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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 30 Mar 2015 :  20:59:59  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I could get behind that. I'd love to see new novels about E and V. Or, at the very least, their followers, since that would be a route WotC is more likely to take at this point.

I'm a fan or Eilistraee and Vhaeraun too. I was as upset by their death as many others were. But I am also a big fan of Corellon, and I would be even more angered by his death than I was E and V's.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Kentinal
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4684 Posts

Posted - 30 Mar 2015 :  21:03:28  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthias


Actually, while killing off the whole frigging pantheon was pointless in principle, the way it was done - most likely chosen by the author of the trilogy herself - made things much worse.




Actually this idea that this was the author idea is false. It has been clear that WotC ordered the death of the deities. IIRC Lisa actually did post the best thing about writing about the deaths was the ability to provide some grey areas. That series was written to kill off a deity or two every book, because the 4th Edition design team did not want so many deities. You should also recall not only Drow lost deities.
As far as it goes when SKR worked for WotC on 3rd edition there was discussion about reducing the number of deities of the Realms. He did post at least one comment about that what 4th did was far beyond what 3rd edition team considered.

All in all I want to stress the idea of do not blame the author for the deity deaths. That was ordered from above. One might be free to review how the author complied with the order as to some factors, however not the deaths themselves.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 30 Mar 2015 :  21:05:27  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

As far as cursing their descendants, keep in mind that those descendants would be drow, and raised in drow society (taught to worship Lolth, hate elves, etc), so in a sense, the offspring are as "cursed" by their parents as much as they are the high magic ritual. This is of course where Eilistraee--and even Vhaeraun, to an extent--comes in to play. I think Eilistraee is in a sense a "reversal" to the curse. She is meant to lead the offspring into the light.

I don't think the Seldarine "pushed" the Ilythiiri towards Lolth--well, maybe they gave the final nudge with the ritual, but the Ilythiiri had already been turning to Lolth and other dark powers before the ritual was performed. By their actions during the Crown Wars, the dark elves doomed themselves as much as the ritual did.

I can see the events in LP being at least a start to the reversal. But they haven't been touched on since, so maybe I'm wrong.



That's the point. The curse itself was a bad punishment, they created the problem. Its like taking all the criminals, maniacs, killers and so on in this world and throwing them together on a island. Ofc you'll create a society were the descendants are victims of their parents' choices, you're dooming them (and -in the drow case- marking them as well). You'd expect a little more foresight from gods

Really, as I said, you can't expect the random commoner (i.e. the majority of people) in Ilythiir to be a dark powers-wielder (or power hungry dude) following Lolth's dogma, especially since the Ilythiiri worshipped a variety of gods (all the corruption thing was mainly the mages', priests' and nobles' doing, just like in Aryvandaar). So, insetad of steering people who have no competence in magics and little understanding of the ''dark powers'', they pushed them towards those entities (I've already explained why. The Seldarine turns their back to the drow, they are hated by other elves, they seek a guidance and only Lolth/Ghaunadaur/whoever are there, since Eilistraee was extremely weakened thanks to the Dark Disaster).

Also, how can Corellon count on Eilistraee to be the solution, when he does nothing to aid her, to dispel prejudices, to have her followers accepted by the elves. It seems very messed up. And Eilistraee made her choice on her own, decided to forge her own path independently from Corellon and the Seldarine. They didn't mean her to be anything (in fact Corellon didn't like her going away).

LP doesn't work, not even as a start. It worsen things, it misses the point by miles. The point is acceptance and choice, what Eilistraee fights for. Opening to her followers, changing the mentality, that's the start, not forcing (since it didn't allow any choice) a change upon them, a change they don't need and probably don't want, a change that can be interpreted by who is on the receiving end as ''we won't accept you unless you change what you are, so that we can like you''. At this point of the story -where ''drow'' is an identity and a people, not some magic- the curse removal should come later, and only for those who wish it. But it is a moot point, since it was actually Q'arlynd and his team who did the whole ritual thing. And -as you said- the fact that Corellon accepted the changed drow into Arvandor and then went back to his old self is telling.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 30 Mar 2015 21:27:19
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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 30 Mar 2015 :  21:33:38  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmm, point taken. Most drow probably hate Lolth--or at least fear her (particularly the males), but don't have much of a choice. It is dangerous to appear as anything other than a Lolthite. That's why it's so hard for E and V to gain followers in the Underdark. You have to be very careful about who you try and convert, lest you want your heart sacrificed to Lolth. This is likely why it's been so difficult for the siblings to gain significant ground.

However, it is my understanding that followers of Eilistraee are more accepted by elves than any other drow. Or rather, they're supposed to be. Sheverashans are supposed to spare Eilistraeens, but the Shevarashans often have cult-like behavior, and it would take a fanatic to worship him in the first place, so while they are supposed to spare them, one drow looks like any other to them, and they are the shoot first, ask questions later type. Why Corellon doesn't put a stop to this, well, I will admit I am confused about that, because it goes against his character.

Or maybe you're right, and pride at least has something to do with it. I love elves, but they are prideful, and most "present day" elves do not like to discuss the Crown Wars, because it is a dark stain in their history. It makes sense that their gods would be the same way. I'm not saying this is an excuse for their actions, but I don't think all the blame can be placed on Corellon, or that we should call him evil. I fully acknowledge that the Dark Disaster, and the Crown Wars in general, was a terrible event, but it doesn't make me hate the Seldarine or elves.

Whether the events in LP works or not, I would like to see where they were going with it. I would also like to see E and V's followers gain a foothold in drow society. This is one of the reasons I am a bit disappointed WotC is taking the "no more direct deity involvement" route. Sure, the main focus could be on Eilistraee's followers, but with something as big as what happened in LP, or, for that matter, a reversal of the curse, there would have to be some direct divine involvement. And Eilistraee was very actively involved with her followers, more so than a lot of deities.

Maybe the lesson to be learned here is that elves should stop doing high magic rituals, since they always seem to go awry, and just use "regular" magic.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Misereor
Learned Scribe

164 Posts

Posted - 30 Mar 2015 :  21:35:17  Show Profile Send Misereor a Private Message  Reply with Quote

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
The evil started as extreme warfare but under the baleful influence of various entities (Vhaeraun, Ghaunadaur, Lolth, Wendonai, etc) many of the Illythiiri began trafficing with and breeding with fiends from the outer planes.



I personally took another way out, and reverted to the standard formula for gods and their followers, namely that a sufficient number of followers going insane, changing alignment, being corrupted, etc can cause their god to go insane, become corrupted and so forth, and vice versa.

I have Araushnee's link with her followers becoming weakened by the "ultra-warfare" of the Crown wars and the effect it had on their spirits. This in turn permitted interlopers to interfere with them and further weaken her.

Being unfamiliar with the link to Unseelie magic that Baltas mentioned, I instead had a very powerful and hitherto unknown Primordial accidentally meld with her in a power struggle.

The primordials name? Simply "Spider". A being too alien for mortal comprehension, and forgotten even by it's own progeny untold ages before the Crown wars ever got started. Imprisoned by elder gods that predate even the Batrachi, and released by Araushnee in a desperate attempt to harvest it's power to save her followers and herself.

Seeing that the entire Elven race was in danger of becoming infected by the influence of the new Araushnee-Spider entity, Corellons "curse" was an attempt to cut off the limb and burn the stump in order to save the body. The Dark elves were changed, cast out, and chased underground, all in order to preserve the Elven body and spirit.

Of course there are always unforeseen consequences, even for Gods.
Araushnee eventually came to terms with her new self, determined to never again lose control of herself or her people, and so became Lolth, the utterly ruthless and chaotic being, with a twisted and scary, but quite recognizable Elven sense of humor. And in spite of the curse, many Dhaerow are still born with strong Elven traits, even though they are mostly subsumed by their environment.


</$0.02>


What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder, stronger, in a later edition.
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Irennan
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Posted - 30 Mar 2015 :  21:43:50  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout


Whether the events in LP works or not, I would like to see where they were going with it.



Well, if you read the answer that I've received by Chris Perkins when I wrote to him about Eilistraee, you'll have your answer. Their goal was to make Drizzt more special, by removing goodly/free drow, and they did that by turning Eilistraeens and some Vhaerunites into normal elves. The novels were commissioned to explicitly do that (even if now their thinking has changed). That's one among the various reasons why I feel so strongly about this matter. For once, I'd like to see those events left behind, as they really diminish Eilistraee and her ideals.

Also, I agree on Eilistraee's involvment with her followers. I would accept what Aldrick proposed in another scroll (her and other gods' only ''direct'' way to manifest being through her high priestesses, like she did while possessing Qilué), but I want a definite confirmation on her status and Vhaeraun's at least, given all the uncertainity, out of character-ness, and room left for Eilistraee actually having survived, perhaps aided by her father.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 30 Mar 2015 21:47:08
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Xanthias
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Posted - 30 Mar 2015 :  21:55:39  Show Profile Send Xanthias a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
True. I would be overjoyed to see Eilistraee and Vhaeraun getting over their past and starting anew together in a novel or novel cycle. For now, having them do that in my Realms/game will have to suffice, though.


Heh, my head spins at the very thought of such a journey. One or two novels would not be enough, no way. And a game centering around such a difficult change would be certainly exciting, no matter how long.

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

As far as cursing their descendants, keep in mind that those descendants would be drow, and raised in drow society (taught to worship Lolth, hate elves, etc), so in a sense, the offspring are as "cursed" by their parents as much as they are the high magic ritual.


Growing up in drow society is a huge factor, no doubt, but the curse ensures that the overwhelming majority of drow will have very little desire to seek a path different from the one Lolth pushes them toward. The ways of the Underdark are the only ones they have any extended exposure to. And what would make them believe light elves are any better than what they are exposed to since infancy? What actual proof do they have that Lolth is wrong, after what was done to them for something they weren`t even around to do? No, even the better light elves usually wait for the drow to... prove themselves better than their kin, or something. Because apparently being born a drow is a crime. This attitude helps keep the drow in Lolth`s web. It helps a lot.
I don`t know. Maybe the whole mess was supposed to add a bit of grey colour to Corellon... but to me, it just covered him in dirt from head to toe.


quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Actually this idea that this was the author idea is false.


Yes, the end point was determined by the bosses. But how she got there - was entirely the author`s doing.
Actially, I never fuss when characters I like are killed off properly. A fitting death can be awesome. But messing up the end of a character`s story with OOCness? Nooo way. That`s terrible writing.
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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 30 Mar 2015 :  21:58:32  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Right, I remember that post, but now that they're thinking has changed, I would like to see them do something with it, even if what they do changes it. Whether or not the "brown elf" move was a bad one or not, they should follow up in some manner. There has been no mention of them.

I remember that post, too, and manifesting in that manner would be better than nothing, but I too would like a definite answer on her and V's status.

I'm open to Corellon coming forth and saying he made a mistake, but labeling him as evil doesn't sit well with me, let alone killing him off. I might have to walk away from the Realms if that happened. Well, I probably would end up staying, as I stayed during 4e, but I would be -very- unhappy. The results of the Crown Wars were unsettling, and I can agree Corellon has done things that are outside his character. But he isn't the only god to do so. It has been shown time and again that gods make mistakes. Shar wanted to take control of the Weave, but her aiding in the killing of Mystra had disastrous and far-reaching results (Spellplague). Sounds like not even the gods can mess with magic, lol.

I would be overjoyed to see Eilistraee and Corellon (or at least their followers, since WotC is more likely to do it that way), working together.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Irennan
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Posted - 30 Mar 2015 :  22:25:03  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout


I would be overjoyed to see Eilistraee and Corellon (or at least their followers, since WotC is more likely to do it that way), working together.



I would like that too. And don't worry, WotC definitely isn't going to kill Corellon

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.
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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 30 Mar 2015 :  22:26:45  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If enough people ask for it they might, though WotC isn't good at listening to their fans

Sweet water and light laughter
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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 30 Mar 2015 :  22:29:26  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthias

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

As far as cursing their descendants, keep in mind that those descendants would be drow, and raised in drow society (taught to worship Lolth, hate elves, etc), so in a sense, the offspring are as "cursed" by their parents as much as they are the high magic ritual.


Growing up in drow society is a huge factor, no doubt, but the curse ensures that the overwhelming majority of drow will have very little desire to seek a path different from the one Lolth pushes them toward. The ways of the Underdark are the only ones they have any extended exposure to. And what would make them believe light elves are any better than what they are exposed to since infancy? What actual proof do they have that Lolth is wrong, after what was done to them for something they weren`t even around to do? No, even the better light elves usually wait for the drow to... prove themselves better than their kin, or something. Because apparently being born a drow is a crime. This attitude helps keep the drow in Lolth`s web. It helps a lot.
I don`t know. Maybe the whole mess was supposed to add a bit of grey colour to Corellon... but to me, it just covered him in dirt from head to toe.



I wouldn't say it dirties him head to toe, but maybe this is where the "chaotic" in "chaotic good" comes in? Chaotic creatures, whether divine or mortal, may be more inclined towards recklessness, and acting in the "heat of the moment". It doesn't make Corellon evil, but it is what keeps him from being lawful good.

And as it said in the quote I used from Lost Empires, the curse was meant to only affect those who had already turned, but it instead cursed all the Ilythiiri. Why Corellon didn't reverse it, I don't know. Maybe you have to use high magic to undo a spell by high magic, and we've all seen how well that works. Maybe Corellon was reluctant to try again, as it would likely cause another irreversible disaster.

I like drow, and I would like to see the Eilistraeens at least gain a greater foothold, and acceptance among the elves. If Corellon comes forward and does try to undo the events of the Dark Disaster--or make amends for it, at least--fine. I could get behind that, because it means more stories about elves, drow, and their gods.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Xanthias
Acolyte

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Posted - 30 Mar 2015 :  22:39:05  Show Profile Send Xanthias a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, Corellon admitting he did wrong and doing what he could to make amends would have been great, but after thousands of years? Even by elven standards thay`s way too late. And not likely anyway, since his attitude towards the drow has been very consistent.
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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 30 Mar 2015 :  23:41:07  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Araunshnee planned to attack not just Corellon, but Arvandor itself. Corellon had every right to banish her. The far-reaching consequences of the high magic ritual were unforseen even by him. Why he didn't reverse it, I don't know. Maybe, as I said earlier, it would take another equally powerful spell to undo the curse, andthat may have led to yet another consequence. With the Crown Wars, the elven race was on the verge of collapse, and the Seldarine had no choice but to intervene. After the Dark Disaster, Corellon made it clear to bis followers never to engage in this level of civil war again

In response to the OP, Corellon isn't going to punish an elf for worshipping a deity outside the Seldarine. Anelf is free to choose, but most will worship the Seldarine, just as most dwarves worship their pantheon. The punishment was meant to only target the Ilythiiri who had become corrupted and were adding fuel to the Crown Wars. It went horribly wrong. This is why I said earlier that Eilistraee is the solution. She can lead the drow into the light. The issue is, again as I stated earlier, that it is hard to appear as anything but a Lolthite in drow society. By the time of the Descent, Lolth already had a foothold on the drow (or those who had become drow). Maybe, after the events of the ritual, it was Corellon's hope that his daughter would be the redeeming factor, but because Lolth has gained such a tight hold on the drow, it is difficult for anyone other than Lolth to have any influence.

I apologize if I repeat myself. I have a tendency to miss things the first time I read posts, then I reread them and it makes me think.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Irennan
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Posted - 31 Mar 2015 :  00:02:17  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Before the Descent and when it happened the drow were far from being what they are now. They weren't brainwahsed like the modern drow, they weren't sacrificed for worshipping other deities and so on. It just wasn't the case that people had to conform to Lolth's dogma or die. In fact in Ilythiir the main faiths were Vhaeraun and Ghaunadaur (and -considering the polytheism of the Realms- I wouldn't even exclude the worship of some of the Seldarine). But we are walking in circles here, because it just isn't logical to expect farmers or commoners to be corrupted (remember that worshipping a deity doesn't mean that you have to commit to fulfill their goal. It could be akin to -say- worshipping Umberlee to not end drowned down the sea) and Lolth didn't have the influence that she has now.

Mistake or not, cursing the whole race (and -if a mistake- doing nothing to show some acceptance to those cursed by mistake or that could have remained) just gave her the perfect opportunity to build that influence, while at the same time Eilistraee couldn't do much because she was drained by the deaths of the majority of her people (and the survivors were cursed too, making things worse). And perhaps Corellon's had hope that Eilistraee could do something, but it wasn't something that he controlled (since she made her choice on her own initiative) and you can't just put such a burden on the shoulders of your (even mourning and weakened at the time) daughter and then be done with it (which basically is what happened, because for some reason Eilistraee has nearly 0 support from him).

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 31 Mar 2015 00:08:57
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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 31 Mar 2015 :  00:07:49  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I got the impression they were brainwashed. Many Ilythiiri had turned to dark powers (be it Lolth, Ghaunadaur, or another deity), before the Descent, and this in fact had a large infleunce on the Crown Wars, because the corrupted Ilythiiri now relished warfare. If anything, the biggest benefit on the Descent goes to Lolth. Now she has a stranglehold on her followers.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Irennan
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Posted - 31 Mar 2015 :  00:19:04  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

I got the impression they were brainwashed. Many Ilythiiri had turned to dark powers (be it Lolth, Ghaunadaur, or another deity), before the Descent, and this in fact had a large infleunce on the Crown Wars, because the corrupted Ilythiiri now relished warfare. If anything, the biggest benefit on the Descent goes to Lolth. Now she has a stranglehold on her followers.



Logically, who could turn to the ''dark powers''? What would a random person gain from giving themselves to -say- Lolth or Ghaunadaur and why would they do that? Who could even be interested in those ''powers''? The ones able to use them, i.e. mages and priests, and that means mostly nobles, rulers and so on (and their corruption has huge influences on wars, we even have examples in RW). A deity can be worshipped or payed respect to out of fear or in the hope to receive some favors/protection from certain things as well, not simply because you think that it is right to kill stuff or do evil things or because you want to follow their cause. For most people it is the former (I made the example of Umberlee).

Naturally the Descent empowered Lolth, it is the whole reason why she can now happily brainwash the drow into being her puppets. The drow escaping from their doom on the surface found ''sanctuary'' underground under Lolth's ''guidance'', giving her more influence (I guess with a sort of ''hey, she showed us the way, lets trust her'' sort of thinking -at the beginning-) and diminishing that of Vhaeraun and others, who were stronger in Ilythiir.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 31 Mar 2015 00:28:09
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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 31 Mar 2015 :  00:24:19  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't know why they turned to dark powers. Why does anyone turn to dark powers? But looking at the sources, (such as Lost Empires), the Ilythiiri were already corrupt before the Descent. That had been the original point of the high magic ritual--to punish those who had turned to Lolth and her allies. Unfortunately, it went beyond that.

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Irennan
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Posted - 31 Mar 2015 :  00:34:03  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

I don't know why they turned to dark powers. Why does anyone turn to dark powers? But looking at the sources, (such as Lost Empires), the Ilythiiri were already corrupt before the Descent. That had been the original point of the high magic ritual--to punish those who had turned to Lolth and her allies. Unfortunately, it went beyond that.



If you can use the Dark Powers, then it could ''make sense''. If you can't or their use is out of the scope of your interests, then why should you? For example, at most I could see common people asking for everyday favors and protections to dark gods, but that wouldn't make them more evil than a human praying Talona in the hope to avoid getting ill.

Also, as it was being discussed in another scroll, when history books (or in our cases sourcebooks) talk about big events, they use wide generalizations. Ilythiir being corrupted doesn't mean that the lowly dark elves were (or if they were, it would be something very minor, because they simply didn't have the tools, ability and motivations to have major contacts with such entities to become ''truly'' corrupted). Otherwise Aryvandaar would be too (at least all their soldiers), I mean they started the whole thing by attacking Miyeritar out of the blue just to conquer it.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 31 Mar 2015 00:43:33
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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 31 Mar 2015 :  00:44:46  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My best guess would be that Ilythiiri society at large had been corrupted, both mages and laymen alike. Perhaps the laymen converted out of fear (like many present day drow probably worship Lolth out of fear). Those who weren't corrupted weren't supposed to be affected by the curse, but they were, and why remains a mystery. Maybe it's not that Corellon didn't want to reverse, but that he couldn't, at least not without some other disaster likely taking place. What that would be I don't know, but something always backfires when high magic rituals are used on a large scale. *shrugs* it's just speculation, of course.

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Irennan
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Posted - 31 Mar 2015 :  00:59:55  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Present day drow don't worship Lolth only out of fear. They do because of that and because they are brainwashed/indoctrinated since their birth, and everything around there shows them that Lolth's lifestyle is the only possible, because she crafted their society so that would happen. Also any external influence, new ideas and so on are suffocated, leaving little room for the drow to expand their horizon and see Lolth's dogma for the BS that it is.

But -setting aside the Descent- the question is: what does it mean to be ''corrupted''. If you worship a deity out of fear, or if you do ''because they told me'' (you know, lipservice), that definitely isn't evilness or corruption (more like fear, or ignorance/stupidity), just like that human praying Talona so that he doesn't get some painful disease isn't evil or corrupted. If you swear yourself to the cause of a evil entity, or make pacts in exchange of powers and the such, then that is corruption - but the power to contact an entity and strike the deal, the understanding or even knowledge of the entity itself simply is beyond most. Granted there also mad people who decide to go out of their way and live following -say- Lolth's tenets and bringing suffering to the others, just because ''lulz, evil''. But those can be found everywhere and are a minority. Also, as I said, Lolth's faith wasn't established to embrace the whole society and there were multiple deities worshipped (and the kind of brainwashing that I described couldn't exist at all), so it doesn't look very likely that most were corrupted.

Someone made the example of WW2 Germany (yeah I know, the Godwin's law kicks in), where common people turned a blind eye to the horrors perpetuated by soldiers, rulers etc mostly out of fear or because they felt that they couldn't do anything (while a few tried to oppose it, and others embraced it -who would be akin to the mad lolthites that I named above-) and yet that society is judged as a whole. I think that Ilythiir was pretty much the same.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 31 Mar 2015 01:11:34
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 31 Mar 2015 :  01:05:47  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan


Logically, who could turn to the ''dark powers''? What would a random person gain from giving themselves to -say- Lolth or Ghaunadaur and why would they do that? Who could even be interested in those ''powers''? The ones able to use them, i.e. mages and priests, and that means mostly nobles, rulers and so on (and their corruption has huge influences on wars, we even have examples in RW). A deity can be worshipped or payed respect to out of fear or in the hope to receive some favors/protection from certain things as well, not simply because you think that it is right to kill stuff or do evil things or because you want to follow their cause. For most people it is the former (I made the example of Umberlee).



It's not a case of "hey, let's worship an evil deity!" as much as it is "okay, this is what we want, who is going to support us?" They weren't looking to be evil, most likely, they were just looking out for Number 1, and because what they wanted was dominance over others and such, Lolth responded.

Following an evil deity isn't about being evil. Following an evil deity is about having evil goals and/or an evil mindset -- whether or not you recognize that -- and finding a deity that will help/reward you.

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Eilserus
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Posted - 31 Mar 2015 :  01:22:30  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This don't mesh with rules, but story-wise, Lolth grants her priests terrible power, lots of it. And with Drizzt claiming he never saw anything on the surface approaching the magic of his people, I had always assumed they were magically superior to their surface kin. Not counting High Magic here. Really Corellon banishing the drow would have pushed them in droves to Lolth, because she did answer their prayers. She supposedly provided them "salvation" and showed them how to survive the horrors of the Underdark.

It's been distorted through the years, but when reading Homeland and Exile, it seems the drow consider themselves the only "good" race. I believe the priests know otherwise, but its a fiction they ruthlessly enforce to keep themselves at the top etc. Drow society is all a game, a web of lies spun together that keeps them all trapped.
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Irennan
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Posted - 31 Mar 2015 :  02:02:13  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan


Logically, who could turn to the ''dark powers''? What would a random person gain from giving themselves to -say- Lolth or Ghaunadaur and why would they do that? Who could even be interested in those ''powers''? The ones able to use them, i.e. mages and priests, and that means mostly nobles, rulers and so on (and their corruption has huge influences on wars, we even have examples in RW). A deity can be worshipped or payed respect to out of fear or in the hope to receive some favors/protection from certain things as well, not simply because you think that it is right to kill stuff or do evil things or because you want to follow their cause. For most people it is the former (I made the example of Umberlee).



It's not a case of "hey, let's worship an evil deity!" as much as it is "okay, this is what we want, who is going to support us?" They weren't looking to be evil, most likely, they were just looking out for Number 1, and because what they wanted was dominance over others and such, Lolth responded.

Following an evil deity isn't about being evil. Following an evil deity is about having evil goals and/or an evil mindset -- whether or not you recognize that -- and finding a deity that will help/reward you.



That is basically what I meant. They prayed to certain gods out of fear or asking for favor, just like -as I've said- humans do. But why would you assume that most commoners wanted to dominate others, looked for easy power (or had an ''evil'' mindset), therefore Lolth answered their prayers? Would you assume that most humans want those things and that Bane answers to them?

And if the ''evil'' mindset is mostly wanting to be the #1 and praying for it, then I'd say that a huge number of humans, elves, dwarves and so on would be considered corrupted and have the attention of dark deities. That desire happens to be quite common among people (and I don't see how getting their prayers answered would directly be a source of corruption, just like the human praying to Talona and making an offer to avoid illness wouldn't be considered corrupted if she decided to listen to the prayer).

I'm not saying that the Ilythiiri didn't worship evil deities, Im saying that this doesn't make most of them corrupted more than the humans praying also to evil deities, among all the others (which we know -since people are polytheists in FR- happens regularly, with various purposes, but frequently not ''evil''). I have a very hard time to believe that commoners prayed to such beings with intentions other than getting practical aid, or to show respect in order to not provoke their ire (fear) --again, just like commoners of other races--. I really can't see most of them embracing their dogma, and even less coming in direct contact with their servants, striking deals -i.e. becoming corrupted and deserving to be banished/punished/exiled- because they would have no compelling reason and no way to do that.


@ Eilserus I agree on that. Lolth was basically a savior to them because she was the only guidance, with the Seldarine rejecting them and Eilistraee being too weakened to really make the difference.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 31 Mar 2015 02:16:42
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xaeyruudh
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Posted - 31 Mar 2015 :  03:15:55  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Okay, somewhat biased here, being a fan of Corellon and the Seldarine in general.


I can understand that. I have favorites too. In spite of my tone, in the initial post and in probably all of my input in this thread, I'm not aiming to have Corellon axed in canon. That would be a stupid move on WotC's part, much like killing a bunch of dwarven gods was a stupid move. Actually I need to change the subject because otherwise talking about stupid moves and WotC in the same sentence is going to start another thread.

My point here at the start of this long post is that I'm not attacking you. I am attacking Corellon, but it's not necessarily even about him. I doubt the designers meant to make him look evil, callous, or any other negative adjective. I think the history writing was probably rushed, and some details were omitted which, if they'd been included, would have changed things. Also, I'm quite sure that the Descent was planned before the sourcebooks talking about it were started, and the designers were told "just make this happen."

The fundamental problem I have with the Descent is that transforming all dark elves into drow is evil. It just is. First, it makes zero sense that every single dark elf was a follower of Lolth or Ghaunadaur. They aren't even all evil after the Descent, even after being claimed and brainwashed by Lolth for going on 12k years... there's no way they were all evil beforehand. Remember that we're not talking about only the adults. We're talking about newborn infants too. "Three days old and already a priest of Ghaunadaur. We are so proud!" No. There were innocent dark elves. And they were damned right along with the bona fide priests of Lolth and Ghaunadaur... they were treated equally.

The nature and consequences of the curse were foreseen, even if the fact that it would hit every single dark elf wasn't. The spell was designed to turn them into drow and drive them underground, so the high mages don't get to claim ignorance about that, and neither does Corellon. The next generation was going to be born drow... regardless of the nature they might have had if they'd been raised on the surface, they would be twisted by the darkness and by the increased allure of the dark powers. It would have been significantly less evil for Corellon to have just struck dead all of the Ilythiiri high mages and priests who didn't serve the Seldarine. No offspring at all is less evil than tortured offspring. The curse is evil, and allowing it was evil, and empowering it was evil. There's just no way around that.

Whether the high mages knew that it would hit children, or non-residents of Ilythiir... I don't know or care whether they knew. The mages and priests who devised and/or prayed for the means of causing the Descent were evil, but evil elves aren't news. My crosshairs are on Corellon, and they belong there. As has already been stated, we can expect more from gods.

For starters, as the elven god of magic, it's not reasonable that he couldn't prevent or reverse the spell as it was being cast. Mystra resurrected herself, remade the Weave, and saved three cities in the time it took the Netherese enclaves to fall out of the sky... seconds. Corellon could have stopped the spell, but he chose not to. It's also unreasonable that he couldn't undo the spell afterwards. Mortals can't work magic that gods can't undo. He could have fixed it immediately, and he chose not to.

Your point that reversing it might have had other consequences is fair. It might have. But as one of your quotes shows, this was neither the first nor the last time that elven mages did something bigger than they should have. Consequences are of no concern to the elves, and if the gods reflect their worshipers then it's reasonable to think that their gods don't care about consequences either.

Which might be part of the problem.

Anyway... this isn't personal against you, or even necessarily against Corellon. As written, he's just evil... and more deserving of termination than any of the other gods TSR/WotC have killed off.


quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

As for the Crown Wars...that was a dark time in elven history, to say the least. It makes the elves and their gods look evil, I can agree to that.


A. It was a troubling time, where many evil acts were committed by many good elves (and gods).
B. It was an indication of who the elves (and the Seldarine) truly are, although scattered good deeds have been committed by elves since that time.
C. ??

It's a matter of perspective, and each of us is largely on our own to interpret the history and decide for our own games.


quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

The Ilythiiri were turning to dark powers, like Lolth and Ghaunadaur.


On an individual basis, sure. I haven't seen it stated anywhere in canon that every single citizen --or even just the adults-- of Ilythiir was channeling evil powers.


quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Although the conclave had intended to punish only the Ilythiiri, the ritual altered all the dark elves of Faerun except those who had already altered their own forms... why all dark elvs, and not just the Ilythiiri, were transformed into drow remains one of the enduring mysteries of the Descent.


Even if it was intended to only encompass Ilythiir... there were innocent Ilythiiri, so that's still evil.

This error, if it was an error, is a critical fumble on an unfathomably horrible scale. It's like accidentally killing every single person of Iraqi descent, everywhere in the world, regardless of their past deeds and future potential, when we're aiming only for Saddam and his lieutenants. It's not a "mystery" -- it's an unforgivable sin. I mean sure, investigate what happened, but it's more important to fix it. I'm not criticizing you, or your word choice; I think "mystery" conveys the elven attitude toward it, even if that's your word and not a quote. I'm aiming at the "eh, whatever" attitude exhibited by the elves and the Seldarine following what is unquestionably the worst event in their history in Faerun... and it was something they perpetrated upon their own kin. And they just... don't... care.

Regret? I don't see it. Not a single person begging Corellon and his priests to undo it has made it into the history books. And given how much everyone hated Ilythiir, it's unreasonable to think that somebody asking for the drow to be turned back into dark elves would go unnoticed. There'd be another entry somewhere saying "Drow-sympathizers working toward the reversal of the Dark Descent were exiled or put to death."


quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Some of the more humble elf theologians believe it was an unintended consequence of the sort that always seems to occur when the Fair Folk overreach themselves in the application of High Magic"


Not humble enough to stop overreaching, though. Nope, I don't buy it. 10k years later, elves are still arrogant, elitist, and (as recently as the last action committed by the Eldreth Veluuthra) rabidly racist.


quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

I don't think Corellon is evil, and I don't think he should die (for one thing, I'm tired of them killing off gods).


Point taken regarding killing off gods, but I stand by the idea of sacrificing Corellon in some extraordinarily painful fashion instead of killing off however many deities got axed in 4e.


quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

One may wonder why the Seldarine didn't reverse the mistake right away, but the gods don't work on the same level or speed as mortals.


"Uh, Corellon, sir..."
"What now?"
"Um... something terrible has happened."
"Something? Can you be more specific? And stop saying um, it makes you sound like your Int score is 6, and that would make me the guy whose priests have Int scores of 6."
"Very sorry, sir, but... the magic went awry."
"I know that. You think I don't know that? Magic is one of my things."
"Yes, sir, but... all those children!"
"What? What children?"
"Every dark elf, everywhere, was transformed... not just their priests and mages, and not just in Ilythiir."
"Uh... what?"
"All of them, sir. Even the children... there must be thousands of them. We have no idea what went wrong, or why. Perhaps Araushnee, sir?"
"Lolth. There is no Araushnee. I'm quite sure I ordered all of you to never speak that name again."
"Very sorry, sir. I... I just... can you undo the magic?"
"Yea, hang on."
<Ctrl-Z>
"There. That should do it."
"Thank you so much, sir. You're the awesomest."
"Pft. Of course."
"We'll need another way to stop the Ilythiiri mages and priests, sir."
"Yea, yea, I'll work on it."
"I'd like to remind you, sir, that I don't usually ask for this, but... could you hurry?"
"Get out."
"Yes, sir."
"Hopefully Angharradh didn't see that... she'd have my head!"
"Yes, sir."
"Are you still here? Go do mortal things."
"Yes, sir."
"Good."
"Just one more thing, sir... you said 'uh.'"
"I will cut you."



quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

But to me, it seems like not even Corellon foresaw the results of the high magic spell.


My answer to this is kinda like what I told my dad when he asked what he should have done, in place of the abusive things he did.

"I know you don't have all the answers, but you chose to become a parent. It became your responsibility to know. If and when you screw up, it's on you. Stop trying to put it on me."

There was more for dad, and there's more for Corellon too. But that's the gist of it.


quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

I think the Crown Wars was a bit of "tough love" on Corellon's part. The elves were his children, and they had dug themselves into a hole, and he wanted to see if they could get themselves out of it. Instead, they just kept getting deeper, until they were on the verge of self-destruction. The only way to save them was to take extreme measures. It worked, but it had unintended consequences.


The Crown Wars, okay. I'll buy tough love, though letting tens of thousands of them slaughter each other and taint national/racial relations for millennia to come is a little more severe than making a lazy 18-year old move out and pay for his own stupid cigarette and beer addictions.

The curse was a whole different beast, though. Also, it did not end the Crown Wars -- and I suspect it wasn't intended to, since the curse was aimed at Ilythiir while Aryvandaar was the primary aggressor in the Crown Wars since the beginning. If anything, the curse was intended to remove Ilythiir (Aryvandaar's most powerful/damaging rival?) from the picture so that Aryvandaar could continue to expand with less interference. If that's correct, then the Descent was intended to make life worse for all elves, and it becomes weirder that Corellon would give Aryvandaar this advantage... unless of course he was rooting for the gold elves to subjugate all the other races all along. He just gets eviler and eviler.


quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

As far as cursing their descendants, keep in mind that those descendants would be drow, and raised in drow society (taught to worship Lolth, hate elves, etc)


The descendants would be drow because of the curse. They would be raised in drow society and brought up to be evil as a result of the curse. This is just reinforcing what a wretched and evil idea the curse was.


quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

By their actions during the Crown Wars, the dark elves doomed themselves as much as the ritual did.


Respectfully, this doesn't hold water -- not even a damp spot. Individual dark elves had turned to Lolth, Ghaunadaur, and whoever else, for whatever reasons. Those dark elves could have been dealt with, either in the course of the Crown Wars or by divine intervention or a mix, without cursing/transforming the entire race. Nothing the Ilythiiri did holds a candle to the evil done to them, because the evil they committed was small-scale. Even burning forests... individual elves did that, and those individuals might have been successfully opposed or assassinated before they were able to commit those acts, if someone had been more attentive. Even when the Ilythiiri slaughtered innocents in their attacks on the other elven nations, it never affected every member of an entire race, and they never killed off any nations in one shot.

Nothing the Ilythiiri did to anyone else is on the same order of magnitude as the divinely sanctioned high magic that doomed every single member of the dark elf race, everywhere on the planet, for all time.

Again, nothing personal against you CorellonsDevout, or against anyone else. The well of evidence against Corellon is deep, though.

Edited by - xaeyruudh on 31 Mar 2015 03:21:19
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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 31 Mar 2015 :  04:28:57  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Xaeryuudh: first of all, thank you for not attacking me. I appreciate it, and I understand your passion, even if I don't agree with all of it. I'm not going to quote you with block quotes, because, to be honest, I'm not very good at doing them ^^;

To start, the history of the Crown Wars could very well have been rushed, as you said, or at least the execution of it was. The producers could have plotted it for months, but the printed material only goes in to so much detail. I've noticed sourcebooks often do that. They'll briefly go in to something, but then end the paragraph and go on to something else. There have been several times where I've been like "what, tell me more about X!" Maybe we're not meant to know exactly what happened, because I don't think the elves do, either. A lot of what actually happened in the Crown Wars has been lost. This isn't an excuse, but maybe the lack of information for readers/players is likely a reflection of the lack of info for the elves. They don't know, so we aren't supposed to. *shrugs*

Back to the main argument. I agree that elves, much as I love them, can be jerks (I'm using jerk in place of a word that is inappropriate here), particularly sun elves. The Ilyhiiri and the Vyshaan, who were sun elves and part of Aryvandaar, were the main culprits of the Crown Wars. The Vyshaan were punished, though I will agree it wasn't to the scale as the Ilythiiri. The word vyshaan is used as an insult and curse by present-day elves.

The "tough love" comment I made is, yes, very different from a parent kicking out a rebellious teen, but gods do everything large scale. Corellon wanted to see if the elves could work out the dispute themselves, and obviously, they couldn't. The original intent of the ritual was to curse only those Ilythiiri corrupted, or, to use a less-loaded word, those who worshiped Lolth or other dark powers. Whether the Ilythiiri were evil in the true sense of the word, they were evil enough to have turned not only from the Seldarine, but their elven cousins, and were adding fuel to the fire in the Crown Wars. The high magic ritual went wrong, and cursed every Ilythiiri. The biggest beef people have here with Corellon is that he did nothing to fix it, right? Maybe he could have fixed it, since, as you pointed out, the gods should be able to undo any spell mortals perform. I'm wondering if the curse of the drow was, in a twisted way, a curse on Corellon, too. In the final push towards Lolth, the dark elves became hers, and became powerful and formidable enemies. They go on surface raids, and have gained unique powers. I realize this sounds far-fetched, but maybe the punishment for both Corellon and the elves is that they have to face this "mistake". I could be splitting hairs here, but I've thought about this a lot. After the Crown Wars, the Seldarine wanted to ensure the elves didn't have another catastrophe like the Crown Wars, so the elven nations united, and, IIRC, formed what would become the Elven Court. Though, if we go with my wild idea about the drow becoming the punishment, then the Crown Wars have never really ended, and both elves and the Seldarine have to live with that shame, and face the fact that those they cursed are now among their most powerful enemies. Corellon didn't get further punishment because he didn't need it. He has to watch the curse come back to bite his children in the form of dark elven blades.

I like drow. I grealyt enjoyed the WotSQ and LP books, even if I didn't like the ending. But I also like the elves and Corellon. There was a point in time when the only FR books I read featured drow or elves. I still think Eilistraee is meant to be the solution, and the "remedy" to the curse, though as Irennan pointed out to me, that puts a lot of pressure on her, and she can't do it by herself. I don't think Corellon is evil, not in the way Lolth, Bane, or Shar are. He just...might not have the best foresight, shall we say.

Sweet water and light laughter
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xaeyruudh
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Posted - 31 Mar 2015 :  05:08:58  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yea, it occurred to me while I was writing that Lolth may have twisted/amplified the curse in a grab for the dark elven race as a whole. She already had her claws in some of them, but causing the entire race to feel rejected by the Seldarine would set things up so that she could swoop in and "rescue" them. This creates a loophole for Corellon, where he couldn't foresee the consequences or stop the spell because it wasn't really him who was in control of it. It also means that in order to undo the high magic, Corellon would have to acknowledge he lost control of the spell... to Lolth... even though he's the god of magic. We all know a mortal elf would be unable to muster enough humility to admit a shortfall like that. Undoubtedly it's easier for Corellon to sweep the transformation of innocent dark elves under the rug, rather than admit to the egg on his face and wipe it off. Callous. Uncaring. Vain. Weak. Despicable. Evil... but your point about the magnitude of this sort of evil is totally valid; it's not evil with the aim of being evil. It's just evil-by-incompetence. And poor taste in women. Think with the head on your shoulders Corellon... you should have learned that lesson in high school.

Another interesting possibility, getting "out of the box" of novels and digging into D&D lore, is that Araushnee and Corellon had each other's truenames, or the divine equivalent. This could give Lolth the ability to twist Corellon's magic (maybe not make him cast something, but once he started she could alter it) and it also goes a long way toward explaining how Corellon was able to banish Araushnee so effectively and twist her physical body as well. Plus, drawing on Lolth's later fiddling with the demon weave or shadow weave or whatever it was (haven't read that one either) it's clear that she knows a thing or two about magic so it's not hard to give her the expertise to twist and "widen" Corellon's curse to apply to all dark elves.

Any of these loopholes/handwaves is reaching, but it's certainly not the furthest a novel has ever reached.

Also, I agree that Corellon isn't the same brand of evil as Shar. I hadn't really thought about him much before I got into this thread, so it's interesting to see him cast as heavy-handed, quick to anger/judge, and other mortal traits that make him utterly unfit to be a god, let alone the head of a pantheon. Woops, was that another swipe at him? I think it was. My bad.
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CorellonsDevout
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Posted - 31 Mar 2015 :  13:42:04  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Have you read Evermeet: Island of Elves by Elaine Cunningham? It gives a good history of the elves, the first part being about Corellon and Lolth's treachery. It's a good read. I like how Cunningham writes about elves.

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TBeholder
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Posted - 01 Apr 2015 :  08:54:25  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

In my Realms the Descent wasn't a curse that affected appearence (I've never liked the ''oh you're evil, so now I paint you black, that'll do, lulz'' part. The dark elves are the same as drow, while elves can be dark skinned just like humans). It severed the emotive-physiological bond that encompasses all elves (according to what I've read in Cormanthyr) and the drow were simply marked as traitors to be exiled and hunted. They however still have this sort of bond among each other, even if drastically suppressed by the kind of life they lead.

I see two problems with this:
1) Elves are not hivemind, they mostly "play pretend" hivemind when feeling inadequate.
Or there won't be much of assassinations, and... Crown Wars.
2) You're using those newly invented wheels of your chariot to run down someone else's straw men here.
The curse obviously couldn't have change in appearance as the primary effect in the first place. Simply because the changes run much deeper than that, while can be masked with any disguise spells.
It indeed changed their nature as magical creature (which is what gives most elves innate ability to create tele-empathic links), and effect on the looks is secondary or tertiary. Which is supported by drow skin color changing from sunlight exposure in ways abnormal for red-blooded humanoids.
In other words, it seems to be a result of the same changes that give them affinity to radiation magic. And depends on these closely enough to be visibly affected when this system is disrupted.
So the goals of the curse (either of which already have both strategically sensible reason and possibility of a nasty backfire) would be:
  • Force them to hide underground.
    How: increase their sensitivity to light! And it worked.
    ...what do you mean "with what other radiations they may interact easier now?.. Oh, dung.

  • Deny them HM.
    How: make them incompatible with old Elven methods! And it worked.
    ...what do you mean "to what state they'll be pushed from here"? Aren't only the Elves glorious enough to get speshul overpowered magic?.. Oh, dragondung.

quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo

I've always seen Corellon as a god who takes far too harsh a standpoint on perceived betrayal - I would roleplay him as a god that encourages good but isn't actually good himself

Or maybe "good... when he feels like it".
quote:
That's why, in my personal Realmslore, he needs a counterbalancing force like Sehanine/Angharradh to get him to calm down

Again, inventing wheels. He is like this, and Hanali Celanil once demonstrated to him his own hypocrisy in this matter, and it's a huge non-secret - the story of Lafarallinn is what elves tell to their young.
I know of no reason to consider it non-canon. While Monster Mythology where it appeared isn't a FR sourcebook, Elves of Evermeet mentions Lafarallinn's body in the Hall of the Ancients (!).

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

In Evermeet: Island of Elves, when Araunshnee was cast out of Arvandor, because she sought to betray the Seldarine, and had enlisted other dark gods to help, Eilistraee chose to be cast out as well, to be the "balance", and bring the dark elves back to the light. Corellon was reluctant to let her do this, as he loved his daughter.

That is, it's what the elves tell to nosy humans and maybe each other. Which is... uh, yeah.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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Irennan
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Posted - 01 Apr 2015 :  10:35:17  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

I see two problems with this:
1) Elves are not hivemind, they mostly "play pretend" hivemind when feeling inadequate.
Or there won't be much of assassinations, and... Crown Wars.


I know. The severing of that bond was meant to deprive the drow of (what I feel is) the main distinctive trait that makes an elf part of the elven people (not from a magic standpoint, but from a ''you are no longer part of a people'' standpoint), further damaging relations between the two sides of the war, but also as a sort of symbol. The other part of the curse would be the exile, and being hunted by other elves (but this would be mundane, not induced by magic). I wanted to make it more mundane and less ''original sin that reflects on your skin''.

quote:

2) You're using those newly invented wheels of your chariot to run down someone else's straw men here.


I didn't mean to diminish Geroge Krashos' take at all, in fact I like it. I just wanted to share my take. My apologies if my statement came off as dismissive.

quote:

The curse obviously couldn't have change in appearance as the primary effect in the first place. Simply because the changes run much deeper than that, while can be masked with any disguise spells.
It indeed changed their nature as magical creature (which is what gives most elves innate ability to create tele-empathic links), and effect on the looks is secondary or tertiary. Which is supported by drow skin color changing from sunlight exposure in ways abnormal for red-blooded humanoids.
In other words, it seems to be a result of the same changes that give them affinity to radiation magic. And depends on these closely enough to be visibly affected when this system is disrupted.

So the goals of the curse (either of which already have both strategically sensible reason and possibility of a nasty backfire) would be:
  • Force them to hide underground.
    How: increase their sensitivity to light! And it worked.
    ...what do you mean "with what other radiations they may interact easier now?.. Oh, dung.

  • Deny them HM.
    How: make them incompatible with old Elven methods! And it worked.
    ...what do you mean "to what state they'll be pushed from here"? Aren't only the Elves glorious enough to get speshul overpowered magic?.. Oh, dragondung.




If the skin color change merely is a collateral consequence, then I could get behind it. But -correct me if I'm wrong- many sources (LEoF, for example) say that the skin change is one of the main intended results, to ''reflect the evil'' of the drow, or something along those lines. This and the other things you pointed out are the reason why I prefer -as I said- to downplay the magical side of the curse and turn it into something more like a mark, or a judgement.



Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 01 Apr 2015 10:41:27
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TBeholder
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Posted - 01 Apr 2015 :  13:06:42  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

and that the definition of ''horror'' becomes pretty loose in a War where so many of the participants unleashed dark or destructive powers, killing and devastating without discrimination (basically, to use your example, no longer a situation of ''Nazis'' vs ''Allies'', but a situation of different degrees of ''Nazis'').

Uh... Learning history from schoolbooks?
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

The problem with that is that it wouldn't make sense for Eilistraee to sacrifice for that. I mean, it would diminish her and her goal.

It's one of many, many things that don't make sense with this plotline - and LP in general. Was discussed here.
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

Just imagine Jesus saving only like 20% of mankind

Uh... Did you ever read this?
Because it look like the teaching in question had an intended area of applicability - much like, for example, everything else.

quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

The severing of that bond was meant to deprive the drow of (what I feel is) the main distinctive trait that makes an elf part of the elven people (not from a magic standpoint, but from a ''you are no longer part of a people'' standpoint), further damaging relations between the two sides of the war, but also as a sort of symbol.
Yes, but it still comes across as not just closing the barn after the cows ran away, but loudly chasing the cows out of the barn after they ran away.
I realize that elves have a big pathetic self-centered streak, but that's over the top.
quote:
quote:
2) You're using those newly invented wheels of your chariot to run down someone else's straw men here.

I didn't mean to diminish Geroge Krashos' take at all, in fact I like it.
I just wanted to share my take. My apologies if my statement came off as dismissive.

And here i thought "inventing the wheel" and "straw men" cannot be misunderstood.
Without metaphors - you're trying to get rid of something that was stretched to drag the issue under American OMGRACIST!!1 tongue-flail-fest in the first place.
And you "solve" this problem in a way that is redundant due to being a part of canon already - elven bond is a part of their magical nature, changing which (if in a much broader sense) already was heavily hinted to be the whole point.

quote:
quote:
The curse obviously couldn't have change in appearance as the primary effect

If the skin color change merely is a collateral consequence, then I could get behind it. But -correct me if I'm wrong- many sources (LEoF, for example) say that the skin change is one of the main intended results, to ''reflect the evil'' of the drow, or something along those lines. This and the other things you pointed out are the reason why I prefer -as I said- to downplay the magical side of the curse and turn it into something more like a mark, or a judgement.

LEoF also says it was to "cast out of Corellon's favor" - and -especially at the point when he approved such a measure - this practically means removing some "gifts" associated with his portfolio. Which points at Elven magic.
As to the mark, "I'll make you look outside like you are inside!" is a classical "screw you" move for a tsundere witch like Circe slapping a village lout, but for magically strong civilizations something so easily masked isn't worth much efforts. And in this case they would pay utmost attention to limiting it to those they dislike, because other dark elves are the only ones from whom the damned ones have to be discerned - it's not like they could be mistaken for Goldies... without the sort of disguise that works either way.
Thus, this purpose had to be thrown in as an afterthought, or even added retroactively.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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