon's image. I don't think he was meant to be painted that way. Demihuman Deities, other sourcebooks I have read with deity and or/elven info, along with novels "starring" elves, protray him as kind and a guardian. As guardian, like I said in my previous post, he had to make the ultimate decision to save the elven race, even if it meant cutting off the entire limb, not just the infected area. It was either that or see the elves destroy themselves. And it's not like Corellon helped with the high ritual and then sat back on his throne. No, he commanded the elven leaders to unite to stop the war. The elves had been involved in a civil war that was long even by their standards. The Seldarine--and for that matter many elves--had had enough.
The consequences of the ritual were dire and sad, but the Crown Wars were ugly from all all angles. Again, I'm not saying it was right or fair that the innocent Ilythiiri were cursed, but by that time, Lolth's infleunce was spreading, and to stop it, the dark elves had to be cut off from the other elves, to prevent the spread.
It wasn't just the dark elves, though. The Vyshaan, who were gold elves, were punished and got what they deserved as well. And as I said, I believe there is hope for the drow, and perhaps the Seldarine are waiting to see what will happen. There are individuals, who, while not a Drizzt, do not have the "Lolth curse" ruining through them. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2015 : 22:39:58
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Still not attacking you.  But also still not letting Corellon off the hook.
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Elven wizards use the Weave to cast spells like everyone else, and Mystra governs the Weave, but to quote Demihuman Deities "Corellon oversees elven magic, particularly elven High Magic, and the intimate connection between the mantle of magic that envelops the world" (pg 100).
Sure, but it doesn't really work for elves to worship a human goddess while looking down on humans. They would honor Corellon as magic... all of it. The details of how he interacts with Mystra are invisible to the elves.
Tangent: I think it would be interesting if the part of Mystra that oversees magic and the Weave overlaps the part of Corellon that serves as an interface for elven high mages... meaning part of Mystra and part of Corellon (and part of every other cultural god of magic) is the same entity, and perhaps that entity is actually the Weave, and every culture that interacts with it interprets it into its own mythology. Giving myself a headache, so I'll shut up about that.
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Maybe he knew about the backlash the high magic ritual would cause, maybe he didn't, but I get the impression FR gods are not always privy to foresight, and they have their limitations.
Sure, but they're responsible for the consequences. The road to evil alignment is paved with good intentions. 
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
the Crown Wars had been going on a long time, even by elven standards, and the Seldarine were forced to intervene, lest the elven race destroy itself.
Forced? Apparently not, if we give any weight to the wording in the Cormanthyr source. The Seldarine only seemed to become aware of the Crown Wars after over 1,000 priests and high mages in Illefarn and elsewhere spent a century or so in prayer. In a sense this manipulated the Seldarine into acting because it was probably an obvious and well-known phenomenon in elven communities (it's in the history books after all)... to ignore them would run the risk of being questioned/blamed/rejected by large numbers of elves. But it seems clear to me that if all that widely known praying hadn't happened the elves would have gone on marching into oblivion.
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
The spell went wrong, yes, but "fixing" a curse is a lot harder than making it in the first place.
Sez who? Sure, that could be true, but why does it have to be? Especially for a god?
This particular work of high magic didn't "reach forward and backward in time" like the original Sundering. This was a smaller thing. It was basically a big ol hairy polymorph spell. Why shouldn't the god of elven high magic be able to say "uh, no" and reach 5 seconds back in time to momentarily pinch off the mages' access to magic when it became clear that the spell would have unintended consequences... if, in fact, they were unintended.
The answer to that might be (A) Mystra wouldn't let him for whatever bizarre reason, (B) someone else (Lolth is one logical possibility) had control of the magic and for some reason he couldn't fix that either, or (C) the spell worked as intended. C is the least complicated, and by Occam's Razor until a simpler explanation comes up C is the correct answer. The Greenwood Exception allows for Ed to say "no, guys, xaeyruudh is barmy again, it actually happened like this."
Nah, I know that Occam doesn't have any influence in the Realms, or in D&D. I'm just trying to keep things light.
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
The Seldarine wanted the Crown Wars to end.
While this is logical, it isn't necessarily backed up by Cormanthyr. Illefarn and the other other free nations doing all that praying wanted the Crown Wars to end. There's no indication (in this source) that the Seldarine gave a flying rat's patootie either way; they responded when it became clear that significant representatives of their people wanted a solution.
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I'm not saying it is right or fair, but in the end, it was that or continue to see Lolth and her allies grow in influence among the tainted Ilythiiri, which would cause more havoc and lengthen the Crown Wars even further.
Wait, no. I'm not disagreeing with everything you're saying, but Ilythiir wasn't responsible for the Crown Wars. Aryvandaar started it, and removing Aryvandaar from the picture was the way to end the Crown Wars. It's true that getting rid of Ilythiir was in everyone else's best interest, but it chiefly aided Aryvandaar by eliminating the only elven nation with enough firepower to keep Aryvandaar from maintaining its chokehold over most of the other elven nations. Sure, the Ilythiiri were evil, but by that point in the war they were the smaller nations' best hope of opposing Aryvandaar.
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Yeah it gave Lolth the opportunity for more control over her new worshipers, but it also prevented her infleunce from spreading further among the elven empire (or what was left of it).
How did cursing the dark elves affect Lolth's ability to corrupt other elves?
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I believe someone used the analogy earlier of cutting off the infected limb to save the body.
This is true on earth, but only because we don't have magic. It's becoming less true over time, even here, as technology improves. It provide no valid excuses for the damning of thousands of innocent dark elves and their offspring. Corellon doesn't get to hide behind relating the Ilythiiri dependence on demons to gangrene or cancer.
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Maybe Corellon and the other Seldarine are waiting to see if the dark elves can redeem themselves.
Maybe, but there's no support for this in any source that I've seen.
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
The Vyshaan, who were gold elves, were punished and got what they deserved as well.
Not even close. The Vyshaan were punished in about the same way as the Nazis were punished. They lost their empire, and some percentage of them (inevitably far less than we'd like to think) were executed. Their name is comparable to profanity for a while.
There is no comparison with having your entire race polymorphed into another form and rejected by their gods and all of their former kin for eternity. For every other race, children are born innocent... drow children are born cursed. Even if they hadn't already served demons and evil powers, they would logically have turned to anything that hated the Seldarine after the Descent. Even if they had rejected Lolth, they would still have chosen a demon prince or Ghaunadaur... and why not? What alternative was there? Corellon wouldn't take them even if they wanted him. Eilistraee? Some did choose her, but she wasn't a rational choice due to being weakened. The drow needed someone who was powerful, and out to murder the elves and the Seldarine... Lolth fit the bill and Eilistraee didn't.
Meanwhile, the gold elves were livin it up on Evermeet. We should all be so "punished."
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2015 : 23:03:46
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I will respond more later. I guess I need to look at Cormanthyr . I am not sure if I have that sourcebook or not. I have been going by what I have read in Lost Empires and the Demihuman Deities.
I know the Ilythiiri didn't start it. It started over territory, which is--sadly--a common reason for war. And I am aware that the Ilythiiri had a bigger punishment than the Vyshaan. What I meant by punishment was that their empire (or whatever you want to call it) was destroyed, and the Vyshaan were cut off from the rest of the elves, and vyshaan is now considered a huge insult. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2015 : 23:22:39
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I will respond more later. I guess I need to look at Cormanthyr . I am not sure if I have that sourcebook or not. I have been going by what I have read in Lost Empires and the Demihuman Deities.
I know the Ilythiiri didn't start it. It started over territory, which is--sadly--a common reason for war. And I am aware that the Ilythiiri had a bigger punishment than the Vyshaan. What I meant by punishment was that their empire (or whatever you want to call it) was destroyed, and the Vyshaan were cut off from the rest of the elves, and vyshaan is now considered a huge insult.
One of the points that could be raised is: why as long as the gold elves were concerned, only the Vyshaan (leaders, mages priests, what you have) were punished, but when it came to the dark elves, it was the whole damn population? We're back to discussing whether or not the common dude was ''corrupted'', and I've already posted my reasons why assuming that the majority of the population was ''corrupted'' doesn't really make sense (and again, Lolth wasn't even the main deity back then...). To add insult to injury, among the elves ''drow/dhaeraow'', which now represents the identity of a race -and no longer merely a curse-, is considered a terrible insult as well (which is not exactly nice to those drow, like the followers of Eilistraee, that are rightfully proud of what they are and of the choice that they have made).
The only options remaining are (excluding Corellon's intentionally cursing the whole race) the ritual going awry or Lolth interfering, but even those raise some questions. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 05 Apr 2015 23:28:07 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2015 : 23:52:56
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One thing that should be mentioned.
It appears every time High Magic was used to call for a major event there were unintended results. The Founding of Evermeet comes to mind. Maybe AO got involved in with some kind of oversight that basically twists a wish (Some thing in the past DMs were advised to do) to offer a teaching lesson to all. That being "Try not for too much, for you will get less then you truely desire." *shrugs*
In some ways many deities really did not care that much for their followers, just made sure they had some.
Of course deities do not know the future results of their choices, they have never been presented as such. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2015 : 00:58:34
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Just my two cents, but I can't see Ao getting involved in the use of high magic unless it somehow threatens the existence of one or more gods. Mortals beating each other (and even the world itself) up? That's for Mystra and the Seldarine to deal with.
If it were Corellon's (or Mystra's) goal to teach the elves to be more circumspect with their magic, a more logical lesson would involve consequences for the high mages themselves.
This was more like "okay, these guys you hate, and are trying to curse... I'm gonna go ahead and let you do that, and also amplify it to screw their entire race. That will teach you."
No, it won't, and no god should think it might. In a conflict between two forces who loathe each other, neither of them will learn anything from resounding success. They'll go "Let that be a lesson to you! Don't mess with me!"
We see it on playgrounds and workplaces, all over America and probably around the world. |
Edited by - xaeyruudh on 06 Apr 2015 01:00:36 |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2015 : 01:08:00
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quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Just my two cents, but I can't see Ao getting involved in the use of high magic unless it somehow threatens the existence of one or more gods.
Didn't see an inking of his influence when Kiaransalee got wiped either. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2015 : 02:11:41
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quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
Didn't see an inking of his influence when Kiaransalee got wiped either.
Doesn't mean they won't use him to "explain" it retroactively.
Exhibit A: Leira being killed by Cyric offscreen. It didn't happen, until it had already happened. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2015 : 03:31:12
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Okay turns out I do have -Cormanthyr: Empire of of the Elves-. I read the Crown Wars section, and honestly, I can't see how the information provided places all the blame on Corellon and makes him seem like the bad guy. The only "blaming" piece I could find was the timeline, in which -10,000 was the year of the Descent, and there it says his magic, directed through priests and High Mages, changes the dark elves into drow.
To me, the blame lies more on the elves themselves (both the dark elves and the fairer slinned ones) than the gods themselves. If the Crown Wars had not occurred, then the Descent may not have happened. But it does say the Ilythiiri brutally attacked moon and green elves of Keltormir, harrassing them. Their brutal tactics earned them the name "dhaeraow".
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2015 : 03:45:12
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Okay turns out I do have -Cormanthyr: Empire of of the Elves-. I read the Crown Wars section, and honestly, I can't see how the information provided places all the blame on Corellon and makes him seem like the bad guy. The only "blaming" piece I could find was the timeline, in which -10,000 was the year of the Descent, and there it says his magic, directed through priests and High Mages, changes the dark elves into drow.
To me, the blame lies more on the elves themselves (both the dark elves and the fairer slinned ones) than the gods themselves.
The blame lies on both, actually. Both parts had to be willing and aware, in order for the ritual to happen (barring stuff going wrong. But even then, in RL negligence is something that people are condemned for). I wouldn't say that Corellon is the ''bad guy'', rather that in a situation like that of the Crown Wars there is no good guy.
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If the Crown Wars had not occurred, then the Descent may not have happened. But it does say the Ilythiiri brutally attacked moon and green elves of Keltormir, harrassing them. Their brutal tactics earned them the name "dhaeraow".
This doesn't mean that we can blame those tactics on the common people. Would you blame the ruthless and totally unprovoked attack that Aryvandaar launched on Miyeritar (not the Dark Disater, but the war that started the chain) on the common people? Would you blame the Dark Disaster itself on them? Also, IIRC, you could say that Ilythiir's attack on Keltomir had the purpose of doing justice to the slaughtered dark elves of Miyeritar (even if this likely is stretching it, and perhaps it was just a good excuse to attack).
It is also funny that the dark elves were ''immediately'' labeled as traitors of the people (dhaeraow) for the actions of their army and leaders, while the gold elves didn't get any nice label for doing arguably worse stuff (genocide).
At the end of the day, all parts committed atrocities (like in most wars), the only difference -the thing that likely triggered the curse- was that some Ilythiiri worshipped Lolth. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 06 Apr 2015 03:47:29 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2015 : 04:08:10
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I'm using my phone instead of my computer right now, so I'm not going to directly quote, because it's a pain to do that on the phone ^^;
True, there is blame on both sides. I'm not eaying Corellon is flawless, but my point was he shouldn't be labelled as evil, and I don't think he should take the entirety of the blame
And, no, I would not blame it on the common people. And yes, initially, the Ilythiiri reacted because of what happened with Miyeriter, but I think their tactics were seen as overly violent, and they were harrassing moon elves who were trying to stay out the fight. The text didn't really going in to how the Ilythiiri used more brutal tactics than those who started the war, so that is a little confusing.
I agree Aryvandaar (and thus the Vyshaantar) should have been punished more severely and sooner, since they started the whole thing. But after the Seldarine told the elven leaders to get together and put an end to this whole thing, the elves found the Vyshaan guilty, and the Fifth Crown War was the fall of their empire. Their lives were declared forfeit. It's a complicated point in history, and all we--and for that matter elven historians and theologians--can do is speculate. None of the sources I have looked at go into all that much detail on the Crown Wars. It's mostly short paragraphs or sentences saying B group of elves did this, X god did this, and no one knows why Z happened.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2015 : 04:14:12
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quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
Would it not make more sense that if the dark elves have the ability to interfere with their enemies' most powerful of powerful magics and alter it without their knowing that they would instead change it to blow up in their self-righteous faces than allowing it to continue to smack them with the intended effects plus some more people?
Saboteurs working for Ilythiir, yes. Saboteurs working for Lolth, no, they'd just do what she says.
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Also, what happened as written seems to be in line with other examples of high magic doing unintended damage and disastrous effects... unless you are blaming that on the dark elves, too.
Yes, but High Magic doing something unexpectedly beneficial - now that's unusual.
Sabotage could have ensured that the ritual gives them powers and larger starting population, rather than just messes them up and then blows up. So it's plausible and not unlikely, while not necessary either.
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No one said, "how in the blankety-blank did that happen!?! Where did it go wrong? Show me that ritual sheet again!" Not even one of the "perfectionist" gold elves tried to track down the error and, I'm just saying, fix it?
HM going ugly, as you have noted, isn't too unusual in itself.
And yes, "them all!!1" is a recognizable part of elven mentality, so it was probably more of "oops..." than "oh, noes!"
Then add the assassinations of HM by agents of Aryvandaar having a good guess as to who's next.
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If this is mortal magic then mortal magic should be able to undo it even on a one-on-one basis.
Not really. There's no reason why disintegration or induced vampirism "should be" reversible.
But... it is, indeed, reversible:
quote:
Cormanthyr - Empire of the Elves
Suyoll/ "The Revival": This ritual restores an elf's life, health, and harmony with the Weave. This is seen as an acceptance back into the community of elves, despite any changes that occur during the elf's life (or death).
[...]
DM's Note: This ritual is rarely used, for the elves are a stubborn lot and forgiveness is not a virtue they practice often.
Thus, any outcast elf or seriously injured elf is often perceived
as pitiful or as a fool who learned his lesson for straying away
from the path of elvenkind. However, great sacrifices made
for sake of a clan or kingdom are looked upon proudly, and
the suyoll is invoked to honor heroes who act in such interests. This ritual can even restore a drow to status among the Tel'Quessir, though the ritual erases all powers (but not appearance) of the drow (judge as a moon elf).
In other words: typical HMs may throw their lives away for a grand enough gesture (like a mythal or last stand), but with no prospect of becoming a legend would take risk to (and before fall of Netheril - bother to) help even one of their own only when it would be really embarrassing not to. What dark elves?
And is this surprising?
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Is Corellon, the god of magic & elves, just negligently unaware? He has to know exactly what will happen and what has happened or Corellon is a god of neither elves nor magic.
This have to fall somewhere between "guidance and inspiration" and "tacit approval", yes.
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
My decision (so far) for my own games is that even with the most "kind" interpretation, Corellon is a cold and violent neanderthal in comparison with everything we've been told about elven ideals
How about everything we've been shown about elven ideals in action?
Or the very fact that elves know all too well who and what he is (again, Lafarallinn is their legend) and still see him as the ultimate embodiment of elvenkind?
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
The elves had been involved in a civil war that was long even by their standards. The Seldarine--and for that matter many elves--had had enough.
The consequences of the ritual were dire and sad, but the Crown Wars were ugly from all all angles.
And once the heretics were removed, it ended relatively quickly. "Whoops, the Seldarine suddenly realized Vyshaan are to blame for everything".
Which is why it does look like Aryvandaar was allowed to run as crazy as they want if crisis shapes the right way, and once there was no need, just rolled up like a dirty rug.
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Lolth's infleunce was spreading, and to stop it, the dark elves had to be cut off from the other elves, to prevent the spread.
Or what? Other elves would strive to emulate already abhorred Ilythiiri and serve Lolth who doesn't give much of a damn for them other than as an opening to spite her ex-husband?
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I believe there is hope for the drow, and perhaps the Seldarine are waiting to see what will happen.
Probably. But is there hope for the Seldarine?
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Tangent: I think it would be interesting if the part of Mystra that oversees magic and the Weave overlaps the part of Corellon that serves as an interface for elven high mages... meaning part of Mystra and part of Corellon (and part of every other cultural god of magic) is the same entity
I assume that he's Elven equivalent of Azuth: keeper of their traditions (such as High Magic, bladesong, dualism). The difference is that Corellon generally seems to do little about it, and most importantly, neither does the "madhouse warden" part of the job himself, nor keeps around anyone who would. Which is fine for Elven thinking, but doesn't work well for any parties involved (as in, being spanked is bad, but makes a better lesson than being allowed to vaporize your ass and everyone in shouting range). Said traditions (except bladesong, but that's just natural selection) happen to be in decline at best. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2015 : 04:53:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
-the thing that likely triggered the curse- was that some Ilythiiri worshipped Lolth.
This is something that I keep landing on, too.
The gold elves weren't innocent --the leaders of the Vyshaan were taking their orders from Malkizid-- but that wasn't widely known at the time. (Champions of Ruin 155)
So in the eyes of elfdom as a whole, the Ilythiiri were the only ones turning to dark powers. Corellon knew better, though... he'd already thrown Malkizid into the Hells while he was exiling Araushnee. He knew that both the Vyshaan and the Ilythiiri were being seduced by the lower planes.
Corellon may have been inclined to punish both the Ilythiiri and the Aryvandaarans, because both were falling to darkness. Some of the Seldarine's priests were demanding that the Crown Wars be stopped and others that the Ilythiiri be punished for their crimes against elfdom. It's inevitable that some were also asking for Aryvandaar to be dissolved, because it was the obvious aggressor in the Wars. But the methods of dealing with the two nations could logically be different. Aryvandaar could be curbed by sending avatars to strike some awe into all the elven nations and basically declaring the Wars over... the Vyshaan were evil and would rebel against the Seldarine's orders and thus galvanize the majority of elves against them in one monolithic force. Strategic strikes would dissolve the empire... this is what happens in the Fifth Crown War, between -9200 and -9000 DR. This gave Corellon the opportunity to spare the gold elven race (which he probably favored) while still placating the other elven nations; only the Vyshaan clan need be doomed.
The Ilythiiri, on the other hand, were deemed "too far gone" -- their leadership was no longer even remotely loyal to the Seldarine and wouldn't be impressed by their avatars even if they were compelled to attend the meeting. But in fairness, the same was true of the leaders of the Vyshaan; they would feign deference to the Elven Court's ruling but as soon as the avatars were gone and everyone returned home the Vyshaan would resume their campaign of world domination and the enslavement and destruction of all other races. The majority of the sun elves and dark elves alike were innocent, or at least they wanted the fighting to be over so they could get back to their previously peaceful existence. Their only sin was following the orders of their Coronals, just as the Seldarine expected them to do.
The prayers sought the end of the Crown Wars. The high mages were researching a spell to get rid of Ilythiir. The gold elves could be given a second chance. So Corellon made his choice. He cursed (or allowed the cursing of; the distinction doesn't really matter) the dark elves circa -10,000 DR, depriving the dark elves of representation and input at the Elven Court. This may have been an important concern because of Eilistraee... she would have put up an impassioned defense of her people as a whole; punish the followers of Lolth, fine, but not the innocents. She was a goddess, on more or less equal footing with Sehanine or Hanali, and she might have softened some hearts, perhaps even amongst the Seldarine. Corellon didn't want that.
Because the dark elves were the worse of two evils in his eyes. Because some of them served Lolth and he "wrote off" the whole race. The gold elves were spared, even though they instigated the Crown Wars and were doing the bidding of Malkizid, because... at least they weren't worshiping Lolth.
If we allow Corellon the nominal defense of having anger management problems, and consequently being heavy-handed and occasionally a bit brutal, then someone would have had to counsel him on this matter, particularly the option of punishing Ilythiir and the Vyshaan differently, and thus the Seldarine as a whole are implicated. One evil god, or a pantheon of evil gods.
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2015 : 10:58:03
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quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
He cursed (or allowed the cursing of; the distinction doesn't really matter) the dark elves circa -10,000 DR, depriving the dark elves of representation and input at the Elven Court. This may have been an important concern because of Eilistraee... she would have put up an impassioned defense of her people as a whole; punish the followers of Lolth, fine, but not the innocents. She was a goddess, on more or less equal footing with Sehanine or Hanali, and she might have softened some hearts, perhaps even amongst the Seldarine. Corellon didn't want that.
I see the points you raise in your post, but I don't agree on this one.
I don't think that -among the other things- Corellon wanted to cut off Eilistraee from the Seldarine, mostly because the Dark Maiden had already chosen exile from the Arvandor (so her words would have much less weight than -say- Sehanine's) and because, after the Dark Disaster, she basically was a non-factor at the time: her church was destroyed, most of her followers dead, she may have very well been just another powerful drow at that point. If her managing to soften some hearts was what Corellon wanted to avoid, cursing Eilistraee's followers (and her too, it seems) alongside the others wouldn't have accomplished much for that, since she could have put up a passionate defense of the dark elves as a whole anyway (and it's what she has done and does, but it doesn't seem to be working very well).
There's also the fact that, assuming that the myth is true, Corellon loved his daughter Eilistraee, so he wouldn't have wanted to directly harm her. Although I must say that it seems to be a very weird form of love, given that he -perhaps unwillingly, because things went wrong in the spell- metaphorically kicked her when she was in a desperate situation. Admittedly, it is likely that -upon knowing that her whole people was going to be condemned- Eilistraee chose to be cursed too, to be at their side in their suffering and be a light for all the drow -basically, to be one of them-. However, she surely didn't choose to have what few of her surviving followers cursed -especially not after the hardships that they had just faced- and that is where her father -unwillingly or not- kicked her).
quote:
If we allow Corellon the nominal defense of having anger management problems, and consequently being heavy-handed and occasionally a bit brutal, then someone would have had to counsel him on this matter, particularly the option of punishing Ilythiir and the Vyshaan differently, and thus the Seldarine as a whole are implicated. One evil god, or a pantheon of evil gods.
Idk. I've always thought that not only Corellon, but all the Seldarine shared a part of the guilt, but I wouldn't call them evil (I would be hesitant to call them good, though). Corellon and the Seldarine actually love and take care of the rest of the elves, and even good people can do horrible things. Granted, they usually regret that and try to repair the damage that they have caused, while Corellon & Co. are keeping their facade of ''justice'', and that is -I guess- mostly out of pride. It is hard to put a label that says ''evil'' or ''good'', because their actions are varied. In this case ''discriminators'', ''arrogant/blinded by pride'' and so on would be more adequate IMO.
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So in the eyes of elfdom as a whole, the Ilythiiri were the only ones turning to dark powers. Corellon knew better, though... he'd already thrown Malkizid into the Hells while he was exiling Araushnee. He knew that both the Vyshaan and the Ilythiiri were being seduced by the lower planes.
Indeed. Along with what I've posted in this thread before, that makes me highly doubt that the ''demon influence'' trickled down to the common Ilythiiri. Because why couldn't it be the same for the Aryvandaari, when we have two identical situations (leaders go full evil), and when we also have other records of gold elves breeding with demons (*cough* fey'ri *cough*), proving that they aren't ''above'' doing so. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 06 Apr 2015 13:48:04 |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2015 : 15:22:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I see the points you raise in your post, but I don't agree on this one.
I didn't mean that Corellon wanted to separate Eilistraee from the Seldarine or punish her; just that he would have anticipated (with a groan and eye roll typical of fathers dealing with teenaged daughters, and vice versa) her derailing the Elven Court into fluffy forgiveness of the dark elves' apparent soft-headedness toward Lolth and decidedly unfluffy deeds. (Eilistraee wouldn't have condoned Ilythiir's military actions either, but I think Corellon wrote off the entire race because of Lolth and thought "dark elves" when he should have thought "leaders of Ilythiir.")
I think he would have tried to find a way to keep her quiet that didn't involve publicly ordering his own daughter to shut the bleep up... which would have gotten him the "cold shoulder" treatment from the other goddesses (annoying because Corellon has a libido and no more wife) and potentially prevented him from getting the support that his ego craved. IMO this led him to want the dark elves (or at the very least Ilythiir) gone before the Elven Court meeting took place. If the fate of the dark elves was already settled and done, Eilistraee could be exhorted toward productive thoughts -- if she insisted on whining about the past, then she would be marginalizing herself from the rest of the Seldarine and Corellon's goals for the future would still garner support among the other gods.
I was looking at Corellon's (with counsel from Sehanine and maybe others) decision-making process, which would take place before the curse and the Elven Court. It could have been prior to the Dark Disaster as well. It makes sense that the Seldarine would have been aware of the Crown Wars by that point, and they may have been pondering ways to end it, and simply been finally pushed into acting by the public prayers circa -10,110 DR.
So the Dark Disaster had just happened when the Descent took place. Eilistraee was undoubtedly brokenhearted, but also undoubtedly furious. Perhaps inconsolable, perhaps irrational.
I don't think Eilistraee's power level should be considered lowered by the loss of her worshipers in the Dark Disaster; I stand by her comparability with the other goddesses in terms of personal power... she just possibly didn't have much of a following anymore. The dependence of deities on the strength of their following didn't happen until the TOT.
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Idk. I've always thought that not only Corellon, but all the Seldarine shared a part of the guilt, but I wouldn't call them evil.
Here I'm basing it on the declaration or assumption that the Ilythiiri and in fact all dark elves were irredeemable as an entire people -- the women, the children, the unborn proceeding generations... all were lost to Lolth and so evil that allowing them to remain on the surface and share legitimacy with other elves as elves would darken elfdom as a whole and quite possibly contaminate the Seldarine themselves. Melodramatic? Not really; all of that is necessary in order to really justify various aspects of the curse. Just the fact that a few individuals played nice with nasty things doesn't even begin to cover it, or else the entirety of the gold elven race would have to be transformed into drow as well.
The lack of care with which the curse was aimed, the lack of mercy for individuals who might have been claimed by Eilistraee, and so forth, makes whoever approved it evil.
So if the curse was somehow wrested from Corellon's control, say by Lolth, and he was originally intending the curse to only hit the leaders of Ilythiir, then the curse doesn't necessarily make him evil... he's just less of a god of magic than Lolth in that case. But how can that be? That argument raises a sticky question of how Lolth managed to change Corellon's magic, when Corellon's power was so much greater than hers that he could exile her and alter her physical form and there was nothing she could do about it. He's unquestionably on a higher order of magnitude than Lolth (at least at that point in time) so... it doesn't really work for her to control his power... unless maybe there was something like truenames or some other weirdness at work.
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Along with what I've posted in this thread before, that makes me highly doubt that the ''demon influence'' trickled down to the common Ilythiiri.
Agreed. The elves of Aryvandaar and Ilythiir, in general, were innocent of demon-worship and evil intent. Dark elves were damned by the actions of a few, and the jealousy of a god.
Hm weird. Sounds kinda Greek there.
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2015 : 15:45:24
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quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I see the points you raise in your post, but I don't agree on this one.
I didn't mean that Corellon wanted to separate Eilistraee from the Seldarine or punish her; just that he would have anticipated (with a groan and eye roll typical of fathers dealing with teenaged daughters, and vice versa) her derailing the Elven Court into fluffy forgiveness of the dark elves' apparent soft-headedness toward Lolth and decidedly unfluffy deeds. (Eilistraee wouldn't have condoned Ilythiir's military actions either, but I think Corellon wrote off the entire race because of Lolth and thought "dark elves" when he should have thought "leaders of Ilythiir.")
I think he would have tried to find a way to keep her quiet that didn't involve publicly ordering his own daughter to shut the bleep up... which would have gotten him the "cold shoulder" treatment from the other goddesses (annoying because Corellon has a libido and no more wife) and potentially prevented him from getting the support that his ego craved. IMO this led him to want the dark elves (or at the very least Ilythiir) gone before the Elven Court meeting took place. If the fate of the dark elves was already settled and done, Eilistraee could be exhorted toward productive thoughts -- if she insisted on whining about the past, then she would be marginalizing herself from the rest of the Seldarine and Corellon's goals for the future would still garner support among the other gods.
I was looking at Corellon's (with counsel from Sehanine and maybe others) decision-making process, which would take place before the curse and the Elven Court. It could have been prior to the Dark Disaster as well. It makes sense that the Seldarine would have been aware of the Crown Wars by that point, and they may have been pondering ways to end it, and simply been finally pushed into acting by the public prayers circa -10,110 DR.
So the Dark Disaster had just happened when the Descent took place. Eilistraee was undoubtedly brokenhearted, but also undoubtedly furious. Perhaps inconsolable, perhaps irrational.
I don't think Eilistraee's power level should be considered lowered by the loss of her worshipers in the Dark Disaster; I stand by her comparability with the other goddesses in terms of personal power... she just possibly didn't have much of a following anymore. The dependence of deities on the strength of their following didn't happen until the TOT.
Wow, that sounds truly nasty. I don't hesitate to hold Corellon (and the others, gods and priests alike with him) responsible for the mistake that the Descent was, but that premeditation and cruelty towards Eilistraee and her dark elves... Idk it seems a bit too much to me.
To me it looks like the curse mistakenly targeted all the dark elves, and Corellon/whoever didn't care and decided to let Eilistraee sort it (because -due to his pride/anger- in his mind -as you say- ''dark elf'' was the same as ''Lolth'' and he couldn't get to solve the problem himself), which doesn't make the situation any better, but at least doesn't make it sound as a premeditated and coldly calculated act (which would make Corellon -forgive me this expression- a frigging PoS).
On the last part, AFAIK at the time Eilistraee was a lesser goddess at best (patroness of dance, song, beauty, her worship mainly restricted to Miyeritar) her power far lesser than -say- Sehanine's or Hanali's, IMO her influence wasn't comparable to theirs (especially since she basically left the Seldarine in -30000DR, when Lolth betrayed Corellon). Perhaps she could have swayed some hearts, but to me it seems one of those cases where she would be considered biased/naive/shaken by the deaths of her people(?) and not taken seriously. But then, we can only speculate, since we don't really know anything about this side of the matter.
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The lack of care with which the curse was aimed, the lack of mercy for individuals who might have been claimed by Eilistraee, and so forth, makes whoever approved it evil.
Yes, it is an evil act, but -as I said- even good people can do evil acts. Their real guilt is to have not done anything to correct it, which -as I said- IMO is due to pride and anger.
On the other hand, the Seldarine's behaviour towards non-dark elves is that of good deities, so it isn't easy to apply clear cut labels here.
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 06 Apr 2015 15:49:59 |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2015 : 16:03:53
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| Oops, I forgot about Eilistraee already being out of the Seldarine by that time. That effectively removes the concern about her influence on the Elven Court meeting. |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2015 : 16:39:35
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I feel the need to point out: despite all of my participation in this thread, and my unrelenting and possibly growing blame of Corellon, I'm not angry and I'm not trying to blast anyone who defends the elves or the Seldarine. Anyone and everyone is welcome to chime in, regardless of where you stand. If I'm wrong, I want to be educated.
I just can't wrap my head around it being a simple "oops" without even the tiniest bit of deep burning evil. It doesn't work.
1. Best-case scenario, in terms of everyone being considered Good afterwards. The high mages devised the curse and cast it entirely on their own, aiming it just at the leaders of Ilythiir. Corellon simply rubber-stamped it. Something went wrong, and it spread to affect not only all of Ilythiir but all dark elves. The high mages made their absolute best efforts to fix it, and couldn't. The Seldarine made their absolute best efforts to fix it, and couldn't. Everyone got over it, because Ilythiir was a terrible neighbor and the drow quickly outdid themselves in the Evil department, and soon nobody wanted to think about them.
Why doesn't history contain even a single mention of repentant high mages trying to fix it?
Why were the high mages unable to fix it?
Why were the Seldarine unable to fix it?
Why was the practice of high magic allowed to continue, after it became clear that a possible completely unintended side effect of targeting a couple of evil-doers was damning their entire race to becoming drow?
Why is there no guilt for diminishing the beauty of the world and darkening the history of the elves by turning the supposedly-universally-evil dark elves into the much-closer-to-universally-evil drow?
2. As #1, but the Seldarine didn't try very hard to fix it.
If the Seldarine are Good, how could they so easily condone the damning of elven children?
3. As #1, but the spell required more than just Corellon's approval; the Seldarine had to empower it.
Given this increased role in the spell, how is it possible that several gods were unable to properly control and direct the curse?
Why was the practice of high magic allowed to continue, after it became clear that even gods can't control it?
Pride and anger, in doses sufficient to allow 100 generations of undeserved torture and suffering, is evil. And there's no basis for calling it deserved; newborn drow are not guilty of their ancestors' sins. They are punished for them, but they're not guilty. This darkens the Seldarine, whether they cursed the dark elves themselves or rubber stamped it or failed to correct it. Even being unable to fix it isn't an excuse because if magic was malfunctioning somebody should have appealed to Mystra and Ao.
One doesn't simply wait for the drow to redeem themselves; the fault doesn't lie with the drow. Whether one is a high mage or a priest or a god, one fixes ones mistakes... expending all of ones resources, and ones life if necessary, in the effort. If one is not Evil. |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2015 : 17:04:37
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| Although it's also possible that we've said all that can productively be said. We either agree or interpret it differently, and both are fine. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2015 : 17:36:26
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The Seldarine are indeed completely guilty for the errors and injustice committed by them, and their behaviour towards the dark elves does have evil in it.
But lets consider a hypothetical person. This person has a twisted kind of hatred/anger towards someone and (s)he does all in his/her power to make life hell for his/her ''hated one''. On the other hand, this person is generally beneficial to everyone that isn't the one (s)he hates. Would you say that this person is clearly evil? I wouldn't (because I don't feel that the good (s)he has done should be ignored or devalued), but I wouldn't label him/her as clear cut good either. I would definitely say that (s)he has problems and that his/her actions toward the poor guy are evil, and that (s)he must be held responsible and redeem him/herself for that, though. That's what I mean when I say that you can't slap a ''evil'' or ''good'' label on the Seldarine and then be done with it, the situation is more complicated than that, IMO. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 06 Apr 2015 18:04:31 |
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Corellon Must Die
